Re: [ALAC] [At-Large] ICANN Launches Accountability Structures Expert Panel, Seeks Community Input
Evan. You are correct about the level of skills, talents that are already within ICANN itself. However for the purposes of having a review, kind of like an "auditing", there is always the option to conduct "internal audits" and "ex internal audits". Whilst having a review done "Inhouse" has its uses, for a body that facilitates objectives pertaining to the key internet policy spaces where the world is the "beneficiary", it follows that there is a need for a review to be carried out "externally". The Accountability and Structure Review process is a critical aspect of evaluating and assessing ICANN's operations so that much like having a mirror, it can work towards constant improvements, development and growth. If the pool of Experts conducting the review were sourced from inside, there is a far greater likelihood that due to "friendships, networks, shared interests etc" that the Report could be "biased". In a global policy environment, structures, processes have far greater legal, equitable, socio-cultural, economic, political impact on the quality of policies that are produced. This no doubt includes substantive technical input, enabling mechanisms to continually allow for diversity into the policy spaces etc. The Affirmation of Commitments and Bylaws recognise this. The issue is not about ICANN trusting its community because it already does through the enormous work in various Supporting organisations, advisory committees, working groups, task forces, cross constituency groups etc. The integrity of the evaluation lies in the ability to minimise risks of apprehension of bias, reasonable bias, bias etc. Kind Regards, Sala On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 5:55 AM, Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch < apisan@unam.mx> wrote:
Evan,
I'll take the daring step of disagreeing with you. Calling on external experts for the Accountability Structures panel is consistent with an institutional design that moves away from the potential for capture, shop blindness, inbreeding, and other ills that can arise from the lack of independent analysis. Since the 2003 reform we started to make sure opportunities for reasonable challenge and redress of decisions be part of the design, while avoiding in turn the capture of those processes by the politics of delay and by parties which are not committed to the result yet may slow it eternally or distort it seriously.
At the same time I will state that I am unhappy, as others have already stated, with the specific integration of the panel. Yet we have ourselves to blame as much as any other if this integration is the result of some horse-trading. If it is the case, it shows that we have not been able to get rid of *that* scourge fast enough.
Alejandro Pisanty
! !! !!! !!!! NEW PHONE NUMBER - NUEVO NÚMERO DE TELÉFONO
+52-1-5541444475 FROM ABROAD
+525541444475 DESDE MÉXICO
SMS +525541444475 Dr. Alejandro Pisanty UNAM, Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico
Blog: http://pisanty.blogspot.com LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn, http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614 Twitter: http://twitter.com/apisanty ---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, http://www.isoc.org . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
________________________________________ Desde: at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [ at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] en nombre de Evan Leibovitch [ evan@telly.org] Enviado el: martes, 18 de septiembre de 2012 12:09 Hasta: Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro CC: JJS; ALAC Working List; At-Large Worldwide Asunto: Re: [At-Large] [ALAC] ICANN Launches Accountability Structures Expert Panel, Seeks Community Input
Personally, I am amazed that ICANN feels the need to go "external" when it has such a massive pool of diverse, experienced expertise within its community.
Historically, the use by ICANN of outside "expertise" has appeared to me to be an indication that the organization does not trust its own community perform such an evaluation. It's more evidence that ICANN as a body fears its volunteers rather than exploits their perspectives. I am much more in favour of having outside resources available to a community review, than to put leadership of this effort in the hands of people without diverse backgrounds or experience in ICANN culture.
- Evan
On 18 September 2012 05:40, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro < salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks Jean-Jacques,
Thank you for your email and analysis. I fully agree with the wisdom of your counsel and the analysis, rationale behind the call for the ALAC to make a Statement in this regard.
Kind Regards, Sala
On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 9:31 PM, JJS <jjs.global@gmail.com> wrote:
*Alan, Salanieta, All,* * * *sorry, you received 2 emails from me on the same subject. The first one, incomplete, was sent by mistake, so please read the second.* * * *Jean-Jacques. * 2012/9/18 Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro < salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro@gmail.com>
On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 9:00 PM, JJS <jjs.global@gmail.com> wrote:
*Hello Alan,* * * *thank you for forwarding this information. Prior to making any individual comment on an open ICANN online space, I wish to submit that:* *- this issue may deserve an ALAC reaction as such,* *- at the very least, the ALAC should underline that* * - the panel lacks gender and cultural diversity (3 White males,
even
if one of them hails from South Africa)* * - all 3 come from the same mold (common law, corporate affairs, English)* * - our observations are not aimed at the individuals, or their personal
value, but at principles enshrined in the By-laws, recommended in the "Improving Institutional Confidence" document of the (now
I agree!
* 2012/9/14 Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca>
<
http://www.icann.org/en/news/announcements/announcement-11sep12-en.htm
http://www.icann.org/en/news/announcements/announcement-11sep12-en.htm
ICANN Launches Accountability Structures Expert Panel, Seeks
Community
Input
11 September 2012
In fulfillment of ATRT Recommendations 23 and 25, calling for a review of ICANN's Accountability Structures, ICANN has identified an international panel of experts to serve on the Accountability Structures Expert Panel (ASEP). Biographies of the experts are available at <http://www.icann.org/en/news/in-focus/accountability/asep> http://www.icann.org/en/news/in-focus/accountability/asep.
The ASEP is interested in hearing from the ICANN community regarding your thoughts on ICANN's accountability structures, particularly the Reconsideration process and the Independent Review process, and whether they can or should be modified. Your comments and inputs can be submitted to <mailto:ASEP@ICANN.org>ASEP@ICANN.org and comments can be viewed at <http://forum.icann.org/lists/asep/> http://forum.icann.org/lists/asep/ . Please provide your input by 1 October 2012.
The ASEP will be posting updates regarding its work, with a detailed project plan expected by mid-September. All information regarding the ASEP will be accessible from the ASEP page at <http://www.icann.org/en/news/in-focus/accountability/asep> http://www.icann.org/en/news/in-focus/accountability/asep. _______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac
At-Large Online: http://www.atlarge.icann.org ALAC Working Wiki:
https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALA...)
_______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac
At-Large Online: http://www.atlarge.icann.org ALAC Working Wiki:
https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALA...)
-- Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala P.O. Box 17862 Suva Fiji
Twitter: @SalanietaT Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
-- Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala P.O. Box 17862 Suva Fiji
Twitter: @SalanietaT Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851 _______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac
At-Large Online: http://www.atlarge.icann.org ALAC Working Wiki:
https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALA...)
-- Evan Leibovitch Toronto Canada
Em: evan at telly dot org Sk: evanleibovitch Tw: el56 _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org
-- Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala P.O. Box 17862 Suva Fiji Twitter: @SalanietaT Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
Snip Sala
This no doubt includes substantive technical input, enabling mechanisms to continually allow for diversity into the policy spaces etc. The Affirmation of Commitments and Bylaws recognise this.
To add, see Article IV section 1 of the Bylaws mandates an Independent Review
ARTICLE IV: ACCOUNTABILITY AND REVIEW *Section 1. PURPOSE* In carrying out its mission as set out in these Bylaws, ICANN should be accountable to the community for operating in a manner that is consistent with these Bylaws, and with due regard for the core values set forth inArticle I of these Bylaws <http://www.icann.org/en/about/governance/bylaws#I>. The provisions of this Article, creating processes for reconsideration and independent review of ICANN actions and periodic review of ICANN's structure and procedures, are intended to reinforce the various accountability mechanisms otherwise set forth in these Bylaws, including the transparency provisions ofArticle III<http://www.icann.org/en/about/governance/bylaws#III> and the Board and other selection mechanisms set forth throughout these Bylaws.
Hi, I did not see the original message from Alexandro until it was quoted here by Sala. Both your replies are very reasonable and well stated. The issue of capture is especially important. Consider my mind changed on the issue. - Evan On 18 September 2012 14:55, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro < salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro@gmail.com> wrote:
Evan.
You are correct about the level of skills, talents that are already within ICANN itself. However for the purposes of having a review, kind of like an "auditing", there is always the option to conduct "internal audits" and "ex internal audits".
Whilst having a review done "Inhouse" has its uses, for a body that facilitates objectives pertaining to the key internet policy spaces where the world is the "beneficiary", it follows that there is a need for a review to be carried out "externally".
The Accountability and Structure Review process is a critical aspect of evaluating and assessing ICANN's operations so that much like having a mirror, it can work towards constant improvements, development and growth. If the pool of Experts conducting the review were sourced from inside, there is a far greater likelihood that due to "friendships, networks, shared interests etc" that the Report could be "biased". In a global policy environment, structures, processes have far greater legal, equitable, socio-cultural, economic, political impact on the quality of policies that are produced.
This no doubt includes substantive technical input, enabling mechanisms to continually allow for diversity into the policy spaces etc. The Affirmation of Commitments and Bylaws recognise this.
The issue is not about ICANN trusting its community because it already does through the enormous work in various Supporting organisations, advisory committees, working groups, task forces, cross constituency groups etc. The integrity of the evaluation lies in the ability to minimise risks of apprehension of bias, reasonable bias, bias etc.
Kind Regards, Sala
On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 5:55 AM, Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch < apisan@unam.mx> wrote:
Evan,
I'll take the daring step of disagreeing with you. Calling on external experts for the Accountability Structures panel is consistent with an institutional design that moves away from the potential for capture, shop blindness, inbreeding, and other ills that can arise from the lack of independent analysis. Since the 2003 reform we started to make sure opportunities for reasonable challenge and redress of decisions be part of the design, while avoiding in turn the capture of those processes by the politics of delay and by parties which are not committed to the result yet may slow it eternally or distort it seriously.
At the same time I will state that I am unhappy, as others have already stated, with the specific integration of the panel. Yet we have ourselves to blame as much as any other if this integration is the result of some horse-trading. If it is the case, it shows that we have not been able to get rid of *that* scourge fast enough.
Alejandro Pisanty
! !! !!! !!!! NEW PHONE NUMBER - NUEVO NÚMERO DE TELÉFONO
+52-1-5541444475 FROM ABROAD
+525541444475 DESDE MÉXICO
SMS +525541444475 Dr. Alejandro Pisanty UNAM, Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico
Blog: http://pisanty.blogspot.com LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn, http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614 Twitter: http://twitter.com/apisanty ---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, http://www.isoc.org . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
________________________________________ Desde: at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [ at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] en nombre de Evan Leibovitch [ evan@telly.org] Enviado el: martes, 18 de septiembre de 2012 12:09 Hasta: Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro CC: JJS; ALAC Working List; At-Large Worldwide Asunto: Re: [At-Large] [ALAC] ICANN Launches Accountability Structures Expert Panel, Seeks Community Input
Personally, I am amazed that ICANN feels the need to go "external" when it has such a massive pool of diverse, experienced expertise within its community.
Historically, the use by ICANN of outside "expertise" has appeared to me to be an indication that the organization does not trust its own community perform such an evaluation. It's more evidence that ICANN as a body fears its volunteers rather than exploits their perspectives. I am much more in favour of having outside resources available to a community review, than to put leadership of this effort in the hands of people without diverse backgrounds or experience in ICANN culture.
- Evan
On 18 September 2012 05:40, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro < salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks Jean-Jacques,
Thank you for your email and analysis. I fully agree with the wisdom of your counsel and the analysis, rationale behind the call for the ALAC to make a Statement in this regard.
Kind Regards, Sala
On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 9:31 PM, JJS <jjs.global@gmail.com> wrote:
*Alan, Salanieta, All,* * * *sorry, you received 2 emails from me on the same subject. The first one, incomplete, was sent by mistake, so please read the second.* * * *Jean-Jacques. * 2012/9/18 Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro < salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro@gmail.com>
On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 9:00 PM, JJS <jjs.global@gmail.com> wrote:
*Hello Alan,* * * *thank you for forwarding this information. Prior to making any individual comment on an open ICANN online space, I wish to submit that:* *- this issue may deserve an ALAC reaction as such,* *- at the very least, the ALAC should underline that* * - the panel lacks gender and cultural diversity (3 White
males, even
if one of them hails from South Africa)* * - all 3 come from the same mold (common law, corporate affairs, English)* * - our observations are not aimed at the individuals, or their personal
value, but at principles enshrined in the By-laws, recommended in the "Improving Institutional Confidence" document of the (now
I agree!
* 2012/9/14 Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca>
> <
http://www.icann.org/en/news/announcements/announcement-11sep12-en.htm
> http://www.icann.org/en/news/announcements/announcement-11sep12-en.htm > > > ICANN Launches Accountability Structures Expert Panel, Seeks Community > Input > > 11 September 2012 > > In fulfillment of ATRT Recommendations 23 and 25, calling for a > review of ICANN's Accountability Structures, ICANN has identified an > international panel of experts to serve on the Accountability > Structures Expert Panel (ASEP). Biographies of the experts are > available at > <http://www.icann.org/en/news/in-focus/accountability/asep> > http://www.icann.org/en/news/in-focus/accountability/asep. > > The ASEP is interested in hearing from the ICANN community regarding > your thoughts on ICANN's accountability structures, particularly the > Reconsideration process and the Independent Review process, and > whether they can or should be modified. Your comments and inputs can > be submitted to <mailto:ASEP@ICANN.org>ASEP@ICANN.org and comments > can be viewed at > <http://forum.icann.org/lists/asep/> http://forum.icann.org/lists/asep/ . > Please provide your input by 1 October 2012. > > The ASEP will be posting updates regarding its work, with a detailed > project plan expected by mid-September. All information regarding the > ASEP will be accessible from the ASEP page at > <http://www.icann.org/en/news/in-focus/accountability/asep> > http://www.icann.org/en/news/in-focus/accountability/asep. > _______________________________________________ > ALAC mailing list > ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org > https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac > > At-Large Online: http://www.atlarge.icann.org > ALAC Working Wiki: >
https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALA...)
> _______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac
At-Large Online: http://www.atlarge.icann.org ALAC Working Wiki:
https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALA...)
-- Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala P.O. Box 17862 Suva Fiji
Twitter: @SalanietaT Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
-- Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala P.O. Box 17862 Suva Fiji
Twitter: @SalanietaT Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851 _______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac
At-Large Online: http://www.atlarge.icann.org ALAC Working Wiki:
https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALA...)
-- Evan Leibovitch Toronto Canada
Em: evan at telly dot org Sk: evanleibovitch Tw: el56 _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org
-- Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala P.O. Box 17862 Suva Fiji
Twitter: @SalanietaT Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851 _______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac
At-Large Online: http://www.atlarge.icann.org ALAC Working Wiki: https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALA...)
-- Evan Leibovitch Toronto Canada Em: evan at telly dot org Sk: evanleibovitch Tw: el56
On 18 September 2012 17:41, Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org> wrote:
Sorry for the name misselling, Alejandro. I'll be more vigilant.
And next time I'll also try not to misspell the word "misspell". (facepalm) - Evan
participants (2)
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Evan Leibovitch -
Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro