Re: [ALAC] [At-Large] R: ICANN Launches Accountability Structures Expert Panel, Seeks Community Input
In the early days I asked about diversity in the ICANN policy staff. I got the distinct impression that it was interpreted to mean I was proposing an affirmative action ala the preferred meaning as espoused by neocon American politicians. - Carlton ============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 *Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* ============================= On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 5:32 PM, Roberto Gaetano < roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com> wrote:
I agree with Alx about the need to have external auditors, but also with the points raised by jjs. If there is a formal ALAC document I would concentrate on the lack of diversity. It reminds me of a case in the recent past where I have been asked to choose among three candidates, shortlisted via an international call for candidates, who were from the West Coast, East Coast, and South. Of course, US West Coast, US East Coast, and Southern US. Cheers, R.
-----Messaggio originale----- Da: at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto: at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] Per conto di Evan Leibovitch Inviato: martedì 18 settembre 2012 23:41 A: Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro Cc: Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch; ALAC Working List; At-Large Worldwide Oggetto: Re: [At-Large] [ALAC] ICANN Launches Accountability Structures Expert Panel, Seeks Community Input
Hi,
I did not see the original message from Alexandro until it was quoted here by Sala.
Both your replies are very reasonable and well stated. The issue of capture is especially important. Consider my mind changed on the issue.
- Evan
On 18 September 2012 14:55, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro < salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro@gmail.com> wrote:
Evan.
You are correct about the level of skills, talents that are already within ICANN itself. However for the purposes of having a review, kind of like an "auditing", there is always the option to conduct "internal audits" and "ex internal audits".
Whilst having a review done "Inhouse" has its uses, for a body that facilitates objectives pertaining to the key internet policy spaces where the world is the "beneficiary", it follows that there is a need for a review to be carried out "externally".
The Accountability and Structure Review process is a critical aspect of evaluating and assessing ICANN's operations so that much like having a mirror, it can work towards constant improvements, development and growth. If the pool of Experts conducting the review were sourced from inside, there is a far greater likelihood that due to "friendships, networks, shared interests etc" that the Report could be "biased". In a global policy environment, structures, processes have far greater legal, equitable, socio-cultural, economic, political impact on the quality of policies that are produced.
This no doubt includes substantive technical input, enabling mechanisms to continually allow for diversity into the policy spaces etc. The Affirmation of Commitments and Bylaws recognise this.
The issue is not about ICANN trusting its community because it already does through the enormous work in various Supporting organisations, advisory committees, working groups, task forces, cross constituency groups etc. The integrity of the evaluation lies in the ability to minimise risks of apprehension of bias, reasonable bias, bias etc.
Kind Regards, Sala
On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 5:55 AM, Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch < apisan@unam.mx> wrote:
Evan,
I'll take the daring step of disagreeing with you. Calling on external experts for the Accountability Structures panel is consistent with an institutional design that moves away from the potential for capture, shop blindness, inbreeding, and other ills that can arise from the lack of independent analysis. Since the 2003 reform we started to make sure opportunities for reasonable challenge and redress of decisions be part of the design, while avoiding in turn the capture of those processes by the politics of delay and by parties which are not committed to the result yet may slow it eternally or distort it seriously.
At the same time I will state that I am unhappy, as others have already stated, with the specific integration of the panel. Yet we have ourselves to blame as much as any other if this integration is the result of some horse-trading. If it is the case, it shows that we have not been able to get rid of *that* scourge fast enough.
Alejandro Pisanty
! !! !!! !!!! NEW PHONE NUMBER - NUEVO NÚMERO DE TELÉFONO
+52-1-5541444475 FROM ABROAD
+525541444475 DESDE MÉXICO
SMS +525541444475 Dr. Alejandro Pisanty UNAM, Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico
Blog: http://pisanty.blogspot.com LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn, http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614 Twitter: http://twitter.com/apisanty ---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, http://www.isoc.org . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
________________________________________ Desde: at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [ at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] en nombre de Evan Leibovitch [ evan@telly.org] Enviado el: martes, 18 de septiembre de 2012 12:09 Hasta: Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro CC: JJS; ALAC Working List; At-Large Worldwide Asunto: Re: [At-Large] [ALAC] ICANN Launches Accountability Structures Expert Panel, Seeks Community Input
Personally, I am amazed that ICANN feels the need to go "external" when it has such a massive pool of diverse, experienced expertise within its community.
Historically, the use by ICANN of outside "expertise" has appeared to me to be an indication that the organization does not trust its own community perform such an evaluation. It's more evidence that ICANN as a body fears its volunteers rather than exploits their perspectives. I am much more in favour of having outside resources available to a community review, than to put leadership of this effort in the hands of people without diverse backgrounds or experience in ICANN culture.
- Evan
On 18 September 2012 05:40, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro < salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks Jean-Jacques,
Thank you for your email and analysis. I fully agree with the wisdom of your counsel and the analysis, rationale behind the call for the ALAC to make a Statement in this regard.
Kind Regards, Sala
On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 9:31 PM, JJS <jjs.global@gmail.com> wrote:
*Alan, Salanieta, All,* * * *sorry, you received 2 emails from me on the same subject. The first one, incomplete, was sent by mistake, so please read the second.* * * *Jean-Jacques. * 2012/9/18 Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro < salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro@gmail.com>
On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 9:00 PM, JJS <jjs.global@gmail.com>
wrote:
> *Hello Alan,* > * > * > *thank you for forwarding this information. Prior to making > any individual comment on an open ICANN online space, I wish > to submit that:* > *- this issue may deserve an ALAC reaction as such,* > *- at the very least, the ALAC should underline that* > * - the panel lacks gender and cultural diversity (3 White
males, even
> if one of them hails from South Africa)* > * - all 3 come from the same mold (common law, corporate affairs, > English)* > * - our observations are not aimed at the individuals, or their > personal > > value, but at principles enshrined in the By-laws, recommended > in the > "Improving Institutional Confidence" document of the (now > I agree!
> * > 2012/9/14 Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> > > > < > http://www.icann.org/en/news/announcements/announcement-11sep12-en.h tm
> > http://www.icann.org/en/news/announcements/announcement-11sep12-en .htm > > > > > > ICANN Launches Accountability Structures Expert Panel, Seeks Community > > Input > > > > 11 September 2012 > > > > In fulfillment of ATRT Recommendations 23 and 25, calling > > for a review of ICANN's Accountability Structures, ICANN has > > identified an > > international panel of experts to serve on the > > Accountability Structures Expert Panel (ASEP). Biographies > > of the experts are available at > > <http://www.icann.org/en/news/in-focus/accountability/asep> > > http://www.icann.org/en/news/in-focus/accountability/asep. > > > > The ASEP is interested in hearing from the ICANN community regarding > > your thoughts on ICANN's accountability structures, > > particularly the > > Reconsideration process and the Independent Review process, > > and whether they can or should be modified. Your comments > > and inputs can > > be submitted to <mailto:ASEP@ICANN.org>ASEP@ICANN.org and comments > > can be viewed at > > <http://forum.icann.org/lists/asep/> http://forum.icann.org/lists/asep/ > . > > Please provide your input by 1 October 2012. > > > > The ASEP will be posting updates regarding its work, with a detailed > > project plan expected by mid-September. All information > > regarding the > > ASEP will be accessible from the ASEP page at > > <http://www.icann.org/en/news/in-focus/accountability/asep> > > http://www.icann.org/en/news/in-focus/accountability/asep. > > _______________________________________________ > > ALAC mailing list > > ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org > > https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac > > > > At-Large Online: http://www.atlarge.icann.org ALAC Working > > Wiki: > > >
https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committe e+(ALAC)
> > > _______________________________________________ > ALAC mailing list > ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org > https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac > > At-Large Online: http://www.atlarge.icann.org ALAC Working > Wiki: >
https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committe e+(ALAC)
>
-- Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala P.O. Box 17862 Suva Fiji
Twitter: @SalanietaT Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
-- Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala P.O. Box 17862 Suva Fiji
Twitter: @SalanietaT Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851 _______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac
At-Large Online: http://www.atlarge.icann.org ALAC Working Wiki:
https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALA...)
-- Evan Leibovitch Toronto Canada
Em: evan at telly dot org Sk: evanleibovitch Tw: el56 _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org
-- Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala P.O. Box 17862 Suva Fiji
Twitter: @SalanietaT Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851 _______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac
At-Large Online: http://www.atlarge.icann.org ALAC Working Wiki:
https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALA...)
-- Evan Leibovitch Toronto Canada
Em: evan at telly dot org Sk: evanleibovitch Tw: el56 _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org
On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 5:08 PM, Carlton Samuels <carlton.samuels@gmail.com>wrote:
In the early days I asked about diversity in the ICANN policy staff. I got the distinct impression that it was interpreted to mean I was proposing an affirmative action ala the preferred meaning as espoused by neocon American politicians.
- Carlton
Your advocacy in the early days is clearly paying dividends, excerpt from the Compliance newsletter: Contractual Compliance Adds Three Staff Members ICANN continued to strengthen the Contractual Compliance team by increasing staff in numbers as well as in expertise. The Contractual Compliance team is now 15 members strong and multi-lingual with staff fluent in Arabic, English, French, Hindi, Korean, Mandarin, Spanish and Urdu. Staff biographies can be found at http://www.icann.org/en/resources/compliance/staff.
============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 *Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* =============================
On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 5:32 PM, Roberto Gaetano < roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com> wrote:
I agree with Alx about the need to have external auditors, but also with the points raised by jjs. If there is a formal ALAC document I would concentrate on the lack of diversity. It reminds me of a case in the recent past where I have been asked to choose among three candidates, shortlisted via an international call for candidates, who were from the West Coast, East Coast, and South. Of course, US West Coast, US East Coast, and Southern US. Cheers, R.
-----Messaggio originale----- Da: at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto: at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] Per conto di Evan Leibovitch Inviato: martedì 18 settembre 2012 23:41 A: Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro Cc: Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch; ALAC Working List; At-Large Worldwide Oggetto: Re: [At-Large] [ALAC] ICANN Launches Accountability Structures Expert Panel, Seeks Community Input
Hi,
I did not see the original message from Alexandro until it was quoted here by Sala.
Both your replies are very reasonable and well stated. The issue of capture is especially important. Consider my mind changed on the issue.
- Evan
On 18 September 2012 14:55, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro < salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro@gmail.com> wrote:
Evan.
You are correct about the level of skills, talents that are already within ICANN itself. However for the purposes of having a review, kind of like an "auditing", there is always the option to conduct "internal audits" and "ex internal audits".
Whilst having a review done "Inhouse" has its uses, for a body that facilitates objectives pertaining to the key internet policy spaces where the world is the "beneficiary", it follows that there is a need for a review to be carried out "externally".
The Accountability and Structure Review process is a critical aspect of evaluating and assessing ICANN's operations so that much like having a mirror, it can work towards constant improvements, development and growth. If the pool of Experts conducting the review were sourced from inside, there is a far greater likelihood that due to "friendships, networks, shared interests etc" that the Report could be "biased". In a global policy environment, structures, processes have far greater legal, equitable, socio-cultural, economic, political impact on the quality of policies that are produced.
This no doubt includes substantive technical input, enabling mechanisms to continually allow for diversity into the policy spaces etc. The Affirmation of Commitments and Bylaws recognise this.
The issue is not about ICANN trusting its community because it already does through the enormous work in various Supporting organisations, advisory committees, working groups, task forces, cross constituency groups etc. The integrity of the evaluation lies in the ability to minimise risks of apprehension of bias, reasonable bias, bias etc.
Kind Regards, Sala
On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 5:55 AM, Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch < apisan@unam.mx> wrote:
Evan,
I'll take the daring step of disagreeing with you. Calling on external experts for the Accountability Structures panel is consistent with an institutional design that moves away from the potential for capture, shop blindness, inbreeding, and other ills that can arise from the lack of independent analysis. Since the 2003 reform we started to make sure opportunities for reasonable challenge and redress of decisions be part of the design, while avoiding in turn the capture of those processes by the politics of delay and by parties which are not committed to the result yet may slow it eternally or distort it seriously.
At the same time I will state that I am unhappy, as others have already stated, with the specific integration of the panel. Yet we have ourselves to blame as much as any other if this integration is the result of some horse-trading. If it is the case, it shows that we have not been able to get rid of *that* scourge fast enough.
Alejandro Pisanty
! !! !!! !!!! NEW PHONE NUMBER - NUEVO NÚMERO DE TELÉFONO
+52-1-5541444475 FROM ABROAD
+525541444475 DESDE MÉXICO
SMS +525541444475 Dr. Alejandro Pisanty UNAM, Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico
Blog: http://pisanty.blogspot.com LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn, http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614 Twitter: http://twitter.com/apisanty ---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, http://www.isoc.org . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
________________________________________ Desde: at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [ at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] en nombre de Evan Leibovitch [ evan@telly.org] Enviado el: martes, 18 de septiembre de 2012 12:09 Hasta: Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro CC: JJS; ALAC Working List; At-Large Worldwide Asunto: Re: [At-Large] [ALAC] ICANN Launches Accountability Structures Expert Panel, Seeks Community Input
Personally, I am amazed that ICANN feels the need to go "external" when it has such a massive pool of diverse, experienced expertise within its community.
Historically, the use by ICANN of outside "expertise" has appeared to me to be an indication that the organization does not trust its own community perform such an evaluation. It's more evidence that ICANN as a body fears its volunteers rather than exploits their perspectives. I am much more in favour of having outside resources available to a community review, than to put leadership of this effort in the hands of people without diverse backgrounds or experience in ICANN culture.
- Evan
On 18 September 2012 05:40, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro < salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks Jean-Jacques,
Thank you for your email and analysis. I fully agree with the wisdom of your counsel and the analysis, rationale behind the call for the ALAC to make a Statement in this regard.
Kind Regards, Sala
On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 9:31 PM, JJS <jjs.global@gmail.com> wrote:
*Alan, Salanieta, All,* * * *sorry, you received 2 emails from me on the same subject. The first one, incomplete, was sent by mistake, so please read the second.* * * *Jean-Jacques. * 2012/9/18 Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro < salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro@gmail.com>
> > On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 9:00 PM, JJS <jjs.global@gmail.com> wrote: > >> *Hello Alan,* >> * >> * >> *thank you for forwarding this information. Prior to making >> any individual comment on an open ICANN online space, I wish >> to submit that:* >> *- this issue may deserve an ALAC reaction as such,* >> *- at the very least, the ALAC should underline that* >> * - the panel lacks gender and cultural diversity (3 White males, even >> if one of them hails from South Africa)* >> * - all 3 come from the same mold (common law, corporate affairs, >> English)* >> * - our observations are not aimed at the individuals, or their >> personal >> >> value, but at principles enshrined in the By-laws, recommended >> in the >> "Improving Institutional Confidence" document of the (now >> > I agree! > >> * >> 2012/9/14 Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> >> >> > < >> http://www.icann.org/en/news/announcements/announcement-11sep12-en.h tm
>> > http://www.icann.org/en/news/announcements/announcement-11sep12-en .htm >> > >> > >> > ICANN Launches Accountability Structures Expert Panel, Seeks Community >> > Input >> > >> > 11 September 2012 >> > >> > In fulfillment of ATRT Recommendations 23 and 25, calling >> > for a review of ICANN's Accountability Structures, ICANN has >> > identified an >> > international panel of experts to serve on the >> > Accountability Structures Expert Panel (ASEP). Biographies >> > of the experts are available at >> > <http://www.icann.org/en/news/in-focus/accountability/asep> >> > http://www.icann.org/en/news/in-focus/accountability/asep. >> > >> > The ASEP is interested in hearing from the ICANN community regarding >> > your thoughts on ICANN's accountability structures, >> > particularly the >> > Reconsideration process and the Independent Review process, >> > and whether they can or should be modified. Your comments >> > and inputs can >> > be submitted to <mailto:ASEP@ICANN.org>ASEP@ICANN.org and comments >> > can be viewed at >> > <http://forum.icann.org/lists/asep/> http://forum.icann.org/lists/asep/ >> . >> > Please provide your input by 1 October 2012. >> > >> > The ASEP will be posting updates regarding its work, with a detailed >> > project plan expected by mid-September. All information >> > regarding the >> > ASEP will be accessible from the ASEP page at >> > <http://www.icann.org/en/news/in-focus/accountability/asep> >> > http://www.icann.org/en/news/in-focus/accountability/asep. >> > _______________________________________________ >> > ALAC mailing list >> > ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org >> > https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac >> > >> > At-Large Online: http://www.atlarge.icann.org ALAC Working >> > Wiki: >> > >>
https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committe e+(ALAC)
>> > >> _______________________________________________ >> ALAC mailing list >> ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org >> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac >> >> At-Large Online: http://www.atlarge.icann.org ALAC Working >> Wiki: >>
https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committe e+(ALAC)
>> > > > > -- > Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala P.O. Box 17862 Suva Fiji > > Twitter: @SalanietaT > Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851 > > > > >
-- Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala P.O. Box 17862 Suva Fiji
Twitter: @SalanietaT Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851 _______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac
At-Large Online: http://www.atlarge.icann.org ALAC Working Wiki:
https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALA...)
-- Evan Leibovitch Toronto Canada
Em: evan at telly dot org Sk: evanleibovitch Tw: el56 _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org
-- Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala P.O. Box 17862 Suva Fiji
Twitter: @SalanietaT Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851 _______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac
At-Large Online: http://www.atlarge.icann.org ALAC Working Wiki:
https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALA...)
-- Evan Leibovitch Toronto Canada
Em: evan at telly dot org Sk: evanleibovitch Tw: el56 _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org
-- Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala P.O. Box 17862 Suva Fiji Twitter: @SalanietaT Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
participants (2)
-
Carlton Samuels -
Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro