Re: [CCWG-ACCT] [Acct-Legal] community powers comparison: designator & membership model - what powers can we create and how to enforce them?
Dear Holly and Rosemary, Please do review Robin’s table. I apologize for the delay on assignment and don’t expect you to have elaborated for our call tomorrow but rather give an initial review so we can further discuss in our call tomorrow. Best regards, León
El 14/04/2015, a las 16:42, List for the work of CCWG-Accountability Legal SubTeam <ccwg-accountability5@icann.org> escribió:
Happy to review with direction from Legal Subteam. Please provide direction ASAP. Holly
Sent with Good (www.good.com)
From: ccwg-accountability5-bounces@icann.org on behalf of List for the work of CCWG-Accountability Legal SubTeam Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 03:45:49 PM To: ccwg-accountability5@icann.org Cc: Accountability Cross Community Subject: Re: [Acct-Legal] [CCWG-ACCT] community powers comparison: designator & membership model - what powers can we create and how to enforce them?
Fantastic work Robin and much appreciated!
I echo Greg's comments concerning the role of litigation in both models. I do like the format and I think it would be a great idea to have it reviewed and improved upon, if necessary, by counsel, for distribution to the general list.
Best,
Ed
On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 8:19 PM, List for the work of CCWG-Accountability Legal SubTeam <ccwg-accountability5@icann.org <mailto:ccwg-accountability5@icann.org>> wrote: Robin,
Thank you for this. A great deal of effort clearly went into this and this should develop into a very useful tool. However, I think we will need to have this reviewed by legal counsel before we rely on it. Having reviewed this briefly, I am uncertain that at this stage this document accurately captures the legal advice, particularly with regard to how the rights can be enforced.
Specifically, this seems to give the impression that, if the membership model were chosen, the members would be limited to running off to court in most cases should rights need to be enforced. I'm fairly confident that is not the case. I believe that the remedies listed for the designator model, particularly changes to the bylaws and the IRP, are equally available in the member model. With regard to litigation, I think the distinction is that the designators have no ability to litigate on behalf of the corporation, while this is one possibility (but far from the only one) available to members. In other words, such litigation is an extra power, not the only power, available to members.
The Legal Sub Team (copied here) should discuss how to proceed.
Thank you again for taking the laboring oar in pulling this together!
Best regards,
Greg
On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 2:35 PM, Robin Gross <robin@ipjustice.org <mailto:robin@ipjustice.org>> wrote: Hello Team,
What we need to do is take a hard look at both the membership model and the designator model and understand what rights can be created and how will they be enforced. Once we understand what we *can* do, we need to look at the pros/cons of the different models and evaluate accordingly.
But first, we need to understand what *can* be done so we can discuss *if* we ought to do it and what is the best means.
So I've taken a first pass of each of the 6 community empowerment goals and created a comparison table to lay-out what rights can be created and how they can be enforced. I've combed through all the 200+ pages of legal memos, today's CCWG call, and calls of the legal sub-team to compile this info into one table so the models can begin to be evaluated side-by-side.
The doc is attached and also here is a link to the table comparing the 2 models: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1kkkRBpMUkTpD5_RP_Ogo1PTGzGt2kC6f1xoo... <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__docs.google.com_spreads...>
I am hopeful it can begin to help us to wrap our minds around what our goals are and how they could be accomplished by the two models at play.
Thanks, Robin
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I know this is bold, but is there any chance a reviewed copy might be available for discussion in WP1 on Friday? Many thanks Jordan On 15 April 2015 at 17:00, List for the work of CCWG-Accountability Legal SubTeam <ccwg-accountability5@icann.org> wrote:
Dear Holly and Rosemary,
Please do review Robin's table. I apologize for the delay on assignment and don't expect you to have elaborated for our call tomorrow but rather give an initial review so we can further discuss in our call tomorrow.
Best regards,
León
El 14/04/2015, a las 16:42, List for the work of CCWG-Accountability Legal SubTeam <ccwg-accountability5@icann.org> escribió:
Happy to review with direction from Legal Subteam. Please provide direction ASAP. Holly
Sent with Good (www.good.com)
------------------------------ *From:* ccwg-accountability5-bounces@icann.org on behalf of List for the work of CCWG-Accountability Legal SubTeam *Sent:* Tuesday, April 14, 2015 03:45:49 PM *To:* ccwg-accountability5@icann.org *Cc:* Accountability Cross Community *Subject:* Re: [Acct-Legal] [CCWG-ACCT] community powers comparison: designator & membership model - what powers can we create and how to enforce them?
Fantastic work Robin and much appreciated!
I echo Greg's comments concerning the role of litigation in both models. I do like the format and I think it would be a great idea to have it reviewed and improved upon, if necessary, by counsel, for distribution to the general list.
Best,
Ed
On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 8:19 PM, List for the work of CCWG-Accountability Legal SubTeam <ccwg-accountability5@icann.org> wrote:
Robin,
Thank you for this. A great deal of effort clearly went into this and this should develop into a very useful tool. However, I think we will need to have this reviewed by legal counsel before we rely on it. Having reviewed this briefly, I am uncertain that at this stage this document accurately captures the legal advice, particularly with regard to how the rights can be enforced.
Specifically, this seems to give the impression that, if the membership model were chosen, the members would be limited to running off to court in most cases should rights need to be enforced. I'm fairly confident that is not the case. I believe that the remedies listed for the designator model, particularly changes to the bylaws and the IRP, are equally available in the member model. With regard to litigation, I think the distinction is that the designators have no ability to litigate on behalf of the corporation, while this is one possibility (but far from the only one) available to members. In other words, such litigation is an extra power, not the only power, available to members.
The Legal Sub Team (copied here) should discuss how to proceed.
Thank you again for taking the laboring oar in pulling this together!
Best regards,
Greg
On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 2:35 PM, Robin Gross <robin@ipjustice.org> wrote:
Hello Team,
What we need to do is take a hard look at both the membership model and the designator model and understand what rights can be created and how will they be enforced. Once we understand what we *can* do, we need to look at the pros/cons of the different models and evaluate accordingly.
But first, we need to understand what *can* be done so we can discuss *if* we ought to do it and what is the best means.
So I've taken a first pass of each of the 6 community empowerment goals and created a comparison table to lay-out what rights can be created and how they can be enforced. I've combed through all the 200+ pages of legal memos, today's CCWG call, and calls of the legal sub-team to compile this info into one table so the models can begin to be evaluated side-by-side.
The doc is attached and also here is a link to the table comparing the 2 models:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1kkkRBpMUkTpD5_RP_Ogo1PTGzGt2kC6f1xoo... <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__docs.google.com_spreads...>
I am hopeful it can begin to help us to wrap our minds around what our goals are and how they could be accomplished by the two models at play.
Thanks, Robin
_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mm.icann.org_mailman_li...>
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-- Jordan Carter Chief Executive *InternetNZ* 04 495 2118 (office) | +64 21 442 649 (mob) jordan@internetnz.net.nz Skype: jordancarter *A better world through a better Internet *
Dear Holly and Rosemary, Would Jordan’s request be possible? Best regards, León
El 15/04/2015, a las 0:26, Jordan Carter <jordan@internetnz.net.nz> escribió:
I know this is bold, but is there any chance a reviewed copy might be available for discussion in WP1 on Friday?
Many thanks Jordan
On 15 April 2015 at 17:00, List for the work of CCWG-Accountability Legal SubTeam <ccwg-accountability5@icann.org <mailto:ccwg-accountability5@icann.org>> wrote: Dear Holly and Rosemary,
Please do review Robin’s table. I apologize for the delay on assignment and don’t expect you to have elaborated for our call tomorrow but rather give an initial review so we can further discuss in our call tomorrow.
Best regards,
León
El 14/04/2015, a las 16:42, List for the work of CCWG-Accountability Legal SubTeam <ccwg-accountability5@icann.org <mailto:ccwg-accountability5@icann.org>> escribió:
Happy to review with direction from Legal Subteam. Please provide direction ASAP. Holly
Sent with Good (www.good.com <http://www.good.com/>)
From: ccwg-accountability5-bounces@icann.org <mailto:ccwg-accountability5-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of List for the work of CCWG-Accountability Legal SubTeam Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 03:45:49 PM To: ccwg-accountability5@icann.org <mailto:ccwg-accountability5@icann.org> Cc: Accountability Cross Community Subject: Re: [Acct-Legal] [CCWG-ACCT] community powers comparison: designator & membership model - what powers can we create and how to enforce them?
Fantastic work Robin and much appreciated!
I echo Greg's comments concerning the role of litigation in both models. I do like the format and I think it would be a great idea to have it reviewed and improved upon, if necessary, by counsel, for distribution to the general list.
Best,
Ed
On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 8:19 PM, List for the work of CCWG-Accountability Legal SubTeam <ccwg-accountability5@icann.org <mailto:ccwg-accountability5@icann.org>> wrote: Robin,
Thank you for this. A great deal of effort clearly went into this and this should develop into a very useful tool. However, I think we will need to have this reviewed by legal counsel before we rely on it. Having reviewed this briefly, I am uncertain that at this stage this document accurately captures the legal advice, particularly with regard to how the rights can be enforced.
Specifically, this seems to give the impression that, if the membership model were chosen, the members would be limited to running off to court in most cases should rights need to be enforced. I'm fairly confident that is not the case. I believe that the remedies listed for the designator model, particularly changes to the bylaws and the IRP, are equally available in the member model. With regard to litigation, I think the distinction is that the designators have no ability to litigate on behalf of the corporation, while this is one possibility (but far from the only one) available to members. In other words, such litigation is an extra power, not the only power, available to members.
The Legal Sub Team (copied here) should discuss how to proceed.
Thank you again for taking the laboring oar in pulling this together!
Best regards,
Greg
On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 2:35 PM, Robin Gross <robin@ipjustice.org <mailto:robin@ipjustice.org>> wrote: Hello Team,
What we need to do is take a hard look at both the membership model and the designator model and understand what rights can be created and how will they be enforced. Once we understand what we *can* do, we need to look at the pros/cons of the different models and evaluate accordingly.
But first, we need to understand what *can* be done so we can discuss *if* we ought to do it and what is the best means.
So I've taken a first pass of each of the 6 community empowerment goals and created a comparison table to lay-out what rights can be created and how they can be enforced. I've combed through all the 200+ pages of legal memos, today's CCWG call, and calls of the legal sub-team to compile this info into one table so the models can begin to be evaluated side-by-side.
The doc is attached and also here is a link to the table comparing the 2 models: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1kkkRBpMUkTpD5_RP_Ogo1PTGzGt2kC6f1xoo... <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__docs.google.com_spreads...>
I am hopeful it can begin to help us to wrap our minds around what our goals are and how they could be accomplished by the two models at play.
Thanks, Robin
_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org <mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mm.icann.org_mailman_li...>
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****************************************************************************************************
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-- Jordan Carter
Chief Executive InternetNZ
04 495 2118 (office) | +64 21 442 649 (mob) jordan@internetnz.net.nz <mailto:jordan@internetnz.net.nz> Skype: jordancarter
A better world through a better Internet
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Dear Léon, dear subteam, dear counsel, I just posted to the general CCWG list my concerns about diving head-first into a comparison between the membership and designator models. I do feel like this is a discussion that we need to have and soon, but I was quite worried by a remark about the apparent incorporation requirement for the SO’s made during yesterday’s CCWG call. I feel like we should not lose sight of the prerequisites for each model – if they cannot be fulfilled, any discussion about the “how” will be in vain. That’s why I asked for input from the CCWG list in hopes of someone speaking up. I’ll also go through the transcript of yesterday’s call as soon as it is available to confirm whether my recollection of the call actually checks out. Best regards, Sabine Von: ccwg-accountability5-bounces@icann.org [mailto:ccwg-accountability5-bounces@icann.org] Im Auftrag von List for the work of CCWG-Accountability Legal SubTeam Gesendet: Mittwoch, 15. April 2015 07:01 An: ccwg-accountability5@icann.org Cc: Accountability Cross Community Betreff: Re: [Acct-Legal] [CCWG-ACCT] community powers comparison: designator & membership model - what powers can we create and how to enforce them? Dear Holly and Rosemary, Please do review Robin’s table. I apologize for the delay on assignment and don’t expect you to have elaborated for our call tomorrow but rather give an initial review so we can further discuss in our call tomorrow. Best regards, León El 14/04/2015, a las 16:42, List for the work of CCWG-Accountability Legal SubTeam <ccwg-accountability5@icann.org<mailto:ccwg-accountability5@icann.org>> escribió: Happy to review with direction from Legal Subteam. Please provide direction ASAP. Holly Sent with Good (www.good.com<http://www.good.com>) ________________________________ From: ccwg-accountability5-bounces@icann.org<mailto:ccwg-accountability5-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of List for the work of CCWG-Accountability Legal SubTeam Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 03:45:49 PM To: ccwg-accountability5@icann.org<mailto:ccwg-accountability5@icann.org> Cc: Accountability Cross Community Subject: Re: [Acct-Legal] [CCWG-ACCT] community powers comparison: designator & membership model - what powers can we create and how to enforce them? Fantastic work Robin and much appreciated! I echo Greg's comments concerning the role of litigation in both models. I do like the format and I think it would be a great idea to have it reviewed and improved upon, if necessary, by counsel, for distribution to the general list. Best, Ed On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 8:19 PM, List for the work of CCWG-Accountability Legal SubTeam <ccwg-accountability5@icann.org<mailto:ccwg-accountability5@icann.org>> wrote: Robin, Thank you for this. A great deal of effort clearly went into this and this should develop into a very useful tool. However, I think we will need to have this reviewed by legal counsel before we rely on it. Having reviewed this briefly, I am uncertain that at this stage this document accurately captures the legal advice, particularly with regard to how the rights can be enforced. Specifically, this seems to give the impression that, if the membership model were chosen, the members would be limited to running off to court in most cases should rights need to be enforced. I'm fairly confident that is not the case. I believe that the remedies listed for the designator model, particularly changes to the bylaws and the IRP, are equally available in the member model. With regard to litigation, I think the distinction is that the designators have no ability to litigate on behalf of the corporation, while this is one possibility (but far from the only one) available to members. In other words, such litigation is an extra power, not the only power, available to members. The Legal Sub Team (copied here) should discuss how to proceed. Thank you again for taking the laboring oar in pulling this together! Best regards, Greg On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 2:35 PM, Robin Gross <robin@ipjustice.org<mailto:robin@ipjustice.org>> wrote: Hello Team, What we need to do is take a hard look at both the membership model and the designator model and understand what rights can be created and how will they be enforced. Once we understand what we *can* do, we need to look at the pros/cons of the different models and evaluate accordingly. But first, we need to understand what *can* be done so we can discuss *if* we ought to do it and what is the best means. So I've taken a first pass of each of the 6 community empowerment goals and created a comparison table to lay-out what rights can be created and how they can be enforced. I've combed through all the 200+ pages of legal memos, today's CCWG call, and calls of the legal sub-team to compile this info into one table so the models can begin to be evaluated side-by-side. The doc is attached and also here is a link to the table comparing the 2 models: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1kkkRBpMUkTpD5_RP_Ogo1PTGzGt2kC6f1xooHfJXRBc/edit?usp=sharing<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__docs.google.com_spreadsheets_d_1kkkRBpMUkTpD5-5FRP-5FOgo1PTGzGt2kC6f1xooHfJXRBc_edit-3Fusp-3Dsharing&d=AwMFaQ&c=Od00qP2XTg0tXf_H69-T2w&r=1-1w8mU_eFprE2Nn9QnYf01XIV88MOwkXwHYEbF2Y_8&m=nyDQdlri5xYHMimBihFhuPRDmv90jS4gFWrucTjoxrM&s=nn6UHsMF-YpzD09pBcaHOa5b41fXAi_G4BJGOV2NU4A&e=> I am hopeful it can begin to help us to wrap our minds around what our goals are and how they could be accomplished by the two models at play. Thanks, Robin _______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org<mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mm.icann.org_mailman_listinfo_accountability-2Dcross-2Dcommunity&d=AwMFaQ&c=Od00qP2XTg0tXf_H69-T2w&r=1-1w8mU_eFprE2Nn9QnYf01XIV88MOwkXwHYEbF2Y_8&m=nyDQdlri5xYHMimBihFhuPRDmv90jS4gFWrucTjoxrM&s=US-o0Z7uMZoAN-IFJy0s1Z5jtYu6DE9E869zMvn679M&e=> _______________________________________________ Ccwg-accountability5 mailing list Ccwg-accountability5@icann.org<mailto:Ccwg-accountability5@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ccwg-accountability5<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mm.icann.org_mailman_listinfo_ccwg-2Daccountability5&d=AwMFaQ&c=Od00qP2XTg0tXf_H69-T2w&r=1-1w8mU_eFprE2Nn9QnYf01XIV88MOwkXwHYEbF2Y_8&m=nyDQdlri5xYHMimBihFhuPRDmv90jS4gFWrucTjoxrM&s=z40T48cuRcF7fOgJV5m84c2SuxHa3XHchkKdao9t6Yo&e=> **************************************************************************************************** This e-mail is sent by a law firm and may contain information that is privileged or confidential. 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participants (3)
-
Jordan Carter -
León Felipe Sánchez Ambía -
Sabine.Meyer＠bmwi.bund.de