Confirm language regarding string as content
The Mission Statement language that I circulated tester permits ICANN to take into account "the semantic meaning of domain names.” Andrew Sullivan has proposed that the language reference taking into account "the use of domain names as identifiers in various natural language.” I indicated that I was fine with Andrew’s tweak – will make that substitution in the text unless folks respond to the contrary! J. Beckwith Burr Neustar, Inc. / Deputy General Counsel & Chief Privacy Officer 1775 Pennsylvania Avenue NW, Washington D.C. 20006 Office: +1.202.533.2932 Mobile: +1.202.352.6367 / neustar.biz<http://www.neustar.biz>
Seems fine to me. Greg On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 2:25 PM, Burr, Becky <Becky.Burr@neustar.biz> wrote:
The Mission Statement language that I circulated tester permits ICANN to take into account "the semantic meaning of domain names.”
Andrew Sullivan has proposed that the language reference taking into account "the use of domain names as identifiers in various natural language.”
I indicated that I was fine with Andrew’s tweak – will make that substitution in the text unless folks respond to the contrary!
*J. Beckwith Burr* *Neustar, Inc.* / Deputy General Counsel & Chief Privacy Officer 1775 Pennsylvania Avenue NW, Washington D.C. 20006 *Office:* +1.202.533.2932 *Mobile:* +1.202.352.6367 */* *neustar.biz* <http://www.neustar.biz>
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And me
On 25 Nov 2015, at 14:34, Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc@gmail.com> wrote:
Seems fine to me.
Greg
On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 2:25 PM, Burr, Becky <Becky.Burr@neustar.biz> wrote: The Mission Statement language that I circulated tester permits ICANN to take into account "the semantic meaning of domain names.”
Andrew Sullivan has proposed that the language reference taking into account "the use of domain names as identifiers in various natural language.”
I indicated that I was fine with Andrew’s tweak – will make that substitution in the text unless folks respond to the contrary!
J. Beckwith Burr Neustar, Inc. / Deputy General Counsel & Chief Privacy Officer 1775 Pennsylvania Avenue NW, Washington D.C. 20006 Office: +1.202.533.2932 Mobile: +1.202.352.6367 / neustar.biz
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Becky, I think its fine. The only change I suggest is to use "identifiers formed by sequences of labels consisting of strings" and "in various scripts", rather than "domain names" and "natural language". Eric On 11/25/15 11:25 AM, Burr, Becky wrote:
The Mission Statement language that I circulated tester permits ICANN to take into account "the semantic meaning of domain names.”
Andrew Sullivan has proposed that the language reference taking into account "the use of domain names as identifiers in various natural language.”
I indicated that I was fine with Andrew’s tweak – will make that substitution in the text unless folks respond to the contrary!
*J. Beckwith Burr**** **Neustar, Inc.***/**Deputy General Counsel & Chief Privacy Officer 1775 Pennsylvania Avenue NW, Washington D.C. 20006 *Office:***+1.202.533.2932 *Mobile:***+1.202.352.6367 */**neustar.biz* <http://www.neustar.biz>
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Hi, On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 12:06:17PM -0800, Eric Brunner-Williams wrote:
I think its fine. The only change I suggest is to use "identifiers formed by sequences of labels consisting of strings" and "in various scripts", rather than "domain names" and "natural language".
I think that's a different problem, and I think it's much less intelligible to the average reader, but I don't care if that's what we prefer. Best regards, A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com
If it is a different problem, what problem is it? "the average reader"? now there's a can of worms. On 11/25/15 2:05 PM, Andrew Sullivan wrote:
Hi,
On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 12:06:17PM -0800, Eric Brunner-Williams wrote:
I think its fine. The only change I suggest is to use "identifiers formed by sequences of labels consisting of strings" and "in various scripts", rather than "domain names" and "natural language". I think that's a different problem, and I think it's much less intelligible to the average reader, but I don't care if that's what we prefer.
Best regards,
A
On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 03:17:41PM -0800, Eric Brunner-Williams wrote:
If it is a different problem, what problem is it?
Most important, it raises the entire issue of scripts, which are not actually the identifiers in the DNS since the labels ICANN specifies for the DNS are actually not about scripts (since they're A-labels). And ICANN cannot technically and should not otherwise have an opinion about what scripts people are using lower in the tree (especially since people can and do use non-IDNA labels if they want). I'm also more than a little worried about the "sequences of labels" thing, since that re-opens the issue of where in the tree ICANN is supposed to stop, but I'm prepared to ignore that in this formulation if others really like it since it doesn't say "all sequences of labels".
"the average reader"? now there's a can of worms.
Indeed! Best regards, A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com
The thesis, advanced below, is that "domain name" contains within it an unambiguous limitation on the scope of the Corporation's policy making capability, which "a sequence of labels" does not. On 11/25/15 3:29 PM, Andrew Sullivan wrote:
... I'm also more than a little worried about the "sequences of labels" thing, since that re-opens the issue of where in the tree ICANN is supposed to stop, ...
"domain name" appears in rfc882 (Jake Feinler et alia's work circa 1983), which incorporates the "host" language of the earlier rfc608 and rfc606 (Peter Deutsch's work at SRI a decade earlier). For the thesis that "domain name" contains some limitation on the scope of the contractor co-publishing, with another government contractor, a tree (earlier, a table), we should be able to find that limitation in some subsequent rfc. In the alternative, if a "domain name" is distinct from "a sequence of labels", in the sense that the former necessarily exists within a tree co-published by US government contractors, and the latter does not, then the string "icann.org" is a domain name, associated with the address 192.0.43.7, when resolved from, for the purposes of illustration, some device in Los Angeles, as that resolution is made relative to the tree co-pubished by US government contractors. The same string "icann.org", is necessarily _not_ a domain name, though also associated with the address 192.0.43.7, when resolved from, for the purposes of illustration, some device in Beijing, as that resolution is made relative to the tree not published by US government contractors (though the USG tree and the PRC tree differ on only a minute number of "strings", and without loss of generality we can assume that all such differences are strings which appear only in the PRC tree, generally associated with Han Script entries added to the PRC tree between 2005 and 2010). So, in what rfc may I find either the association of a limitation on scope within the government contractor published tree, or an association to the government contractor published tree and no tree published by some other party, for "domain name", which of necessity is absent, in one or the other or both parts, for "a sequence of labels"? An appeal to the "average reader" is of course, answerable, if and only if, the nuances of terms of art, whether they arise from the applicable technology or from the applicable law, are also all that is necessary in the text we, and not some random collection of "average readers", are attempting to write, nominally for some rather serious purpose. Eric Brunner-Williams Eugene, Oregon
I appreciate the technical accuracy of Eric's formulation, but I strongly prefer Andrew's formulation. It says basically the same thing but seems easier to understand and thus less likely to cause trouble. Domain names are "identifiers formed by sequences of labels consisting of strings" are they not? And the "sequences of labels" refers to any and all levels of the DNS, when ICANN should be restricted to TLDs. "Natural language' seems to encompass "different scripts" as well, although the "strings" of which domain names are composed are still ASCII; they are (if I understand correctly) simply mapped to unicode when displayed. By the way, in "the use of domain names as identifiers in various natural language." language should be plural. --MM From: accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org [mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Eric Brunner-Williams Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2015 3:06 PM To: accountability-cross-community@icann.org Subject: Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Confirm language regarding string as content Becky, I think its fine. The only change I suggest is to use "identifiers formed by sequences of labels consisting of strings" and "in various scripts", rather than "domain names" and "natural language". Eric On 11/25/15 11:25 AM, Burr, Becky wrote: The Mission Statement language that I circulated tester permits ICANN to take into account "the semantic meaning of domain names." Andrew Sullivan has proposed that the language reference taking into account "the use of domain names as identifiers in various natural language." I indicated that I was fine with Andrew's tweak - will make that substitution in the text unless folks respond to the contrary! J. Beckwith Burr Neustar, Inc. / Deputy General Counsel & Chief Privacy Officer 1775 Pennsylvania Avenue NW, Washington D.C. 20006 Office: +1.202.533.2932 Mobile: +1.202.352.6367 / neustar.biz<http://www.neustar.biz> _______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org<mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community
I agree. Please add me to support replacement suggested by Andrew. I think stating as "domain name" and "natural language" is straight forward and sufficiently achieves what we need. I would be more concerned about having unintended consequences by making further changes to "identifiers formed by sequences of labels consisting of strings". I empathize with the positive motivation to make the text better, but at this point, I strongly encourage us to forward based on Beck's suggestion unless there is specific concern. my two cents, Izumi On 2015/11/26 9:20, Mueller, Milton L wrote:
I appreciate the technical accuracy of Eric's formulation, but I strongly prefer Andrew's formulation. It says basically the same thing but seems easier to understand and thus less likely to cause trouble. Domain names are "identifiers formed by sequences of labels consisting of strings" are they not? And the "sequences of labels" refers to any and all levels of the DNS, when ICANN should be restricted to TLDs. "Natural language' seems to encompass "different scripts" as well, although the "strings" of which domain names are composed are still ASCII; they are (if I understand correctly) simply mapped to unicode when displayed.
By the way, in "the use of domain names as identifiers in various natural language." language should be plural.
--MM
From: accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org [mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Eric Brunner-Williams Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2015 3:06 PM To: accountability-cross-community@icann.org Subject: Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Confirm language regarding string as content
Becky,
I think its fine. The only change I suggest is to use "identifiers formed by sequences of labels consisting of strings" and "in various scripts", rather than "domain names" and "natural language".
Eric
On 11/25/15 11:25 AM, Burr, Becky wrote: The Mission Statement language that I circulated tester permits ICANN to take into account "the semantic meaning of domain names."
Andrew Sullivan has proposed that the language reference taking into account "the use of domain names as identifiers in various natural language."
I indicated that I was fine with Andrew's tweak - will make that substitution in the text unless folks respond to the contrary!
J. Beckwith Burr Neustar, Inc. / Deputy General Counsel & Chief Privacy Officer 1775 Pennsylvania Avenue NW, Washington D.C. 20006 Office: +1.202.533.2932 Mobile: +1.202.352.6367 / neustar.biz<http://www.neustar.biz>
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I share Izumi's view.
On 25 Nov 2015, at 22:12, Izumi Okutani <izumi@nic.ad.jp> wrote:
I agree. Please add me to support replacement suggested by Andrew.
I think stating as "domain name" and "natural language" is straight forward and sufficiently achieves what we need. I would be more concerned about having unintended consequences by making further changes to "identifiers formed by sequences of labels consisting of strings".
I empathize with the positive motivation to make the text better, but at this point, I strongly encourage us to forward based on Beck's suggestion unless there is specific concern.
my two cents, Izumi
On 2015/11/26 9:20, Mueller, Milton L wrote: I appreciate the technical accuracy of Eric's formulation, but I strongly prefer Andrew's formulation. It says basically the same thing but seems easier to understand and thus less likely to cause trouble. Domain names are "identifiers formed by sequences of labels consisting of strings" are they not? And the "sequences of labels" refers to any and all levels of the DNS, when ICANN should be restricted to TLDs. "Natural language' seems to encompass "different scripts" as well, although the "strings" of which domain names are composed are still ASCII; they are (if I understand correctly) simply mapped to unicode when displayed.
By the way, in "the use of domain names as identifiers in various natural language." language should be plural.
--MM
From: accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org [mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Eric Brunner-Williams Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2015 3:06 PM To: accountability-cross-community@icann.org Subject: Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Confirm language regarding string as content
Becky,
I think its fine. The only change I suggest is to use "identifiers formed by sequences of labels consisting of strings" and "in various scripts", rather than "domain names" and "natural language".
Eric
On 11/25/15 11:25 AM, Burr, Becky wrote: The Mission Statement language that I circulated tester permits ICANN to take into account "the semantic meaning of domain names."
Andrew Sullivan has proposed that the language reference taking into account "the use of domain names as identifiers in various natural language."
I indicated that I was fine with Andrew's tweak - will make that substitution in the text unless folks respond to the contrary!
J. Beckwith Burr Neustar, Inc. / Deputy General Counsel & Chief Privacy Officer 1775 Pennsylvania Avenue NW, Washington D.C. 20006 Office: +1.202.533.2932 Mobile: +1.202.352.6367 / neustar.biz<http://www.neustar.biz>
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I am with Izumi and Andrew on this. It is difficult enough to explain to Generation Y'ers (welded to their Cell Phones) what Domain Names are... el -- Sent from Dr Lisse's iPad mini
On 26 Nov 2015, at 05:12, Izumi Okutani <izumi@nic.ad.jp> wrote:
I agree. Please add me to support replacement suggested by Andrew.
I think stating as "domain name" and "natural language" is straight forward and sufficiently achieves what we need. I would be more concerned about having unintended consequences by making further changes to "identifiers formed by sequences of labels consisting of strings".
I empathize with the positive motivation to make the text better, but at this point, I strongly encourage us to forward based on Beck's suggestion unless there is specific concern.
my two cents, Izumi
On 2015/11/26 9:20, Mueller, Milton L wrote: I appreciate the technical accuracy of Eric's formulation, but I strongly prefer Andrew's formulation. It says basically the same thing but seems easier to understand and thus less likely to cause trouble. Domain names are "identifiers formed by sequences of labels consisting of strings" are they not? And the "sequences of labels" refers to any and all levels of the DNS, when ICANN should be restricted to TLDs. "Natural language' seems to encompass "different scripts" as well, although the "strings" of which domain names are composed are still ASCII; they are (if I understand correctly) simply mapped to unicode when displayed.
By the way, in "the use of domain names as identifiers in various natural language." language should be plural.
--MM
From: accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org [mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Eric Brunner-Williams Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2015 3:06 PM To: accountability-cross-community@icann.org Subject: Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Confirm language regarding string as content
Becky,
I think its fine. The only change I suggest is to use "identifiers formed by sequences of labels consisting of strings" and "in various scripts", rather than "domain names" and "natural language".
Eric
On 11/25/15 11:25 AM, Burr, Becky wrote: The Mission Statement language that I circulated tester permits ICANN to take into account "the semantic meaning of domain names."
Andrew Sullivan has proposed that the language reference taking into account "the use of domain names as identifiers in various natural language."
I indicated that I was fine with Andrew's tweak - will make that substitution in the text unless folks respond to the contrary!
J. Beckwith Burr Neustar, Inc. / Deputy General Counsel & Chief Privacy Officer 1775 Pennsylvania Avenue NW, Washington D.C. 20006 Office: +1.202.533.2932 Mobile: +1.202.352.6367 / neustar.biz<http://www.neustar.biz>
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Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list
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https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community
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participants (8)
-
Andrew Sullivan -
Burr, Becky -
Dr Eberhard W Lisse -
Eric Brunner-Williams -
Greg Shatan -
Izumi Okutani -
Malcolm Hutty -
Mueller, Milton L