Jeffrey, Darlene and all:

I was trying to stay out of this conversation but It´s impossible fot my at this time. When Darlene says: "have heard many a comment on this", I was making some comments about danny, but not for him being unpolite.

Mi point has nothing to do with politeness, gender, or nationality. There is something more important to discuss.

The main issue who bothers Darlene, me and many other members (recent as us or not) is the whole concept that Danny express. I don´t know him personally (I only had the chance to attend to 1 meeting) and I really don´t know anything about his contributions to Icann´s world. He must be a commited person, for sure.

But there are many aspects that he is really far away to understand. ICANN all and the Board specially gives importance to Internet Users Imput and Participation. He agrees with this, as an individual user and that´s the reason for being so commited with At Large.

But it´s impossible for him to get the principal matters about the way of participating. ICANN needs a particular sort of imput, the one provided by a particular kind of entities. It´s impossible for a billon of users worldwide to get involved in At Large. The ALS are kind of repressentatives of those individual users. There is a special profile of ORGANIZATIONS where the Board and ICANN bylaws are looking for the imput. These organizations are the ones who can be familiar to the ideas of Outreach, Capacity Building, etc. Not every individual user is capable of provide opinions, discuss and work with "group desition making" or "participate leadership".

Those are the reasons that justify the requirement of being an organization to be an ALS. ALS make (or should) a repressentative imput when they discuss in At Large. The opinions of every delegate are not his personal ideas, only, but also a result of an internal discussion. This is the first fase of Bottom Up Consensus.

Danny Younger may be a really qualified and commited user, but he can´t provide himself the class of imput that ICANN needs from internet users. Not even 100 of Danny´s would´n be able to provide that. Global representation, different points of views are also required. To get this kind of imput is also really hard to do.

Members of ALS are not (mostly) english speakers. For them (us) is harder to find out things in other language (even for those who are fluent), read tons of mails a day and catch up with the process, and answer quickly (for me, also, if I have to write this mail in spanish, I would ended faster).

Members of ALS not only have to write and post our personal opinions in every issue (as Danny does), but we also have to discuss, educate, agree with the other members of our organizations. This is not an easy way to create opinions. But, for me (and for ICANN´s community) that kind of results are more valuable.

Members of ALS are not (mostly) from North America. This means that it´s harder to understand the whole idea that repressents this space of participation, and specially to trust in it, and get commited with an organization which exists based in a MOU with US Government. Danny never is going to believe how hard is to explain an individual user that participating in ICANN is a way of making a better internet for everyone (registrars included), which is my opinion, if you have to destroy the pre-judgement (in many moments) that we probable are being a tool to benefit the imperial american interests.

When you have hundreds of reppresentatives, you have to build alliances, to trust, to argue, and to work together. One, ocasional, face to face meeting is really important for that.

I can still making points the whole night...

ALS´s imput is hard to get (Harder than Danny is able to imagine). All valuable things are. The Board and ICANN are aware of this fact and also know that is useful for them to get it.

The new concept of At Large, in a year of existence, has developed many changes. 100 "uneducated" ALS, 10 real representatives in ALAC and 1 new (brillant) liason attracted the Board´s attention as never before. A change is coming, ICANN community is waiting for it and thinks it´s worth to spend a little part of ICANNs budget (still an enormous amount) in it. But not everyone is capable enough to undestand this.

This is only the very beggening. Let´s make it happen.

Andres (from the undeveloped Argentina, the south-end of the globe)

Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 23:24:22 -0800
From: jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com
To: DThompson@GOV.NU.CA
CC: info@ipconstituency.org; alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org; aheineman@ntia.doc.gov
Subject: Re: [At-Large] Resolution of the Board of Directors relatedtotheproposed Summit

Darlene and all, Although I can appriciate a womans point of view very well, using
emotive terms towards any Man stating anyting in a harsh manner,
which I am well known for myself, in no way diminishes and in fact
emphisizes his, or in some instances HER, point. This was indeed
my point in my earlier response, and remains so. Ergo you did make
your response one of a more personal nature accordingly, where
Danny did not, especially not in a sexist manner. I would prefer,
and strongly request, that sexist remarks or overtones be left out
of any expression on any ICANN related issue if you don't mind...
I too have also strongly disagreed with Danny on a number of
issues, and still do as do most of our members which are about
an even split of women vs men, BTW. Certainly women have
a different view towards most issues, which is both expected and
not at all at least unusual. That is as it may or should be, depending.
And again, polite expression is usually preferable, but is not always
adaquate in expressing the strength and varasity of expression, which is
why multipul means of expression exist in most languages and nationalities
that I am aware of. So as to being harsh as contributing in a negitive
way to any discussion on any issue is pure nonsense. And even worse
than nonsense if felt or considered and than not expressed in such
a manner!
To conclude, I thought that Dannys expressed thoughts were spot
on and properly expressed, this time. Maybe not next time?
Regards,
Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 277k members/stakeholders strong!)
"Obedience of the law is the greatest freedom" -
Abraham Lincoln
"Credit should go with the performance of duty and not with what is
very often the accident of glory" - Theodore Roosevelt
"If the probability be called P; the injury, L; and the burden, B;
liability depends upon whether B is less than L multiplied by
P: i.e., whether B is less than PL."
United States v. Carroll Towing (159 F.2d 169 [2d Cir. 1947]
===============================================================
Updated 1/26/04
CSO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security IDNS.
div. of Information Network Eng. INEG. INC.
ABA member in good standing member ID 01257402 E-Mail
jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com
My Phone: 214-244-4827
"Thompson, Darlene" wrote:
Jeffrey,

That statement was not aimed at Danny in any kind of a way personally but expresses the views of many in the rest of the world about NA's stance on many things. Don't see it as bashing Danny on a personal level but, in many ways, bashing the lot of us in NA.

Jeffrey, nothing else that I said was in any way bashing Danny but responding, point by point, to his comments. Yes, Danny's comments were "rather harshly put" and until Danny can learn to express his points in a more polite way, then he should expect to get bashed right back - althoug I made VERY certain not to do so as I refuse to lower myself in such a way any more.

Its amazing that, in person, Danny doesn't do this and seems to be a great guy to hang around. In e-mails, however, things seem to change. Perhaps its the medium that makes him think that his language is appropriate but it certainly discourages people from participating in other regions and actually adds to the problem. I have heard many a comment on this.

Thank you,

Darlene

From: alac-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org on behalf of Jeffrey A. Williams
Sent: Fri 2/15/2008 8:01 PM
To: At-Large Worldwide; aheineman@ntia.doc.gov
Cc: IPC
Subject: Re: [At-Large] Resolution of the Board of Directors related totheproposed Summit

Darlene and all,
Pardon me, but I didn't read any ""North American white male"-centric standard'" expressed
in Danny's earlier remarks. However I do detect a significant unqualified and seemingly
unjustified determination of desiring improperly at you attempting to bash Danny on such
a false basis...
The North American as well as most of the EU nations mistrust of ICANN is well justified
and ICANN has well earned that mistrust. Given the a few weeks ago Peter had
sent the NTIA a letter desiring to be released for the DOC/NTIA's oversight would
seem to indicate not only from a timing stand point, but from a growing/mounting
mound of evidence that ICANN is in violation of a number of US federal statutes,
and is likely to desire to seek refuge in any country to host ICANN in order
to avoid future prosecution. Additionally as the IPC is loosing some of the
public advantage it once enjoyed due mainly to one of it's members, namely
the RIAA constant and misguided legal strategy to control the DNS and
Domain name system amongst other areas of the Internet experience, it is
obvious to even the casual observer that ICANN's board now populated with
IPC centric members, is very concerned as to their creditability and future
personal freedom or financial where with all... And the should be given
the IPC's members errant activities!
Regards,
Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 277k members/stakeholders strong!)
"Obedience of the law is the greatest freedom" -
Abraham Lincoln
"Credit should go with the performance of duty and not with what is
very often the accident of glory" - Theodore Roosevelt
"If the probability be called P; the injury, L; and the burden, B;
liability depends upon whether B is less than L multiplied by
P: i.e., whether B is less than PL."
United States v. Carroll Towing (159 F.2d 169 [2d Cir. 1947]
===============================================================
Updated 1/26/04
CSO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security IDNS.
div. of Information Network Eng. INEG. INC.
ABA member in good standing member ID 01257402 E-Mail
jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com
My Phone: 214-244-4827
"Thompson, Darlene" wrote:
Danny,

1. I wasn't involved in this particular budget, although I will be for Cairo. I will have to get back to you on the budget calculations when I get back home which won't be for about a week and a half as I am presenting at another conference in Vancouver in the interim.

2. I hear ya but we cannot all judge the rest of the world by the usual "North American white male"-centric standard. I am hearing from other regions that just cannot get input from their ALSs. Why? Various reasons. Although, I look at myself, with all of the advantages in the world, and its taken 3 ICANN meetings and a year and a half for me to finally start putting everything together and in perspective and become up to speed on the issues. And I'm still not anywhere NEAR where you are but doing my best. Many others have not had the benefits of the meetings and discussions that I have had so I can only imagine how they are feeling. Especially when they see discussions like this happening on list. Can you imagine how discouraging that is?

3. The ALSs that MIGHT already have a clue in NA won't become an ALS because of mistrust of ICANN (imagine!) so we cannot even engage those ones. This needs to be cleared up and both you and I know the reasons behind this.

4. Of the five issues that you pointed out below, even *I* was only aware of one of them. Better lines of communication are REALLY necessary.

I really hope that my friends in other regions will respond to your e-mail as this is the last one that I will send on this topice but they are probably in the air right now. As I am still available and on-line I am acting as a stop-gap to try to answer your questions but am probably not the most experienced person in the world to do so.

Darlene

From: Danny Younger [mailto:dannyyounger@yahoo.com]
Sent: Fri 2/15/2008 9:59 AM
To: Thompson, Darlene; At-Large Worldwide
Cc: vb@bertola.eu
Subject: RE: [At-Large] Resolution of the Board of Directors related to theproposed Summit
Darlene,
1. As per the ICANN Policy VP "US$7,000 is the
estimate ICANN uses for international travel and is
based on business class purchased 45+ days in advance
through ICANN's travel agents." -- see
http://gnso.icann.org/mailing-lists/archives/council/msg04282.html
If the At-Large intends to provide travel funding for
each of the 100+ ALSs, then the budgeted amount will
exceed $700,000 (by standard calculations).
2. I'm really getting tired of hearing this song and
dance about the poor uneducated, unengaged
non-contributing ALSs. Each one of them agreed upon
signing up to a defined set of responsibilities (that
most all have ignored) that boil down to this --
paying attention to what's going on, and reporting
back with policy advice.
Since the Los Angeles session we have seen the
following developments:
a. Network Solutions engaging in front-running (or,
more properly, "domain reservation" activities).
b. registrants at Belgiumdomains being unable to
manage their accounts as their registrar has been
locked-out of VeriSign by Court Order stemming from
the Dell typosquatting lawsuit
c. the CADNA submission/research on drop-catching
issues
d. the change put through by .travel management
allowing for PPC speculation in dot travel, along with
the .travel registry being put up for sale
e. a board member (Rita Rodin), who functions as
legal counsel for Telnic, engaged in active
discussions on the .tel contractual amendments (a
slight conflict of interest, wouldn't you think?).
Yet the ALAC and the ALSs have had nothing to say
about any of these issues... poor babies, they can't
use a computer like the rest of us to keep current on
issues -- they have to be led by the hand and
"educated".
Sorry, but this is a waste of money that will produce
no beneficial results. Those that care make an effort
to pay attention and manage to participate (as evinced
by years of member participation in the GA that saw a
subscriber list in excess of 1000 participants). None
of them had to be spoon fed on the registrant's dime.

--- "Thompson, Darlene" <DThompson@GOV.NU.CA> wrote:
> Danny,
>
> #1 - See my e-mail to Vittorio wherein I correct the
> amount. I know you got that amount from me in the
> first place but we have worked really hard this week
> to bring that down.
>
> #2 - Its rather hard for ALSs to finalize serious
> documents on issues that actually concern the
> community, perform analyses, make concrete
> recommentations and such if they aren't adequately
> engaged or educated on the issues at stake. This is
> precisely what the Summit is geared to correct.
>
> Darlene
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: alac-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org on behalf
> of Danny Younger
> Sent: Fri 2/15/2008 7:57 AM
> To: 'At-Large Worldwide'
> Cc: vb@bertola.eu
> Subject: [At-Large] Resolution of the Board of
> Directors related to theproposed Summit
>
>
>
> Re: "Do I get it well?"
>
> Yes, Vittorio, you get it well.
>
> While other advisory bodies will be busy working,
> finalizing serious documents on issues that actually
> concern the community, performing analyses, making
> concrete recommendations and such, the at-large will
> be busy wasting a half million dollars of registrant
> monies on a giant group hug.
>
>
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>
> _______________________________________________
> ALAC mailing list
> ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org
>
http://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac_atlarge-lists.icann.org
>
> At-Large Official Site: http://www.alac.icann.org
> <http://www.alac.icann.org/>
> ALAC Independent: http://www.icannalac.org
> <http://www.icannalac.org/>
>
>
>

____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
_______________________________________________
ALAC mailing list
ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org
http://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac_atlarge-lists.icann.org

At-Large Official Site: http://www.alac.icann.org
ALAC Independent: http://www.icannalac.org

Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! MSN Messenger