Dear Mathieu,
Further to my previous message, I wish to make some comments to your covering message
For ease of refernce, I have copied your message below and comment on that pargraph by paragraph as follows:


General Comments from Kavouss
Dear Mathieu , dear all,
There is conceptual problem in this other message referring to the two terms "Review Mechanism "and "Redress Mechanism"..The  legal difficulties  and 8or problem is that you have tzaken these two Mechanism as alternative to each other where as they are complementary in the consecutive order i.e. the  "Review Mechanism " is a prerequisite mechamism based on its outcome ( suhggestions, recommendatioons,conclusions ) the "Redress Mechanism" would be unsed to redress those elements which have been identified by the Review Process.
If an enterprise, an organisation, or a company decides to verfy whther the course of action taken complies with the terms and conditions (  charter ,convention, charter, constitution, covenant ....) based on which that enterprise, organisation, or  company  is/ was established .It would first review  the process and based on the outcome of the review the shortcoming, inconsistencies, defficiencies ,problems are identified ,Then through the redress process those shortcoming, inconsistencies, defficiencies ,problems are corrected .


Dear Colleagues,

I support the relevance and importance of the distinction. A description of this distinction is included in the "problem definition" document currently open for your comments and contributions, sections 3b (review) and 3c (redress).

Maybe this discussion could be used to check whether the current wording is agreeable to everyone ?

b.      Review mechanisms

The group considers review mechanisms to be mechanisms that assess the performance and relevance of processes or structures, and provide recommendations (binding or not binding) for improvement.

Examples include:

Comments from Kavouss

1.The outcome from the review mechanism is never binding due to the legal connotation of the Term " Review" . Review is review  has always had optional character and never has been binding

-          Periodic structural reviews of SOs and ACs (as currently mandated in the ICANN Bylaws)

-          AoC-mandated ICANN organizational reviews for Accountability and Transparency; Security, Stability, and Resiliency; WHOIS; and Competition and Consumer Trust.

Comments from Kavouss
2. You have referred to  Periodic structural reviews of SOs and ACs (as currently mandated in the ICANN Bylaws.But this is valid in regard with present structure  which is based on terms and conditions of AoC Bylaws, Article of corporation where as the future structure may be totally different
 

c.      Redress mechanisms

The group defines redress mechanisms as mechanisms that focus on assessing the compliance or relevance of a certain decision, and can conclude to its confirmation, cancellation or amendment. The output of such mechanism shall be binding.

Examples include:

-          Independent Review (if it is considered to be binding)

-          State of California or jurisdictions where ICANN has a presence Court décisions
Comments from Kavouss
With respect to the first indent ,as I explained Under general comments redressing process  has always been mandatory and binding since without that how the inconsistencies, defficiencies ,problems are identified Under the review process are redressed if the process was not mandatory / binding .
In view of the above, there is a need to clarify the matter.
I guess people are thinking of Review process similar to ATRT process which is totally optional in the implementation . That does not work .If you take that path there would be no accountability at all.
Moreover, As I have already indicated you need to make a clear distinction between the Policy, Policy making and Policy implementing entities and processes.
I do not uinderstand why we always by passed that important process .
I have made such suggestions several times but the two ch chairs have ignored that to be included in the agenda
The question is are we make evry possible effrort to maintain the existing process which is not acutally accountable to any one but on certain cases is accountable to NTIA  or
We need to establish the separation of process and responsibilty through an appropriate mechanism having two steps" Review "and the "Redress " the former is  essential to be done periodically while the outcome once considered under the latter process" Redress " is mandatory .
Then we need to describe
Who is the Policy making entity
Who is the Policy implementing entity
And what are the terms . conditions, provisions and content of Policy .
Thes should be clarified.
Regards
Kavouss  


2015-01-09 14:17 GMT+01:00 Kavouss Arasteh <kavouss.arasteh@gmail.com>:
Dear Mathieu
Dear All,
I have several comments and one major problem in misconception and misunderstanding propagated by the author of these issues which has led and would further lead to a total misleading of the two terms " Review" and " redress" 
I will revert to you later
Kavouss         

Sent from my iPhone

On 9 Jan 2015, at 10:10, Mathieu Weill <mathieu.weill@afnic.fr> wrote:

Dear Colleagues,

I support the relevance and importance of the distinction. A description of this distinction is included in the "problem definition" document currently open for your comments and contributions, sections 3b (review) and 3c (redress).

Maybe this discussion could be used to check whether the current wording is agreeable to everyone ?

b.      Review mechanisms

The group considers review mechanisms to be mechanisms that assess the performance and relevance of processes or structures, and provide recommendations (binding or not binding) for improvement.

Examples include:

-          Periodic structural reviews of SOs and ACs (as currently mandated in the ICANN Bylaws)

-          AoC-mandated ICANN organizational reviews for Accountability and Transparency; Security, Stability, and Resiliency; WHOIS; and Competition and Consumer Trust.

 

c.      Redress mechanisms

The group defines redress mechanisms as mechanisms that focus on assessing the compliance or relevance of a certain decision, and can conclude to its confirmation, cancellation or amendment. The output of such mechanism shall be binding.

Examples include:

-          Independent Review (if it is considered to be binding)

-          State of California or jurisdictions where ICANN has a presence Court decisions


May I also seize the opportunity to remind you all that your edits and suggestions are welcome on the rest of the document as well ?

Best
Mathieu

Le 08/01/2015 22:44, Bruce Tonkin a écrit :
Hello Paul,


 .  For me, the difference between "review" (i.e. recommendations) and "judicial/arbitral function" (i.e. binding decision that mandates implementation) is key.
Agreed.    That is an important distinction.   

Regards,
Bruce Tonkin 

_______________________________________________
Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list
Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org
https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community

-- 
*****************************
Mathieu WEILL
AFNIC - directeur général
Tél: +33 1 39 30 83 06
mathieu.weill@afnic.fr
Twitter : @mathieuweill
*****************************
<20140105 CCWG Accountability - problem definition - strawman -coChairs.pdf>
<20140105 CCWG Accountability - problem definition - strawman -prefinal.docx>
_______________________________________________
Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list
Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org
https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community