Re: [ALAC] [ALAC-ExCom] ALAC/At-Large Improvements Project -- important update
Carlton, On 11/10/2011 15:49, Carlton Samuels wrote :
As I have already stated, I cannot vote for any report that recommends "sanctions" on volunteers, even if they are yet to be determined. The state of mind that delivers this gem can only be repudiated for cause.
Take imaginary example candidate A, ALAC member, does not attend calls, does not attend meetings, or when he travels, uses their time outside of the ALAC room. A does not get involved in ALAC & other working groups. A is basically using their affiliation to ALAC as something that looks good on their CV. Admittedly, this is an extreme, but Carlton, at the moment, nothing can be done about that person, and that imaginary person is occupying a seat on the ALAC, one of the only 15 seats of people supposed to act in the best interests of the 2.1Bn Internet users out there. That person is failing those 2.1Bn people. That person is not accountable. Yes, that person is a volunteer, but when you volunteer for ALAC, you're not doing it as a piece of fun. There is a deep responsibility that goes along with that. There is accountability to users in the rest of the world. But in any case, this debate is premature. We're at an intermediate stage, with more than 50 recommendations in this report, some of which are completed, some of which need to be taken to the next stage. The debate on sanctions/no sanctions will happen later. (and in Dakar we have a session on metric which might touch on that... or we might have to wait until after Dakar. In any case, there will be plenty of times to debate this) Warmest regards, Olivier -- Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, PhD http://www.gih.com/ocl.html
On 12 October 2011 00:05, Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond wrote : Carlton, On 11/10/2011 15:49, Carlton Samuels wrote :
As I have already stated, I cannot vote for any report that recommends
"sanctions" on volunteers, even if they are yet to be determined. The
state of mind that delivers this gem can only be repudiated for cause.
Take imaginary example candidate A, ALAC member, does not attend calls, does not attend meetings, or when he travels, uses their time outside of the ALAC room. A does not get involved in ALAC & other working groups. A is basically using their affiliation to ALAC as something that looks good on their CV. Admittedly, this is an extreme, but Carlton, at the moment, nothing can be done about that person, and that imaginary person is occupying a seat on the ALAC, one of the only 15 seats of people supposed to act in the best interests of the 2.1Bn Internet users out there. That person is failing those 2.1Bn people. That person is not accountable. Yes, that person is a volunteer, but when you volunteer for ALAC, you're not doing it as a piece of fun. There is a deep responsibility that goes along with that. There is accountability to users in the rest of the world. You are absolutely right Olivier ---------------------------------------------------------- Tijani BEN JEMAA Executive Director Mediterranean Federation of Internet Associations Phone : + 216 70 825 231 Mobile : + 216 98 330 114 Fax : + 216 70 825 231 ----------------------------------------------------------
On 11 October 2011 19:04, Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond <ocl@gih.com> wrote:
Take imaginary example candidate A, ALAC member, does not attend calls, does not attend meetings, or when he travels, uses their time outside of the ALAC room. A does not get involved in ALAC & other working groups. A is basically using their affiliation to ALAC as something that looks good on their CV. Admittedly, this is an extreme, but Carlton, at the moment, nothing can be done about that person, and that imaginary person is occupying a seat on the ALAC, one of the only 15 seats of people supposed to act in the best interests of the 2.1Bn Internet users out there. That person is failing those 2.1Bn people. That person is not accountable.
I guess the big question -- at least MY big question -- is, accountable to who? If that person was sent by a RALO, the RALO should be able to handle this issue through a recall or other similar measure. If the person was appointed by the NomCom, the procedure is different but a mechanism is still required. By definition a NomCom ALAC appointee is not accountable to ALAC or the region, however it reflects badly on the NomCom and ICANN itself if non-performing ALAC members are chosen and allowed to under-serve for an entire two-year term. What bothers me the most is the prospect of ALAC passing judgment over its own members. If a RALO elects someone who reflects their viewpoint, and that viewpoint is that only a small number of issues matter, this is indeed the RALO's choice to make and ALAC has no right to engage in top-down second-guessing. Education and persuasion, certainly, but not sanctions. I fully agree on requesting that every RALO has some kind of recall mechanism for their elected officials -- not just ALAC members but also RALO chairs, secretariats and liaisons as applicable. Indeed I have long advocated this within my own RALO. I am also greatly in favour of staff's providing attendance and other performance metrics that allow a RALO to act appropriately on factual inputs. But I am very much against any scheme that has ALAC members being accountable to other ALAC members. It's bad enough that the ICANN Board has no legal, fiduciary duty to the public, but only to ICANN itself. Let's not justify, let alone propagate that mistake within our own bounds. But in any case, this debate is premature. We're at an intermediate
stage, with more than 50 recommendations in this report, some of which are completed, some of which need to be taken to the next stage. The debate on sanctions/no sanctions will happen later.
I don't think there's any problem with that. As I've mentioned, it's simply that the wording in the report right now could easily be interpreted by a casual reader to infer that we have already had the discussion, agreed on a regime of sanctions, and are simply discussing appropriate implementation going forward. WE know the debate is incomplete, but that is not what the report indicates. - Evan
Hi all, I share Evan's basic question: "accountable to who?" and subsequent considerations. And I would say: In a broader sense to the Internet users in general, in a causal sense to the regional community that selected them = the RALOs concerned by such an under-performing candidate should be "in charge" of any potential "sanction" mechanisms because the two *RALO selected* ALAC members are - first and foremost - accountable to their electorate. A defective performance of a regional representative / ALAC member affects performance and reputation of the particular region and cannot be in their interest = be tolerated over a certain span of time (except for serious circumstances such as sickness and the like). I understand Carlton's reservations against sanctions or punishments of volunteers but as soon as limited seats (15 or 2 per region) and financial (travel etc.) resources are associated with a volunteer's engagement, the mandated person and his community have a special responsibility and accountability towards ALAC and ICANN. Otherwise, we cannot fulfill our role and commitments - what we stand for - diligently representing the users at ICANN. The key deliberation must be: The standards and professionalism we expect and demand from others, we must fulfill ourselves at first hand (typical trap of credibility ;-). Best, Wolf Evan Leibovitch wrote Tue, 11 Oct 2011 19:39:
On 11 October 2011 19:04, Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond <ocl@gih.com> wrote:
Take imaginary example candidate A, ALAC member, does not attend calls, does not attend meetings, or when he travels, uses their time outside of the ALAC room. A does not get involved in ALAC & other working groups. A is basically using their affiliation to ALAC as something that looks good on their CV. Admittedly, this is an extreme, but Carlton, at the moment, nothing can be done about that person, and that imaginary person is occupying a seat on the ALAC, one of the only 15 seats of people supposed to act in the best interests of the 2.1Bn Internet users out there. That person is failing those 2.1Bn people. That person is not accountable.
I guess the big question -- at least MY big question -- is, accountable to who?
If that person was sent by a RALO, the RALO should be able to handle this issue through a recall or other similar measure.
If the person was appointed by the NomCom, the procedure is different but a mechanism is still required. By definition a NomCom ALAC appointee is not accountable to ALAC or the region, however it reflects badly on the NomCom and ICANN itself if non-performing ALAC members are chosen and allowed to under-serve for an entire two-year term.
What bothers me the most is the prospect of ALAC passing judgment over its own members. If a RALO elects someone who reflects their viewpoint, and that viewpoint is that only a small number of issues matter, this is indeed the RALO's choice to make and ALAC has no right to engage in top-down second-guessing. Education and persuasion, certainly, but not sanctions.
I fully agree on requesting that every RALO has some kind of recall mechanism for their elected officials -- not just ALAC members but also RALO chairs, secretariats and liaisons as applicable. Indeed I have long advocated this within my own RALO. I am also greatly in favour of staff's providing attendance and other performance metrics that allow a RALO to act appropriately on factual inputs. But I am very much against any scheme that has ALAC members being accountable to other ALAC members.
It's bad enough that the ICANN Board has no legal, fiduciary duty to the public, but only to ICANN itself. Let's not justify, let alone propagate that mistake within our own bounds.
But in any case, this debate is premature. We're at an intermediate
stage, with more than 50 recommendations in this report, some of which are completed, some of which need to be taken to the next stage. The debate on sanctions/no sanctions will happen later.
I don't think there's any problem with that. As I've mentioned, it's simply that the wording in the report right now could easily be interpreted by a casual reader to infer that we have already had the discussion, agreed on a regime of sanctions, and are simply discussing appropriate implementation going forward. WE know the debate is incomplete, but that is not what the report indicates.
- Evan _______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac
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I agree with Wolf. ---------------------------------------------------------- Tijani BEN JEMAA Executive Director Mediterranean Federation of Internet Associations Phone : + 216 70 825 231 Mobile : + 216 98 330 114 Fax : + 216 70 825 231 ---------------------------------------------------------- -----Message d'origine----- De : alac-excom-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:alac-excom-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] De la part de Wolf Ludwig Envoyé : mercredi 12 octobre 2011 16:57 À : Evan Leibovitch; Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond Cc : lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org; ALAC EXCOM; At-Large Worldwide Objet : Re: [ALAC-ExCom] [ALAC] ALAC/At-Large Improvements Project -- important update Hi all, I share Evan's basic question: "accountable to who?" and subsequent considerations. And I would say: In a broader sense to the Internet users in general, in a causal sense to the regional community that selected them = the RALOs concerned by such an under-performing candidate should be "in charge" of any potential "sanction" mechanisms because the two *RALO selected* ALAC members are - first and foremost - accountable to their electorate. A defective performance of a regional representative / ALAC member affects performance and reputation of the particular region and cannot be in their interest = be tolerated over a certain span of time (except for serious circumstances such as sickness and the like). I understand Carlton's reservations against sanctions or punishments of volunteers but as soon as limited seats (15 or 2 per region) and financial (travel etc.) resources are associated with a volunteer's engagement, the mandated person and his community have a special responsibility and accountability towards ALAC and ICANN. Otherwise, we cannot fulfill our role and commitments - what we stand for - diligently representing the users at ICANN. The key deliberation must be: The standards and professionalism we expect and demand from others, we must fulfill ourselves at first hand (typical trap of credibility ;-). Best, Wolf Evan Leibovitch wrote Tue, 11 Oct 2011 19:39:
On 11 October 2011 19:04, Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond <ocl@gih.com> wrote:
Take imaginary example candidate A, ALAC member, does not attend calls, does not attend meetings, or when he travels, uses their time outside of the ALAC room. A does not get involved in ALAC & other working groups. A is basically using their affiliation to ALAC as something that looks good on their CV. Admittedly, this is an extreme, but Carlton, at the moment, nothing can be done about that person, and that imaginary person is occupying a seat on the ALAC, one of the only 15 seats of people supposed to act in the best interests of the 2.1Bn Internet users out there. That person is failing those 2.1Bn people. That person is not accountable.
I guess the big question -- at least MY big question -- is, accountable to who?
If that person was sent by a RALO, the RALO should be able to handle this issue through a recall or other similar measure.
If the person was appointed by the NomCom, the procedure is different but a mechanism is still required. By definition a NomCom ALAC appointee is not accountable to ALAC or the region, however it reflects badly on the NomCom and ICANN itself if non-performing ALAC members are chosen and allowed to under-serve for an entire two-year term.
What bothers me the most is the prospect of ALAC passing judgment over its own members. If a RALO elects someone who reflects their viewpoint, and that viewpoint is that only a small number of issues matter, this is indeed the RALO's choice to make and ALAC has no right to engage in top-down second-guessing. Education and persuasion, certainly, but not sanctions.
I fully agree on requesting that every RALO has some kind of recall mechanism for their elected officials -- not just ALAC members but also RALO chairs, secretariats and liaisons as applicable. Indeed I have long advocated this within my own RALO. I am also greatly in favour of staff's providing attendance and other performance metrics that allow a RALO to act appropriately on factual inputs. But I am very much against any scheme that has ALAC members being accountable to other ALAC members.
It's bad enough that the ICANN Board has no legal, fiduciary duty to the public, but only to ICANN itself. Let's not justify, let alone propagate that mistake within our own bounds.
But in any case, this debate is premature. We're at an intermediate
stage, with more than 50 recommendations in this report, some of which are completed, some of which need to be taken to the next stage. The debate on sanctions/no sanctions will happen later.
I don't think there's any problem with that. As I've mentioned, it's simply that the wording in the report right now could easily be interpreted by a casual reader to infer that we have already had the discussion, agreed on a regime of sanctions, and are simply discussing appropriate implementation going forward. WE know the debate is incomplete, but that is not what the report indicates.
- Evan _______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac
At-Large Online: http://www.atlarge.icann.org ALAC Working Wiki: https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee +(ALAC)
EuroDIG Secretariat http://www.eurodig.org/ mobile +41 79 204 83 87 Skype: Wolf-Ludwig EURALO - ICANN's Regional At-Large Organisation http://euralo.org Profile on LinkedIn http://ch.linkedin.com/in/wolfludwig _______________________________________________ ALAC-ExCom mailing list ALAC-ExCom@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac-excom ----- Aucun virus trouvé dans ce message. Analyse effectuée par AVG - www.avg.fr Version: 10.0.1390 / Base de données virale: 1518/3785 - Date: 24/07/2011 La Base de données des virus a expiré.
On 12 Oct 2011, at 01:04, Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond wrote:
Yes, that person is a volunteer, but when you volunteer for ALAC, you're not doing it as a piece of fun. There is a deep responsibility that goes along with that. There is accountability to users in the rest of the world.
At the same time, the ALAC needs to be crystal clear about what is expected from a volunteer, especially the amount of time requested. As a volunteer, you can be expected to use a large part of your free time to serve on ALAC, committees, working groups, etc. You should not be expected to work for the ALAC in lieu of your main job, although some people might have more flexibly than others. While this is somewhat clear for the main ALAC task,it is less so for working groups, especially when they involve other SOs and ACs. One of the "ALAC improvements" I would like to see is that any call for volunteers should include a detailed description of the expected investment in resources, including details on teleconference schedules, etc. It is one thing to pressure an individual to be part of a working group, because "that is expected from a volunteer". If we find out later that he/she is effectively unable to participate because of time constraints or overload, there is no gain for anyone. Patrick Vande Walle
I fully support Patrick's remarks on expectations from volunteers based on clear indications about time and other capacities or resources needed to assume particular functions. Otherwise, misunderstandings are unavoidable. Best, Wolf Patrick Vande Walle wrote Wed, 12 Oct 2011 12:42:
On 12 Oct 2011, at 01:04, Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond wrote:
Yes, that person is a volunteer, but when you volunteer for ALAC, you're not doing it as a piece of fun. There is a deep responsibility that goes along with that. There is accountability to users in the rest of the world.
At the same time, the ALAC needs to be crystal clear about what is expected from a volunteer, especially the amount of time requested. As a volunteer, you can be expected to use a large part of your free time to serve on ALAC, committees, working groups, etc. You should not be expected to work for the ALAC in lieu of your main job, although some people might have more flexibly than others.
While this is somewhat clear for the main ALAC task,it is less so for working groups, especially when they involve other SOs and ACs. One of the "ALAC improvements" I would like to see is that any call for volunteers should include a detailed description of the expected investment in resources, including details on teleconference schedules, etc. It is one thing to pressure an individual to be part of a working group, because "that is expected from a volunteer". If we find out later that he/she is effectively unable to participate because of time constraints or overload, there is no gain for anyone.
Patrick Vande Walle
_______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac
At-Large Online: http://www.atlarge.icann.org ALAC Working Wiki: https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALA...)
EuroDIG Secretariat http://www.eurodig.org/ mobile +41 79 204 83 87 Skype: Wolf-Ludwig EURALO - ICANN's Regional At-Large Organisation http://euralo.org Profile on LinkedIn http://ch.linkedin.com/in/wolfludwig
+1 ---------------------------------------------------------- Tijani BEN JEMAA Executive Director Mediterranean Federation of Internet Associations Phone : + 216 70 825 231 Mobile : + 216 98 330 114 Fax : + 216 70 825 231 ---------------------------------------------------------- -----Message d'origine----- De : alac-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:alac-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] De la part de Wolf Ludwig Envoyé : mercredi 12 octobre 2011 14:44 À : Patrick Vande Walle; Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond Cc : Carlton A. Samuels; ALAC EXCOM; At-Large Worldwide Objet : Re: [ALAC] [ALAC-ExCom] ALAC/At-Large Improvements Project -- important update I fully support Patrick's remarks on expectations from volunteers based on clear indications about time and other capacities or resources needed to assume particular functions. Otherwise, misunderstandings are unavoidable. Best, Wolf Patrick Vande Walle wrote Wed, 12 Oct 2011 12:42:
On 12 Oct 2011, at 01:04, Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond wrote:
Yes, that person is a volunteer, but when you volunteer for ALAC, you're not doing it as a piece of fun. There is a deep responsibility that goes along with that. There is accountability to users in the rest
of the world.
At the same time, the ALAC needs to be crystal clear about what is expected
from a volunteer, especially the amount of time requested. As a volunteer, you can be expected to use a large part of your free time to serve on ALAC, committees, working groups, etc. You should not be expected to work for the ALAC in lieu of your main job, although some people might have more flexibly than others.
While this is somewhat clear for the main ALAC task,it is less so for
working groups, especially when they involve other SOs and ACs.
One of the "ALAC improvements" I would like to see is that any call for volunteers should include a detailed description of the expected investment in resources, including details on teleconference schedules, etc. It is one thing to pressure an individual to be part of a working group, because "that is expected from a volunteer". If we find out later that he/she is effectively unable to participate because of time constraints or overload, there is no gain for anyone.
Patrick Vande Walle
_______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac
At-Large Online: http://www.atlarge.icann.org ALAC Working Wiki: https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee +(ALAC)
EuroDIG Secretariat http://www.eurodig.org/ mobile +41 79 204 83 87 Skype: Wolf-Ludwig EURALO - ICANN's Regional At-Large Organisation http://euralo.org Profile on LinkedIn http://ch.linkedin.com/in/wolfludwig _______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac At-Large Online: http://www.atlarge.icann.org ALAC Working Wiki: https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALA C) ----- Aucun virus trouvé dans ce message. Analyse effectuée par AVG - www.avg.fr Version: 10.0.1390 / Base de données virale: 1518/3785 - Date: 24/07/2011 La Base de données des virus a expiré.
Good point Patrick!. I agree with what you say, I understand that this sense is where we must walk, but without losing the point of view presented by Carlton. This may be the right way, but that much to have a more inclusive ALAC cultural diversity. Part of that is the problem. Kind Regards *Sergio Salinas Porto Presidente Internauta Argentina Asociación Argentina de Usuarios de Internet <http://www.internauta.org.ar>FLUI- Federación Latinoamericana de Usuarios de Internet <http://www.fuilain.org>ICANN/LACRALO - ALAC Member facebook:salinasporto twitter:sergiosalinas MSN/MSN YAHOO/Talk: salinasporto... Skype:internautaargentina Mobi:+54 9 223 5 215819 * * "Ojalá podamos ser desobedientes, cada vez que recibimos órdenes que humillan nuestra conciencia o violan nuestro sentido común" -Eduardo Galeano- * El 12/10/2011 07:42 a.m., Patrick Vande Walle escribió:
On 12 Oct 2011, at 01:04, Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond wrote:
Yes, that person is a volunteer, but when you volunteer for ALAC, you're not doing it as a piece of fun. There is a deep responsibility that goes along with that. There is accountability to users in the rest of the world. At the same time, the ALAC needs to be crystal clear about what is expected from a volunteer, especially the amount of time requested. As a volunteer, you can be expected to use a large part of your free time to serve on ALAC, committees, working groups, etc. You should not be expected to work for the ALAC in lieu of your main job, although some people might have more flexibly than others.
While this is somewhat clear for the main ALAC task,it is less so for working groups, especially when they involve other SOs and ACs. One of the "ALAC improvements" I would like to see is that any call for volunteers should include a detailed description of the expected investment in resources, including details on teleconference schedules, etc. It is one thing to pressure an individual to be part of a working group, because "that is expected from a volunteer". If we find out later that he/she is effectively unable to participate because of time constraints or overload, there is no gain for anyone.
Patrick Vande Walle
_______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac
At-Large Online: http://www.atlarge.icann.org ALAC Working Wiki: https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALA...)
On 12 October 2011 06:42, Patrick Vande Walle <patrick@vande-walle.eu>wrote:
At the same time, the ALAC needs to be crystal clear about what is expected from a volunteer, especially the amount of time requested. As a volunteer, you can be expected to use a large part of your free time to serve on ALAC, committees, working groups, etc. You should not be expected to work for the ALAC in lieu of your main job, although some people might have more flexibly than others.
Asked and answered. In the ALAC Improvements work here under discussion, in the Report on page 9 and immediately above the 'offensive' item on ALAC member sanctions is an action item from WT B that calls for the creation of accurate and honest job descriptions. - Evan
participants (6)
-
Evan Leibovitch -
Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond -
Patrick Vande Walle -
presidencia Internauta Argentina -
tijani.benjemaa＠fmai.org -
Wolf Ludwig