Re: [ALAC] Meeting with Goran 22 September 16.00utc.
Maureen, please do not say things like "But what replaces our more accustomed reward for effort - of attending an ICANN meeting in some exotic place around the world?"!! I am sure that for some, it is quite true that they volunteer for the travel rewards, but it is NOT the case for many, and it reflects SO BADLY on us. I have been to MANY exotic places on ICANN's dime. only rarely have I taken the time to experience them. And I have been to MANY places that I had no interest in visiting. If every ICANN meeting were held at a Los Angeles airport hotel, my attendance would not be different, and I suspect that is the same for you. So let's not encourage the concept that we consider travel a reward. Alan At 2020-09-17 09:02 PM, Maureen Hilyard wrote:
Hi everyone
I noted that in the threads related to discussions with Goran (and wrt the ALAC-Board meeting at ICANN69) there were references made to matters that were raised in the Workload Survey so that I am bending towards using this interaction with Goran as an opportunity to address some of our workload issues related to ICANN meetings and our work with ICANN in general.
I sent the Workload survey to Goran and others and soon after, had an opportunity to speak to it during our 1:1 discussion (as one of his normal SOAC Chair chats). He was sympathetic to the workload issues that were raised, and I asked whether perhaps ICANN should look at how they might appropriately recognise the work that is being done by some very active At-Large participants at their own cost - of precious down-time, energy, internet costs as well as the intellectual contribution they make on a weekly basis, all for the benefit of ICANN, with no expectation of compensation.
Is it really acceptable in this day and age that people are expected to have such a high level of input into an important organisational output, for free? Especially in light of what many are also experiencing with regards to pandemic conditions and the impacts it is having on their daily lives? That volunteers across ICANN remain committed to this level of giving is really amazing. But what replaces our more accustomed reward for effort - of attending an ICANN meeting in some exotic place around the world? In the middle of a pandemic, do we have any answers?
Another topical discussion also mentioned in the Workload survey, and which was also raised in our SOAC Chairs meeting this week, was the idea of regional meetings. Goran suggested that things may have to be different for the future of ICANN meetings. If you have any suggestions as alternatives, then I am sure that he would be happy to hear them. I am re-attaching the report in case you can't find it. The discussion should be interesting.
Just to add, Leon will also be at the meeting, but he will be giving his usual update on Board activities. Maybe he will have further news on the Internet Grant.
Comments welcome. Maureen Content-Type: application/pdf; name="At Large Meeting Workload Survey results Aug 2020-2.pdf" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="At Large Meeting Workload Survey results Aug 2020-2.pdf" Content-ID: <f_kf7co9bv0> X-Attachment-Id: f_kf7co9bv0
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Agreed. If anything, we might say that the F2F meetings are an incentive to participate, interest with others, network, etc., but travel is the wrong thing to say, I think. Jonathan Zuck Executive Director Innovators Network Foundation www.InnovatorsNetwork.org<http://www.InnovatorsNetwork.org> ________________________________ From: ALAC <alac-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> on behalf of Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> Sent: Friday, September 18, 2020 1:05:15 PM To: Maureen Hilyard <maureen.hilyard@gmail.com>; ALAC <alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Subject: Re: [ALAC] Meeting with Goran 22 September 16.00utc. Maureen, please do not say things like "But what replaces our more accustomed reward for effort - of attending an ICANN meeting in some exotic place around the world?"!! I am sure that for some, it is quite true that they volunteer for the travel rewards, but it is NOT the case for many, and it reflects SO BADLY on us. I have been to MANY exotic places on ICANN's dime. only rarely have I taken the time to experience them. And I have been to MANY places that I had no interest in visiting. If every ICANN meeting were held at a Los Angeles airport hotel, my attendance would not be different, and I suspect that is the same for you. So let's not encourage the concept that we consider travel a reward. Alan At 2020-09-17 09:02 PM, Maureen Hilyard wrote:
Hi everyone
I noted that in the threads related to discussions with Goran (and wrt the ALAC-Board meeting at ICANN69) there were references made to matters that were raised in the Workload Survey so that I am bending towards using this interaction with Goran as an opportunity to address some of our workload issues related to ICANN meetings and our work with ICANN in general.
I sent the Workload survey to Goran and others and soon after, had an opportunity to speak to it during our 1:1 discussion (as one of his normal SOAC Chair chats). He was sympathetic to the workload issues that were raised, and I asked whether perhaps ICANN should look at how they might appropriately recognise the work that is being done by some very active At-Large participants at their own cost - of precious down-time, energy, internet costs as well as the intellectual contribution they make on a weekly basis, all for the benefit of ICANN, with no expectation of compensation.
Is it really acceptable in this day and age that people are expected to have such a high level of input into an important organisational output, for free? Especially in light of what many are also experiencing with regards to pandemic conditions and the impacts it is having on their daily lives? That volunteers across ICANN remain committed to this level of giving is really amazing. But what replaces our more accustomed reward for effort - of attending an ICANN meeting in some exotic place around the world? In the middle of a pandemic, do we have any answers?
Another topical discussion also mentioned in the Workload survey, and which was also raised in our SOAC Chairs meeting this week, was the idea of regional meetings. Goran suggested that things may have to be different for the future of ICANN meetings. If you have any suggestions as alternatives, then I am sure that he would be happy to hear them. I am re-attaching the report in case you can't find it. The discussion should be interesting.
Just to add, Leon will also be at the meeting, but he will be giving his usual update on Board activities. Maybe he will have further news on the Internet Grant.
Comments welcome. Maureen Content-Type: application/pdf; name="At Large Meeting Workload Survey results Aug 2020-2.pdf" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="At Large Meeting Workload Survey results Aug 2020-2.pdf" Content-ID: <f_kf7co9bv0> X-Attachment-Id: f_kf7co9bv0
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I very much agree with Alan. Travel is necessary part of our volunteer work, not a reward. However exotic the venues, we’re mostly sitting in windowless rooms and actually working. Plus spending days in transit to get there and back. Working togethe face to face three times a year has created this extraordinarily functional global community that, for a time, can also sustain itself by virtual means only. We still remember what people look like and see their body language when we listen to them on the Zoom. But if we don’t go back to physical meetings soon, memories fade, links start eroding and entropy may set in. Yrjö On 18. Sep 2020, at 21.30, Jonathan Zuck <JZuck@innovatorsnetwork.org<mailto:JZuck@innovatorsnetwork.org>> wrote: Agreed. If anything, we might say that the F2F meetings are an incentive to participate, interest with others, network, etc., but travel is the wrong thing to say, I think. Jonathan Zuck Executive Director Innovators Network Foundation www.InnovatorsNetwork.org<https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.innovat...> ________________________________ From: ALAC <alac-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org<mailto:alac-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org>> on behalf of Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca<mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca>> Sent: Friday, September 18, 2020 1:05:15 PM To: Maureen Hilyard <maureen.hilyard@gmail.com<mailto:maureen.hilyard@gmail.com>>; ALAC <alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org<mailto:alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org>> Subject: Re: [ALAC] Meeting with Goran 22 September 16.00utc. Maureen, please do not say things like "But what replaces our more accustomed reward for effort - of attending an ICANN meeting in some exotic place around the world?"!! I am sure that for some, it is quite true that they volunteer for the travel rewards, but it is NOT the case for many, and it reflects SO BADLY on us. I have been to MANY exotic places on ICANN's dime. only rarely have I taken the time to experience them. And I have been to MANY places that I had no interest in visiting. If every ICANN meeting were held at a Los Angeles airport hotel, my attendance would not be different, and I suspect that is the same for you. So let's not encourage the concept that we consider travel a reward. Alan At 2020-09-17 09:02 PM, Maureen Hilyard wrote:
Hi everyone
I noted that in the threads related to discussions with Goran (and wrt the ALAC-Board meeting at ICANN69) there were references made to matters that were raised in the Workload Survey so that I am bending towards using this interaction with Goran as an opportunity to address some of our workload issues related to ICANN meetings and our work with ICANN in general.
I sent the Workload survey to Goran and others and soon after, had an opportunity to speak to it during our 1:1 discussion (as one of his normal SOAC Chair chats). He was sympathetic to the workload issues that were raised, and I asked whether perhaps ICANN should look at how they might appropriately recognise the work that is being done by some very active At-Large participants at their own cost - of precious down-time, energy, internet costs as well as the intellectual contribution they make on a weekly basis, all for the benefit of ICANN, with no expectation of compensation.
Is it really acceptable in this day and age that people are expected to have such a high level of input into an important organisational output, for free? Especially in light of what many are also experiencing with regards to pandemic conditions and the impacts it is having on their daily lives? That volunteers across ICANN remain committed to this level of giving is really amazing. But what replaces our more accustomed reward for effort - of attending an ICANN meeting in some exotic place around the world? In the middle of a pandemic, do we have any answers?
Another topical discussion also mentioned in the Workload survey, and which was also raised in our SOAC Chairs meeting this week, was the idea of regional meetings. Goran suggested that things may have to be different for the future of ICANN meetings. If you have any suggestions as alternatives, then I am sure that he would be happy to hear them. I am re-attaching the report in case you can't find it. The discussion should be interesting.
Just to add, Leon will also be at the meeting, but he will be giving his usual update on Board activities. Maybe he will have further news on the Internet Grant.
Comments welcome. Maureen Content-Type: application/pdf; name="At Large Meeting Workload Survey results Aug 2020-2.pdf" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="At Large Meeting Workload Survey results Aug 2020-2.pdf" Content-ID: <f_kf7co9bv0> X-Attachment-Id: f_kf7co9bv0
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You said it so well, Yrjo, I totally agree. On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 9:23 AM Yrjö Länsipuro <yrjo_lansipuro@hotmail.com> wrote:
I very much agree with Alan. Travel is necessary part of our volunteer work, not a reward. However exotic the venues, we’re mostly sitting in windowless rooms and actually working. Plus spending days in transit to get there and back.
Working togethe face to face three times a year has created this extraordinarily functional global community that, for a time, can also sustain itself by virtual means only. We still remember what people look like and see their body language when we listen to them on the Zoom. But if we don’t go back to physical meetings soon, memories fade, links start eroding and entropy may set in.
Yrjö
On 18. Sep 2020, at 21.30, Jonathan Zuck <JZuck@innovatorsnetwork.org> wrote:
Agreed. If anything, we might say that the F2F meetings are an incentive to participate, interest with others, network, etc., but travel is the wrong thing to say, I think.
Jonathan Zuck Executive Director Innovators Network Foundation www.InnovatorsNetwork.org <https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.innovat...>
------------------------------ *From:* ALAC <alac-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> on behalf of Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> *Sent:* Friday, September 18, 2020 1:05:15 PM *To:* Maureen Hilyard <maureen.hilyard@gmail.com>; ALAC < alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [ALAC] Meeting with Goran 22 September 16.00utc.
Maureen, please do not say things like "But what replaces our more accustomed reward for effort - of attending an ICANN meeting in some exotic place around the world?"!!
I am sure that for some, it is quite true that they volunteer for the travel rewards, but it is NOT the case for many, and it reflects SO BADLY on us.
I have been to MANY exotic places on ICANN's dime. only rarely have I taken the time to experience them. And I have been to MANY places that I had no interest in visiting. If every ICANN meeting were held at a Los Angeles airport hotel, my attendance would not be different, and I suspect that is the same for you.
So let's not encourage the concept that we consider travel a reward.
Alan
At 2020-09-17 09:02 PM, Maureen Hilyard wrote:
Hi everyone
I noted that in the threads related to discussions with Goran (and wrt the ALAC-Board meeting at ICANN69) there were references made to matters that were raised in the Workload Survey so that I am bending towards using this interaction with Goran as an opportunity to address some of our workload issues related to ICANN meetings and our work with ICANN in general.
I sent the Workload survey to Goran and others and soon after, had an opportunity to speak to it during our 1:1 discussion (as one of his normal SOAC Chair chats). He was sympathetic to the workload issues that were raised, and I asked whether perhaps ICANN should look at how they might appropriately recognise the work that is being done by some very active At-Large participants at their own cost - of precious down-time, energy, internet costs as well as the intellectual contribution they make on a weekly basis, all for the benefit of ICANN, with no expectation of compensation.
Is it really acceptable in this day and age that people are expected to have such a high level of input into an important organisational output, for free? Especially in light of what many are also experiencing with regards to pandemic conditions and the impacts it is having on their daily lives? That volunteers across ICANN remain committed to this level of giving is really amazing. But what replaces our more accustomed reward for effort - of attending an ICANN meeting in some exotic place around the world? In the middle of a pandemic, do we have any answers?
Another topical discussion also mentioned in the Workload survey, and which was also raised in our SOAC Chairs meeting this week, was the idea of regional meetings. Goran suggested that things may have to be different for the future of ICANN meetings. If you have any suggestions as alternatives, then I am sure that he would be happy to hear them. I am re-attaching the report in case you can't find it. The discussion should be interesting.
Just to add, Leon will also be at the meeting, but he will be giving his usual update on Board activities. Maybe he will have further news on the Internet Grant.
Comments welcome. Maureen Content-Type: application/pdf; name="At Large Meeting Workload Survey results Aug 2020-2.pdf" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="At Large Meeting Workload Survey results Aug 2020-2.pdf" Content-ID: <f_kf7co9bv0> X-Attachment-Id: f_kf7co9bv0
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Hi Alan LOL. I should have put the "exotic places" comment in speech marks because that is the perception of many - that travel is a perk. And some take time before or after meetings to take advantage of the venue wherever it is. This could be considered a reward. I have done the same with colleagues myself thanks to ICANN. But for me the real bonus of attending an ICANN meeting has been the chance to spend any down-time with colleagues who have now become friends, wherever the meeting takes place. It has already been hinted that the pandemic has changed the way ICANN meetings will look in the future. How do we see it will be? M On Fri, 18 Sep 2020, 8:01 am Alan Greenberg, <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> wrote:
Maureen, please do not say things like "But what replaces our more accustomed reward for effort - of attending an ICANN meeting in some exotic place around the world?"!!
I am sure that for some, it is quite true that they volunteer for the travel rewards, but it is NOT the case for many, and it reflects SO BADLY on us.
I have been to MANY exotic places on ICANN's dime. only rarely have I taken the time to experience them. And I have been to MANY places that I had no interest in visiting. If every ICANN meeting were held at a Los Angeles airport hotel, my attendance would not be different, and I suspect that is the same for you.
So let's not encourage the concept that we consider travel a reward.
Alan
At 2020-09-17 09:02 PM, Maureen Hilyard wrote:
Hi everyone
I noted that in the threads related to discussions with Goran (and wrt the ALAC-Board meeting at ICANN69) there were references made to matters that were raised in the Workload Survey so that I am bending towards using this interaction with Goran as an opportunity to address some of our workload issues related to ICANN meetings and our work with ICANN in general.
I sent the Workload survey to Goran and others and soon after, had an opportunity to speak to it during our 1:1 discussion (as one of his normal SOAC Chair chats). He was sympathetic to the workload issues that were raised, and I asked whether perhaps ICANN should look at how they might appropriately recognise the work that is being done by some very active At-Large participants at their own cost - of precious down-time, energy, internet costs as well as the intellectual contribution they make on a weekly basis, all for the benefit of ICANN, with no expectation of compensation.
Is it really acceptable in this day and age that people are expected to have such a high level of input into an important organisational output, for free? Especially in light of what many are also experiencing with regards to pandemic conditions and the impacts it is having on their daily lives? That volunteers across ICANN remain committed to this level of giving is really amazing. But what replaces our more accustomed reward for effort - of attending an ICANN meeting in some exotic place around the world? In the middle of a pandemic, do we have any answers?
Another topical discussion also mentioned in the Workload survey, and which was also raised in our SOAC Chairs meeting this week, was the idea of regional meetings. Goran suggested that things may have to be different for the future of ICANN meetings. If you have any suggestions as alternatives, then I am sure that he would be happy to hear them. I am re-attaching the report in case you can't find it. The discussion should be interesting.
Just to add, Leon will also be at the meeting, but he will be giving his usual update on Board activities. Maybe he will have further news on the Internet Grant.
Comments welcome. Maureen Content-Type: application/pdf; name="At Large Meeting Workload Survey results Aug 2020-2.pdf" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="At Large Meeting Workload Survey results Aug 2020-2.pdf" Content-ID: <f_kf7co9bv0> X-Attachment-Id: f_kf7co9bv0
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_______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
"travel is a perk" is a derogatory way of referring to the ALAC. If I was to bill every hour that I spend volunteering for At-Large and the days spent at ICANN meetings, I would have enough money in my pocket to go to better places, better hotels and do better things than staying in a windowless, frozen room for 10 hours a day. I don't do that because a. I believe in making a difference and b. I enjoy the company of people that have become friends Kindest regards, Olivier On 18/09/2020 20:38, Maureen Hilyard wrote:
Hi Alan
LOL. I should have put the "exotic places" comment in speech marks because that is the perception of many - that travel is a perk. And some take time before or after meetings to take advantage of the venue wherever it is. This could be considered a reward. I have done the same with colleagues myself thanks to ICANN. But for me the real bonus of attending an ICANN meeting has been the chance to spend any down-time with colleagues who have now become friends, wherever the meeting takes place.
It has already been hinted that the pandemic has changed the way ICANN meetings will look in the future. How do we see it will be?
M
On Fri, 18 Sep 2020, 8:01 am Alan Greenberg, <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca <mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca>> wrote:
Maureen, please do not say things like "But what replaces our more accustomed reward for effort - of attending an ICANN meeting in some exotic place around the world?"!!
I am sure that for some, it is quite true that they volunteer for the travel rewards, but it is NOT the case for many, and it reflects SO BADLY on us.
I have been to MANY exotic places on ICANN's dime. only rarely have I taken the time to experience them. And I have been to MANY places that I had no interest in visiting. If every ICANN meeting were held at a Los Angeles airport hotel, my attendance would not be different, and I suspect that is the same for you.
So let's not encourage the concept that we consider travel a reward.
Alan
At 2020-09-17 09:02 PM, Maureen Hilyard wrote: >Hi everyone > >I noted that in the threads related to discussions with Goran (and >wrt the ALAC-Board meeting at ICANN69) there were references made to >matters that were raised in the Workload Survey so that I am bending >towards using this interaction with Goran as an opportunity to >address some of our workload issues related to ICANN meetings and >our work with ICANN in general. > >I sent the Workload survey to Goran and others and soon after, had >an opportunity to speak to it during our 1:1 discussion (as one of >his normal SOAC Chair chats). He was sympathetic to the workload >issues that were raised, and I asked whether perhaps ICANN should >look at how they might appropriately recognise the work that is >being done by some very active At-Large participants at their own >cost - of precious down-time, energy, internet costs as well as the >intellectual contribution they make on a weekly basis, all for the >benefit of ICANN, with no expectation of compensation. > >Is it really acceptable in this day and age that people are expected >to have such a high level of input into an important organisational >output, for free? Especially in light of what many are also >experiencing with regards to pandemic conditions and the impacts it >is having on their daily lives? That volunteers across ICANN remain >committed to this level of giving is really amazing. But what >replaces our more accustomed reward for effort - of attending an >ICANN meeting in some exotic place around the world? In the middle >of a pandemic, do we have any answers? > >Another topical discussion also mentioned in the Workload survey, >and which was also raised in our SOAC Chairs meeting this week, was >the idea of regional meetings. Goran suggested that things may have >to be different for the future of ICANN meetings. If you have any >suggestions as alternatives, then I am sure that he would be happy >to hear them. I am re-attaching the report in case you can't find >it. The discussion should be interesting. > >Just to add, Leon will also be at the meeting, but he will be giving >his usual update on Board activities. Maybe he will have further >news on the Internet Grant. > >Comments welcome. >Maureen >Content-Type: application/pdf; > name="At Large Meeting Workload Survey results Aug 2020-2.pdf" >Content-Disposition: attachment; > filename="At Large Meeting Workload Survey results Aug 2020-2.pdf" >Content-ID: <f_kf7co9bv0> >X-Attachment-Id: f_kf7co9bv0 > >_______________________________________________ >ALAC mailing list >ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org <mailto:ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org> >https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac > >At-Large Online: http://www.atlarge.icann.org >ALAC Working Wiki: >https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALA...) >_______________________________________________ >By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of >your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list >accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy >(https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of >Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the >Mailman link above to change your membership status or >configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style >delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
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The record will show my position on volunteer time etc. etc. etc. I am on record stating my unalterable position that without a value for both time and treasure injected by volunteers, the costs as published for the ICANN world are largely under-reported. At the risk at getting into a cass-cass, I summarily reject these notions for cause: a) we cannot put a value on volunteer time b) that travel for ICANN meetings is a perk c) any attempt to place a value on volunteer time is a third rail in ICANN politics. Rational minds would not wish to argue that there are volunteers whose compensated day job is to participate in names and numbers policy development. If you have been around for a few years you would know some. I have sat, shoulder to shoulder, with people compensated in the high 6-figures to do what we are doing. It is irrefutable that there are volunteers, such as I am, who are not paid to participate. So it becomes a measure of intellectual dishonesty to deny the facts as we know them. I am a knowledge worker. I acquire knowledge about this and that, package and sell to the highest bidder for fee. I have before now mocked how so easy it is, for example, to give an estimate of the effort in time to be an ALAC member. But all of a sudden yet sentient people contemplating an algorithm that places a value on even that time commitment become cockeyed. Very strange indeed. Carlton ============================== *Carlton A Samuels* *Mobile: 876-818-1799Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* ============================= On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 2:00 PM Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond <ocl@gih.com> wrote:
"travel is a perk" is a derogatory way of referring to the ALAC. If I was to bill every hour that I spend volunteering for At-Large and the days spent at ICANN meetings, I would have enough money in my pocket to go to better places, better hotels and do better things than staying in a windowless, frozen room for 10 hours a day. I don't do that because a. I believe in making a difference and b. I enjoy the company of people that have become friends Kindest regards,
Olivier
On 18/09/2020 20:38, Maureen Hilyard wrote:
Hi Alan
LOL. I should have put the "exotic places" comment in speech marks because that is the perception of many - that travel is a perk. And some take time before or after meetings to take advantage of the venue wherever it is. This could be considered a reward. I have done the same with colleagues myself thanks to ICANN. But for me the real bonus of attending an ICANN meeting has been the chance to spend any down-time with colleagues who have now become friends, wherever the meeting takes place.
It has already been hinted that the pandemic has changed the way ICANN meetings will look in the future. How do we see it will be?
M
On Fri, 18 Sep 2020, 8:01 am Alan Greenberg, <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> wrote:
Maureen, please do not say things like "But what replaces our more accustomed reward for effort - of attending an ICANN meeting in some exotic place around the world?"!!
I am sure that for some, it is quite true that they volunteer for the travel rewards, but it is NOT the case for many, and it reflects SO BADLY on us.
I have been to MANY exotic places on ICANN's dime. only rarely have I taken the time to experience them. And I have been to MANY places that I had no interest in visiting. If every ICANN meeting were held at a Los Angeles airport hotel, my attendance would not be different, and I suspect that is the same for you.
So let's not encourage the concept that we consider travel a reward.
Alan
At 2020-09-17 09:02 PM, Maureen Hilyard wrote:
Hi everyone
I noted that in the threads related to discussions with Goran (and wrt the ALAC-Board meeting at ICANN69) there were references made to matters that were raised in the Workload Survey so that I am bending towards using this interaction with Goran as an opportunity to address some of our workload issues related to ICANN meetings and our work with ICANN in general.
I sent the Workload survey to Goran and others and soon after, had an opportunity to speak to it during our 1:1 discussion (as one of his normal SOAC Chair chats). He was sympathetic to the workload issues that were raised, and I asked whether perhaps ICANN should look at how they might appropriately recognise the work that is being done by some very active At-Large participants at their own cost - of precious down-time, energy, internet costs as well as the intellectual contribution they make on a weekly basis, all for the benefit of ICANN, with no expectation of compensation.
Is it really acceptable in this day and age that people are expected to have such a high level of input into an important organisational output, for free? Especially in light of what many are also experiencing with regards to pandemic conditions and the impacts it is having on their daily lives? That volunteers across ICANN remain committed to this level of giving is really amazing. But what replaces our more accustomed reward for effort - of attending an ICANN meeting in some exotic place around the world? In the middle of a pandemic, do we have any answers?
Another topical discussion also mentioned in the Workload survey, and which was also raised in our SOAC Chairs meeting this week, was the idea of regional meetings. Goran suggested that things may have to be different for the future of ICANN meetings. If you have any suggestions as alternatives, then I am sure that he would be happy to hear them. I am re-attaching the report in case you can't find it. The discussion should be interesting.
Just to add, Leon will also be at the meeting, but he will be giving his usual update on Board activities. Maybe he will have further news on the Internet Grant.
Comments welcome. Maureen Content-Type: application/pdf; name="At Large Meeting Workload Survey results Aug 2020-2.pdf" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="At Large Meeting Workload Survey results Aug 2020-2.pdf" Content-ID: <f_kf7co9bv0> X-Attachment-Id: f_kf7co9bv0
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The discussion is so strong about Volunteer motivation. Probably we should be asking what is the motivational factor behind the high levels of Volunteer engagement amidst the challenges that they encounter in their day to day lives, whether job or families or social factors. According to Maslows theory of Motivation - Maslow proposed that motivation is the result of a person's attempt at fulfilling five basic needs: physiological, safety, social, esteem and self-actualization. According to Maslow, these needs can create internal pressures that can influence a person's behavior. This I believe also applies to our volunteer community. The Pandemic has also shown the value that the org has on volunteers. Is the volunteering based on the travel Perk, this varies on any volunteer. Many groan with pain and fear speak about their pain on the record. @Glenn McKnight <mcknight.glenn@gmail.com> has a very good experience of this. And yet Volunteer effort is sometimes abused. There is a need to revisit the value of volunteers and also how Volunteers can be motivated in this community. Daniel On Mon, 21 Sep 2020 at 04:21, Carlton Samuels <carlton.samuels@gmail.com> wrote:
The record will show my position on volunteer time etc. etc. etc. I am on record stating my unalterable position that without a value for both time and treasure injected by volunteers, the costs as published for the ICANN world are largely under-reported.
At the risk at getting into a cass-cass, I summarily reject these notions for cause: a) we cannot put a value on volunteer time b) that travel for ICANN meetings is a perk c) any attempt to place a value on volunteer time is a third rail in ICANN politics.
Rational minds would not wish to argue that there are volunteers whose compensated day job is to participate in names and numbers policy development. If you have been around for a few years you would know some. I have sat, shoulder to shoulder, with people compensated in the high 6-figures to do what we are doing. It is irrefutable that there are volunteers, such as I am, who are not paid to participate. So it becomes a measure of intellectual dishonesty to deny the facts as we know them.
I am a knowledge worker. I acquire knowledge about this and that, package and sell to the highest bidder for fee. I have before now mocked how so easy it is, for example, to give an estimate of the effort in time to be an ALAC member. But all of a sudden yet sentient people contemplating an algorithm that places a value on even that time commitment become cockeyed.
Very strange indeed. Carlton
============================== *Carlton A Samuels*
*Mobile: 876-818-1799Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* =============================
On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 2:00 PM Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond <ocl@gih.com> wrote:
"travel is a perk" is a derogatory way of referring to the ALAC. If I was to bill every hour that I spend volunteering for At-Large and the days spent at ICANN meetings, I would have enough money in my pocket to go to better places, better hotels and do better things than staying in a windowless, frozen room for 10 hours a day. I don't do that because a. I believe in making a difference and b. I enjoy the company of people that have become friends Kindest regards,
Olivier
On 18/09/2020 20:38, Maureen Hilyard wrote:
Hi Alan
LOL. I should have put the "exotic places" comment in speech marks because that is the perception of many - that travel is a perk. And some take time before or after meetings to take advantage of the venue wherever it is. This could be considered a reward. I have done the same with colleagues myself thanks to ICANN. But for me the real bonus of attending an ICANN meeting has been the chance to spend any down-time with colleagues who have now become friends, wherever the meeting takes place.
It has already been hinted that the pandemic has changed the way ICANN meetings will look in the future. How do we see it will be?
M
On Fri, 18 Sep 2020, 8:01 am Alan Greenberg, <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> wrote:
Maureen, please do not say things like "But what replaces our more accustomed reward for effort - of attending an ICANN meeting in some exotic place around the world?"!!
I am sure that for some, it is quite true that they volunteer for the travel rewards, but it is NOT the case for many, and it reflects SO BADLY on us.
I have been to MANY exotic places on ICANN's dime. only rarely have I taken the time to experience them. And I have been to MANY places that I had no interest in visiting. If every ICANN meeting were held at a Los Angeles airport hotel, my attendance would not be different, and I suspect that is the same for you.
So let's not encourage the concept that we consider travel a reward.
Alan
At 2020-09-17 09:02 PM, Maureen Hilyard wrote:
Hi everyone
I noted that in the threads related to discussions with Goran (and wrt the ALAC-Board meeting at ICANN69) there were references made to matters that were raised in the Workload Survey so that I am bending towards using this interaction with Goran as an opportunity to address some of our workload issues related to ICANN meetings and our work with ICANN in general.
I sent the Workload survey to Goran and others and soon after, had an opportunity to speak to it during our 1:1 discussion (as one of his normal SOAC Chair chats). He was sympathetic to the workload issues that were raised, and I asked whether perhaps ICANN should look at how they might appropriately recognise the work that is being done by some very active At-Large participants at their own cost - of precious down-time, energy, internet costs as well as the intellectual contribution they make on a weekly basis, all for the benefit of ICANN, with no expectation of compensation.
Is it really acceptable in this day and age that people are expected to have such a high level of input into an important organisational output, for free? Especially in light of what many are also experiencing with regards to pandemic conditions and the impacts it is having on their daily lives? That volunteers across ICANN remain committed to this level of giving is really amazing. But what replaces our more accustomed reward for effort - of attending an ICANN meeting in some exotic place around the world? In the middle of a pandemic, do we have any answers?
Another topical discussion also mentioned in the Workload survey, and which was also raised in our SOAC Chairs meeting this week, was the idea of regional meetings. Goran suggested that things may have to be different for the future of ICANN meetings. If you have any suggestions as alternatives, then I am sure that he would be happy to hear them. I am re-attaching the report in case you can't find it. The discussion should be interesting.
Just to add, Leon will also be at the meeting, but he will be giving his usual update on Board activities. Maybe he will have further news on the Internet Grant.
Comments welcome. Maureen Content-Type: application/pdf; name="At Large Meeting Workload Survey results Aug 2020-2.pdf" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="At Large Meeting Workload Survey results Aug 2020-2.pdf" Content-ID: <f_kf7co9bv0> X-Attachment-Id: f_kf7co9bv0
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Greetings colleagues, Great discussion going on here. While most of us are in this for the greater good 'Internet for everyone' measuring what it takes would be really helpful in determining how our output can be improved. This discussion is a step in the right direction. Maybe a short survey to gauge our motivations would be ideal to tease out some of the nuances alluded to by @DANIEL NANGHAKA <dndannang@gmail.com> (Maslows school of thought). This information will certainly be valuable to ICANN Org as they seek to improve ways of strengthening the Capacity of the Community. Best Regards On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 8:01 AM DANIEL NANGHAKA <dndannang@gmail.com> wrote:
The discussion is so strong about Volunteer motivation. Probably we should be asking what is the motivational factor behind the high levels of Volunteer engagement amidst the challenges that they encounter in their day to day lives, whether job or families or social factors. According to Maslows theory of Motivation - Maslow proposed that motivation is the result of a person's attempt at fulfilling five basic needs: physiological, safety, social, esteem and self-actualization. According to Maslow, these needs can create internal pressures that can influence a person's behavior. This I believe also applies to our volunteer community. The Pandemic has also shown the value that the org has on volunteers. Is the volunteering based on the travel Perk, this varies on any volunteer. Many groan with pain and fear speak about their pain on the record. @Glenn McKnight <mcknight.glenn@gmail.com> has a very good experience of this. And yet Volunteer effort is sometimes abused. There is a need to revisit the value of volunteers and also how Volunteers can be motivated in this community.
Daniel
On Mon, 21 Sep 2020 at 04:21, Carlton Samuels <carlton.samuels@gmail.com> wrote:
The record will show my position on volunteer time etc. etc. etc. I am on record stating my unalterable position that without a value for both time and treasure injected by volunteers, the costs as published for the ICANN world are largely under-reported.
At the risk at getting into a cass-cass, I summarily reject these notions for cause: a) we cannot put a value on volunteer time b) that travel for ICANN meetings is a perk c) any attempt to place a value on volunteer time is a third rail in ICANN politics.
Rational minds would not wish to argue that there are volunteers whose compensated day job is to participate in names and numbers policy development. If you have been around for a few years you would know some. I have sat, shoulder to shoulder, with people compensated in the high 6-figures to do what we are doing. It is irrefutable that there are volunteers, such as I am, who are not paid to participate. So it becomes a measure of intellectual dishonesty to deny the facts as we know them.
I am a knowledge worker. I acquire knowledge about this and that, package and sell to the highest bidder for fee. I have before now mocked how so easy it is, for example, to give an estimate of the effort in time to be an ALAC member. But all of a sudden yet sentient people contemplating an algorithm that places a value on even that time commitment become cockeyed.
Very strange indeed. Carlton
============================== *Carlton A Samuels*
*Mobile: 876-818-1799Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* =============================
On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 2:00 PM Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond <ocl@gih.com> wrote:
"travel is a perk" is a derogatory way of referring to the ALAC. If I was to bill every hour that I spend volunteering for At-Large and the days spent at ICANN meetings, I would have enough money in my pocket to go to better places, better hotels and do better things than staying in a windowless, frozen room for 10 hours a day. I don't do that because a. I believe in making a difference and b. I enjoy the company of people that have become friends Kindest regards,
Olivier
On 18/09/2020 20:38, Maureen Hilyard wrote:
Hi Alan
LOL. I should have put the "exotic places" comment in speech marks because that is the perception of many - that travel is a perk. And some take time before or after meetings to take advantage of the venue wherever it is. This could be considered a reward. I have done the same with colleagues myself thanks to ICANN. But for me the real bonus of attending an ICANN meeting has been the chance to spend any down-time with colleagues who have now become friends, wherever the meeting takes place.
It has already been hinted that the pandemic has changed the way ICANN meetings will look in the future. How do we see it will be?
M
On Fri, 18 Sep 2020, 8:01 am Alan Greenberg, <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> wrote:
Maureen, please do not say things like "But what replaces our more accustomed reward for effort - of attending an ICANN meeting in some exotic place around the world?"!!
I am sure that for some, it is quite true that they volunteer for the travel rewards, but it is NOT the case for many, and it reflects SO BADLY on us.
I have been to MANY exotic places on ICANN's dime. only rarely have I taken the time to experience them. And I have been to MANY places that I had no interest in visiting. If every ICANN meeting were held at a Los Angeles airport hotel, my attendance would not be different, and I suspect that is the same for you.
So let's not encourage the concept that we consider travel a reward.
Alan
At 2020-09-17 09:02 PM, Maureen Hilyard wrote:
Hi everyone
I noted that in the threads related to discussions with Goran (and wrt the ALAC-Board meeting at ICANN69) there were references made to matters that were raised in the Workload Survey so that I am bending towards using this interaction with Goran as an opportunity to address some of our workload issues related to ICANN meetings and our work with ICANN in general.
I sent the Workload survey to Goran and others and soon after, had an opportunity to speak to it during our 1:1 discussion (as one of his normal SOAC Chair chats). He was sympathetic to the workload issues that were raised, and I asked whether perhaps ICANN should look at how they might appropriately recognise the work that is being done by some very active At-Large participants at their own cost - of precious down-time, energy, internet costs as well as the intellectual contribution they make on a weekly basis, all for the benefit of ICANN, with no expectation of compensation.
Is it really acceptable in this day and age that people are expected to have such a high level of input into an important organisational output, for free? Especially in light of what many are also experiencing with regards to pandemic conditions and the impacts it is having on their daily lives? That volunteers across ICANN remain committed to this level of giving is really amazing. But what replaces our more accustomed reward for effort - of attending an ICANN meeting in some exotic place around the world? In the middle of a pandemic, do we have any answers?
Another topical discussion also mentioned in the Workload survey, and which was also raised in our SOAC Chairs meeting this week, was the idea of regional meetings. Goran suggested that things may have to be different for the future of ICANN meetings. If you have any suggestions as alternatives, then I am sure that he would be happy to hear them. I am re-attaching the report in case you can't find it. The discussion should be interesting.
Just to add, Leon will also be at the meeting, but he will be giving his usual update on Board activities. Maybe he will have further news on the Internet Grant.
Comments welcome. Maureen Content-Type: application/pdf; name="At Large Meeting Workload Survey results Aug 2020-2.pdf" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="At Large Meeting Workload Survey results Aug 2020-2.pdf" Content-ID: <f_kf7co9bv0> X-Attachment-Id: f_kf7co9bv0
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_______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac
At-Large Online: http://www.atlarge.icann.org ALAC Working Wiki: https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALA...) _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
-- Barrack O. Otieno +254721325277 +254733206359 Skype: barrack.otieno PGP ID: 0x2611D86A
I foresee ICANN meetings will disappear at least until the pandemic is called off by the World Health Organization (WHO). They will be replaced by periodic webinars on topics of interest to all SOs/ACs. In the between, SOs/ACs will continue to meet and do what they have been doing regularly. -ed On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 2:38 PM Maureen Hilyard <maureen.hilyard@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Alan
LOL. I should have put the "exotic places" comment in speech marks because that is the perception of many - that travel is a perk. And some take time before or after meetings to take advantage of the venue wherever it is. This could be considered a reward. I have done the same with colleagues myself thanks to ICANN. But for me the real bonus of attending an ICANN meeting has been the chance to spend any down-time with colleagues who have now become friends, wherever the meeting takes place.
It has already been hinted that the pandemic has changed the way ICANN meetings will look in the future. How do we see it will be?
M
On Fri, 18 Sep 2020, 8:01 am Alan Greenberg, <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> wrote:
Maureen, please do not say things like "But what replaces our more accustomed reward for effort - of attending an ICANN meeting in some exotic place around the world?"!!
I am sure that for some, it is quite true that they volunteer for the travel rewards, but it is NOT the case for many, and it reflects SO BADLY on us.
I have been to MANY exotic places on ICANN's dime. only rarely have I taken the time to experience them. And I have been to MANY places that I had no interest in visiting. If every ICANN meeting were held at a Los Angeles airport hotel, my attendance would not be different, and I suspect that is the same for you.
So let's not encourage the concept that we consider travel a reward.
Alan
At 2020-09-17 09:02 PM, Maureen Hilyard wrote:
Hi everyone
I noted that in the threads related to discussions with Goran (and wrt the ALAC-Board meeting at ICANN69) there were references made to matters that were raised in the Workload Survey so that I am bending towards using this interaction with Goran as an opportunity to address some of our workload issues related to ICANN meetings and our work with ICANN in general.
I sent the Workload survey to Goran and others and soon after, had an opportunity to speak to it during our 1:1 discussion (as one of his normal SOAC Chair chats). He was sympathetic to the workload issues that were raised, and I asked whether perhaps ICANN should look at how they might appropriately recognise the work that is being done by some very active At-Large participants at their own cost - of precious down-time, energy, internet costs as well as the intellectual contribution they make on a weekly basis, all for the benefit of ICANN, with no expectation of compensation.
Is it really acceptable in this day and age that people are expected to have such a high level of input into an important organisational output, for free? Especially in light of what many are also experiencing with regards to pandemic conditions and the impacts it is having on their daily lives? That volunteers across ICANN remain committed to this level of giving is really amazing. But what replaces our more accustomed reward for effort - of attending an ICANN meeting in some exotic place around the world? In the middle of a pandemic, do we have any answers?
Another topical discussion also mentioned in the Workload survey, and which was also raised in our SOAC Chairs meeting this week, was the idea of regional meetings. Goran suggested that things may have to be different for the future of ICANN meetings. If you have any suggestions as alternatives, then I am sure that he would be happy to hear them. I am re-attaching the report in case you can't find it. The discussion should be interesting.
Just to add, Leon will also be at the meeting, but he will be giving his usual update on Board activities. Maybe he will have further news on the Internet Grant.
Comments welcome. Maureen Content-Type: application/pdf; name="At Large Meeting Workload Survey results Aug 2020-2.pdf" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="At Large Meeting Workload Survey results Aug 2020-2.pdf" Content-ID: <f_kf7co9bv0> X-Attachment-Id: f_kf7co9bv0
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So true, When my children ask me about the town where the meeting was held, I answer that I can tell you about the airport, the hotel room and the meeting rooms, but nothing else. Aziz always blame me because I never take the time to go out of the meeting venue.
Le 18 sept. 2020 à 18:05, Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> a écrit :
Maureen, please do not say things like "But what replaces our more accustomed reward for effort - of attending an ICANN meeting in some exotic place around the world?"!!
I am sure that for some, it is quite true that they volunteer for the travel rewards, but it is NOT the case for many, and it reflects SO BADLY on us.
I have been to MANY exotic places on ICANN's dime. only rarely have I taken the time to experience them. And I have been to MANY places that I had no interest in visiting. If every ICANN meeting were held at a Los Angeles airport hotel, my attendance would not be different, and I suspect that is the same for you.
So let's not encourage the concept that we consider travel a reward.
Alan
At 2020-09-17 09:02 PM, Maureen Hilyard wrote:
Hi everyone
I noted that in the threads related to discussions with Goran (and wrt the ALAC-Board meeting at ICANN69) there were references made to matters that were raised in the Workload Survey so that I am bending towards using this interaction with Goran as an opportunity to address some of our workload issues related to ICANN meetings and our work with ICANN in general.
I sent the Workload survey to Goran and others and soon after, had an opportunity to speak to it during our 1:1 discussion (as one of his normal SOAC Chair chats). He was sympathetic to the workload issues that were raised, and I asked whether perhaps ICANN should look at how they might appropriately recognise the work that is being done by some very active At-Large participants at their own cost - of precious down-time, energy, internet costs as well as the intellectual contribution they make on a weekly basis, all for the benefit of ICANN, with no expectation of compensation.
Is it really acceptable in this day and age that people are expected to have such a high level of input into an important organisational output, for free? Especially in light of what many are also experiencing with regards to pandemic conditions and the impacts it is having on their daily lives? That volunteers across ICANN remain committed to this level of giving is really amazing. But what replaces our more accustomed reward for effort - of attending an ICANN meeting in some exotic place around the world? In the middle of a pandemic, do we have any answers?
Another topical discussion also mentioned in the Workload survey, and which was also raised in our SOAC Chairs meeting this week, was the idea of regional meetings. Goran suggested that things may have to be different for the future of ICANN meetings. If you have any suggestions as alternatives, then I am sure that he would be happy to hear them. I am re-attaching the report in case you can't find it. The discussion should be interesting.
Just to add, Leon will also be at the meeting, but he will be giving his usual update on Board activities. Maybe he will have further news on the Internet Grant.
Comments welcome. Maureen Content-Type: application/pdf; name="At Large Meeting Workload Survey results Aug 2020-2.pdf" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="At Large Meeting Workload Survey results Aug 2020-2.pdf" Content-ID: <f_kf7co9bv0> X-Attachment-Id: f_kf7co9bv0
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Tijani BEN JEMAA
participants (10)
-
Alan Greenberg -
Barrack Otieno -
Carlton Samuels -
DANIEL NANGHAKA -
Eduardo Diaz -
Jonathan Zuck -
Maureen Hilyard -
Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond -
Tijani BEN JEMAA -
Yrjö Länsipuro