Re: [CCWG-ACCT] TR: CCWG Accountability comment
Dear Mathieu, Thanks for this. There is an issue related to the Human Rights bylaw, which we have discussed and on which I think we reach agreement that has not been addressed in the CCWG public comment. Namely the comment made by Seth underneath, the exclusion of the text "unless and", about which I thought we reached consensus. Since the CCWG comments have already been submitted, how would you advice to proceed on this matter? Best, Niels On 05/13/2016 07:45 PM, Seth Johnson wrote:
Note for all: This does not address the inclusion of "unless and" in Section 27.3 (a), which makes the FOI on HR conditional and does not reflect the CCWG Report which only says the Core Value is not in force "until" the FOI is developed. Already said this, with some support. Repeating for reference once again.
Seth
On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 12:23 PM, Mathieu Weill <mathieu.weill@afnic.fr> wrote:
Dear Colleagues,
Attached is the comment posted to the public comment forum on the Draft Icann Bylaws on our behalf. Thanks to all of you for contributing to this effort.
https://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-draft-new-bylaws-21apr16/
Best
Thomas, Leon & Mathieu
De : Mathieu Weill [mailto:weill@afnic.fr] Envoyé : vendredi 13 mai 2016 18:19 À : 'comments-draft-new-bylaws-21apr16@icann.org' Objet : CCWG Accountability comment
Please find enclosed the comment submitted on behalf of the Cross Community Working Group en Enhancing Icann’s Accountability.
Best regards,
Thomas Rickert, Leon Felipe Sanchez and Mathieu Weill
Co-chairs
_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community
-- Niels ten Oever Head of Digital Article 19 www.article19.org PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9
Hi Niels, we had been advised by our law firms that there is no real legal difference between the two alternatives, which is why the comment has not made its way into the final version of the CCWG comment if memory does not fail me. If you still think this needs fixing, please do submit a comment to bring it to the attention of the drafting teams. Thanks, Thomas --- rickert.net eco.de
Am 17.05.2016 um 10:36 schrieb Niels ten Oever <lists@nielstenoever.net>:
Dear Mathieu,
Thanks for this. There is an issue related to the Human Rights bylaw, which we have discussed and on which I think we reach agreement that has not been addressed in the CCWG public comment. Namely the comment made by Seth underneath, the exclusion of the text "unless and", about which I thought we reached consensus.
Since the CCWG comments have already been submitted, how would you advice to proceed on this matter?
Best,
Niels
On 05/13/2016 07:45 PM, Seth Johnson wrote: Note for all: This does not address the inclusion of "unless and" in Section 27.3 (a), which makes the FOI on HR conditional and does not reflect the CCWG Report which only says the Core Value is not in force "until" the FOI is developed. Already said this, with some support. Repeating for reference once again.
Seth
On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 12:23 PM, Mathieu Weill <mathieu.weill@afnic.fr> wrote: Dear Colleagues,
Attached is the comment posted to the public comment forum on the Draft Icann Bylaws on our behalf. Thanks to all of you for contributing to this effort.
https://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-draft-new-bylaws-21apr16/
Best
Thomas, Leon & Mathieu
De : Mathieu Weill [mailto:weill@afnic.fr] Envoyé : vendredi 13 mai 2016 18:19 À : 'comments-draft-new-bylaws-21apr16@icann.org' Objet : CCWG Accountability comment
Please find enclosed the comment submitted on behalf of the Cross Community Working Group en Enhancing Icann’s Accountability.
Best regards,
Thomas Rickert, Leon Felipe Sanchez and Mathieu Weill
Co-chairs
_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community
-- Niels ten Oever Head of Digital
Article 19 www.article19.org
PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9
_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community
Probably for the first time on the subject of our failed attempt to hold ICANN accountable to Human Rights standards, I agree with Thomas. Not only is there 'no real difference', there is simply no difference. In the phrase "Unless and until" the phrase "unless and" is entirely otiose and simply an example of the all-too-common, unnecessary and habitual use of rhetorical adnominatio by legal draughtsmen. On 18/05/16 08:26, Thomas Rickert wrote:
Hi Niels, we had been advised by our law firms that there is no real legal difference between the two alternatives, which is why the comment has not made its way into the final version of the CCWG comment if memory does not fail me. If you still think this needs fixing, please do submit a comment to bring it to the attention of the drafting teams.
Thanks, Thomas
--- rickert.net <http://rickert.net> eco.de <http://eco.de>
Am 17.05.2016 um 10:36 schrieb Niels ten Oever <lists@nielstenoever.net <mailto:lists@nielstenoever.net>>:
Dear Mathieu,
Thanks for this. There is an issue related to the Human Rights bylaw, which we have discussed and on which I think we reach agreement that has not been addressed in the CCWG public comment. Namely the comment made by Seth underneath, the exclusion of the text "unless and", about which I thought we reached consensus.
Since the CCWG comments have already been submitted, how would you advice to proceed on this matter?
Best,
Niels
On 05/13/2016 07:45 PM, Seth Johnson wrote:
Note for all: This does not address the inclusion of "unless and" in Section 27.3 (a), which makes the FOI on HR conditional and does not reflect the CCWG Report which only says the Core Value is not in force "until" the FOI is developed. Already said this, with some support. Repeating for reference once again.
Seth
On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 12:23 PM, Mathieu Weill <mathieu.weill@afnic.fr <mailto:mathieu.weill@afnic.fr>> wrote:
Dear Colleagues,
Attached is the comment posted to the public comment forum on the Draft Icann Bylaws on our behalf. Thanks to all of you for contributing to this effort.
https://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-draft-new-bylaws-21apr16/
Best
Thomas, Leon & Mathieu
De : Mathieu Weill [mailto:weill@afnic.fr] Envoyé : vendredi 13 mai 2016 18:19 À : 'comments-draft-new-bylaws-21apr16@icann.org <mailto:comments-draft-new-bylaws-21apr16@icann.org>' Objet : CCWG Accountability comment
Please find enclosed the comment submitted on behalf of the Cross Community Working Group en Enhancing Icann’s Accountability.
Best regards,
Thomas Rickert, Leon Felipe Sanchez and Mathieu Weill
Co-chairs
_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org <mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community
-- Niels ten Oever Head of Digital
Article 19 www.article19.org <http://www.article19.org>
PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9
_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org <mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community
_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community
Hi Thomas, Am not sure if it is procedurally a good idea to have the lawyers make decisions on behalf of the CCWG, especially if there was consensus in the CCWG. Also I think 'until' implies a temporal condition, whereas unless implies a categorical condition, which I think is structurally different. Best, Niels On 05/18/2016 09:26 AM, Thomas Rickert wrote:
Hi Niels, we had been advised by our law firms that there is no real legal difference between the two alternatives, which is why the comment has not made its way into the final version of the CCWG comment if memory does not fail me. If you still think this needs fixing, please do submit a comment to bring it to the attention of the drafting teams.
Thanks, Thomas
--- rickert.net <http://rickert.net> eco.de <http://eco.de>
Am 17.05.2016 um 10:36 schrieb Niels ten Oever <lists@nielstenoever.net <mailto:lists@nielstenoever.net>>:
Dear Mathieu,
Thanks for this. There is an issue related to the Human Rights bylaw, which we have discussed and on which I think we reach agreement that has not been addressed in the CCWG public comment. Namely the comment made by Seth underneath, the exclusion of the text "unless and", about which I thought we reached consensus.
Since the CCWG comments have already been submitted, how would you advice to proceed on this matter?
Best,
Niels
On 05/13/2016 07:45 PM, Seth Johnson wrote:
Note for all: This does not address the inclusion of "unless and" in Section 27.3 (a), which makes the FOI on HR conditional and does not reflect the CCWG Report which only says the Core Value is not in force "until" the FOI is developed. Already said this, with some support. Repeating for reference once again.
Seth
On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 12:23 PM, Mathieu Weill <mathieu.weill@afnic.fr <mailto:mathieu.weill@afnic.fr>> wrote:
Dear Colleagues,
Attached is the comment posted to the public comment forum on the Draft Icann Bylaws on our behalf. Thanks to all of you for contributing to this effort.
https://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-draft-new-bylaws-21apr16/
Best
Thomas, Leon & Mathieu
De : Mathieu Weill [mailto:weill@afnic.fr] Envoyé : vendredi 13 mai 2016 18:19 À : 'comments-draft-new-bylaws-21apr16@icann.org <mailto:comments-draft-new-bylaws-21apr16@icann.org>' Objet : CCWG Accountability comment
Please find enclosed the comment submitted on behalf of the Cross Community Working Group en Enhancing Icann’s Accountability.
Best regards,
Thomas Rickert, Leon Felipe Sanchez and Mathieu Weill
Co-chairs
_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org <mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community
-- Niels ten Oever Head of Digital
Article 19 www.article19.org <http://www.article19.org>
PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9
_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org <mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community
-- Niels ten Oever Head of Digital Article 19 www.article19.org PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9
We don't need to fret over your predilection for polyptotony here. "Until" is entirely as good as "unless and until". UNLESS, that is you can give an example of how the temporal condition might be fulfilled without the categorical condition automatically also obtaining?? On 21/05/16 11:19, Niels ten Oever wrote:
Hi Thomas,
Am not sure if it is procedurally a good idea to have the lawyers make decisions on behalf of the CCWG, especially if there was consensus in the CCWG.
Also I think 'until' implies a temporal condition, whereas unless implies a categorical condition, which I think is structurally different.
Best,
Niels
On 05/18/2016 09:26 AM, Thomas Rickert wrote:
Hi Niels, we had been advised by our law firms that there is no real legal difference between the two alternatives, which is why the comment has not made its way into the final version of the CCWG comment if memory does not fail me. If you still think this needs fixing, please do submit a comment to bring it to the attention of the drafting teams.
Thanks, Thomas
--- rickert.net <http://rickert.net> eco.de <http://eco.de>
Am 17.05.2016 um 10:36 schrieb Niels ten Oever <lists@nielstenoever.net <mailto:lists@nielstenoever.net>>:
Dear Mathieu,
Thanks for this. There is an issue related to the Human Rights bylaw, which we have discussed and on which I think we reach agreement that has not been addressed in the CCWG public comment. Namely the comment made by Seth underneath, the exclusion of the text "unless and", about which I thought we reached consensus.
Since the CCWG comments have already been submitted, how would you advice to proceed on this matter?
Best,
Niels
On 05/13/2016 07:45 PM, Seth Johnson wrote:
Note for all: This does not address the inclusion of "unless and" in Section 27.3 (a), which makes the FOI on HR conditional and does not reflect the CCWG Report which only says the Core Value is not in force "until" the FOI is developed. Already said this, with some support. Repeating for reference once again.
Seth
On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 12:23 PM, Mathieu Weill <mathieu.weill@afnic.fr <mailto:mathieu.weill@afnic.fr>> wrote:
Dear Colleagues,
Attached is the comment posted to the public comment forum on the Draft Icann Bylaws on our behalf. Thanks to all of you for contributing to this effort.
https://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-draft-new-bylaws-21apr16/
Best
Thomas, Leon & Mathieu
De : Mathieu Weill [mailto:weill@afnic.fr] Envoyé : vendredi 13 mai 2016 18:19 À : 'comments-draft-new-bylaws-21apr16@icann.org <mailto:comments-draft-new-bylaws-21apr16@icann.org>' Objet : CCWG Accountability comment
Please find enclosed the comment submitted on behalf of the Cross Community Working Group en Enhancing Icann’s Accountability.
Best regards,
Thomas Rickert, Leon Felipe Sanchez and Mathieu Weill
Co-chairs
_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org <mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community
-- Niels ten Oever Head of Digital
Article 19 www.article19.org <http://www.article19.org>
PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9
_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org <mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community
Hi Niels, while I stand by the assessment that the different language does not have a legal impact, I was not referring to a decision made by the lawyers, but by our group based on the lawyer’s input. Best, Thomas
Am 21.05.2016 um 12:19 schrieb Niels ten Oever <lists@nielstenoever.net>:
Hi Thomas,
Am not sure if it is procedurally a good idea to have the lawyers make decisions on behalf of the CCWG, especially if there was consensus in the CCWG.
Also I think 'until' implies a temporal condition, whereas unless implies a categorical condition, which I think is structurally different.
Best,
Niels
On 05/18/2016 09:26 AM, Thomas Rickert wrote:
Hi Niels, we had been advised by our law firms that there is no real legal difference between the two alternatives, which is why the comment has not made its way into the final version of the CCWG comment if memory does not fail me. If you still think this needs fixing, please do submit a comment to bring it to the attention of the drafting teams.
Thanks, Thomas
--- rickert.net <http://rickert.net/> <http://rickert.net <http://rickert.net/>> eco.de <http://eco.de/> <http://eco.de <http://eco.de/>>
Am 17.05.2016 um 10:36 schrieb Niels ten Oever <lists@nielstenoever.net <mailto:lists@nielstenoever.net> <mailto:lists@nielstenoever.net <mailto:lists@nielstenoever.net>>>:
Dear Mathieu,
Thanks for this. There is an issue related to the Human Rights bylaw, which we have discussed and on which I think we reach agreement that has not been addressed in the CCWG public comment. Namely the comment made by Seth underneath, the exclusion of the text "unless and", about which I thought we reached consensus.
Since the CCWG comments have already been submitted, how would you advice to proceed on this matter?
Best,
Niels
On 05/13/2016 07:45 PM, Seth Johnson wrote:
Note for all: This does not address the inclusion of "unless and" in Section 27.3 (a), which makes the FOI on HR conditional and does not reflect the CCWG Report which only says the Core Value is not in force "until" the FOI is developed. Already said this, with some support. Repeating for reference once again.
Seth
On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 12:23 PM, Mathieu Weill <mathieu.weill@afnic.fr <mailto:mathieu.weill@afnic.fr> <mailto:mathieu.weill@afnic.fr <mailto:mathieu.weill@afnic.fr>>> wrote:
Dear Colleagues,
Attached is the comment posted to the public comment forum on the Draft Icann Bylaws on our behalf. Thanks to all of you for contributing to this effort.
https://forum.icann.org/lists/comments-draft-new-bylaws-21apr16/
Best
Thomas, Leon & Mathieu
De : Mathieu Weill [mailto:weill@afnic.fr] Envoyé : vendredi 13 mai 2016 18:19 À : 'comments-draft-new-bylaws-21apr16@icann.org <mailto:comments-draft-new-bylaws-21apr16@icann.org> <mailto:comments-draft-new-bylaws-21apr16@icann.org <mailto:comments-draft-new-bylaws-21apr16@icann.org>>' Objet : CCWG Accountability comment
Please find enclosed the comment submitted on behalf of the Cross Community Working Group en Enhancing Icann’s Accountability.
Best regards,
Thomas Rickert, Leon Felipe Sanchez and Mathieu Weill
Co-chairs
_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org <mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org> <mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org <mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community <https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community>
-- Niels ten Oever Head of Digital
Article 19 www.article19.org <http://www.article19.org/> <http://www.article19.org <http://www.article19.org/>>
PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9
_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org <mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org> <mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org <mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community
-- Niels ten Oever Head of Digital
Article 19 www.article19.org
PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9 _______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community
participants (3)
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Niels ten Oever -
Nigel Roberts -
Thomas Rickert