Questions about Members
I tend to relate to many of Chris' concerns about Members, but putting that aside, I am side a bit confused about the concept itself. I understand that to be Members, the ACs and SOs concerned would need to have legal status (unincorporated associations in this case). But this is where it becomes messy in my mind. The ACs and SOs are in fact creatures of (inventions of?) the ICANN Bylaws. Now we take those entities, give them status as associations, and make them Members of ICANN under its new Bylaws. In my previous involvement with Membership organizations, the Members were arms-length-removed from the organization of which they were members. This sounds sort of like a circular definition - entities created by the ICANN Bylaws become its controlling Members. In the past, ICANN could alter its Bylaws and create new ACs or SOs and make others go away (DNSO --> GNSO + ccNSO, for example). Could it still do that? If the GNSO was replaced by the XNSO, would the GNSO Unincorporated Association still be a Member? Could ICANN mandate changes in an AC or SO as it now can? The questions keep on coming... Alan
hi Alan, all Alan, I think you might accidentally have gotten yourself into one of those horrible downward spirals of concern here. So I offer my more optimistic take. The creation of unincorporated associations for the purpose of giving members the legal personality they need would have bearing only on the role of the SOs and ACs *as members* (or designators - it's advantageous for designators to have this legal personality, too). Because the rights we want these "members" to have are / would be very clear, it will be relatively simple to make sure these unincorporated associations are minimalist in every way. The component people/organisations in the SOs and ACs would only act through the associations in order to exercise those membership rights. Those associations would be the "persons". They are arms length from ICANN. The fact that the people who populate them are also populating internal ICANN structures has no bearing on that personhood. In every other way for all the usual business of ICANN, things would be as they are now. If ICANN were to fundamentally restructure the SOs and ACs, or even just one of them, it would as part of that process have also to change the membership rules to define the new "XNSO" as a member, and refer to the association involved (which would just be another part of establishing it). That just adds a pretty simple, low-key process to the (very complex, no doubt) process of changing an SO or AC. The critical point is that you are wrong where you say "we take these entities and make them Members". No. We would be asking the people and entities that populate those ICANN bodies (which aren't entities) and giving them the chance to exercise their designators or members powers through these associations. That is - under the package of reforms we are proposing, such associations would be the vehicle for the community to exercise power over the corporation, as part of the membership and designator form. Not anything else. All that said - it would probably be really useful to see what the rules of such a beast would look like? We know from legal advice so far that there's no flow of fiduciary responsibility or liability through this approach, but concreteness can help. On the other hand, we've agreed that we are not trying to solve all the details at this point of the process. So maybe adding that (and even responding to this!) aren't helpful.....? cheers Jordan On 22 April 2015 at 17:23, Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> wrote:
I tend to relate to many of Chris' concerns about Members, but putting that aside, I am side a bit confused about the concept itself.
I understand that to be Members, the ACs and SOs concerned would need to have legal status (unincorporated associations in this case). But this is where it becomes messy in my mind. The ACs and SOs are in fact creatures of (inventions of?) the ICANN Bylaws. Now we take those entities, give them status as associations, and make them Members of ICANN under its new Bylaws.
In my previous involvement with Membership organizations, the Members were arms-length-removed from the organization of which they were members.
This sounds sort of like a circular definition - entities created by the ICANN Bylaws become its controlling Members.
In the past, ICANN could alter its Bylaws and create new ACs or SOs and make others go away (DNSO --> GNSO + ccNSO, for example). Could it still do that? If the GNSO was replaced by the XNSO, would the GNSO Unincorporated Association still be a Member?
Could ICANN mandate changes in an AC or SO as it now can?
The questions keep on coming...
Alan
_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community
-- Jordan Carter Chief Executive *InternetNZ* 04 495 2118 (office) | +64 21 442 649 (mob) jordan@internetnz.net.nz Skype: jordancarter *A better world through a better Internet *
Jordan, My assumption/understanding had been a little bit different. Rather than the UA's being "alter egos" of the SOACs, it had been my understanding that the SOACs would become UAs (indeed many are probably de facto UAs already). That said, we should see whether this alter ego set-up is viable (or is the one intended, and I'm not keeping up). It could solve some of the "problems" being raised. By the way, it brings to mind the relationship between the ASO and the NRO, though there are certainly differences. Greg On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 1:44 AM, Jordan Carter <jordan@internetnz.net.nz> wrote:
hi Alan, all
Alan, I think you might accidentally have gotten yourself into one of those horrible downward spirals of concern here. So I offer my more optimistic take.
The creation of unincorporated associations for the purpose of giving members the legal personality they need would have bearing only on the role of the SOs and ACs *as members* (or designators - it's advantageous for designators to have this legal personality, too).
Because the rights we want these "members" to have are / would be very clear, it will be relatively simple to make sure these unincorporated associations are minimalist in every way. The component people/organisations in the SOs and ACs would only act through the associations in order to exercise those membership rights.
Those associations would be the "persons". They are arms length from ICANN. The fact that the people who populate them are also populating internal ICANN structures has no bearing on that personhood.
In every other way for all the usual business of ICANN, things would be as they are now. If ICANN were to fundamentally restructure the SOs and ACs, or even just one of them, it would as part of that process have also to change the membership rules to define the new "XNSO" as a member, and refer to the association involved (which would just be another part of establishing it). That just adds a pretty simple, low-key process to the (very complex, no doubt) process of changing an SO or AC.
The critical point is that you are wrong where you say "we take these entities and make them Members". No. We would be asking the people and entities that populate those ICANN bodies (which aren't entities) and giving them the chance to exercise their designators or members powers through these associations.
That is - under the package of reforms we are proposing, such associations would be the vehicle for the community to exercise power over the corporation, as part of the membership and designator form. Not anything else.
All that said - it would probably be really useful to see what the rules of such a beast would look like? We know from legal advice so far that there's no flow of fiduciary responsibility or liability through this approach, but concreteness can help.
On the other hand, we've agreed that we are not trying to solve all the details at this point of the process. So maybe adding that (and even responding to this!) aren't helpful.....?
cheers Jordan
On 22 April 2015 at 17:23, Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> wrote:
I tend to relate to many of Chris' concerns about Members, but putting that aside, I am side a bit confused about the concept itself.
I understand that to be Members, the ACs and SOs concerned would need to have legal status (unincorporated associations in this case). But this is where it becomes messy in my mind. The ACs and SOs are in fact creatures of (inventions of?) the ICANN Bylaws. Now we take those entities, give them status as associations, and make them Members of ICANN under its new Bylaws.
In my previous involvement with Membership organizations, the Members were arms-length-removed from the organization of which they were members.
This sounds sort of like a circular definition - entities created by the ICANN Bylaws become its controlling Members.
In the past, ICANN could alter its Bylaws and create new ACs or SOs and make others go away (DNSO --> GNSO + ccNSO, for example). Could it still do that? If the GNSO was replaced by the XNSO, would the GNSO Unincorporated Association still be a Member?
Could ICANN mandate changes in an AC or SO as it now can?
The questions keep on coming...
Alan
_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community
-- Jordan Carter
Chief Executive *InternetNZ*
04 495 2118 (office) | +64 21 442 649 (mob) jordan@internetnz.net.nz Skype: jordancarter
*A better world through a better Internet *
_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community
On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 7:24 AM, Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc@gmail.com> wrote:
Jordan,
My assumption/understanding had been a little bit different. Rather than the UA's being "alter egos" of the SOACs, it had been my understanding that the SOACs would become UAs (indeed many are probably de facto UAs already). That said, we should see whether this alter ego set-up is viable (or is the one intended, and I'm not keeping up). It could solve some of the "problems" being raised. By the way, it brings to mind the relationship between the ASO and the NRO, though there are certainly differences.
I guess UA is a new acronym to the long list, you may care to define it :-). That said, i don't see the similarity to the NRO/ASO configuration perhaps you care to further clarify OR maybe you meant NRO-NC to ASO configuration where the same member of NRO-NC also populate the ASO? Cheers!
Greg
On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 1:44 AM, Jordan Carter <jordan@internetnz.net.nz> wrote:
hi Alan, all
Alan, I think you might accidentally have gotten yourself into one of those horrible downward spirals of concern here. So I offer my more optimistic take.
The creation of unincorporated associations for the purpose of giving members the legal personality they need would have bearing only on the role of the SOs and ACs *as members* (or designators - it's advantageous for designators to have this legal personality, too).
Because the rights we want these "members" to have are / would be very clear, it will be relatively simple to make sure these unincorporated associations are minimalist in every way. The component people/organisations in the SOs and ACs would only act through the associations in order to exercise those membership rights.
Those associations would be the "persons". They are arms length from ICANN. The fact that the people who populate them are also populating internal ICANN structures has no bearing on that personhood.
In every other way for all the usual business of ICANN, things would be as they are now. If ICANN were to fundamentally restructure the SOs and ACs, or even just one of them, it would as part of that process have also to change the membership rules to define the new "XNSO" as a member, and refer to the association involved (which would just be another part of establishing it). That just adds a pretty simple, low-key process to the (very complex, no doubt) process of changing an SO or AC.
The critical point is that you are wrong where you say "we take these entities and make them Members". No. We would be asking the people and entities that populate those ICANN bodies (which aren't entities) and giving them the chance to exercise their designators or members powers through these associations.
That is - under the package of reforms we are proposing, such associations would be the vehicle for the community to exercise power over the corporation, as part of the membership and designator form. Not anything else.
All that said - it would probably be really useful to see what the rules of such a beast would look like? We know from legal advice so far that there's no flow of fiduciary responsibility or liability through this approach, but concreteness can help.
On the other hand, we've agreed that we are not trying to solve all the details at this point of the process. So maybe adding that (and even responding to this!) aren't helpful.....?
cheers Jordan
On 22 April 2015 at 17:23, Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> wrote:
I tend to relate to many of Chris' concerns about Members, but putting that aside, I am side a bit confused about the concept itself.
I understand that to be Members, the ACs and SOs concerned would need to have legal status (unincorporated associations in this case). But this is where it becomes messy in my mind. The ACs and SOs are in fact creatures of (inventions of?) the ICANN Bylaws. Now we take those entities, give them status as associations, and make them Members of ICANN under its new Bylaws.
In my previous involvement with Membership organizations, the Members were arms-length-removed from the organization of which they were members.
This sounds sort of like a circular definition - entities created by the ICANN Bylaws become its controlling Members.
In the past, ICANN could alter its Bylaws and create new ACs or SOs and make others go away (DNSO --> GNSO + ccNSO, for example). Could it still do that? If the GNSO was replaced by the XNSO, would the GNSO Unincorporated Association still be a Member?
Could ICANN mandate changes in an AC or SO as it now can?
The questions keep on coming...
Alan
_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community
-- Jordan Carter
Chief Executive *InternetNZ*
04 495 2118 (office) | +64 21 442 649 (mob) jordan@internetnz.net.nz Skype: jordancarter
*A better world through a better Internet *
_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community
_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community
-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Seun Ojedeji,Federal University Oye-Ekitiweb: http://www.fuoye.edu.ng <http://www.fuoye.edu.ng> Mobile: +2348035233535**alt email: <http://goog_1872880453>seun.ojedeji@fuoye.edu.ng <seun.ojedeji@fuoye.edu.ng>* The key to understanding is humility - my view !
Jordan, my experience over the (many) years I have been involved (well before ICANN) is that there is no room for optimism. WHATSOEVER. el -- Sent from Dr Lisse's iPad mini
On Apr 22, 2015, at 06:44, Jordan Carter <jordan@internetnz.net.nz> wrote:
hi Alan, all
Alan, I think you might accidentally have gotten yourself into one of those horrible downward spirals of concern here. So I offer my more optimistic take.
The creation of unincorporated associations for the purpose of giving members the legal personality they need would have bearing only on the role of the SOs and ACs *as members* (or designators - it's advantageous for designators to have this legal personality, too).
Because the rights we want these "members" to have are / would be very clear, it will be relatively simple to make sure these unincorporated associations are minimalist in every way. The component people/organisations in the SOs and ACs would only act through the associations in order to exercise those membership rights.
Those associations would be the "persons". They are arms length from ICANN. The fact that the people who populate them are also populating internal ICANN structures has no bearing on that personhood.
In every other way for all the usual business of ICANN, things would be as they are now. If ICANN were to fundamentally restructure the SOs and ACs, or even just one of them, it would as part of that process have also to change the membership rules to define the new "XNSO" as a member, and refer to the association involved (which would just be another part of establishing it). That just adds a pretty simple, low-key process to the (very complex, no doubt) process of changing an SO or AC.
The critical point is that you are wrong where you say "we take these entities and make them Members". No. We would be asking the people and entities that populate those ICANN bodies (which aren't entities) and giving them the chance to exercise their designators or members powers through these associations.
That is - under the package of reforms we are proposing, such associations would be the vehicle for the community to exercise power over the corporation, as part of the membership and designator form. Not anything else.
All that said - it would probably be really useful to see what the rules of such a beast would look like? We know from legal advice so far that there's no flow of fiduciary responsibility or liability through this approach, but concreteness can help.
On the other hand, we've agreed that we are not trying to solve all the details at this point of the process. So maybe adding that (and even responding to this!) aren't helpful.....?
cheers Jordan
On 22 April 2015 at 17:23, Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> wrote: I tend to relate to many of Chris' concerns about Members, but putting that aside, I am side a bit confused about the concept itself.
I understand that to be Members, the ACs and SOs concerned would need to have legal status (unincorporated associations in this case). But this is where it becomes messy in my mind. The ACs and SOs are in fact creatures of (inventions of?) the ICANN Bylaws. Now we take those entities, give them status as associations, and make them Members of ICANN under its new Bylaws.
In my previous involvement with Membership organizations, the Members were arms-length-removed from the organization of which they were members.
This sounds sort of like a circular definition - entities created by the ICANN Bylaws become its controlling Members.
In the past, ICANN could alter its Bylaws and create new ACs or SOs and make others go away (DNSO --> GNSO + ccNSO, for example). Could it still do that? If the GNSO was replaced by the XNSO, would the GNSO Unincorporated Association still be a Member?
Could ICANN mandate changes in an AC or SO as it now can?
The questions keep on coming...
Alan
_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community
-- Jordan Carter
Chief Executive InternetNZ
04 495 2118 (office) | +64 21 442 649 (mob) jordan@internetnz.net.nz Skype: jordancarter
A better world through a better Internet
_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community
participants (5)
-
Alan Greenberg -
Dr Eberhard W Lisse -
Greg Shatan -
Jordan Carter -
Seun Ojedeji