Re: [ALAC] [ALAC-Announce] VOTE ANNOUNCEMENT: ALS Application (307) Internet Society Rural Development Special Interest Group
This is not a result of just our "rules", but is also a core principle from the ICANN Bylaws. I quote: The criteria and standards for the certification of At-Large Structures shall be established in such a way that participation by individual Internet users who are citizens or residents of countries within the Geographic Region of the RALO will predominate in the operation of each At-Large Structure within the RALO, while not necessarily excluding additional participation, compatible with the interests of the individual Internet users within the region, by others. I see two ways of "fixing" this. Both would require a Bylaw change (certainly possible). 1. Abolish RALOs and have all ALSes and unaffiliated members be one amorphous mass. This removes the need to identify an ALS with a specific RALO, since there are none. 2. Develop the concept of an ALS which crosses RALOs and thus does not belong to any of them. If indeed we have a potential ALS that will really help At-Large, we don't want to lose them, but I have an aversion for doing things in violation of our own rules and the ICANN Bylaws. Alan At 17/09/2019 11:53 PM, Maureen Hilyard wrote: Hi Olivier Maybe the rules need changing. Just because a group has members from all over the world, why should we stop them from becoming members of At-Large. The group currently had a leadership team whose members are all resident in the APRALO region. They are one of the few applications that I have seen that actually mentioned the DNS. As an ISOC chapter focusing on rural development, it probably has a majority of members from APRALO if all of its leadership team is from the same region. Since our current rules only note the primary and secondary members of an ALS regardless of who is most active in our work in At-Large, when it comes to who the other members are, no-one really bothers to ask. I would hazard a guess that if we were to do an analysis (and were to be so picky) we would have several groups that have global members. If we get active participants out of this ALS we should count ourselves lucky. That is the whole point of our ALS recruitment process. And as part of our Review we are finding that many of our processes need updating to keep up with the changing needs of the environments we are having to deal with. EURALO itself has been faced with an anomaly which does not fit the rules, but we have found LACRALO to be very obliging to cater for it. And as we revise our ALS Criteria and Expectations we will have to include a new "rule" that allows for ALSes to participate in an event on a neighbouring country that "does not belong to the region in which they are situated". BIKLAB is now a precedent which will allow this to happen more within our system as long as there is agreement between the regions concerned. APRALO has many small island countries in the Pacific that have been unable to participate in ICANN activities in their own right under our current rules because they are territories of big power countries (mainly in EURALO) who are given no support from their home region and would have no idea what EURALO was. Pacific countries are an anomaly because as all the 22 countries and territories of the Pacific are members of the Pacific Forum, they are therefore members of PICISOC, so in fact are members of an ALS already -- so we have international participants in our membership, even though they live in the Pacific. Maureen On Tue, 17 Sep 2019, 3:14 PM Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, <ocl@gih.com<mailto:ocl@gih.com>> wrote: Dear Maureen, I am very surprised to see this having reached the ALAC with a recommendation from APRALO that this should be accepted. This should have been picked up at Due Diligence: Internet Society Special Interest Groups are global as per the explanation on https://www.internetsociety.org/sigs This countervenes ALAC rules which specify that ALSes must be geographical. See tinyurl.com/ALAC-RoP-AdjDoc4-2013-07<http://tinyurl.com/ALAC-RoP-AdjDoc4-2013-07> "2. Be organised so that participation by individual Internet users who are citizens or residents of countries within the Geographic Region in which the ALS is based will predominate in the ALS' operation. The ALS may permit additional participation by others that is compatible with the interests of the individual Internet users within the region." The key words are "be organised" - and as much as I support the work of the Internet Society Rurel Special Interest Group, rural areas are not limited to Asia. Unless there is a commitment that this SIG will restrict the majority of its membership to come from the Asia region. The explicit response of the SIG in due diligence was "this is a global SIG". I also have a concern that it would be possible to create one SIG after another in ISOC and the meaning of ALS no longer applies as you are effectively creating votes. The question of "geographical" was asked on the APRALO mailing list as recently as 11 September 2019 ( https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/pipermail/apac-discuss/2019-September/004952... ) but I do not see any response to this. Kindest regards, Olivier On 18/09/2019 01:58, ICANN At-Large Staff wrote: Dear All, The regional advice from APRALO regarding the ALS Application (307) Internet Society Rural Development Special Interest Group has been received. The following question has been posed to the ALAC: ***** Question: Does the ALAC wish to accredit the (307) Internet Society Rural Development Special Interest Group? The regional advice was to accept the application. ***** Please note that this vote will close on Tuesday, 24 September 2019 23:59 UTC. Kind Regards, ICANN Policy Staff in support of the At-Large Community Website: atlarge.icann.org<https://atlarge.icann.org/> Facebook: facebook.com/icann<https://www.facebook.com/icannatlarge> atlarge<https://www.facebook.com/icannatlarge> Twitter: @<https://twitter.com/ICANNAtLarge> ICANNAtLarge<https://twitter.com/ICANNAtLarge> _______________________________________________ ALAC-Announce mailing list ALAC-Announce@atlarge-lists.icann.org<mailto:ALAC-Announce@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac-announce At-Large Official Site: http://www.atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac At-Large Online: http://www.atlarge.icann.org<http://www.atlarge.icann.org/> ALAC Working Wiki: https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALA... ) _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Alan, "but I have an aversion for doing things in violation of our own rules and the ICANN Bylaws." I agree 100% Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> a écrit :
This is not a result of just our "rules", but is also a core principle from the ICANN Bylaws. I quote:
/THE CRITERIA AND STANDARDS FOR THE CERTIFICATION OF AT-LARGE STRUCTURES SHALL BE ESTABLISHED IN SUCH A WAY THAT PARTICIPATION BY INDIVIDUAL INTERNET USERS WHO ARE CITIZENS OR RESIDENTS OF COUNTRIES WITHIN THE GEOGRAPHIC REGION OF THE RALO WILL PREDOMINATE IN THE OPERATION OF EACH AT-LARGE STRUCTURE WITHIN THE RALO, WHILE NOT NECESSARILY EXCLUDING ADDITIONAL PARTICIPATION, COMPATIBLE WITH THE INTERESTS OF THE INDIVIDUAL INTERNET USERS WITHIN THE REGION, BY OTHERS./
I see two ways of "fixing" this. Both would require a Bylaw change (certainly possible).
1. Abolish RALOs and have all ALSes and unaffiliated members be one amorphous mass. This removes the need to identify an ALS with a specific RALO, since there are none.
2. Develop the concept of an ALS which crosses RALOs and thus does not belong to any of them.
If indeed we have a potential ALS that will really help At-Large, we don't want to lose them, but I have an aversion for doing things in violation of our own rules and the ICANN Bylaws.
Alan
At 17/09/2019 11:53 PM, Maureen Hilyard wrote:
Hi Olivier
Maybe the rules need changing. Just because a group has members from all over the world, why should we stop them from becoming members of At-Large.
The group currently had a leadership team whose members are all resident in the APRALO region. They are one of the few applications that I have seen that actually mentioned the DNS. As an ISOC chapter focusing on rural development, it probably has a majority of members from APRALO if all of its leadership team is from the same region.
Since our current rules only note the primary and secondary members of an ALS regardless of who is most active in our work in At-Large, when it comes to who the other members are, no-one really bothers to ask. I would hazard a guess that if we were to do an analysis (and were to be so picky) we would have several groups that have global members.
_If we get active participants out of this ALS_ we should count ourselves lucky. That is the whole point of our ALS recruitment process. And as part of our Review we are finding that many of our processes need updating to keep up with the changing needs of the environments we are having to deal with.
EURALO itself has been faced with an anomaly which does not fit the rules, but we have found LACRALO to be very obliging to cater for it. And as we revise our ALS Criteria and Expectations we will have to include a new "rule" that allows for ALSes to participate in an event on a neighbouring country that "does not belong to the region in which they are situated". BIKLAB is now a precedent which will allow this to happen more within our system as long as there is agreement between the regions concerned.
APRALO has many small island countries in the Pacific that have been unable to participate in ICANN activities in their own right under our current rules because they are territories of big power countries (mainly in EURALO) who are given no support from their home region and would have no idea what EURALO was. Pacific countries are an anomaly because as all the 22 countries and territories of the Pacific are members of the Pacific Forum, they are therefore members of PICISOC, so in fact are members of an ALS already -- so we have international participants in our membership, even though they live in the Pacific.
Maureen
On Tue, 17 Sep 2019, 3:14 PM Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, <ocl@gih.com> wrote:
* Dear Maureen, * I am very surprised to see this having reached the ALAC with a recommendation from APRALO that this should be accepted. This should have been picked up at Due Diligence: Internet Society Special Interest Groups are global as per the explanation on https://www.internetsociety.org/sigs * This countervenes ALAC rules which specify that ALSes must be geographical. See tinyurl.com/ALAC-RoP-AdjDoc4-2013-07[1] * "2. Be organised so that participation by individual Internet users who are citizens or residents of countries within the Geographic Region in which the ALS is based will predominate in the ALS' operation. The ALS may permit additional participation by others that is compatible with the interests of the individual Internet users within the region." * The key words are "be organised" - and as much as I support the work of the Internet Society Rurel Special Interest Group, rural areas are not limited to Asia. Unless there is a commitment that this SIG will restrict the majority of its membership to come from the Asia region. The explicit response of the SIG in due diligence was "this is a global SIG". * I also have a concern that it would be possible to create one SIG after another in ISOC and the meaning of ALS no longer applies as you are effectively creating votes. * The question of "geographical" was asked on the APRALO mailing list as recently as 11 September 2019 (
https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/pipermail/apac-discuss/2019-September/004952.html[2] ) but I do not see any response to
this. * Kindest regards, * Olivier * On 18/09/2019 01:58, ICANN At-Large Staff wrote:
* Dear All, * * The regional advice from APRALO regarding the ALS Application (307) Internet Society Rural Development Special Interest Group has been received. * * The following question has been posed to the ALAC: * * ***** * Question: Does the ALAC wish to accredit the (307) Internet Society Rural Development Special Interest Group? The regional advice was to accept the application. * ***** * * Please note that this vote will close on Tuesday, 24 September 2019 23:59 UTC.
* Kind Regards, * * ICANN Policy Staff in support of the At-Large Community * Website: atlarge.icann.org[3] * Facebook: facebook.com/icann[4] atlarge[4] * Twitter: @[5] ICANNAtLarge[5]
* _______________________________________________ * ALAC-Announce mailing list * ALAC-Announce@atlarge-lists.icann.org * https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac-announce * At-Large Official Site: http://www.atlarge.icann.org * _______________________________________________ * By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy[6]) and the website Terms of Service ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos[7]). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
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Liens: ------ [1] http://tinyurl.com/ALAC-RoP-AdjDoc4-2013-07 [2] https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/pipermail/apac-discuss/2019-September/004952... [3] https://atlarge.icann.org/ [4] https://www.facebook.com/icannatlarge [5] https://twitter.com/ICANNAtLarge [6] https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy [7] https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos [8] https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALA... -- Tijani BENJEMAA Executive Director Mediterranean Federation of Internet Associations (FMAI) Telephone: +216 52 385 114
I would also just point out the observation that at this point in the evolution and development of ALAC/At-Large with our ARIWG operations looking at our ongoing implementation of Recommendations from the last review 8and* the emerging discussions and work in implementation of Recommendation #2 in particular, this is an ideal time to have this discussion and propose ofter full deliberation and possible changed of our Rules as outlined by Alan for example... So timing is good and you have a case to consider at the right time to do so in non-hypothetical terms... <https://about.me/cheryl.LangdonOrr?promo=email_sig&utm_source=product&utm_me...> Cheryl Langdon-Orr about.me/cheryl.LangdonOrr <https://about.me/cheryl.LangdonOrr?promo=email_sig&utm_source=product&utm_me...> On Thu, 19 Sep 2019 at 17:03, Tijani BEN JEMAA <tijani.benjemaa@topnet.tn> wrote:
Alan,
"but I have an aversion for doing things in violation of our own rules and the ICANN Bylaws." I agree 100%
Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> a écrit :
This is not a result of just our "rules", but is also a core principle from the ICANN Bylaws. I quote:
*The criteria and standards for the certification of At-Large Structures shall be established in such a way that participation by individual Internet users who are citizens or residents of countries within the Geographic Region of the RALO will predominate in the operation of each At-Large Structure within the RALO, while not necessarily excluding additional participation, compatible with the interests of the individual Internet users within the region, by others.*
I see two ways of "fixing" this. Both would require a Bylaw change (certainly possible).
1. Abolish RALOs and have all ALSes and unaffiliated members be one amorphous mass. This removes the need to identify an ALS with a specific RALO, since there are none.
2. Develop the concept of an ALS which crosses RALOs and thus does not belong to any of them.
If indeed we have a potential ALS that will really help At-Large, we don't want to lose them, but I have an aversion for doing things in violation of our own rules and the ICANN Bylaws.
Alan
At 17/09/2019 11:53 PM, Maureen Hilyard wrote:
Hi Olivier
Maybe the rules need changing. Just because a group has members from all over the world, why should we stop them from becoming members of At-Large.
The group currently had a leadership team whose members are all resident in the APRALO region. They are one of the few applications that I have seen that actually mentioned the DNS. As an ISOC chapter focusing on rural development, it probably has a majority of members from APRALO if all of its leadership team is from the same region.
Since our current rules only note the primary and secondary members of an ALS regardless of who is most active in our work in At-Large, when it comes to who the other members are, no-one really bothers to ask. I would hazard a guess that if we were to do an analysis (and were to be so picky) we would have several groups that have global members.
*If we get active participants out of this ALS* we should count ourselves lucky. That is the whole point of our ALS recruitment process. And as part of our Review we are finding that many of our processes need updating to keep up with the changing needs of the environments we are having to deal with.
EURALO itself has been faced with an anomaly which does not fit the rules, but we have found LACRALO to be very obliging to cater for it. And as we revise our ALS Criteria and Expectations we will have to include a new "rule" that allows for ALSes to participate in an event on a neighbouring country that "does not belong to the region in which they are situated". BIKLAB is now a precedent which will allow this to happen more within our system as long as there is agreement between the regions concerned.
APRALO has many small island countries in the Pacific that have been unable to participate in ICANN activities in their own right under our current rules because they are territories of big power countries (mainly in EURALO) who are given no support from their home region and would have no idea what EURALO was. Pacific countries are an anomaly because as all the 22 countries and territories of the Pacific are members of the Pacific Forum, they are therefore members of PICISOC, so in fact are members of an ALS already -- so we have international participants in our membership, even though they live in the Pacific.
Maureen
On Tue, 17 Sep 2019, 3:14 PM Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, <ocl@gih.com> wrote: Dear Maureen, I am very surprised to see this having reached the ALAC with a recommendation from APRALO that this should be accepted. This should have been picked up at Due Diligence: Internet Society Special Interest Groups are global as per the explanation on https://www.internetsociety.org/sigs This countervenes ALAC rules which specify that ALSes must be geographical. See tinyurl.com/ALAC-RoP-AdjDoc4-2013-07 "2. Be organised so that participation by individual Internet users who are citizens or residents of countries within the Geographic Region in which the ALS is based will predominate in the ALS' operation. The ALS may permit additional participation by others that is compatible with the interests of the individual Internet users within the region." The key words are "be organised" - and as much as I support the work of the Internet Society Rurel Special Interest Group, rural areas are not limited to Asia. Unless there is a commitment that this SIG will restrict the majority of its membership to come from the Asia region. The explicit response of the SIG in due diligence was "this is a global SIG". I also have a concern that it would be possible to create one SIG after another in ISOC and the meaning of ALS no longer applies as you are effectively creating votes. The question of "geographical" was asked on the APRALO mailing list as recently as 11 September 2019 ( https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/pipermail/apac-discuss/2019-September/004952... ) but I do not see any response to this. Kindest regards, Olivier On 18/09/2019 01:58, ICANN At-Large Staff wrote:
Dear All,
The regional advice from APRALO regarding the ALS Application (307) Internet Society Rural Development Special Interest Group has been received.
The following question has been posed to the ALAC:
***** Question: Does the ALAC wish to accredit the (307) Internet Society Rural Development Special Interest Group? The regional advice was to accept the application. *****
Please note that this vote will close on Tuesday, 24 September 2019 23:59 UTC.
Kind Regards,
ICANN Policy Staff in support of the At-Large Community Website: atlarge.icann.org Facebook: facebook.com/icann <https://www.facebook.com/icannatlarge> atlarge <https://www.facebook.com/icannatlarge> Twitter: @ <https://twitter.com/ICANNAtLarge> ICANNAtLarge <https://twitter.com/ICANNAtLarge>
_______________________________________________
ALAC-Announce mailing list ALAC-Announce@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac-announce At-Large Official Site: http://www.atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
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At-Large Online: http://www.atlarge.icann.org ALAC Working Wiki: https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALA... ) _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Tijani BENJEMAA* Executive Director Mediterranean Federation of Internet Associations (*FMAI*) Telephone: +216 52 385 114
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac
At-Large Online: http://www.atlarge.icann.org ALAC Working Wiki: https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALA...) _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
I agree with Alan on this one and I”d favor option 2 - develop a category of membership for organizations that represent a section of the interests of end users but do not have a particular geographic base. Holly
On Sep 20, 2019, at 1:12 AM, Cheryl Langdon-Orr <langdonorr@gmail.com> wrote:
I would also just point out the observation that at this point in the evolution and development of ALAC/At-Large with our ARIWG operations looking at our ongoing implementation of Recommendations from the last review 8and* the emerging discussions and work in implementation of Recommendation #2 in particular, this is an ideal time to have this discussion and propose ofter full deliberation and possible changed of our Rules as outlined by Alan for example... So timing is good and you have a case to consider at the right time to do so in non-hypothetical terms... <https://about.me/cheryl.LangdonOrr?promo=email_sig&utm_source=product&utm_me...> Cheryl Langdon-Orr about.me/cheryl.LangdonOrr <https://about.me/cheryl.LangdonOrr?promo=email_sig&utm_source=product&utm_me...>
On Thu, 19 Sep 2019 at 17:03, Tijani BEN JEMAA <tijani.benjemaa@topnet.tn <mailto:tijani.benjemaa@topnet.tn>> wrote: Alan,
"but I have an aversion for doing things in violation of our own rules and the ICANN Bylaws." I agree 100%
Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca <mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca>> a écrit :
This is not a result of just our "rules", but is also a core principle from the ICANN Bylaws. I quote:
The criteria and standards for the certification of At-Large Structures shall be established in such a way that participation by individual Internet users who are citizens or residents of countries within the Geographic Region of the RALO will predominate in the operation of each At-Large Structure within the RALO, while not necessarily excluding additional participation, compatible with the interests of the individual Internet users within the region, by others.
I see two ways of "fixing" this. Both would require a Bylaw change (certainly possible).
1. Abolish RALOs and have all ALSes and unaffiliated members be one amorphous mass. This removes the need to identify an ALS with a specific RALO, since there are none.
2. Develop the concept of an ALS which crosses RALOs and thus does not belong to any of them.
If indeed we have a potential ALS that will really help At-Large, we don't want to lose them, but I have an aversion for doing things in violation of our own rules and the ICANN Bylaws.
Alan
At 17/09/2019 11:53 PM, Maureen Hilyard wrote:
Hi Olivier
Maybe the rules need changing. Just because a group has members from all over the world, why should we stop them from becoming members of At-Large.
The group currently had a leadership team whose members are all resident in the APRALO region. They are one of the few applications that I have seen that actually mentioned the DNS. As an ISOC chapter focusing on rural development, it probably has a majority of members from APRALO if all of its leadership team is from the same region.
Since our current rules only note the primary and secondary members of an ALS regardless of who is most active in our work in At-Large, when it comes to who the other members are, no-one really bothers to ask. I would hazard a guess that if we were to do an analysis (and were to be so picky) we would have several groups that have global members.
If we get active participants out of this ALS we should count ourselves lucky. That is the whole point of our ALS recruitment process. And as part of our Review we are finding that many of our processes need updating to keep up with the changing needs of the environments we are having to deal with.
EURALO itself has been faced with an anomaly which does not fit the rules, but we have found LACRALO to be very obliging to cater for it. And as we revise our ALS Criteria and Expectations we will have to include a new "rule" that allows for ALSes to participate in an event on a neighbouring country that "does not belong to the region in which they are situated". BIKLAB is now a precedent which will allow this to happen more within our system as long as there is agreement between the regions concerned.
APRALO has many small island countries in the Pacific that have been unable to participate in ICANN activities in their own right under our current rules because they are territories of big power countries (mainly in EURALO) who are given no support from their home region and would have no idea what EURALO was. Pacific countries are an anomaly because as all the 22 countries and territories of the Pacific are members of the Pacific Forum, they are therefore members of PICISOC, so in fact are members of an ALS already -- so we have international participants in our membership, even though they live in the Pacific.
Maureen
On Tue, 17 Sep 2019, 3:14 PM Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, <ocl@gih.com <mailto:ocl@gih.com>> wrote:
Dear Maureen,
I am very surprised to see this having reached the ALAC with a recommendation from APRALO that this should be accepted. This should have been picked up at Due Diligence: Internet Society Special Interest Groups are global as per the explanation on https://www.internetsociety.org/sigs <https://www.internetsociety.org/sigs> This countervenes ALAC rules which specify that ALSes must be geographical. See tinyurl.com/ALAC-RoP-AdjDoc4-2013-07 <http://tinyurl.com/ALAC-RoP-AdjDoc4-2013-07>
"2. Be organised so that participation by individual Internet users who are citizens or residents of countries within the Geographic Region in which the ALS is based will predominate in the ALS' operation. The ALS may permit additional participation by others that is compatible with the interests of the individual Internet users within the region."
The key words are "be organised" - and as much as I support the work of the Internet Society Rurel Special Interest Group, rural areas are not limited to Asia. Unless there is a commitment that this SIG will restrict the majority of its membership to come from the Asia region. The explicit response of the SIG in due diligence was "this is a global SIG".
I also have a concern that it would be possible to create one SIG after another in ISOC and the meaning of ALS no longer applies as you are effectively creating votes.
The question of "geographical" was asked on the APRALO mailing list as recently as 11 September 2019 ( https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/pipermail/apac-discuss/2019-September/004952... <https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/pipermail/apac-discuss/2019-September/004952...> ) but I do not see any response to this.
Kindest regards,
Olivier
On 18/09/2019 01:58, ICANN At-Large Staff wrote:
Dear All,
The regional advice from APRALO regarding the ALS Application (307) Internet Society Rural Development Special Interest Group has been received.
The following question has been posed to the ALAC:
*****
Question: Does the ALAC wish to accredit the (307) Internet Society Rural Development Special Interest Group? The regional advice was to accept the application.
*****
Please note that this vote will close on Tuesday, 24 September 2019 23:59 UTC.
Kind Regards,
ICANN Policy Staff in support of the At-Large Community
Website: atlarge.icann.org <https://atlarge.icann.org/>
Facebook: facebook.com/icann <https://www.facebook.com/icannatlarge> atlarge <https://www.facebook.com/icannatlarge>
Twitter: @ <https://twitter.com/ICANNAtLarge> ICANNAtLarge <https://twitter.com/ICANNAtLarge>
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Tijani BENJEMAA Executive Director Mediterranean Federation of Internet Associations (FMAI) Telephone: +216 52 385 114 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Hi, Very interesting discussion indeed, and certainly a challenging issue. As I understand, end-users could be categorized in many many ways, e.g., by gender, by age, by religion, by nationality, by regions, etc. That is, it is a multi-dimensional problem per se. However, for the purpose of organizing the billions into groups, we did it in only one dimension, i.e., according to geographic locality (ALSs), then into regions (RALOs), and then into global (ALAC). This is because in the real world, nations, language and culture play a dominating role in our life. Each locality represents a (roughly) unified such factors, while nations and regions represent such similarities in a larger scale. However, this on-dimensional categorization cannot rule out other dimensions, or (special) interests, neither the following special interest groups (SIGs). Can we add other dimensions? Of course we can. However, that will make our organization into a (multi-dimensional) matrix structure instead of our current one dimensional top-down (or bottom-up) structure. How would ICANN operate under such a structure? Especially, how do we vote to make decisions? I don't know, and I don't think anybody knows. Thus, I do not see an easy solution to our problem. Therefore, I believe the best we can do is to find some way to compromise. That is, to provide a chance for these SIGs to have their voice heard, but not to jeopardize our current one-dimensional structure. In light of all the above, I would be in favor of not "officially" admitting an SIG without a regional identification as an ALS, but to welcome them in all our activities as "members" (not necessarily "individual members"), regardless of regions. On the other hand, within RALOs, as long as we cannot figure a way to change our one-dimensional structure, we preserve the rarely exercised voting rights to official ALSs (plus the rep of individual members). Meanwhile, I believe the non-affiliation requirement for individual members could be taken out, for I don't think it contributes much in any way. However, in the case of voting, the representative of individual members should primarily represent those who are unaffiliated. As a final note, I would still support the pending ALS to be admitted to APRALO as an ALS. This is because, at least for the time being, its presence is still primarily within the APRALO territory. In addition, I do not see any harm to anybody by admitting them, again, for the time being. Furthermore, if our five RALOs cannot agree to a single solution, I would suggest the Bylaws be changed into each RALO will be able to decide for themselves. Anyway, ALAC's voting is according to regions instead of ALSs. Thank you all. Kaili On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 9:41 AM Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net> wrote:
I agree with Alan on this one and I”d favor option 2 - develop a category of membership for organizations that represent a section of the interests of end users but do not have a particular geographic base.
Holly
On Sep 20, 2019, at 1:12 AM, Cheryl Langdon-Orr <langdonorr@gmail.com> wrote:
I would also just point out the observation that at this point in the evolution and development of ALAC/At-Large with our ARIWG operations looking at our ongoing implementation of Recommendations from the last review 8and* the emerging discussions and work in implementation of Recommendation #2 in particular, this is an ideal time to have this discussion and propose ofter full deliberation and possible changed of our Rules as outlined by Alan for example... So timing is good and you have a case to consider at the right time to do so in non-hypothetical terms...
<https://about.me/cheryl.LangdonOrr?promo=email_sig&utm_source=product&utm_me...> Cheryl Langdon-Orr about.me/cheryl.LangdonOrr <https://about.me/cheryl.LangdonOrr?promo=email_sig&utm_source=product&utm_me...>
On Thu, 19 Sep 2019 at 17:03, Tijani BEN JEMAA <tijani.benjemaa@topnet.tn> wrote:
Alan,
"but I have an aversion for doing things in violation of our own rules and the ICANN Bylaws." I agree 100%
Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> a écrit :
This is not a result of just our "rules", but is also a core principle from the ICANN Bylaws. I quote:
*The criteria and standards for the certification of At-Large Structures shall be established in such a way that participation by individual Internet users who are citizens or residents of countries within the Geographic Region of the RALO will predominate in the operation of each At-Large Structure within the RALO, while not necessarily excluding additional participation, compatible with the interests of the individual Internet users within the region, by others.*
I see two ways of "fixing" this. Both would require a Bylaw change (certainly possible).
1. Abolish RALOs and have all ALSes and unaffiliated members be one amorphous mass. This removes the need to identify an ALS with a specific RALO, since there are none.
2. Develop the concept of an ALS which crosses RALOs and thus does not belong to any of them.
If indeed we have a potential ALS that will really help At-Large, we don't want to lose them, but I have an aversion for doing things in violation of our own rules and the ICANN Bylaws.
Alan
At 17/09/2019 11:53 PM, Maureen Hilyard wrote:
Hi Olivier
Maybe the rules need changing. Just because a group has members from all over the world, why should we stop them from becoming members of At-Large.
The group currently had a leadership team whose members are all resident in the APRALO region. They are one of the few applications that I have seen that actually mentioned the DNS. As an ISOC chapter focusing on rural development, it probably has a majority of members from APRALO if all of its leadership team is from the same region.
Since our current rules only note the primary and secondary members of an ALS regardless of who is most active in our work in At-Large, when it comes to who the other members are, no-one really bothers to ask. I would hazard a guess that if we were to do an analysis (and were to be so picky) we would have several groups that have global members.
*If we get active participants out of this ALS* we should count ourselves lucky. That is the whole point of our ALS recruitment process. And as part of our Review we are finding that many of our processes need updating to keep up with the changing needs of the environments we are having to deal with.
EURALO itself has been faced with an anomaly which does not fit the rules, but we have found LACRALO to be very obliging to cater for it. And as we revise our ALS Criteria and Expectations we will have to include a new "rule" that allows for ALSes to participate in an event on a neighbouring country that "does not belong to the region in which they are situated". BIKLAB is now a precedent which will allow this to happen more within our system as long as there is agreement between the regions concerned.
APRALO has many small island countries in the Pacific that have been unable to participate in ICANN activities in their own right under our current rules because they are territories of big power countries (mainly in EURALO) who are given no support from their home region and would have no idea what EURALO was. Pacific countries are an anomaly because as all the 22 countries and territories of the Pacific are members of the Pacific Forum, they are therefore members of PICISOC, so in fact are members of an ALS already -- so we have international participants in our membership, even though they live in the Pacific.
Maureen
On Tue, 17 Sep 2019, 3:14 PM Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, <ocl@gih.com> wrote: Dear Maureen, I am very surprised to see this having reached the ALAC with a recommendation from APRALO that this should be accepted. This should have been picked up at Due Diligence: Internet Society Special Interest Groups are global as per the explanation on https://www.internetsociety.org/sigs This countervenes ALAC rules which specify that ALSes must be geographical. See tinyurl.com/ALAC-RoP-AdjDoc4-2013-07 "2. Be organised so that participation by individual Internet users who are citizens or residents of countries within the Geographic Region in which the ALS is based will predominate in the ALS' operation. The ALS may permit additional participation by others that is compatible with the interests of the individual Internet users within the region." The key words are "be organised" - and as much as I support the work of the Internet Society Rurel Special Interest Group, rural areas are not limited to Asia. Unless there is a commitment that this SIG will restrict the majority of its membership to come from the Asia region. The explicit response of the SIG in due diligence was "this is a global SIG". I also have a concern that it would be possible to create one SIG after another in ISOC and the meaning of ALS no longer applies as you are effectively creating votes. The question of "geographical" was asked on the APRALO mailing list as recently as 11 September 2019 ( https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/pipermail/apac-discuss/2019-September/004952... ) but I do not see any response to this. Kindest regards, Olivier On 18/09/2019 01:58, ICANN At-Large Staff wrote:
Dear All,
The regional advice from APRALO regarding the ALS Application (307) Internet Society Rural Development Special Interest Group has been received.
The following question has been posed to the ALAC:
***** Question: Does the ALAC wish to accredit the (307) Internet Society Rural Development Special Interest Group? The regional advice was to accept the application. *****
Please note that this vote will close on Tuesday, 24 September 2019 23:59 UTC.
Kind Regards,
ICANN Policy Staff in support of the At-Large Community Website: atlarge.icann.org Facebook: facebook.com/icann <https://www.facebook.com/icannatlarge> atlarge <https://www.facebook.com/icannatlarge> Twitter: @ <https://twitter.com/ICANNAtLarge> ICANNAtLarge <https://twitter.com/ICANNAtLarge>
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Tijani BENJEMAA* Executive Director Mediterranean Federation of Internet Associations (*FMAI*) Telephone: +216 52 385 114
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Hi Kaili Very interesting analysis. I support it. You seem to have given it a lot of thought Best Judith Sent from my iPhone Judith@jhellerstein.com Skype ID:Judithhellerstein
On Sep 20, 2019, at 1:27 PM, Kaili Kan <kankaili@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
Very interesting discussion indeed, and certainly a challenging issue.
As I understand, end-users could be categorized in many many ways, e.g., by gender, by age, by religion, by nationality, by regions, etc. That is, it is a multi-dimensional problem per se. However, for the purpose of organizing the billions into groups, we did it in only one dimension, i.e., according to geographic locality (ALSs), then into regions (RALOs), and then into global (ALAC). This is because in the real world, nations, language and culture play a dominating role in our life. Each locality represents a (roughly) unified such factors, while nations and regions represent such similarities in a larger scale.
However, this on-dimensional categorization cannot rule out other dimensions, or (special) interests, neither the following special interest groups (SIGs). Can we add other dimensions? Of course we can. However, that will make our organization into a (multi-dimensional) matrix structure instead of our current one dimensional top-down (or bottom-up) structure. How would ICANN operate under such a structure? Especially, how do we vote to make decisions? I don't know, and I don't think anybody knows. Thus, I do not see an easy solution to our problem.
Therefore, I believe the best we can do is to find some way to compromise. That is, to provide a chance for these SIGs to have their voice heard, but not to jeopardize our current one-dimensional structure.
In light of all the above, I would be in favor of not "officially" admitting an SIG without a regional identification as an ALS, but to welcome them in all our activities as "members" (not necessarily "individual members"), regardless of regions. On the other hand, within RALOs, as long as we cannot figure a way to change our one-dimensional structure, we preserve the rarely exercised voting rights to official ALSs (plus the rep of individual members).
Meanwhile, I believe the non-affiliation requirement for individual members could be taken out, for I don't think it contributes much in any way. However, in the case of voting, the representative of individual members should primarily represent those who are unaffiliated.
As a final note, I would still support the pending ALS to be admitted to APRALO as an ALS. This is because, at least for the time being, its presence is still primarily within the APRALO territory. In addition, I do not see any harm to anybody by admitting them, again, for the time being.
Furthermore, if our five RALOs cannot agree to a single solution, I would suggest the Bylaws be changed into each RALO will be able to decide for themselves. Anyway, ALAC's voting is according to regions instead of ALSs.
Thank you all.
Kaili
On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 9:41 AM Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net> wrote: I agree with Alan on this one and I”d favor option 2 - develop a category of membership for organizations that represent a section of the interests of end users but do not have a particular geographic base.
Holly
On Sep 20, 2019, at 1:12 AM, Cheryl Langdon-Orr <langdonorr@gmail.com> wrote:
I would also just point out the observation that at this point in the evolution and development of ALAC/At-Large with our ARIWG operations looking at our ongoing implementation of Recommendations from the last review 8and* the emerging discussions and work in implementation of Recommendation #2 in particular, this is an ideal time to have this discussion and propose ofter full deliberation and possible changed of our Rules as outlined by Alan for example... So timing is good and you have a case to consider at the right time to do so in non-hypothetical terms...
Cheryl Langdon-Orr about.me/cheryl.LangdonOrr
On Thu, 19 Sep 2019 at 17:03, Tijani BEN JEMAA <tijani.benjemaa@topnet.tn> wrote: Alan,
"but I have an aversion for doing things in violation of our own rules and the ICANN Bylaws." I agree 100%
Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> a écrit :
This is not a result of just our "rules", but is also a core principle from the ICANN Bylaws. I quote:
The criteria and standards for the certification of At-Large Structures shall be established in such a way that participation by individual Internet users who are citizens or residents of countries within the Geographic Region of the RALO will predominate in the operation of each At-Large Structure within the RALO, while not necessarily excluding additional participation, compatible with the interests of the individual Internet users within the region, by others.
I see two ways of "fixing" this. Both would require a Bylaw change (certainly possible).
1. Abolish RALOs and have all ALSes and unaffiliated members be one amorphous mass. This removes the need to identify an ALS with a specific RALO, since there are none.
2. Develop the concept of an ALS which crosses RALOs and thus does not belong to any of them.
If indeed we have a potential ALS that will really help At-Large, we don't want to lose them, but I have an aversion for doing things in violation of our own rules and the ICANN Bylaws.
Alan
At 17/09/2019 11:53 PM, Maureen Hilyard wrote:
Hi Olivier
Maybe the rules need changing. Just because a group has members from all over the world, why should we stop them from becoming members of At-Large.
The group currently had a leadership team whose members are all resident in the APRALO region. They are one of the few applications that I have seen that actually mentioned the DNS. As an ISOC chapter focusing on rural development, it probably has a majority of members from APRALO if all of its leadership team is from the same region.
Since our current rules only note the primary and secondary members of an ALS regardless of who is most active in our work in At-Large, when it comes to who the other members are, no-one really bothers to ask. I would hazard a guess that if we were to do an analysis (and were to be so picky) we would have several groups that have global members.
If we get active participants out of this ALS we should count ourselves lucky. That is the whole point of our ALS recruitment process. And as part of our Review we are finding that many of our processes need updating to keep up with the changing needs of the environments we are having to deal with.
EURALO itself has been faced with an anomaly which does not fit the rules, but we have found LACRALO to be very obliging to cater for it. And as we revise our ALS Criteria and Expectations we will have to include a new "rule" that allows for ALSes to participate in an event on a neighbouring country that "does not belong to the region in which they are situated". BIKLAB is now a precedent which will allow this to happen more within our system as long as there is agreement between the regions concerned.
APRALO has many small island countries in the Pacific that have been unable to participate in ICANN activities in their own right under our current rules because they are territories of big power countries (mainly in EURALO) who are given no support from their home region and would have no idea what EURALO was. Pacific countries are an anomaly because as all the 22 countries and territories of the Pacific are members of the Pacific Forum, they are therefore members of PICISOC, so in fact are members of an ALS already -- so we have international participants in our membership, even though they live in the Pacific.
Maureen
On Tue, 17 Sep 2019, 3:14 PM Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, <ocl@gih.com> wrote:
Dear Maureen,
I am very surprised to see this having reached the ALAC with a recommendation from APRALO that this should be accepted. This should have been picked up at Due Diligence: Internet Society Special Interest Groups are global as per the explanation on https://www.internetsociety.org/sigs This countervenes ALAC rules which specify that ALSes must be geographical. See tinyurl.com/ALAC-RoP-AdjDoc4-2013-07
"2. Be organised so that participation by individual Internet users who are citizens or residents of countries within the Geographic Region in which the ALS is based will predominate in the ALS' operation. The ALS may permit additional participation by others that is compatible with the interests of the individual Internet users within the region."
The key words are "be organised" - and as much as I support the work of the Internet Society Rurel Special Interest Group, rural areas are not limited to Asia. Unless there is a commitment that this SIG will restrict the majority of its membership to come from the Asia region. The explicit response of the SIG in due diligence was "this is a global SIG".
I also have a concern that it would be possible to create one SIG after another in ISOC and the meaning of ALS no longer applies as you are effectively creating votes.
The question of "geographical" was asked on the APRALO mailing list as recently as 11 September 2019 ( https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/pipermail/apac-discuss/2019-September/004952... ) but I do not see any response to this.
Kindest regards,
Olivier
> On 18/09/2019 01:58, ICANN At-Large Staff wrote: > > Dear All, > > > > The regional advice from APRALO regarding the ALS Application (307) Internet Society Rural Development Special Interest Group has been received. > > > > The following question has been posed to the ALAC: > > > > ***** > > Question: Does the ALAC wish to accredit the (307) Internet Society Rural Development Special Interest Group? The regional advice was to accept the application. > > ***** > > > > Please note that this vote will close on Tuesday, 24 September 2019 23:59 UTC. > > > Kind Regards, > > > > ICANN Policy Staff in support of the At-Large Community > > Website: atlarge.icann.org > > Facebook: facebook.com/icann atlarge > > Twitter: @ ICANNAtLarge > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ALAC-Announce mailing list > ALAC-Announce@atlarge-lists.icann.org > https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac-announce > At-Large Official Site: http://www.atlarge.icann.org > _______________________________________________ > By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Tijani BENJEMAA Executive Director Mediterranean Federation of Internet Associations (FMAI) Telephone: +216 52 385 114 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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At-Large Online: http://www.atlarge.icann.org ALAC Working Wiki: https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALA...) _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Good to see a discussion on possible At-Large models. A possible alternative : ICANN establishes At-Large Chapters in each country similiar in concept to Rotary or ISOC chapters. - each chapter is open to anyone interested in ICANN from the interests of end users. - ICANN can set guidelines for each chapter - some examples: must do certain level of outreach, have term limits, have a public F2F awareness meeting to recruit new persons. ICANN would need to provide some funding to make this happen but this would be small and the chapters can account to ICANN for expenses. - ICANN can provide the tools (mailing lists, conference tools) to facilitate online discussions. - Because there is a consistent brand - At-Large Chapter in the country, marketing/promoting is greatly simplified and easier to explain. - Given that such chapters are virtual, it makes chapters easy to establish with only a few individuals from a country without the challenges of having formal organisations with bylaws and pay taxes. So an At-Large chapter ends up being a virtual ALS in each country in the ALAC/RALO/ALS model. The RALOs will consist of the chapters from each country in the region with each chapter electing two persons to coordinate the RALO work. The RALO will be better positioned to better fulfil its MOUs with ICANN and the RALO and ALAC would not have to bother with analysing whether an organisation meets the criteria of an ALS. The At-Large chapters will be better able to network with At-Large chapters in other countries and build consensus on policy issues and help promote and grow the At-Large Community. Dev Anand On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 2:31 PM Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com> wrote:
Hi Kaili Very interesting analysis. I support it. You seem to have given it a lot of thought
Best Judith
Sent from my iPhone Judith@jhellerstein.com Skype ID:Judithhellerstein
On Sep 20, 2019, at 1:27 PM, Kaili Kan <kankaili@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
Very interesting discussion indeed, and certainly a challenging issue.
As I understand, end-users could be categorized in many many ways, e.g., by gender, by age, by religion, by nationality, by regions, etc. That is, it is a multi-dimensional problem per se. However, for the purpose of organizing the billions into groups, we did it in only one dimension, i.e., according to geographic locality (ALSs), then into regions (RALOs), and then into global (ALAC). This is because in the real world, nations, language and culture play a dominating role in our life. Each locality represents a (roughly) unified such factors, while nations and regions represent such similarities in a larger scale.
However, this on-dimensional categorization cannot rule out other dimensions, or (special) interests, neither the following special interest groups (SIGs). Can we add other dimensions? Of course we can. However, that will make our organization into a (multi-dimensional) matrix structure instead of our current one dimensional top-down (or bottom-up) structure. How would ICANN operate under such a structure? Especially, how do we vote to make decisions? I don't know, and I don't think anybody knows. Thus, I do not see an easy solution to our problem.
Therefore, I believe the best we can do is to find some way to compromise. That is, to provide a chance for these SIGs to have their voice heard, but not to jeopardize our current one-dimensional structure.
In light of all the above, I would be in favor of not "officially" admitting an SIG without a regional identification as an ALS, but to welcome them in all our activities as "members" (not necessarily "individual members"), regardless of regions. On the other hand, within RALOs, as long as we cannot figure a way to change our one-dimensional structure, we preserve the rarely exercised voting rights to official ALSs (plus the rep of individual members).
Meanwhile, I believe the non-affiliation requirement for individual members could be taken out, for I don't think it contributes much in any way. However, in the case of voting, the representative of individual members should primarily represent those who are unaffiliated.
As a final note, I would still support the pending ALS to be admitted to APRALO as an ALS. This is because, at least for the time being, its presence is still primarily within the APRALO territory. In addition, I do not see any harm to anybody by admitting them, again, for the time being.
Furthermore, if our five RALOs cannot agree to a single solution, I would suggest the Bylaws be changed into each RALO will be able to decide for themselves. Anyway, ALAC's voting is according to regions instead of ALSs.
Thank you all.
Kaili
On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 9:41 AM Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net> wrote:
I agree with Alan on this one and I”d favor option 2 - develop a category of membership for organizations that represent a section of the interests of end users but do not have a particular geographic base.
Holly
On Sep 20, 2019, at 1:12 AM, Cheryl Langdon-Orr <langdonorr@gmail.com> wrote:
I would also just point out the observation that at this point in the evolution and development of ALAC/At-Large with our ARIWG operations looking at our ongoing implementation of Recommendations from the last review 8and* the emerging discussions and work in implementation of Recommendation #2 in particular, this is an ideal time to have this discussion and propose ofter full deliberation and possible changed of our Rules as outlined by Alan for example... So timing is good and you have a case to consider at the right time to do so in non-hypothetical terms...
<https://about.me/cheryl.LangdonOrr?promo=email_sig&utm_source=product&utm_me...> Cheryl Langdon-Orr about.me/cheryl.LangdonOrr <https://about.me/cheryl.LangdonOrr?promo=email_sig&utm_source=product&utm_me...>
On Thu, 19 Sep 2019 at 17:03, Tijani BEN JEMAA <tijani.benjemaa@topnet.tn> wrote:
Alan,
"but I have an aversion for doing things in violation of our own rules and the ICANN Bylaws." I agree 100%
Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> a écrit :
This is not a result of just our "rules", but is also a core principle from the ICANN Bylaws. I quote:
*The criteria and standards for the certification of At-Large Structures shall be established in such a way that participation by individual Internet users who are citizens or residents of countries within the Geographic Region of the RALO will predominate in the operation of each At-Large Structure within the RALO, while not necessarily excluding additional participation, compatible with the interests of the individual Internet users within the region, by others.*
I see two ways of "fixing" this. Both would require a Bylaw change (certainly possible).
1. Abolish RALOs and have all ALSes and unaffiliated members be one amorphous mass. This removes the need to identify an ALS with a specific RALO, since there are none.
2. Develop the concept of an ALS which crosses RALOs and thus does not belong to any of them.
If indeed we have a potential ALS that will really help At-Large, we don't want to lose them, but I have an aversion for doing things in violation of our own rules and the ICANN Bylaws.
Alan
At 17/09/2019 11:53 PM, Maureen Hilyard wrote:
Hi Olivier
Maybe the rules need changing. Just because a group has members from all over the world, why should we stop them from becoming members of At-Large.
The group currently had a leadership team whose members are all resident in the APRALO region. They are one of the few applications that I have seen that actually mentioned the DNS. As an ISOC chapter focusing on rural development, it probably has a majority of members from APRALO if all of its leadership team is from the same region.
Since our current rules only note the primary and secondary members of an ALS regardless of who is most active in our work in At-Large, when it comes to who the other members are, no-one really bothers to ask. I would hazard a guess that if we were to do an analysis (and were to be so picky) we would have several groups that have global members.
*If we get active participants out of this ALS* we should count ourselves lucky. That is the whole point of our ALS recruitment process. And as part of our Review we are finding that many of our processes need updating to keep up with the changing needs of the environments we are having to deal with.
EURALO itself has been faced with an anomaly which does not fit the rules, but we have found LACRALO to be very obliging to cater for it. And as we revise our ALS Criteria and Expectations we will have to include a new "rule" that allows for ALSes to participate in an event on a neighbouring country that "does not belong to the region in which they are situated". BIKLAB is now a precedent which will allow this to happen more within our system as long as there is agreement between the regions concerned.
APRALO has many small island countries in the Pacific that have been unable to participate in ICANN activities in their own right under our current rules because they are territories of big power countries (mainly in EURALO) who are given no support from their home region and would have no idea what EURALO was. Pacific countries are an anomaly because as all the 22 countries and territories of the Pacific are members of the Pacific Forum, they are therefore members of PICISOC, so in fact are members of an ALS already -- so we have international participants in our membership, even though they live in the Pacific.
Maureen
On Tue, 17 Sep 2019, 3:14 PM Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, <ocl@gih.com> wrote: Dear Maureen, I am very surprised to see this having reached the ALAC with a recommendation from APRALO that this should be accepted. This should have been picked up at Due Diligence: Internet Society Special Interest Groups are global as per the explanation on https://www.internetsociety.org/sigs This countervenes ALAC rules which specify that ALSes must be geographical. See tinyurl.com/ALAC-RoP-AdjDoc4-2013-07 "2. Be organised so that participation by individual Internet users who are citizens or residents of countries within the Geographic Region in which the ALS is based will predominate in the ALS' operation. The ALS may permit additional participation by others that is compatible with the interests of the individual Internet users within the region." The key words are "be organised" - and as much as I support the work of the Internet Society Rurel Special Interest Group, rural areas are not limited to Asia. Unless there is a commitment that this SIG will restrict the majority of its membership to come from the Asia region. The explicit response of the SIG in due diligence was "this is a global SIG". I also have a concern that it would be possible to create one SIG after another in ISOC and the meaning of ALS no longer applies as you are effectively creating votes. The question of "geographical" was asked on the APRALO mailing list as recently as 11 September 2019 ( https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/pipermail/apac-discuss/2019-September/004952... ) but I do not see any response to this. Kindest regards, Olivier On 18/09/2019 01:58, ICANN At-Large Staff wrote:
Dear All,
The regional advice from APRALO regarding the ALS Application (307) Internet Society Rural Development Special Interest Group has been received.
The following question has been posed to the ALAC:
***** Question: Does the ALAC wish to accredit the (307) Internet Society Rural Development Special Interest Group? The regional advice was to accept the application. *****
Please note that this vote will close on Tuesday, 24 September 2019 23:59 UTC.
Kind Regards,
ICANN Policy Staff in support of the At-Large Community Website: atlarge.icann.org Facebook: facebook.com/icann <https://www.facebook.com/icannatlarge> atlarge <https://www.facebook.com/icannatlarge> Twitter: @ <https://twitter.com/ICANNAtLarge> ICANNAtLarge <https://twitter.com/ICANNAtLarge>
_______________________________________________
ALAC-Announce mailing list ALAC-Announce@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac-announce At-Large Official Site: http://www.atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac
At-Large Online: http://www.atlarge.icann.org ALAC Working Wiki: https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALA... ) _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Tijani BENJEMAA* Executive Director Mediterranean Federation of Internet Associations (*FMAI*) Telephone: +216 52 385 114
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac
At-Large Online: http://www.atlarge.icann.org ALAC Working Wiki: https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALA...) _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac
At-Large Online: http://www.atlarge.icann.org ALAC Working Wiki: https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALA...) _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac
At-Large Online: http://www.atlarge.icann.org ALAC Working Wiki: https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALA...) _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac
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Hi Dev This would be an interesting concept to bring to the discussions we have on the possible redevelopment of ALSes and individual membership. We are at a point where I believe we can make changes to our current models by taking in new ideas that will make At-Large less cumbersome but more inclusive without the hangups related to certain rules that are not working for us in our expectations of what we want to do, more effectively. This is a post-ATLAS discussion topic but a very important one and we need ideas such as this to get us all thinking about our whole ALS structure and what needs changing. Thank you Dev. Maureen On Mon, 23 Sep 2019, 4:09 AM Dev Anand Teelucksingh, <devtee@gmail.com> wrote:
Good to see a discussion on possible At-Large models. A possible alternative :
ICANN establishes At-Large Chapters in each country similiar in concept to Rotary or ISOC chapters.
- each chapter is open to anyone interested in ICANN from the interests of end users. - ICANN can set guidelines for each chapter - some examples: must do certain level of outreach, have term limits, have a public F2F awareness meeting to recruit new persons. ICANN would need to provide some funding to make this happen but this would be small and the chapters can account to ICANN for expenses. - ICANN can provide the tools (mailing lists, conference tools) to facilitate online discussions. - Because there is a consistent brand - At-Large Chapter in the country, marketing/promoting is greatly simplified and easier to explain. - Given that such chapters are virtual, it makes chapters easy to establish with only a few individuals from a country without the challenges of having formal organisations with bylaws and pay taxes.
So an At-Large chapter ends up being a virtual ALS in each country in the ALAC/RALO/ALS model.
The RALOs will consist of the chapters from each country in the region with each chapter electing two persons to coordinate the RALO work. The RALO will be better positioned to better fulfil its MOUs with ICANN and the RALO and ALAC would not have to bother with analysing whether an organisation meets the criteria of an ALS.
The At-Large chapters will be better able to network with At-Large chapters in other countries and build consensus on policy issues and help promote and grow the At-Large Community.
Dev Anand
On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 2:31 PM Judith Hellerstein < judith@jhellerstein.com> wrote:
Hi Kaili Very interesting analysis. I support it. You seem to have given it a lot of thought
Best Judith
Sent from my iPhone Judith@jhellerstein.com Skype ID:Judithhellerstein
On Sep 20, 2019, at 1:27 PM, Kaili Kan <kankaili@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
Very interesting discussion indeed, and certainly a challenging issue.
As I understand, end-users could be categorized in many many ways, e.g., by gender, by age, by religion, by nationality, by regions, etc. That is, it is a multi-dimensional problem per se. However, for the purpose of organizing the billions into groups, we did it in only one dimension, i.e., according to geographic locality (ALSs), then into regions (RALOs), and then into global (ALAC). This is because in the real world, nations, language and culture play a dominating role in our life. Each locality represents a (roughly) unified such factors, while nations and regions represent such similarities in a larger scale.
However, this on-dimensional categorization cannot rule out other dimensions, or (special) interests, neither the following special interest groups (SIGs). Can we add other dimensions? Of course we can. However, that will make our organization into a (multi-dimensional) matrix structure instead of our current one dimensional top-down (or bottom-up) structure. How would ICANN operate under such a structure? Especially, how do we vote to make decisions? I don't know, and I don't think anybody knows. Thus, I do not see an easy solution to our problem.
Therefore, I believe the best we can do is to find some way to compromise. That is, to provide a chance for these SIGs to have their voice heard, but not to jeopardize our current one-dimensional structure.
In light of all the above, I would be in favor of not "officially" admitting an SIG without a regional identification as an ALS, but to welcome them in all our activities as "members" (not necessarily "individual members"), regardless of regions. On the other hand, within RALOs, as long as we cannot figure a way to change our one-dimensional structure, we preserve the rarely exercised voting rights to official ALSs (plus the rep of individual members).
Meanwhile, I believe the non-affiliation requirement for individual members could be taken out, for I don't think it contributes much in any way. However, in the case of voting, the representative of individual members should primarily represent those who are unaffiliated.
As a final note, I would still support the pending ALS to be admitted to APRALO as an ALS. This is because, at least for the time being, its presence is still primarily within the APRALO territory. In addition, I do not see any harm to anybody by admitting them, again, for the time being.
Furthermore, if our five RALOs cannot agree to a single solution, I would suggest the Bylaws be changed into each RALO will be able to decide for themselves. Anyway, ALAC's voting is according to regions instead of ALSs.
Thank you all.
Kaili
On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 9:41 AM Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net> wrote:
I agree with Alan on this one and I”d favor option 2 - develop a category of membership for organizations that represent a section of the interests of end users but do not have a particular geographic base.
Holly
On Sep 20, 2019, at 1:12 AM, Cheryl Langdon-Orr <langdonorr@gmail.com> wrote:
I would also just point out the observation that at this point in the evolution and development of ALAC/At-Large with our ARIWG operations looking at our ongoing implementation of Recommendations from the last review 8and* the emerging discussions and work in implementation of Recommendation #2 in particular, this is an ideal time to have this discussion and propose ofter full deliberation and possible changed of our Rules as outlined by Alan for example... So timing is good and you have a case to consider at the right time to do so in non-hypothetical terms...
<https://about.me/cheryl.LangdonOrr?promo=email_sig&utm_source=product&utm_me...> Cheryl Langdon-Orr about.me/cheryl.LangdonOrr <https://about.me/cheryl.LangdonOrr?promo=email_sig&utm_source=product&utm_me...>
On Thu, 19 Sep 2019 at 17:03, Tijani BEN JEMAA < tijani.benjemaa@topnet.tn> wrote:
Alan,
"but I have an aversion for doing things in violation of our own rules and the ICANN Bylaws." I agree 100%
Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> a écrit :
This is not a result of just our "rules", but is also a core principle from the ICANN Bylaws. I quote:
*The criteria and standards for the certification of At-Large Structures shall be established in such a way that participation by individual Internet users who are citizens or residents of countries within the Geographic Region of the RALO will predominate in the operation of each At-Large Structure within the RALO, while not necessarily excluding additional participation, compatible with the interests of the individual Internet users within the region, by others.*
I see two ways of "fixing" this. Both would require a Bylaw change (certainly possible).
1. Abolish RALOs and have all ALSes and unaffiliated members be one amorphous mass. This removes the need to identify an ALS with a specific RALO, since there are none.
2. Develop the concept of an ALS which crosses RALOs and thus does not belong to any of them.
If indeed we have a potential ALS that will really help At-Large, we don't want to lose them, but I have an aversion for doing things in violation of our own rules and the ICANN Bylaws.
Alan
At 17/09/2019 11:53 PM, Maureen Hilyard wrote:
Hi Olivier
Maybe the rules need changing. Just because a group has members from all over the world, why should we stop them from becoming members of At-Large.
The group currently had a leadership team whose members are all resident in the APRALO region. They are one of the few applications that I have seen that actually mentioned the DNS. As an ISOC chapter focusing on rural development, it probably has a majority of members from APRALO if all of its leadership team is from the same region.
Since our current rules only note the primary and secondary members of an ALS regardless of who is most active in our work in At-Large, when it comes to who the other members are, no-one really bothers to ask. I would hazard a guess that if we were to do an analysis (and were to be so picky) we would have several groups that have global members.
*If we get active participants out of this ALS* we should count ourselves lucky. That is the whole point of our ALS recruitment process. And as part of our Review we are finding that many of our processes need updating to keep up with the changing needs of the environments we are having to deal with.
EURALO itself has been faced with an anomaly which does not fit the rules, but we have found LACRALO to be very obliging to cater for it. And as we revise our ALS Criteria and Expectations we will have to include a new "rule" that allows for ALSes to participate in an event on a neighbouring country that "does not belong to the region in which they are situated". BIKLAB is now a precedent which will allow this to happen more within our system as long as there is agreement between the regions concerned.
APRALO has many small island countries in the Pacific that have been unable to participate in ICANN activities in their own right under our current rules because they are territories of big power countries (mainly in EURALO) who are given no support from their home region and would have no idea what EURALO was. Pacific countries are an anomaly because as all the 22 countries and territories of the Pacific are members of the Pacific Forum, they are therefore members of PICISOC, so in fact are members of an ALS already -- so we have international participants in our membership, even though they live in the Pacific.
Maureen
On Tue, 17 Sep 2019, 3:14 PM Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, <ocl@gih.com> wrote: Dear Maureen, I am very surprised to see this having reached the ALAC with a recommendation from APRALO that this should be accepted. This should have been picked up at Due Diligence: Internet Society Special Interest Groups are global as per the explanation on https://www.internetsociety.org/sigs This countervenes ALAC rules which specify that ALSes must be geographical. See tinyurl.com/ALAC-RoP-AdjDoc4-2013-07 "2. Be organised so that participation by individual Internet users who are citizens or residents of countries within the Geographic Region in which the ALS is based will predominate in the ALS' operation. The ALS may permit additional participation by others that is compatible with the interests of the individual Internet users within the region." The key words are "be organised" - and as much as I support the work of the Internet Society Rurel Special Interest Group, rural areas are not limited to Asia. Unless there is a commitment that this SIG will restrict the majority of its membership to come from the Asia region. The explicit response of the SIG in due diligence was "this is a global SIG". I also have a concern that it would be possible to create one SIG after another in ISOC and the meaning of ALS no longer applies as you are effectively creating votes. The question of "geographical" was asked on the APRALO mailing list as recently as 11 September 2019 ( https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/pipermail/apac-discuss/2019-September/004952... ) but I do not see any response to this. Kindest regards, Olivier On 18/09/2019 01:58, ICANN At-Large Staff wrote:
Dear All,
The regional advice from APRALO regarding the ALS Application (307) Internet Society Rural Development Special Interest Group has been received.
The following question has been posed to the ALAC:
***** Question: Does the ALAC wish to accredit the (307) Internet Society Rural Development Special Interest Group? The regional advice was to accept the application. *****
Please note that this vote will close on Tuesday, 24 September 2019 23:59 UTC.
Kind Regards,
ICANN Policy Staff in support of the At-Large Community Website: atlarge.icann.org Facebook: facebook.com/icann <https://www.facebook.com/icannatlarge> atlarge <https://www.facebook.com/icannatlarge> Twitter: @ <https://twitter.com/ICANNAtLarge> ICANNAtLarge <https://twitter.com/ICANNAtLarge>
_______________________________________________
ALAC-Announce mailing list ALAC-Announce@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac-announce At-Large Official Site: http://www.atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac
At-Large Online: http://www.atlarge.icann.org ALAC Working Wiki: https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALA... ) _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Tijani BENJEMAA* Executive Director Mediterranean Federation of Internet Associations (*FMAI*) Telephone: +216 52 385 114
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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In the case of IEEE the member categories are Voting Fellow, Graduate Student Member, Honorary Member, Life Fellow, Life Member, Life Senior Member, Member, Senior Member. Non Voting Associate Details on the granularity of the IEEE membership is worth reviewing https://www.ieee.org/membership/qualifications.html G Glenn McKnight NARALO Secretariat until Nov 2, 2019 ICANN NOMCOM 2019-2021 mcknight.glenn@gmail.com Curator for Internet Governance Hub Blog www.internetgovernancehub.blog <http://www.internetgovernancehub.blog> http://toronto.ieee.ca/ IEEE Toronto SIGHT Chair glenn.mcknight@ieee.org skype gmcknight twitter gmcknight 289-830 6259 . On Mon, Sep 23, 2019 at 2:53 PM Maureen Hilyard <maureen.hilyard@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Dev
This would be an interesting concept to bring to the discussions we have on the possible redevelopment of ALSes and individual membership. We are at a point where I believe we can make changes to our current models by taking in new ideas that will make At-Large less cumbersome but more inclusive without the hangups related to certain rules that are not working for us in our expectations of what we want to do, more effectively.
This is a post-ATLAS discussion topic but a very important one and we need ideas such as this to get us all thinking about our whole ALS structure and what needs changing.
Thank you Dev. Maureen
On Mon, 23 Sep 2019, 4:09 AM Dev Anand Teelucksingh, <devtee@gmail.com> wrote:
Good to see a discussion on possible At-Large models. A possible alternative :
ICANN establishes At-Large Chapters in each country similiar in concept to Rotary or ISOC chapters.
- each chapter is open to anyone interested in ICANN from the interests of end users. - ICANN can set guidelines for each chapter - some examples: must do certain level of outreach, have term limits, have a public F2F awareness meeting to recruit new persons. ICANN would need to provide some funding to make this happen but this would be small and the chapters can account to ICANN for expenses. - ICANN can provide the tools (mailing lists, conference tools) to facilitate online discussions. - Because there is a consistent brand - At-Large Chapter in the country, marketing/promoting is greatly simplified and easier to explain. - Given that such chapters are virtual, it makes chapters easy to establish with only a few individuals from a country without the challenges of having formal organisations with bylaws and pay taxes.
So an At-Large chapter ends up being a virtual ALS in each country in the ALAC/RALO/ALS model.
The RALOs will consist of the chapters from each country in the region with each chapter electing two persons to coordinate the RALO work. The RALO will be better positioned to better fulfil its MOUs with ICANN and the RALO and ALAC would not have to bother with analysing whether an organisation meets the criteria of an ALS.
The At-Large chapters will be better able to network with At-Large chapters in other countries and build consensus on policy issues and help promote and grow the At-Large Community.
Dev Anand
On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 2:31 PM Judith Hellerstein < judith@jhellerstein.com> wrote:
Hi Kaili Very interesting analysis. I support it. You seem to have given it a lot of thought
Best Judith
Sent from my iPhone Judith@jhellerstein.com Skype ID:Judithhellerstein
On Sep 20, 2019, at 1:27 PM, Kaili Kan <kankaili@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
Very interesting discussion indeed, and certainly a challenging issue.
As I understand, end-users could be categorized in many many ways, e.g., by gender, by age, by religion, by nationality, by regions, etc. That is, it is a multi-dimensional problem per se. However, for the purpose of organizing the billions into groups, we did it in only one dimension, i.e., according to geographic locality (ALSs), then into regions (RALOs), and then into global (ALAC). This is because in the real world, nations, language and culture play a dominating role in our life. Each locality represents a (roughly) unified such factors, while nations and regions represent such similarities in a larger scale.
However, this on-dimensional categorization cannot rule out other dimensions, or (special) interests, neither the following special interest groups (SIGs). Can we add other dimensions? Of course we can. However, that will make our organization into a (multi-dimensional) matrix structure instead of our current one dimensional top-down (or bottom-up) structure. How would ICANN operate under such a structure? Especially, how do we vote to make decisions? I don't know, and I don't think anybody knows. Thus, I do not see an easy solution to our problem.
Therefore, I believe the best we can do is to find some way to compromise. That is, to provide a chance for these SIGs to have their voice heard, but not to jeopardize our current one-dimensional structure.
In light of all the above, I would be in favor of not "officially" admitting an SIG without a regional identification as an ALS, but to welcome them in all our activities as "members" (not necessarily "individual members"), regardless of regions. On the other hand, within RALOs, as long as we cannot figure a way to change our one-dimensional structure, we preserve the rarely exercised voting rights to official ALSs (plus the rep of individual members).
Meanwhile, I believe the non-affiliation requirement for individual members could be taken out, for I don't think it contributes much in any way. However, in the case of voting, the representative of individual members should primarily represent those who are unaffiliated.
As a final note, I would still support the pending ALS to be admitted to APRALO as an ALS. This is because, at least for the time being, its presence is still primarily within the APRALO territory. In addition, I do not see any harm to anybody by admitting them, again, for the time being.
Furthermore, if our five RALOs cannot agree to a single solution, I would suggest the Bylaws be changed into each RALO will be able to decide for themselves. Anyway, ALAC's voting is according to regions instead of ALSs.
Thank you all.
Kaili
On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 9:41 AM Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net> wrote:
I agree with Alan on this one and I”d favor option 2 - develop a category of membership for organizations that represent a section of the interests of end users but do not have a particular geographic base.
Holly
On Sep 20, 2019, at 1:12 AM, Cheryl Langdon-Orr <langdonorr@gmail.com> wrote:
I would also just point out the observation that at this point in the evolution and development of ALAC/At-Large with our ARIWG operations looking at our ongoing implementation of Recommendations from the last review 8and* the emerging discussions and work in implementation of Recommendation #2 in particular, this is an ideal time to have this discussion and propose ofter full deliberation and possible changed of our Rules as outlined by Alan for example... So timing is good and you have a case to consider at the right time to do so in non-hypothetical terms...
<https://about.me/cheryl.LangdonOrr?promo=email_sig&utm_source=product&utm_me...> Cheryl Langdon-Orr about.me/cheryl.LangdonOrr <https://about.me/cheryl.LangdonOrr?promo=email_sig&utm_source=product&utm_me...>
On Thu, 19 Sep 2019 at 17:03, Tijani BEN JEMAA < tijani.benjemaa@topnet.tn> wrote:
Alan,
"but I have an aversion for doing things in violation of our own rules and the ICANN Bylaws." I agree 100%
Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> a écrit :
This is not a result of just our "rules", but is also a core principle from the ICANN Bylaws. I quote:
*The criteria and standards for the certification of At-Large Structures shall be established in such a way that participation by individual Internet users who are citizens or residents of countries within the Geographic Region of the RALO will predominate in the operation of each At-Large Structure within the RALO, while not necessarily excluding additional participation, compatible with the interests of the individual Internet users within the region, by others.*
I see two ways of "fixing" this. Both would require a Bylaw change (certainly possible).
1. Abolish RALOs and have all ALSes and unaffiliated members be one amorphous mass. This removes the need to identify an ALS with a specific RALO, since there are none.
2. Develop the concept of an ALS which crosses RALOs and thus does not belong to any of them.
If indeed we have a potential ALS that will really help At-Large, we don't want to lose them, but I have an aversion for doing things in violation of our own rules and the ICANN Bylaws.
Alan
At 17/09/2019 11:53 PM, Maureen Hilyard wrote:
Hi Olivier
Maybe the rules need changing. Just because a group has members from all over the world, why should we stop them from becoming members of At-Large.
The group currently had a leadership team whose members are all resident in the APRALO region. They are one of the few applications that I have seen that actually mentioned the DNS. As an ISOC chapter focusing on rural development, it probably has a majority of members from APRALO if all of its leadership team is from the same region.
Since our current rules only note the primary and secondary members of an ALS regardless of who is most active in our work in At-Large, when it comes to who the other members are, no-one really bothers to ask. I would hazard a guess that if we were to do an analysis (and were to be so picky) we would have several groups that have global members.
*If we get active participants out of this ALS* we should count ourselves lucky. That is the whole point of our ALS recruitment process. And as part of our Review we are finding that many of our processes need updating to keep up with the changing needs of the environments we are having to deal with.
EURALO itself has been faced with an anomaly which does not fit the rules, but we have found LACRALO to be very obliging to cater for it. And as we revise our ALS Criteria and Expectations we will have to include a new "rule" that allows for ALSes to participate in an event on a neighbouring country that "does not belong to the region in which they are situated". BIKLAB is now a precedent which will allow this to happen more within our system as long as there is agreement between the regions concerned.
APRALO has many small island countries in the Pacific that have been unable to participate in ICANN activities in their own right under our current rules because they are territories of big power countries (mainly in EURALO) who are given no support from their home region and would have no idea what EURALO was. Pacific countries are an anomaly because as all the 22 countries and territories of the Pacific are members of the Pacific Forum, they are therefore members of PICISOC, so in fact are members of an ALS already -- so we have international participants in our membership, even though they live in the Pacific.
Maureen
On Tue, 17 Sep 2019, 3:14 PM Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, <ocl@gih.com> wrote: Dear Maureen, I am very surprised to see this having reached the ALAC with a recommendation from APRALO that this should be accepted. This should have been picked up at Due Diligence: Internet Society Special Interest Groups are global as per the explanation on https://www.internetsociety.org/sigs This countervenes ALAC rules which specify that ALSes must be geographical. See tinyurl.com/ALAC-RoP-AdjDoc4-2013-07 "2. Be organised so that participation by individual Internet users who are citizens or residents of countries within the Geographic Region in which the ALS is based will predominate in the ALS' operation. The ALS may permit additional participation by others that is compatible with the interests of the individual Internet users within the region." The key words are "be organised" - and as much as I support the work of the Internet Society Rurel Special Interest Group, rural areas are not limited to Asia. Unless there is a commitment that this SIG will restrict the majority of its membership to come from the Asia region. The explicit response of the SIG in due diligence was "this is a global SIG". I also have a concern that it would be possible to create one SIG after another in ISOC and the meaning of ALS no longer applies as you are effectively creating votes. The question of "geographical" was asked on the APRALO mailing list as recently as 11 September 2019 ( https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/pipermail/apac-discuss/2019-September/004952... ) but I do not see any response to this. Kindest regards, Olivier On 18/09/2019 01:58, ICANN At-Large Staff wrote:
Dear All,
The regional advice from APRALO regarding the ALS Application (307) Internet Society Rural Development Special Interest Group has been received.
The following question has been posed to the ALAC:
***** Question: Does the ALAC wish to accredit the (307) Internet Society Rural Development Special Interest Group? The regional advice was to accept the application. *****
Please note that this vote will close on Tuesday, 24 September 2019 23:59 UTC.
Kind Regards,
ICANN Policy Staff in support of the At-Large Community Website: atlarge.icann.org Facebook: facebook.com/icann <https://www.facebook.com/icannatlarge> atlarge <https://www.facebook.com/icannatlarge> Twitter: @ <https://twitter.com/ICANNAtLarge> ICANNAtLarge <https://twitter.com/ICANNAtLarge>
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Tijani BENJEMAA* Executive Director Mediterranean Federation of Internet Associations (*FMAI*) Telephone: +216 52 385 114
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Hello Dev, This an interesting a path we have walked through in the past. I think a fundamental ask would be whether legal existence and administrative maintenance overhead involved in having such standalone/dedicated set-up will be bearable but more importantly whether it will sustainable. Regards Sent from my mobile Kindly excuse brevity and typos On Mon, 23 Sep 2019, 15:09 Dev Anand Teelucksingh, <devtee@gmail.com> wrote:
Good to see a discussion on possible At-Large models. A possible alternative :
ICANN establishes At-Large Chapters in each country similiar in concept to Rotary or ISOC chapters.
- each chapter is open to anyone interested in ICANN from the interests of end users. - ICANN can set guidelines for each chapter - some examples: must do certain level of outreach, have term limits, have a public F2F awareness meeting to recruit new persons. ICANN would need to provide some funding to make this happen but this would be small and the chapters can account to ICANN for expenses. - ICANN can provide the tools (mailing lists, conference tools) to facilitate online discussions. - Because there is a consistent brand - At-Large Chapter in the country, marketing/promoting is greatly simplified and easier to explain. - Given that such chapters are virtual, it makes chapters easy to establish with only a few individuals from a country without the challenges of having formal organisations with bylaws and pay taxes.
So an At-Large chapter ends up being a virtual ALS in each country in the ALAC/RALO/ALS model.
The RALOs will consist of the chapters from each country in the region with each chapter electing two persons to coordinate the RALO work. The RALO will be better positioned to better fulfil its MOUs with ICANN and the RALO and ALAC would not have to bother with analysing whether an organisation meets the criteria of an ALS.
The At-Large chapters will be better able to network with At-Large chapters in other countries and build consensus on policy issues and help promote and grow the At-Large Community.
Dev Anand
On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 2:31 PM Judith Hellerstein < judith@jhellerstein.com> wrote:
Hi Kaili Very interesting analysis. I support it. You seem to have given it a lot of thought
Best Judith
Sent from my iPhone Judith@jhellerstein.com Skype ID:Judithhellerstein
On Sep 20, 2019, at 1:27 PM, Kaili Kan <kankaili@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
Very interesting discussion indeed, and certainly a challenging issue.
As I understand, end-users could be categorized in many many ways, e.g., by gender, by age, by religion, by nationality, by regions, etc. That is, it is a multi-dimensional problem per se. However, for the purpose of organizing the billions into groups, we did it in only one dimension, i.e., according to geographic locality (ALSs), then into regions (RALOs), and then into global (ALAC). This is because in the real world, nations, language and culture play a dominating role in our life. Each locality represents a (roughly) unified such factors, while nations and regions represent such similarities in a larger scale.
However, this on-dimensional categorization cannot rule out other dimensions, or (special) interests, neither the following special interest groups (SIGs). Can we add other dimensions? Of course we can. However, that will make our organization into a (multi-dimensional) matrix structure instead of our current one dimensional top-down (or bottom-up) structure. How would ICANN operate under such a structure? Especially, how do we vote to make decisions? I don't know, and I don't think anybody knows. Thus, I do not see an easy solution to our problem.
Therefore, I believe the best we can do is to find some way to compromise. That is, to provide a chance for these SIGs to have their voice heard, but not to jeopardize our current one-dimensional structure.
In light of all the above, I would be in favor of not "officially" admitting an SIG without a regional identification as an ALS, but to welcome them in all our activities as "members" (not necessarily "individual members"), regardless of regions. On the other hand, within RALOs, as long as we cannot figure a way to change our one-dimensional structure, we preserve the rarely exercised voting rights to official ALSs (plus the rep of individual members).
Meanwhile, I believe the non-affiliation requirement for individual members could be taken out, for I don't think it contributes much in any way. However, in the case of voting, the representative of individual members should primarily represent those who are unaffiliated.
As a final note, I would still support the pending ALS to be admitted to APRALO as an ALS. This is because, at least for the time being, its presence is still primarily within the APRALO territory. In addition, I do not see any harm to anybody by admitting them, again, for the time being.
Furthermore, if our five RALOs cannot agree to a single solution, I would suggest the Bylaws be changed into each RALO will be able to decide for themselves. Anyway, ALAC's voting is according to regions instead of ALSs.
Thank you all.
Kaili
On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 9:41 AM Holly Raiche <h.raiche@internode.on.net> wrote:
I agree with Alan on this one and I”d favor option 2 - develop a category of membership for organizations that represent a section of the interests of end users but do not have a particular geographic base.
Holly
On Sep 20, 2019, at 1:12 AM, Cheryl Langdon-Orr <langdonorr@gmail.com> wrote:
I would also just point out the observation that at this point in the evolution and development of ALAC/At-Large with our ARIWG operations looking at our ongoing implementation of Recommendations from the last review 8and* the emerging discussions and work in implementation of Recommendation #2 in particular, this is an ideal time to have this discussion and propose ofter full deliberation and possible changed of our Rules as outlined by Alan for example... So timing is good and you have a case to consider at the right time to do so in non-hypothetical terms...
<https://about.me/cheryl.LangdonOrr?promo=email_sig&utm_source=product&utm_me...> Cheryl Langdon-Orr about.me/cheryl.LangdonOrr <https://about.me/cheryl.LangdonOrr?promo=email_sig&utm_source=product&utm_me...>
On Thu, 19 Sep 2019 at 17:03, Tijani BEN JEMAA < tijani.benjemaa@topnet.tn> wrote:
Alan,
"but I have an aversion for doing things in violation of our own rules and the ICANN Bylaws." I agree 100%
Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> a écrit :
This is not a result of just our "rules", but is also a core principle from the ICANN Bylaws. I quote:
*The criteria and standards for the certification of At-Large Structures shall be established in such a way that participation by individual Internet users who are citizens or residents of countries within the Geographic Region of the RALO will predominate in the operation of each At-Large Structure within the RALO, while not necessarily excluding additional participation, compatible with the interests of the individual Internet users within the region, by others.*
I see two ways of "fixing" this. Both would require a Bylaw change (certainly possible).
1. Abolish RALOs and have all ALSes and unaffiliated members be one amorphous mass. This removes the need to identify an ALS with a specific RALO, since there are none.
2. Develop the concept of an ALS which crosses RALOs and thus does not belong to any of them.
If indeed we have a potential ALS that will really help At-Large, we don't want to lose them, but I have an aversion for doing things in violation of our own rules and the ICANN Bylaws.
Alan
At 17/09/2019 11:53 PM, Maureen Hilyard wrote:
Hi Olivier
Maybe the rules need changing. Just because a group has members from all over the world, why should we stop them from becoming members of At-Large.
The group currently had a leadership team whose members are all resident in the APRALO region. They are one of the few applications that I have seen that actually mentioned the DNS. As an ISOC chapter focusing on rural development, it probably has a majority of members from APRALO if all of its leadership team is from the same region.
Since our current rules only note the primary and secondary members of an ALS regardless of who is most active in our work in At-Large, when it comes to who the other members are, no-one really bothers to ask. I would hazard a guess that if we were to do an analysis (and were to be so picky) we would have several groups that have global members.
*If we get active participants out of this ALS* we should count ourselves lucky. That is the whole point of our ALS recruitment process. And as part of our Review we are finding that many of our processes need updating to keep up with the changing needs of the environments we are having to deal with.
EURALO itself has been faced with an anomaly which does not fit the rules, but we have found LACRALO to be very obliging to cater for it. And as we revise our ALS Criteria and Expectations we will have to include a new "rule" that allows for ALSes to participate in an event on a neighbouring country that "does not belong to the region in which they are situated". BIKLAB is now a precedent which will allow this to happen more within our system as long as there is agreement between the regions concerned.
APRALO has many small island countries in the Pacific that have been unable to participate in ICANN activities in their own right under our current rules because they are territories of big power countries (mainly in EURALO) who are given no support from their home region and would have no idea what EURALO was. Pacific countries are an anomaly because as all the 22 countries and territories of the Pacific are members of the Pacific Forum, they are therefore members of PICISOC, so in fact are members of an ALS already -- so we have international participants in our membership, even though they live in the Pacific.
Maureen
On Tue, 17 Sep 2019, 3:14 PM Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, <ocl@gih.com> wrote: Dear Maureen, I am very surprised to see this having reached the ALAC with a recommendation from APRALO that this should be accepted. This should have been picked up at Due Diligence: Internet Society Special Interest Groups are global as per the explanation on https://www.internetsociety.org/sigs This countervenes ALAC rules which specify that ALSes must be geographical. See tinyurl.com/ALAC-RoP-AdjDoc4-2013-07 "2. Be organised so that participation by individual Internet users who are citizens or residents of countries within the Geographic Region in which the ALS is based will predominate in the ALS' operation. The ALS may permit additional participation by others that is compatible with the interests of the individual Internet users within the region." The key words are "be organised" - and as much as I support the work of the Internet Society Rurel Special Interest Group, rural areas are not limited to Asia. Unless there is a commitment that this SIG will restrict the majority of its membership to come from the Asia region. The explicit response of the SIG in due diligence was "this is a global SIG". I also have a concern that it would be possible to create one SIG after another in ISOC and the meaning of ALS no longer applies as you are effectively creating votes. The question of "geographical" was asked on the APRALO mailing list as recently as 11 September 2019 ( https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/pipermail/apac-discuss/2019-September/004952... ) but I do not see any response to this. Kindest regards, Olivier On 18/09/2019 01:58, ICANN At-Large Staff wrote:
Dear All,
The regional advice from APRALO regarding the ALS Application (307) Internet Society Rural Development Special Interest Group has been received.
The following question has been posed to the ALAC:
***** Question: Does the ALAC wish to accredit the (307) Internet Society Rural Development Special Interest Group? The regional advice was to accept the application. *****
Please note that this vote will close on Tuesday, 24 September 2019 23:59 UTC.
Kind Regards,
ICANN Policy Staff in support of the At-Large Community Website: atlarge.icann.org Facebook: facebook.com/icann <https://www.facebook.com/icannatlarge> atlarge <https://www.facebook.com/icannatlarge> Twitter: @ <https://twitter.com/ICANNAtLarge> ICANNAtLarge <https://twitter.com/ICANNAtLarge>
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Another possibility is to keep the RALOs, so the concept of regional views is maintained, but make each of its participants individual members and remove the concept of unaffiliated. -ed On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 10:11 PM Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> wrote:
This is not a result of just our "rules", but is also a core principle from the ICANN Bylaws. I quote:
*The criteria and standards for the certification of At-Large Structures shall be established in such a way that participation by individual Internet users who are citizens or residents of countries within the Geographic Region of the RALO will predominate in the operation of each At-Large Structure within the RALO, while not necessarily excluding additional participation, compatible with the interests of the individual Internet users within the region, by others.*
I see two ways of "fixing" this. Both would require a Bylaw change (certainly possible).
1. Abolish RALOs and have all ALSes and unaffiliated members be one amorphous mass. This removes the need to identify an ALS with a specific RALO, since there are none.
2. Develop the concept of an ALS which crosses RALOs and thus does not belong to any of them.
If indeed we have a potential ALS that will really help At-Large, we don't want to lose them, but I have an aversion for doing things in violation of our own rules and the ICANN Bylaws.
Alan
At 17/09/2019 11:53 PM, Maureen Hilyard wrote:
Hi Olivier
Maybe the rules need changing. Just because a group has members from all over the world, why should we stop them from becoming members of At-Large.
The group currently had a leadership team whose members are all resident in the APRALO region. They are one of the few applications that I have seen that actually mentioned the DNS. As an ISOC chapter focusing on rural development, it probably has a majority of members from APRALO if all of its leadership team is from the same region.
Since our current rules only note the primary and secondary members of an ALS regardless of who is most active in our work in At-Large, when it comes to who the other members are, no-one really bothers to ask. I would hazard a guess that if we were to do an analysis (and were to be so picky) we would have several groups that have global members.
*If we get active participants out of this ALS* we should count ourselves lucky. That is the whole point of our ALS recruitment process. And as part of our Review we are finding that many of our processes need updating to keep up with the changing needs of the environments we are having to deal with.
EURALO itself has been faced with an anomaly which does not fit the rules, but we have found LACRALO to be very obliging to cater for it. And as we revise our ALS Criteria and Expectations we will have to include a new "rule" that allows for ALSes to participate in an event on a neighbouring country that "does not belong to the region in which they are situated". BIKLAB is now a precedent which will allow this to happen more within our system as long as there is agreement between the regions concerned.
APRALO has many small island countries in the Pacific that have been unable to participate in ICANN activities in their own right under our current rules because they are territories of big power countries (mainly in EURALO) who are given no support from their home region and would have no idea what EURALO was. Pacific countries are an anomaly because as all the 22 countries and territories of the Pacific are members of the Pacific Forum, they are therefore members of PICISOC, so in fact are members of an ALS already -- so we have international participants in our membership, even though they live in the Pacific.
Maureen
On Tue, 17 Sep 2019, 3:14 PM Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, <ocl@gih.com> wrote: Dear Maureen,
I am very surprised to see this having reached the ALAC with a recommendation from APRALO that this should be accepted. This should have been picked up at Due Diligence: Internet Society Special Interest Groups are global as per the explanation on https://www.internetsociety.org/sigs This countervenes ALAC rules which specify that ALSes must be geographical. See tinyurl.com/ALAC-RoP-AdjDoc4-2013-07
"2. Be organised so that participation by individual Internet users who are citizens or residents of countries within the Geographic Region in which the ALS is based will predominate in the ALS' operation. The ALS may permit additional participation by others that is compatible with the interests of the individual Internet users within the region."
The key words are "be organised" - and as much as I support the work of the Internet Society Rurel Special Interest Group, rural areas are not limited to Asia. Unless there is a commitment that this SIG will restrict the majority of its membership to come from the Asia region. The explicit response of the SIG in due diligence was "this is a global SIG".
I also have a concern that it would be possible to create one SIG after another in ISOC and the meaning of ALS no longer applies as you are effectively creating votes.
The question of "geographical" was asked on the APRALO mailing list as recently as 11 September 2019 ( https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/pipermail/apac-discuss/2019-September/004952... ) but I do not see any response to this.
Kindest regards,
Olivier
On 18/09/2019 01:58, ICANN At-Large Staff wrote:
Dear All,
The regional advice from APRALO regarding the ALS Application (307) Internet Society Rural Development Special Interest Group has been received.
The following question has been posed to the ALAC:
*****
Question: Does the ALAC wish to accredit the (307) Internet Society Rural Development Special Interest Group? The regional advice was to accept the application.
*****
Please note that this vote will close on Tuesday, 24 September 2019 23:59 UTC.
Kind Regards,
ICANN Policy Staff in support of the At-Large Community
Website: atlarge.icann.org
Facebook: facebook.com/icann <https://www.facebook.com/icannatlarge> atlarge <https://www.facebook.com/icannatlarge>
Twitter: @ <https://twitter.com/ICANNAtLarge> ICANNAtLarge <https://twitter.com/ICANNAtLarge>
_______________________________________________ ALAC-Announce mailing list
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https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac-announce
At-Large Official Site:http://www.atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
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-- *NOTICE:* This email may contain information which is confidential and/or subject to legal privilege, and is intended for the use of the named addressee only. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not use, disclose or copy any part of this email. If you have received this email by mistake, please notify the sender and delete this message immediately.
Interesting.. . On Thu, 19 Sep 2019, 6:00 AM Eduardo Diaz, <eduardodiazrivera@gmail.com> wrote:
Another possibility is to keep the RALOs, so the concept of regional views is maintained, but make each of its participants individual members and remove the concept of unaffiliated.
-ed
On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 10:11 PM Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> wrote:
This is not a result of just our "rules", but is also a core principle from the ICANN Bylaws. I quote:
*The criteria and standards for the certification of At-Large Structures shall be established in such a way that participation by individual Internet users who are citizens or residents of countries within the Geographic Region of the RALO will predominate in the operation of each At-Large Structure within the RALO, while not necessarily excluding additional participation, compatible with the interests of the individual Internet users within the region, by others.*
I see two ways of "fixing" this. Both would require a Bylaw change (certainly possible).
1. Abolish RALOs and have all ALSes and unaffiliated members be one amorphous mass. This removes the need to identify an ALS with a specific RALO, since there are none.
2. Develop the concept of an ALS which crosses RALOs and thus does not belong to any of them.
If indeed we have a potential ALS that will really help At-Large, we don't want to lose them, but I have an aversion for doing things in violation of our own rules and the ICANN Bylaws.
Alan
At 17/09/2019 11:53 PM, Maureen Hilyard wrote:
Hi Olivier
Maybe the rules need changing. Just because a group has members from all over the world, why should we stop them from becoming members of At-Large.
The group currently had a leadership team whose members are all resident in the APRALO region. They are one of the few applications that I have seen that actually mentioned the DNS. As an ISOC chapter focusing on rural development, it probably has a majority of members from APRALO if all of its leadership team is from the same region.
Since our current rules only note the primary and secondary members of an ALS regardless of who is most active in our work in At-Large, when it comes to who the other members are, no-one really bothers to ask. I would hazard a guess that if we were to do an analysis (and were to be so picky) we would have several groups that have global members.
*If we get active participants out of this ALS* we should count ourselves lucky. That is the whole point of our ALS recruitment process. And as part of our Review we are finding that many of our processes need updating to keep up with the changing needs of the environments we are having to deal with.
EURALO itself has been faced with an anomaly which does not fit the rules, but we have found LACRALO to be very obliging to cater for it. And as we revise our ALS Criteria and Expectations we will have to include a new "rule" that allows for ALSes to participate in an event on a neighbouring country that "does not belong to the region in which they are situated". BIKLAB is now a precedent which will allow this to happen more within our system as long as there is agreement between the regions concerned.
APRALO has many small island countries in the Pacific that have been unable to participate in ICANN activities in their own right under our current rules because they are territories of big power countries (mainly in EURALO) who are given no support from their home region and would have no idea what EURALO was. Pacific countries are an anomaly because as all the 22 countries and territories of the Pacific are members of the Pacific Forum, they are therefore members of PICISOC, so in fact are members of an ALS already -- so we have international participants in our membership, even though they live in the Pacific.
Maureen
On Tue, 17 Sep 2019, 3:14 PM Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, <ocl@gih.com> wrote: Dear Maureen,
I am very surprised to see this having reached the ALAC with a recommendation from APRALO that this should be accepted. This should have been picked up at Due Diligence: Internet Society Special Interest Groups are global as per the explanation on https://www.internetsociety.org/sigs This countervenes ALAC rules which specify that ALSes must be geographical. See tinyurl.com/ALAC-RoP-AdjDoc4-2013-07
"2. Be organised so that participation by individual Internet users who are citizens or residents of countries within the Geographic Region in which the ALS is based will predominate in the ALS' operation. The ALS may permit additional participation by others that is compatible with the interests of the individual Internet users within the region."
The key words are "be organised" - and as much as I support the work of the Internet Society Rurel Special Interest Group, rural areas are not limited to Asia. Unless there is a commitment that this SIG will restrict the majority of its membership to come from the Asia region. The explicit response of the SIG in due diligence was "this is a global SIG".
I also have a concern that it would be possible to create one SIG after another in ISOC and the meaning of ALS no longer applies as you are effectively creating votes.
The question of "geographical" was asked on the APRALO mailing list as recently as 11 September 2019 ( https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/pipermail/apac-discuss/2019-September/004952... ) but I do not see any response to this.
Kindest regards,
Olivier
On 18/09/2019 01:58, ICANN At-Large Staff wrote:
Dear All,
The regional advice from APRALO regarding the ALS Application (307) Internet Society Rural Development Special Interest Group has been received.
The following question has been posed to the ALAC:
*****
Question: Does the ALAC wish to accredit the (307) Internet Society Rural Development Special Interest Group? The regional advice was to accept the application.
*****
Please note that this vote will close on Tuesday, 24 September 2019 23:59 UTC.
Kind Regards,
ICANN Policy Staff in support of the At-Large Community
Website: atlarge.icann.org
Facebook: facebook.com/icann <https://www.facebook.com/icannatlarge> atlarge <https://www.facebook.com/icannatlarge>
Twitter: @ <https://twitter.com/ICANNAtLarge> ICANNAtLarge <https://twitter.com/ICANNAtLarge>
_______________________________________________ ALAC-Announce mailing list
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https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac-announce
At-Large Official Site:http://www.atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
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At-Large Online: http://www.atlarge.icann.org ALAC Working Wiki: https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALA...) _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
-- *NOTICE:* This email may contain information which is confidential and/or subject to legal privilege, and is intended for the use of the named addressee only. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not use, disclose or copy any part of this email. If you have received this email by mistake, please notify the sender and delete this message immediately.
participants (11)
-
Alan Greenberg -
Cheryl Langdon-Orr -
Dev Anand Teelucksingh -
Eduardo Diaz -
Glenn McKnight -
Holly Raiche -
Judith Hellerstein -
Kaili Kan -
Maureen Hilyard -
Seun Ojedeji -
Tijani BEN JEMAA