Separability process and role of community in decisions (was Re: Separability: picture of the relation of CWG's IFR & SCWG with CCWG process)
hi all, hi Avri Thanks for these diagrams, which I've had another look at today. I was drawn back to them because one of the "not closed" things in my mind is the role of the community as a decision-maker at the final approval stage of a transition of the Names IANA Functions - if that is recommended by a Special IFR. My reading of the CWG-Names final proposal is that the group was after a co-decision process - that both the ICANN Board, and the community organised through some mechanism, would have to approve separation before it could be done. This is similar to the approach we have used for changes to Fundamental Bylaws. I think with the Community Mechanism we have the vehicle to make the Community part of the co-decision. And through independent review of Board decisions or non-decisions, we have some tools as a community to deal with a Board part of the co-decision with which we don't agree. If people agree with this co-decision approach, my remaining question is which group is drafting the relevant bylaws - us, or the CWG. If people think actually there is meant to be a separate Community decision after the Board decision, they should say so now... Also, I wonder if the same sort of co-decision process is required for the formation of a Special IFR. My thought is not, consistent with Avri's slides. But keen on others' thoughts. cheers Jordan On 28 October 2015 at 07:38, Avri Doria <avri@acm.org> wrote:
Hi,
I have attempted to draw up a discussion set of slides on the connection between the CWG process for Separability and the CCWG accountability and enforcement measures.
The drive doc is open for comments:
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1kmDLv0yF41lb9OBlCKnl6o3TMps6AlTF8Njs...
I have also attached a PDF.
avri
Dear Jordan and Avri , Dear All, For the first part of the Question , who draft separation Bylaws? My suggestion is CWG start and sends its finding to CCWG For the second part of the question, we need to formally seek the views of the Board ( not individual Board but the entire Board) on the Process . My suggestion would be to start with a co-decision making., If wWe could handle the case in a murually acceptable manner with the Board after being informed of their views in a formal manner through a Note from Co-Chair . But if there is divergence, then we prefer that the last words to be given by CCWG ,i.e.,the Board start to decide and then CCWG consider the matter and make final decision ,as appropriate Regards Kavouss 2015-11-05 5:24 GMT+01:00 Jordan Carter <jordan@internetnz.net.nz>:
hi all, hi Avri
Thanks for these diagrams, which I've had another look at today. I was drawn back to them because one of the "not closed" things in my mind is the role of the community as a decision-maker at the final approval stage of a transition of the Names IANA Functions - if that is recommended by a Special IFR.
My reading of the CWG-Names final proposal is that the group was after a co-decision process - that both the ICANN Board, and the community organised through some mechanism, would have to approve separation before it could be done. This is similar to the approach we have used for changes to Fundamental Bylaws.
I think with the Community Mechanism we have the vehicle to make the Community part of the co-decision. And through independent review of Board decisions or non-decisions, we have some tools as a community to deal with a Board part of the co-decision with which we don't agree.
If people agree with this co-decision approach, my remaining question is which group is drafting the relevant bylaws - us, or the CWG.
If people think actually there is meant to be a separate Community decision after the Board decision, they should say so now...
Also, I wonder if the same sort of co-decision process is required for the formation of a Special IFR. My thought is not, consistent with Avri's slides. But keen on others' thoughts.
cheers Jordan
On 28 October 2015 at 07:38, Avri Doria <avri@acm.org> wrote:
Hi,
I have attempted to draw up a discussion set of slides on the connection between the CWG process for Separability and the CCWG accountability and enforcement measures.
The drive doc is open for comments:
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1kmDLv0yF41lb9OBlCKnl6o3TMps6AlTF8Njs...
I have also attached a PDF.
avri
_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community
I think our job is to carry out the "dependencies" of the CWG as faithfully as possible. We should not be interjecting our own opinions or re-doing the CWG's work. The answers to our questions should be found in the CWG's final report, and if there ambiguities, they should be referred back to the CWG for clarification. I've reviewed the CWG Final Report and I think the answers are fairly clear. You ask "I wonder if the same sort of co-decision process is required for the formation of a Special IFR." The CWG Final Report (para 124)states "In order to trigger a Special IFR, it would require a vote of both of the ccNSO and GNSO Councils (each by a supermajority vote according to their normal procedures for determining supermajority)." There is no mention of a Board role in the formation of a SIFR. This appears to be consistent with Avri's slides. As to the formation of a SCWG if recommended by the IFR, the Final Report states " If the IFR determines that a separation process is necessary, it will recommend the creation of a Separation Cross Community Working Group (SCWG). This recommendation will need to be approved by a supermajority of each of the GNSO and the ccNSO Councils, according to their normal procedures for determining supermajority, and will need to be approved by the ICANN Board after a public comment period, as well as a community mechanism derived from the CCWG-Accountability process. [57] <https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=53779816#_ftn57> A determination by the ICANN Board to not approve a SCWG that had been supported by a supermajority of the ccNSO and GNSO Councils will need to follow the same supermajority thresholds and consultation procedures as ICANN Board rejection (by a supermajority vote) of a PDP recommendation that is supported by a GNSO supermajority." Basically the same process would take place if the SCWG decided to recommend a separation. I'm not sure I would describe this as a co-decision process, but it does require approval of both the Board and the community, which I think would be done through the Community Forum and the Single Designator. As to a decision by the Board that the community disagrees with, the next steps would be those in the last sentence above, which I think would need to take place before any IRP or Board recall. The relative timing of the Board decision and the community decision is not entirely clear, but my reading and recollection is that it is intended to be simultaneous but separate. Finally, as to Bylaws, I would say that Bylaws relating to the community decision process should be drafted by the CCWG, since the performance of the community mechanism is uniquely the competency of this group. Other bylaws relating to the SIFR/SCWG/Separation process should be drafted by the CWG. I note that the CWG asked Sidley to come up with a draft plan for preparing the Bylaws, including their thoughts on division of labor between the CWG and CCWG. I don't have that at my fingertips, but that should be fairly dispositive, unless we (or the CWG) see something we disagree with. We should look at that ASAP. Greg I'm On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 11:24 PM, Jordan Carter <jordan@internetnz.net.nz> wrote:
hi all, hi Avri
Thanks for these diagrams, which I've had another look at today. I was drawn back to them because one of the "not closed" things in my mind is the role of the community as a decision-maker at the final approval stage of a transition of the Names IANA Functions - if that is recommended by a Special IFR.
My reading of the CWG-Names final proposal is that the group was after a co-decision process - that both the ICANN Board, and the community organised through some mechanism, would have to approve separation before it could be done. This is similar to the approach we have used for changes to Fundamental Bylaws.
I think with the Community Mechanism we have the vehicle to make the Community part of the co-decision. And through independent review of Board decisions or non-decisions, we have some tools as a community to deal with a Board part of the co-decision with which we don't agree.
If people agree with this co-decision approach, my remaining question is which group is drafting the relevant bylaws - us, or the CWG.
If people think actually there is meant to be a separate Community decision after the Board decision, they should say so now...
Also, I wonder if the same sort of co-decision process is required for the formation of a Special IFR. My thought is not, consistent with Avri's slides. But keen on others' thoughts.
cheers Jordan
On 28 October 2015 at 07:38, Avri Doria <avri@acm.org> wrote:
Hi,
I have attempted to draw up a discussion set of slides on the connection between the CWG process for Separability and the CCWG accountability and enforcement measures.
The drive doc is open for comments:
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1kmDLv0yF41lb9OBlCKnl6o3TMps6AlTF8Njs...
I have also attached a PDF.
avri
_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community
Greg, All: Thanks for this. It made me go and look at the text again. It is actually a subsequent stage - the selection of a new operator - that I had in the forefront of my mind, a few paragraphs later in Annex L: "The selection of a new operator to perform the IANA Naming Functions or other separation process will be subject to approval by the ICANN Board, and a community mechanism derived from the CCWG-Accountability process.[1] <#_ftn1> ------------------------------ [1] <#_ftnref1> This community mechanism could include ICANN membership, if ICANN were to become a membership organization per the CCWG-Accountability work efforts." My paste renumbered that footnote - it's actually footnote #62 in the CWG report. So I see two co-decisional type stages (after SO approvals) - the one you mention below, and the one I have pasted above. Agree with you that we are simply trying to meet CWG requirements not add to them. So let's see what Sidley comes up with for CWG in their first draft, by end of this week...? Jordan On 5 November 2015 at 19:13, Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc@gmail.com> wrote:
I think our job is to carry out the "dependencies" of the CWG as faithfully as possible. We should not be interjecting our own opinions or re-doing the CWG's work. The answers to our questions should be found in the CWG's final report, and if there ambiguities, they should be referred back to the CWG for clarification.
I've reviewed the CWG Final Report and I think the answers are fairly clear.
You ask "I wonder if the same sort of co-decision process is required for the formation of a Special IFR." The CWG Final Report (para 124)states "In order to trigger a Special IFR, it would require a vote of both of the ccNSO and GNSO Councils (each by a supermajority vote according to their normal procedures for determining supermajority)." There is no mention of a Board role in the formation of a SIFR. This appears to be consistent with Avri's slides.
As to the formation of a SCWG if recommended by the IFR, the Final Report states " If the IFR determines that a separation process is necessary, it will recommend the creation of a Separation Cross Community Working Group (SCWG). This recommendation will need to be approved by a supermajority of each of the GNSO and the ccNSO Councils, according to their normal procedures for determining supermajority, and will need to be approved by the ICANN Board after a public comment period, as well as a community mechanism derived from the CCWG-Accountability process. [57] <https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=53779816#_ftn57> A determination by the ICANN Board to not approve a SCWG that had been supported by a supermajority of the ccNSO and GNSO Councils will need to follow the same supermajority thresholds and consultation procedures as ICANN Board rejection (by a supermajority vote) of a PDP recommendation that is supported by a GNSO supermajority."
Basically the same process would take place if the SCWG decided to recommend a separation.
I'm not sure I would describe this as a co-decision process, but it does require approval of both the Board and the community, which I think would be done through the Community Forum and the Single Designator. As to a decision by the Board that the community disagrees with, the next steps would be those in the last sentence above, which I think would need to take place before any IRP or Board recall.
The relative timing of the Board decision and the community decision is not entirely clear, but my reading and recollection is that it is intended to be simultaneous but separate.
Finally, as to Bylaws, I would say that Bylaws relating to the community decision process should be drafted by the CCWG, since the performance of the community mechanism is uniquely the competency of this group. Other bylaws relating to the SIFR/SCWG/Separation process should be drafted by the CWG. I note that the CWG asked Sidley to come up with a draft plan for preparing the Bylaws, including their thoughts on division of labor between the CWG and CCWG. I don't have that at my fingertips, but that should be fairly dispositive, unless we (or the CWG) see something we disagree with. We should look at that ASAP.
Greg
I'm
On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 11:24 PM, Jordan Carter <jordan@internetnz.net.nz> wrote:
hi all, hi Avri
Thanks for these diagrams, which I've had another look at today. I was drawn back to them because one of the "not closed" things in my mind is the role of the community as a decision-maker at the final approval stage of a transition of the Names IANA Functions - if that is recommended by a Special IFR.
My reading of the CWG-Names final proposal is that the group was after a co-decision process - that both the ICANN Board, and the community organised through some mechanism, would have to approve separation before it could be done. This is similar to the approach we have used for changes to Fundamental Bylaws.
I think with the Community Mechanism we have the vehicle to make the Community part of the co-decision. And through independent review of Board decisions or non-decisions, we have some tools as a community to deal with a Board part of the co-decision with which we don't agree.
If people agree with this co-decision approach, my remaining question is which group is drafting the relevant bylaws - us, or the CWG.
If people think actually there is meant to be a separate Community decision after the Board decision, they should say so now...
Also, I wonder if the same sort of co-decision process is required for the formation of a Special IFR. My thought is not, consistent with Avri's slides. But keen on others' thoughts.
cheers Jordan
On 28 October 2015 at 07:38, Avri Doria <avri@acm.org> wrote:
Hi,
I have attempted to draw up a discussion set of slides on the connection between the CWG process for Separability and the CCWG accountability and enforcement measures.
The drive doc is open for comments:
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1kmDLv0yF41lb9OBlCKnl6o3TMps6AlTF8Njs...
I have also attached a PDF.
avri
_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community
-- Jordan Carter Chief Executive *InternetNZ* +64-4-495-2118 (office) | +64-21-442-649 (mob) Email: jordan@internetnz.net.nz Skype: jordancarter Web: www.internetnz.nz *A better world through a better Internet *
participants (3)
-
Greg Shatan -
Jordan Carter -
Kavouss Arasteh