Correct, a Bylaw alone is not sufficient. What is needed is a way to
ensure that if the Board does not follow its Bylaws, the community can
take action. Whether that means we can overturn a Board action or force
an action (in the case of inaction), remove part or all of the Board,
have clear standing to take them to court, or some other remedy or
combination of remedies is what we are here for.
Alan
At 31/01/2015 01:05 PM, Robin Gross wrote:
I think we'd need more than a
bylaw amendment because the problem is at the level of the
enforcement of the bylaws. For example Annex A in ICANN's
bylaws describes the way GNSO policy must be made in a bottom-up
fashion. The existence of the bylaws has not stopped the staff from
changing GNSO policy and the bylaws have not stopped the board from
looking the other way when staff does. We need those bylaws
enforced and it is the board's job to do that.
So I do not believe a bylaw amendment on its own is sufficient to provide
the assurance that the bylaws will be enforced.
Robin
On Jan 30, 2015, at 7:37 PM, Paul Rosenzweig wrote:
I
agree Robin. So then what is your view on a Bylaw amendment as a
commitment with teeth/inevitability? Prior to this discussion, I
was of the view that changing the Bylaws was both a necessary and
sufficient condition to satisfy a WS1 requirement. Now I see that
we have at least one case scenario where a Bylaw mandate has gone
unexecuted for years, despite e.g. the
failure being called out in ATRT1 and ATRT2. This makes
me concerned that one could, hypothetically, change the Bylaws to require
our new membership organization, or the redress mechanism that is my own
focus, have the Bylaw passed and written in stone and still not see the
actual membership or redress change take effect because ICANN as an
institution slow-walks the change. This makes me want to consider
strongly whether our phrasing in WS1 of “implemented or committed to” is
too loose and ought not to be changed to “implemented” ….
Paul
**NOTE: OUR NEW ADDRESS -- EFFECTIVE 12/15/14 ***
509 C St. NE
Washington, DC 20002
Paul Rosenzweig
paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com
O: +1 (202) 547-0660
M: +1 (202) 329-9650
Skype: +1 (202) 738-1739 or paul.rosenzweig1066
Link to my PGP Key
From: Robin Gross
[
mailto:robin@ipjustice.org]
Sent: Friday, January 30, 2015 4:19 PM
To: Accountability Cross Community
Subject: Re: [CCWG-ACCT] The big test of effective
accountability
I interpret WS1 as those items for which more than mere promises have
been made to implement, but rather items where commitments that have some
teeth (or inevitability) are in place, such that they couldn't be left
lingering indefinitely.
Robin
On Jan 30, 2015, at 12:39 PM, David W. Maher wrote:
- +1
- David W. Maher
- Senior Vice President – Law & Policy
- Public Interest Registry
- 312 375 4849
-
-
- From: Jonathan Zuck
<JZuck@actonline.org>
- Date: Friday, January 30, 2015 2:30 PM
- To: Paul Rosenzweig
<
paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com>, "'McAuley,
David'"
<dmcauley@verisign.com>,
'Accountability Cross Community'
<
accountability-cross-community@icann.org>
- Subject: Re: [CCWG-ACCT] The big test of effective
accountability
-
- Indeed
- Sent from my Windows Phone
- From:
Paul
Rosenzweig
- Sent: 1/30/2015 3:29 PM
- To: 'McAuley, David';
'Accountability
Cross Community'
- Subject: Re: [CCWG-ACCT] The big test of effective
accountability
- Thank you David for that explanation. To be candid it only
heightens my view that the accountability measures the community wants
need to be both committed to and actually implemented in place before the
IANA transition occurs.
-
- Paul
-
- **NOTE: OUR NEW ADDRESS -- EFFECTIVE 12/15/14 ***
- 509 C St. NE
- Washington, DC 20002
-
- Paul Rosenzweig
-
paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com
- O: +1 (202) 547-0660
- M: +1 (202) 329-9650
- Skype: +1 (202) 738-1739 or paul.rosenzweig1066
-
Link to my PGP Key
-
- From: McAuley, David
[mailto:dmcauley@verisign.com]
- Sent: Friday, January 30, 2015 1:42 PM
- To: Paul Rosenzweig; 'Accountability Cross Community'
- Subject: RE: [CCWG-ACCT] The big test of effective
accountability
-
- That is how the DCA Trust IRP panel seemed to see it, Paul.
-
- Bylaw Art. IV, Section 3.6 says this:
-
- There shall be an omnibus standing panel of between six and nine
members with a variety of expertise, including jurisprudence, judicial
experience, alternative dispute resolution and knowledge of ICANN's
mission and work from which each specific IRP Panel shall be selected.
The panelists shall serve for terms that are staggered to allow for
continued review of the size of the panel and the range of expertise. A
Chair of the standing panel shall be appointed for a term not to exceed
three years. Individuals holding an official position or office within
the ICANN structure are not eligible to serve on the standing panel. In
the event that an omnibus standing panel: (i) is not in place when an IRP
Panel must be convened for a given proceeding, the IRP proceeding will be
considered by a one- or three-member panel comprised in accordance with
the rules of the IRP Provider; or (ii) is in place but does not have the
requisite diversity of skill and experience needed for a particular
proceeding, the IRP Provider shall identify one or more panelists, as
required, from outside the omnibus standing panel to augment the panel
members for that proceeding.
-
- It is open to some interpretation because it instructs how to choose
a panel if a standing panel is not in place. A reasonable (to me)
interpretation of the provision is that the alternative way of selecting
a panel is for those cases prior to a standing panel being stood up. But
it has been years and the introductory language to the bylaw is: “There
shall be …”
-
- Here is the full paragraph of what the DCA Trust IRP panel said in
the procedural ruling in August:
-
- 114) The need for a compulsory remedy is concretely shown by ICANN’s
longstanding failure to implement the provision of the Bylaws and
Supplementary Procedures requiring the creation of a standing panel.
ICANN has offered no explanation for this failure, which evidences that a
self-policing regime at ICANN is insufficient. The failure to create a
standing panel has consequences, as this case shows, delaying the
processing of DCA Trust’s claim, and also prejudicing the interest of a
competing .AFRICA applicant.
(
https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/irp-procedure-declaration-14aug14-en.pdf
)
-
- To be fair, this was an interim ruling by a single panel and ICANN
would most assuredly not agree with this decision.
-
- To your question, regarding “failed to implement,” I would say failed
so far. I think Avri’s term “lingering” is a good one – this is lingering
so far.
-
- David
-
- From: Paul Rosenzweig
[
mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com]
- Sent: Friday, January 30, 2015 11:45 AM
- To: McAuley, David; 'Accountability Cross Community'
- Subject: RE: [CCWG-ACCT] The big test of effective
accountability
-
- David
-
- Can you elaborate on this please? This is the first instance
I’ve read of in which it is said that ICANN failed to implement a Bylaw
mandate. Is that a fair description? Because if it is, that
suggests to me the possibility that even a Bylaw change might not be
adequate to satisfy accountability requirements until the bylaw as
actually implemented.
-
- Or am I misreading what you are saying?
- Paul
-
- **NOTE: OUR NEW ADDRESS -- EFFECTIVE 12/15/14 ***
- 509 C St. NE
- Washington, DC 20002
-
- Paul Rosenzweig
-
paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com
- O: +1 (202) 547-0660
- M: +1 (202) 329-9650
- Skype: +1 (202) 738-1739 or paul.rosenzweig1066
-
Link to my PGP Key
-
- From: McAuley, David
[mailto:dmcauley@verisign.com]
- Sent: Friday, January 30, 2015 9:26 AM
- To: Accountability Cross Community
- Subject: Re: [CCWG-ACCT] The big test of effective
accountability
-
- Another thing that ICANN has let linger (and which is not a
recommendation but a bylaw) is the creation of a standing IRP panel that
would have “a variety of expertise, including jurisprudence, judicial
experience, alternative dispute resolution and knowledge of ICANN's
mission and work” to populate panels on individual IRP cases.
-
- The panel in the (still ongoing) IRP case brought by DotConnectAfrica
(DCA) Trust over the handling of the new .africa TLD recognized that the
lack of a standing panel had an impact
(
https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/irp-procedure-declaration-14aug14-en.pdf
):
-
- “The failure to create a standing panel has consequences, as this
case shows, delaying the processing of DCA Trust’s claim, and also
prejudicing the interest of a competing .AFRICA applicant.”
-
- David
-
- From:
accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org
[
mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of
Avri Doria
- Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2015 6:27 PM
- To: Accountability Cross Community
- Subject: Re: [CCWG-ACCT] The big test of effective
accountability
-
- Hi,
- And unfortunately they ignored the ASEP recommendations. The
ASEP was recommended by ATRT1, and its recommendations have been
recommend by ATRT2 for the committee working on Accountability it
recommended - ie. us.
- The fact that those recommendations lingered is indeed why we need
the binding bits.
- So often we come close, yet at the last minute we let something go
undone and the work gets lost.
- Stuff like this needs fixing.
- avri
- On 29-Jan-15 17:37, Kieren McCarthy wrote:
- I don't like this line about the Reconsideration Committee not being
"understood", Chris.
-
- ICANN's staff and Board have developed the rules by which the
committee acts and the way in which it decides to apply those rules.
Those rules have also changed over time.
-
- This is part of the problem - ICANN corporate lives within its own
world half the time. I can recall several conversations I had with
ICANN's general counsel when on staff where he presented me with an
entirely different perspective on critical matters to the one that I and
much of the community felt existed.
-
- There is an internal body of belief that stands in stark contrast to
the outside view. And that body of belief is consciously shielded.
-
- If ICANN wants the Reconsideration Committee to stop being
misunderstood, it should rename it the "Policy Process
Double-checking Committee".
-
- Or, alternatively, and preferably, changing the functioning of the
committee to actually "reconsider" decisions. And include
people other than Board members (one of the accountability
recommendations made many years ago but never implemented).
-
-
-
- Kieren
-
-
-
- On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 1:59 PM, Chris Disspain
<ceo@auda.org.au> wrote:
- Agree Avri. And whilst the reconsideration request process is widely
pilloried it does, in fact, provide a level of accountability. It may not
be understood, it may not provide the sort of or level of accountability
that is desirable but, I for one, would want it to be improved/expanded
rather than see it disappear as in a [very] narrow band of cases it does
work.
-
-
- Cheers,
-
- Chris
-
- On 30 Jan 2015, at 08:34 , Avri Doria
<avri@acm.org> wrote:
-
- Hi,
- I think Zero is a wee bit hyperbolic.
- I believe that the AOC does provide for accountability in the ATRT
reviews.
- We also vote on some Board seats and people have lost their
seats.
- Too slow and not as good as a recall procedure, but
accountabilty.
- Nomcom also does not always renew terms,
- even if the people want them too.
- That is also accountability.
- The IRT can also provide accountability.
- and does.
- It is true none of these bind the board,
- and that needs fixing,
- but I strongly disagree with the statement that there is no
accountability.
- Sure, none are as stringent as taking out
- and executing at dawn (I've been catching up on Marco Polo on
Netflix)
- but they are accountability,
- though of a lesser degree.
- avri
- On 29-Jan-15 14:14, Jonathan Zuck wrote:
- Kieren,
- That hard truth here is that while we endeavor to list existing
“accountability” mechanisms, there are, in fact, none. It’s a complete
red herring to explore them as part of this process. There are plenty of
opportunities to “vent” but there are, in fact, ZERO accountability
mechanisms in place, with the exception often cited but ridiculous “elect
a different board.” No one wants to hear that but it’s the truth. Our
goal here, in the near term is essentially to create ONE mechanism of
accountability in place, perhaps two. It is my sincere belief that the
presence of even a singleaccountability mechanism will go a long way
to change the culture inside ICANN because the net result will be to turn
the light back on the community to reach consensus. This is a GROSS
oversimplification, not meant to inspire nit picking but a return to the
task at hand which is to create a framework for reform which, if the
community remains motivated, will allow major cultural changes to take
place.
- JZ
-
-
- From: Kieren McCarthy
[
mailto:kierenmccarthy@gmail.com]
- Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2015 1:57 PM
- To: McAuley, David
- Cc: Jonathan Zuck; Accountability Cross Community
- Subject: Re: [CCWG-ACCT] The big test of effective
accountability
-
- One more thing from me and then I'll shut up.
-
- I'd be interested to hear from people that have actually gone through
the various accountability mechanisms what they thought of the
experience.
-
- For example:
-
- * Were you happy with the process?
- * Were you happy with the outcome?
- * Did you feel your points were understand and considered?
- * What would have improved the process for you?
- * If you lost, why did you not progress further in the appeal
process?
-
-
- This kind of feedback should be being done by ICANN itself but I'm
willing to bet it hasn't been. It's also not that hard to do: their names
are publicly available. ICANN has all their contact details. I bet many
of them would be happy to talk.
-
-
-
- Kieren
-
-
-
-
- On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 9:58 AM, McAuley, David
<dmcauley@verisign.com>
wrote:
- Hi Kieran,
-
- Thank you for this human-element discussion, most interesting and
helpful for me.
-
- I differ with one remark you made in the last post: “yes, the Board
can be overruled but only on issues of process.”
-
- It’s actually not all that positive, if I have things correctly
concerning accountability measures within the ICANN environment (not
addressing courts here).
-
- At present the board can be overruled in reconsideration requests –
but only by the board itself on, as you say, process issues. This
probably does not meet any realistic, objective accountability
standard.
-
- In IRP before independent panels, the board can take the panel’s
decision or leave it – it is nothing more than a recommendation, again on
process-based issues.
-
- The IRP panel in the DotConnectAfrica (DCA) Trust case ruled that it
could bind ICANN in a procedural ruling this past year, but ICANN’s
subsequent arguments before the same panel as well as other IRP panels
indicate that it does not accept that decision. It could be interesting
to see what ICANN does with the eventual final ruling in the case,
depending on whether the panel rules in DCA’s favor. .
-
- David McAuley
- From:
accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org
[mailto:
accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of
Kieren McCarthy
- Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2015 11:17 AM
- To: Jonathan Zuck
- Cc: Accountability Cross Community
- Subject: Re: [CCWG-ACCT] The big test of effective
accountability
-
- Quick thoughts on this:
-
- Yes, what the staff and Board end up doing is partly the community's
fault.
-
- Where I do place fault is in both continuing to do so, and failing to
make changes despite clear signs that it is not working effectively and
is even damaging trust.
-
- The Board seem confused and frustrated that they continue to be
yelled at. The community can't believe that the Board still hasn't heard
them. I think the gap is the lack of human judgement and the priority of
process and legal argument.
-
- I am a big fan of solid changes over long discourse. But what I
started to see on this group was a tendency toward process solutions and
legal-style decision making.
-
- Just one example: yes, the Board can be overruled but only on issues
of process.
-
- This just creates one more layer and process that ICANN will hold up
as accountability and the community will be completely dissatisfied
with.
-
- ICANN's staff will defend to the hilt the Board's initial decision,
creating a fight and tension, limiting discussion and sharing of
information, increasing distrust, reinforcing the barrier between
Corporate and community.
-
- And this is the big change we introduce this time around.
-
- My fear is that unless we break that habit, there will be another 10
years of dissatisfaction and another group like this one trying again to
bring 'accountability' in 2025.
-
-
- Kieren
- -
- [sent through phone]
-
- On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 7:35 AM, Jonathan Zuck
<JZuck@actonline.org>
wrote:
- I’m somewhat hesitant to speak up given Malcolm’s excellent treatise
but a few things spring to mind. The first and simplest is that process
still provides a structure the re-humanization you seek. In a large
organization if there isn’t a way to trigger the group “rethinking” an
issue, it will never happen. I believe that while this conversation
is emotionally rewarding, we need to be very careful to stay inside our
remit to come up with some very specific recommendations for increasing
accountability (in a legal sense) to replace the somewhat “legal”
accountability that exists today so my first inclination is to table this
discussion and get back to work.
-
- My second inclination is to dive in <g> and to come to the
defense of the board and ICANN staff a little bit. The buzzing in the
back of my head for the past year or so is that the “community” is
partially to blame for the environment in which we find ourselves.
ICANN is afraid of litigation because we are litigious. The board does
our job for us often because we have failed to do it ourselves.
-
- If the result of a policy development process is a failure to find
consensus, to compromise, to be “human” as you suggest Kieren, the
board is faced with the unenviable task of playing Solomon because the
community have essentially abdicated our responsibility. The boards
entire job is supposed to ONLY be about process and whether we’ve
followed it. Instead, we present the board with unfinished work, expect
them to “rule” on it and threaten to sue if we don’t get our way. If the
board is guilty of anything in this context, it is their willingness to
accept this challenge, which I suggest is dehumanizing because, like
Solomon, they are not in the best position to find a solution and often
create arbitrary compromise which is the number one characteristic of an
arbitration environment. More often than not, the board should simply
reject the unfinished work and send it back to the community to get it
done right. So I think there’s a lot to Kieren’s concern but I think the
community plays a significant role in the problem and must therefore play
a significant role in the solution and I’m ready for us to tackle
it.
-
- All that said, it’s not really relevant to the task at hand.
Obviously this whole situation has us
“navel gazing,”
and that’s not all bad but we do have a very specific task to accomplish
in the here and now and we would do well to focus on that alone, at least
for the time being.
-
- My two cents
-
- Jonathan
-
-
-
-
- From: