One big question on this will be, who funds those external organizations?
Working in line of NRO/ASO was also a possible route proposed within ALAC but my personal view is that such route could work if the existing regional TLD associations(it's called AFTLD in Africa region) form a nro like body which then becomes a ASO like representation within ICANN.
Regards
sent from Google nexus 4
kindly excuse brevity and typos.
Just brainstorming: one possibility may be to create "mirror" or "alter ego" organizations (perhaps corporations, perhaps some other form of organized entity), roughly along the lines of the NRO/ASO relationship (the ASO is an ICANN internal structure, while the NRO is not, yet they are essentially "alter egos"). Thus, each SO and AC could create an entity independent of ICANN, but answerable to that SO and AC. The external entities could then be members of ICANN. There are certainly difficulties with this idea (in particular, the GAC may be an issue, and the non-ccNSO ccTLDs may also be an issue), but it's an idea. These organizations would not be owned by the their "alter egos" (in the US, for instance, non-profit organizations generally cannot owned by any third party), so that may alleviate some concerns.Greg ShatanOn Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 8:17 PM, Avri Doria <avri@acm.org> wrote:Hi,
Yes there are difficulties in a component becoming a controlling entity. But I think there were those who thought it was possible. So probably worth checking out by those working on the model. I understand the right lawyer can build almost anything.
What examples of working models (existing wheels of the right type) for ICANN membership would you point to as worth exploring?
It was a good meeting. Happy I could be there.
avri
On 21-Jan-15 04:20, Dr Eberhard W Lisse wrote:
How can any internal structure of a company become "member" of said company?
And, as far as the Country Codes are concerned it can not work, as not all are members, and some might leave, depending on policy development.
There are similar organizations that have solved that problem, so I would look at those, before reinventing the wheel.
el
Sent from Dr Lisse's iPad miniHi,
Denic has a reasonable basis for membership.
I cannot understand what reasonable form that membership would take for ICANN. And as Robin's notes shows, it may not be necessary to achieve our goals.
We talked about SOAC [or their chairs], for example, are they all equal in represenation and voting weight, or do we need to negotiate some other form of balance? And what if new SOAC were to be created by the Board? What about the GAC, can a government entitiy join a California membership corporation? And if not based on SOAC, then what. Would it cost to join, and would that appropriate? If it did cost would that leave civil sociey behind? If it thee was not some sort of control would one sector or region predominate? Would we need to force a balance. Could governments join? How would someone maintain membership - is it permanent or does it take a renewal process.
And those are just the first questions. Membership sounds like an easy solution but the complexities are mind boggling.
avri
On 21-Jan-15 08:40, Dr Eberhard WLisse wrote:
Just for the record Nominet barely avoided capture, and by borderline means...
DENIC has some form of membership (industry).
el
--Sent from Dr Lisse's iPhone 5s
Team:
I'd like to associate myself with Greg’s comments (below). We cannot rule out proposed structures due to their novelty, and anticipated weaknesses are simply indicators that we need to continue working to improve/flesh out the idea(s).
In fact, I don’t believe is all that unknown in our industry. Two large ccTLDs (UK and CA) have some recognized form of membership that participates in governance and policy development in the TLD. And I am of the opinion that a well-designed membership structure could be an excellent safeguard against capture of ICANN by a majority of the Board, or a single SO/AC.
Thanks to all for a productive meeting in Frankfurt, look forward to future discussions, and see you in Singapore.
Thanks—
J.
From: Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc@gmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, January 20, 2015 at 20:38
To: Sivasubramanian M <isolatedn@gmail.com>
Cc: Accountability Cross Community <accountability-cross-community@icann.org>
Subject: Re: [CCWG-ACCT] [CCWG-Accountability] Membership thoughts
Siva,
What's your solution?
And how do you think we will be able to avoid unknown territory? I think we're going into some kind of unknown territory no matter what, since "known territory" is unsatisfactory (or else we wouldn't be here).
And why do you assume that potential participants will be shut out? Any system, poorly designed, will have problems. So let's try to design this well, so it doesn't shut out potential participants. Any grouping of people or entities is in some ways "prone to be captured." But rather than shoot down the membership concept in a knee-jerk fashion, try to work toward resolution, or at least try to create some useful "stress tests." I'm not saying that a membership organization is the right solution, the only solution, or even an available solution. Fighting through the issues won't be quick or pretty, and it may be the end-result doesn't work. But it's too soon to know.
The only way to avoid everything in your email is to stay in bed.
Greg Shatan
On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 2:08 PM, Sivasubramanian M <isolatedn@gmail.com> wrote:
I am equally concerned. The idea of moving to a membership based system takes us into an unknown territory. A membership based system shuts out a section of potential participants due to their inability to meet the requirement (money or other) for membership, the system is prone to be captured, and there would be imbalances and unknown dangers.
Sivasubramanain M
On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 12:08 AM, Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond <ocl@gih.com> wrote:
Dear Jordan,
thanks for your looking into this in further detail.
My comment below:
On 19/01/2015 16:00, Jordan Carter wrote:
>
> It would be straightforward and possible to make e.g. SO and AC chairs
> effective "members" of ICANN (we define our own membership system). It
> would be harder to allow individuals with some standing to join
> stakeholder constituencies of voters and then allocate shares of total
> votes across these in a fair way. It would be possible but mad to have
> a "one member one vote" system where a ccTLD manager had the same say
> as an Internet user.
Isn't what you're describing ICANN version 1, with thousands of
individual voters? I agree that did not work and will not work today
either. However, I would also really urge caution in turning ICANN into
a purely membership organisation that allocates shares of total votes
according to size of organisational members. I have seen membership
organisations being captured by large players buying out smaller players
- the endgame being $$$ controlling the organisation and *not* the
public interest.
Kind regards,
Olivier
--
Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, PhD
http://www.gih.com/ocl.html
_______________________________________________
Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list
Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org
https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community
_______________________________________________
Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list
Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org
https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community
_______________________________________________
Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list
Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org
https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community
_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community
_______________________________________________
Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list
Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org
https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community
_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community
_______________________________________________
Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list
Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org
https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community
_______________________________________________
Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list
Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org
https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community