Thanks for the testing of IDN and the testing of how using IDNs with email works in 2022. I think what Opera does (I don't use Opera) is if emoji is entered in the address bar, it redirects to y.at/<whatever emoji was typed> So one has to register the emoji "domain" with y.at and than you could access it from any browser using y.at/<emoji string> (although I don't think Firefox allows emoji in its address bar) Playing with https://y.at/create , it appears that you can register up to 5 emoji icons for your name. The pricing varies with the length of the emoji string and the particular emoji used. Even swapping the emoji around changes the pricing. So perhaps there's no way this is meant to be used for email addresses. Dev Anand On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 at 10:09 AM, Michele Neylon - Blacknight < michele@blacknight.com> wrote:

I’ve been **trying** to use a domain name with a fada (accent) in it both to send a receive email.

It has NOT been going well:

https://michele.blog/trying-domains-with-accents-again-idn-domains/

So the likelihood of this emoji thing working with email is about slim to none

--

Mr Michele Neylon

Blacknight Solutions

Hosting, Colocation & Domains

https://www.blacknight.com/

https://blacknight.blog/

Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072

Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090

Personal blog: https://michele.blog/

Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/

-------------------------------

Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty

Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845

*From: *At-Large <at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> on behalf of Dev Anand Teelucksingh via At-Large <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> *Date: *Friday, 18 February 2022 at 15:17 *To: *At-Large Worldwide <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> *Subject: *[At-Large] Opera now lets you ditch boring web links and use emojis instead

*[EXTERNAL EMAIL]* Please use caution when opening attachments from unrecognised sources.

Hyperbole aside, wonder how (or if) emails could work - Dev Anand

https://blogs.opera.com/news/2022/02/opera-emoji-links-yat/

"Are you ready to take emojis to the next level? How about using emojis for a website address? Our new partnership with Yat is helping make this dream come true, by integrating their emoji system into our browsers on Windows, Mac, Android and iOS, as well as in the Opera Crypto Browser Project <https://blogs.opera.com/crypto/2022/01/opera-crypto-browser-project-web3/>. Long story short, you can now access emoji-only-based web addresses and register your unique strings of emojis as your personal domains.

With Opera as the *first browser to enable emoji-only based web addresses*, we’re bringing a new level of creativity to the internet, letting you navigate the web with strings of emojis as URLs, instead of letters and words.

This is a major shift in the way the internet works, and is sign of the changing times. Thirty-some years ago, the world wide web was first launched to the public, but not much has changed in regards to weblinks, and we still use .com in our URLs. Now though, through this integration with Yat, all you Opera fans can ditch .com, or even words in general, and make your way to websites using emojis. It’s new, it’s easier and certainly a lot more fun.

The emojification of Opera is thanks to Yat <https://emojis.y.at/>, the company that allows you to own personalized strings of emojis. The emoji-centric integration lets you easily find yat pages—unique domains that are generated when you create a yat from a personalized string of emojis...."

Recall the argument against emoji characters in a name stems from the fact that while emoji - and emoji-like - characters are accorded Unicode subscription, their categorization and the lack of a single acceptable standard for rendering them made their consistent interpretation and resolution 'touchy, at best'. The conclusive advice: disallowed. The IDN taskforce and Universal Acceptance folks have been grappling with this for some time now. Carlton ============================== *Carlton A Samuels* *Mobile: 876-818-1799Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* ============================= On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 at 09:09, Michele Neylon - Blacknight via At-Large < at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> wrote:

I’ve been **trying** to use a domain name with a fada (accent) in it both to send a receive email.

It has NOT been going well:

https://michele.blog/trying-domains-with-accents-again-idn-domains/

So the likelihood of this emoji thing working with email is about slim to none

--

Mr Michele Neylon

Blacknight Solutions

Hosting, Colocation & Domains

https://www.blacknight.com/

https://blacknight.blog/

Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072

Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090

Personal blog: https://michele.blog/

Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/

-------------------------------

Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty

Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845

*From: *At-Large <at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> on behalf of Dev Anand Teelucksingh via At-Large <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> *Date: *Friday, 18 February 2022 at 15:17 *To: *At-Large Worldwide <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> *Subject: *[At-Large] Opera now lets you ditch boring web links and use emojis instead

*[EXTERNAL EMAIL]* Please use caution when opening attachments from unrecognised sources.

Hyperbole aside, wonder how (or if) emails could work - Dev Anand

https://blogs.opera.com/news/2022/02/opera-emoji-links-yat/

"Are you ready to take emojis to the next level? How about using emojis for a website address? Our new partnership with Yat is helping make this dream come true, by integrating their emoji system into our browsers on Windows, Mac, Android and iOS, as well as in the Opera Crypto Browser Project <https://blogs.opera.com/crypto/2022/01/opera-crypto-browser-project-web3/>. Long story short, you can now access emoji-only-based web addresses and register your unique strings of emojis as your personal domains.

With Opera as the *first browser to enable emoji-only based web addresses*, we’re bringing a new level of creativity to the internet, letting you navigate the web with strings of emojis as URLs, instead of letters and words.

This is a major shift in the way the internet works, and is sign of the changing times. Thirty-some years ago, the world wide web was first launched to the public, but not much has changed in regards to weblinks, and we still use .com in our URLs. Now though, through this integration with Yat, all you Opera fans can ditch .com, or even words in general, and make your way to websites using emojis. It’s new, it’s easier and certainly a lot more fun.

The emojification of Opera is thanks to Yat <https://emojis.y.at/>, the company that allows you to own personalized strings of emojis. The emoji-centric integration lets you easily find yat pages—unique domains that are generated when you create a yat from a personalized string of emojis...." _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large

At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.

My personal opinion is that IDNs address a real problem of people who do use a non-latin script and have the legitimate interest to be able to use their own language and script. If the Internet aims at being multilingual and provide equal access to everybody, there is a need to solve the issue of scripts used by different languages - including Irish fada, because as Michele has explained time and again there are cases in which a word with fada has a completely different meaning than the similar one without. So in this case, spending time and resources by ICANN is in order. OTOH, my personal opinion is that the use of emoji is just a vanity problem. People have the right to ask for vanity solutions, and businesses have the right to produce “innovation” that addresses this, but the question is why should ICANN (UASG) devote some of its (scarce) resources to support this? I think that the only thing that we should care about is that whatever “innovative” way to make money using the DNS does not break it. Cheers, R.

On 20.02.2022, at 17:49, Carlton Samuels via At-Large <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> wrote:

Recall the argument against emoji characters in a name stems from the fact that while emoji - and emoji-like - characters are accorded Unicode subscription, their categorization and the lack of a single acceptable standard for rendering them made their consistent interpretation and resolution 'touchy, at best'. The conclusive advice: disallowed.

The IDN taskforce and Universal Acceptance folks have been grappling with this for some time now.

Carlton

============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround =============================

On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 at 09:09, Michele Neylon - Blacknight via At-Large <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org <mailto:at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org>> wrote: I’ve been *trying* to use a domain name with a fada (accent) in it both to send a receive email.

It has NOT been going well:

https://michele.blog/trying-domains-with-accents-again-idn-domains/ <https://michele.blog/trying-domains-with-accents-again-idn-domains/>

So the likelihood of this emoji thing working with email is about slim to none

--

Mr Michele Neylon

Blacknight Solutions

Hosting, Colocation & Domains

https://www.blacknight.com/ <https://www.blacknight.com/> https://blacknight.blog/ <https://blacknight.blog/> Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072

Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090

Personal blog: https://michele.blog/ <https://michele.blog/> Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/ <https://ceo.hosting/> -------------------------------

Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty

Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845

From: At-Large <at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org <mailto:at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org>> on behalf of Dev Anand Teelucksingh via At-Large <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org <mailto:at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org>> Date: Friday, 18 February 2022 at 15:17 To: At-Large Worldwide <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org <mailto:at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org>> Subject: [At-Large] Opera now lets you ditch boring web links and use emojis instead

[EXTERNAL EMAIL] Please use caution when opening attachments from unrecognised sources.

Hyperbole aside, wonder how (or if) emails could work - Dev Anand

https://blogs.opera.com/news/2022/02/opera-emoji-links-yat/ <https://blogs.opera.com/news/2022/02/opera-emoji-links-yat/>

"Are you ready to take emojis to the next level? How about using emojis for a website address? Our new partnership with Yat is helping make this dream come true, by integrating their emoji system into our browsers on Windows, Mac, Android and iOS, as well as in the Opera Crypto Browser Project <https://blogs.opera.com/crypto/2022/01/opera-crypto-browser-project-web3/>. Long story short, you can now access emoji-only-based web addresses and register your unique strings of emojis as your personal domains.

With Opera as the first browser to enable emoji-only based web addresses, we’re bringing a new level of creativity to the internet, letting you navigate the web with strings of emojis as URLs, instead of letters and words.

This is a major shift in the way the internet works, and is sign of the changing times. Thirty-some years ago, the world wide web was first launched to the public, but not much has changed in regards to weblinks, and we still use .com in our URLs. Now though, through this integration with Yat, all you Opera fans can ditch .com, or even words in general, and make your way to websites using emojis. It’s new, it’s easier and certainly a lot more fun.

The emojification of Opera is thanks to Yat <https://emojis.y.at/>, the company that allows you to own personalized strings of emojis. The emoji-centric integration lets you easily find yat pages—unique domains that are generated when you create a yat from a personalized string of emojis...."

_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org <mailto:At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large <https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large>

At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org <http://atlarge.icann.org/> _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy <https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy>) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos <https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos>). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large

At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.

I await ICANN's response to the Venusian amabassadors' demand that their five dimensional connection matrix skunk literature be incorporated in the DNS to participate in the Interplanetary Internet offering the dimensionally limited humanoids with the soup to sublimate. I offer this meagre iconic effort as a sign of hope the Internet is alive and will not obfuscate with "IDN's and no further!" ;-) C On 20/02/2022 17:46, Roberto Gaetano via At-Large wrote:

My personal opinion is that IDNs address a real problem of people who do use a non-latin script and have the legitimate interest to be able to use their own language and script. If the Internet aims at being multilingual and provide equal access to everybody, there is a need to solve the issue of scripts used by different languages - including Irish fada, because as Michele has explained time and again there are cases in which a word with fada has a completely different meaning than the similar one without. So in this case, spending time and resources by ICANN is in order.

OTOH, my personal opinion is that the use of emoji is just a vanity problem. People have the right to ask for vanity solutions, and businesses have the right to produce “innovation” that addresses this, but the question is why should ICANN (UASG) devote some of its (scarce) resources to support this? I think that the only thing that we should care about is that whatever “innovative” way to make money using the DNS does not break it.

Cheers, R.

...

On 20.02.2022, at 17:49, Carlton Samuels via At-Large <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> wrote:

Recall the argument against emoji characters in a name stems from the fact that while emoji - and emoji-like - characters are accorded Unicode subscription, their categorization and the lack of a single acceptable standard for rendering them made their consistent interpretation and resolution 'touchy, at best'.  The conclusive advice: disallowed.

The IDN taskforce and Universal Acceptance folks have been grappling with this for some time now.

Carlton

============================== /Carlton A Samuels/ /Mobile: 876-818-1799 Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround/ =============================

On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 at 09:09, Michele Neylon - Blacknight via At-Large <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> wrote:

I’ve been **trying** to use a domain name with a fada (accent) in it both to send a receive email.

It has NOT been going well:

https://michele.blog/trying-domains-with-accents-again-idn-domains/

So the likelihood of this emoji thing working with email is about slim to none

--

Mr Michele Neylon

Blacknight Solutions

Hosting, Colocation & Domains

https://www.blacknight.com/ <https://www.blacknight.com/>

https://blacknight.blog/ <https://blacknight.blog/>

Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072

Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090

Personal blog: https://michele.blog/ <https://michele.blog/>

Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/ <https://ceo.hosting/>

-------------------------------

Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty

Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland  Company No.: 370845

*From: *At-Large <at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> on behalf of Dev Anand Teelucksingh via At-Large <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> *Date: *Friday, 18 February 2022 at 15:17 *To: *At-Large Worldwide <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> *Subject: *[At-Large] Opera now lets you ditch boring web links and use emojis instead

*[EXTERNAL EMAIL]*Please use caution when opening attachments from unrecognised sources.

Hyperbole aside, wonder how (or if) emails could work - Dev Anand

https://blogs.opera.com/news/2022/02/opera-emoji-links-yat/

"Are you ready to take emojis to the next level? How about using emojis for a website address? Our new partnership with Yat is helping make this dream come true, by integrating their emoji system into our browsers on Windows, Mac, Android and iOS, as well as in the Opera Crypto Browser Project <https://blogs.opera.com/crypto/2022/01/opera-crypto-browser-project-web3/>. Long story short, you can now access emoji-only-based web addresses and register your unique strings of emojis as your personal domains.

With Opera as the _first browser to enable emoji-only based web addresses_, we’re bringing a new level of creativity to the internet, letting you navigate the web with strings of emojis as URLs, instead of letters and words.

This is a major shift in the way the internet works, and is sign of the changing times. Thirty-some years ago, the world wide web was first launched to the public, but not much has changed in regards to weblinks, and we still use .com in our URLs. Now though, through this integration with Yat, all you Opera fans can ditch .com, or even words in general, and make your way to websites using emojis. It’s new, it’s easier and certainly a lot more fun.

The emojification of Opera is thanks to Yat <https://emojis.y.at/>, the company that allows you to own personalized strings of emojis. The emoji-centric integration lets you easily find yat pages—unique domains that are generated when you create a yat from a personalized string of emojis...."

_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large

At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.

_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large

At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.

_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large

At-Large Official Site:http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.

On 2/20/22 8:52 AM, sivasubramanian muthusamy via At-Large wrote:

What does ICANN think about private and often proprietary 'innovations' that aspire to "cause a major shift in the way the Internet [DNS] works" ?

Remember, the Internet came from a rejection of the status-quo, the world of circuit switching and central control. The question you asked is not far distant from a question whether we ought to nail down the Internet in the same way the telcos of the first three quarters of the 20th century ossified the telephone networks. Ma Bell and other telco's imposed extreme, and often arbitrary, limits on innovation at the edges. Take a look at the 1956 US case regarding the Hush-a-Phone. (In that case AT&T tried to block the attachment of what was essentially a plastic hand that would be attached by the user to the mouthpiece of a telephone. At&T made wild claims that that would cause the telephone network to collapse and repairmen would blown off the top of telephone poles.)  Then look at the Carterphone and MCI cases. One of the hallmarks of the Internet is permissionless innovation at the edges. Clearly there are balances to be made, but we risk a balance that pushes too much control to the center. Some decades ago I distilled this balance into a short formulation: First Law of the Internet + Every person shall be free to use the Internet in any way   that is privately beneficial without being publicly   detrimental.    - The burden of demonstrating public detriment shall      be on those who wish to prevent the private use.        - Such a demonstration shall require clear and          convincing evidence of public detriment.    - The public detriment must be of such degree and extent      as to justify the suppression of the private activity. https://www.cavebear.com/old_cbblog/000059.html         --karl--

As a personal issue I think the notion of emojis in DNS is little more than a concession to a (hopefully) passing childish fad. And from a security perspective (not to mention the confusion of users in genera) I have a intuitive sense that it is a fad that contains seeds of trouble. But I'm just one person out of billions of us. I don't use emojis, but it seems that a lot of us do. And I don't want to be like the voice of Ma Bell in the 1960's loudly proclaiming that packet switching and the attachment of foreign devices were something to be avoided and banned. So how do I decide? So using the rubric of my "first law of the internet" I start with the position of "emojis ought to be allowed" on the basis of them being of private benefit (although I personally find it hard to see that benefit or credit it with value.) Then I say "but is there a public detriment and if so is it substantial enough to block that private benefit?" As things stand right now I can't clearly and concretely articulate the public detriments (although I feel that they are out there) much less measure them. Which, according to my rule means that I would conclude to take no action (at this time) against emojis in domain names. But I'd suggest inquiries and research to obtain more concrete information about the issue. (Yes, I realize that my conclusion contains a strong possibility that we could end up with an deeply entrenched ill practice.) Part of this is informed by my belief that the domain name system is slowly fading from the public eye; that we are moving into a world in which DNS names are becoming more a part of the hidden machinery of the net (like MAC addresses) and that higher level naming abstractions, things like Twitter names or Facebook handles, are becoming the more prevalent forms of naming on the net. I also am of the belief that on the net attributes are often more important than names. For instance, if I am looking to buy some machine screws I care more about the attribute "hardware store" than any particular name of such a store. In that vein I sense that it might be a useful endeavor to create a list of attribute types [and for each some definition of the possible values]. I'm thinking something like the Dublin Core metadata definitions, but of more universal applicability. To make use of such a world in which things are known by their attributes as much as by their names we would need new protocol and server machinery to do the kind of soft lookups that attribute systems need. As is my tendency, I sense that such things might well learn from the biological world in which "adequate matching" is often a key to survival. --karl-- On 2/20/22 17:29, Alejandro Pisanty wrote:

Karl,

TL;DR, QED for no emojis in DNS. Thanks.

Alejandro Pisanty

On Sun, Feb 20, 2022 at 3:52 PM Karl Auerbach via At-Large <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org <mailto:at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org>> wrote:

On 2/20/22 8:52 AM, sivasubramanian muthusamy via At-Large wrote:

> What does ICANN think about private and often proprietary > 'innovations' that aspire to "cause a major shift in the way the > Internet [DNS] works" ? > Remember, the Internet came from a rejection of the status-quo, the world of circuit switching and central control.

The question you asked is not far distant from a question whether we ought to nail down the Internet in the same way the telcos of the first three quarters of the 20th century ossified the telephone networks.

Ma Bell and other telco's imposed extreme, and often arbitrary, limits on innovation at the edges. Take a look at the 1956 US case regarding the Hush-a-Phone. (In that case AT&T tried to block the attachment of what was essentially a plastic hand that would be attached by the user to the mouthpiece of a telephone. At&T made wild claims that that would cause the telephone network to collapse and repairmen would blown off the top of telephone poles.)  Then look at the Carterphone and MCI cases.

One of the hallmarks of the Internet is permissionless innovation at the edges. Clearly there are balances to be made, but we risk a balance that pushes too much control to the center.

Some decades ago I distilled this balance into a short formulation:

First Law of the Internet

+ Every person shall be free to use the Internet in any way    that is privately beneficial without being publicly    detrimental.

    - The burden of demonstrating public detriment shall       be on those who wish to prevent the private use.

        - Such a demonstration shall require clear and           convincing evidence of public detriment.

    - The public detriment must be of such degree and extent       as to justify the suppression of the private activity.

https://www.cavebear.com/old_cbblog/000059.html <https://www.cavebear.com/old_cbblog/000059.html>

         --karl--

_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org <mailto:At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large <https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large>

At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org <http://atlarge.icann.org> _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy <https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy>) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos <https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos>). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.

-- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -      Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Facultad de Química UNAM Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico +525541444475 Blog: http://pisanty.blogspot.com <http://pisanty.blogspot.com> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty <http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty> Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn, http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614 <http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614> Twitter: http://twitter.com/apisanty <http://twitter.com/apisanty> ---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, http://www.isoc.org <http://www.isoc.org> .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .

On Mon, Feb 21, 2022, 10:06 Karl Auerbach via At-Large < at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> wrote:

As a personal issue I think the notion of emojis in DNS is little more than a concession to a (hopefully) passing childish fad.

And from a security perspective (not to mention the confusion of users in genera) I have a intuitive sense that it is a fad that contains seeds of trouble.

But I'm just one person out of billions of us. I don't use emojis, but it seems that a lot of us do.

And I don't want to be like the voice of Ma Bell in the 1960's loudly proclaiming that packet switching and the attachment of foreign devices were something to be avoided and banned.

So how do I decide?

So using the rubric of my "first law of the internet" I start with the position of "emojis ought to be allowed" on the basis of them being of private benefit (although I personally find it hard to see that benefit or credit it with value.)

Then I say "but is there a public detriment and if so is it substantial enough to block that private benefit?"

As things stand right now I can't clearly and concretely articulate the public detriments (although I feel that they are out there) much less measure them.

Which, according to my rule means that I would conclude to take no action (at this time) against emojis in domain names.

But I'd suggest

inquiries and research to obtain more concrete information about the issue.

+1 Karl. Especially in the context of the challenges to the DNS and Barry's subsequent comment on emojis being a greenfield free of coordination.

(Yes, I realize that my conclusion contains a strong possibility

that we could end up with an deeply entrenched ill practice.)

Part of this is informed by my belief that the domain name system is slowly fading from the public eye; that we are moving into a world in which DNS names are becoming more a part of the hidden machinery of the net (like MAC addresses) and that higher level naming abstractions, things like Twitter names or Facebook handles, are becoming the more prevalent forms of naming on the net.

I also am of the belief that on the net attributes are often more important than names. For instance, if I am looking to buy some machine screws I care more about the attribute "hardware store" than any particular name of such a store. In that vein I sense that it might be a useful endeavor to create a list of attribute types [and for each some definition of the possible values]. I'm thinking something like the Dublin Core metadata definitions, but of more universal applicability. To make use of such a world in which things are known by their attributes as much as by their names we would need new protocol and server machinery to do the kind of soft lookups that attribute systems need. As is my tendency, I sense that such things might well learn from the biological world in which "adequate matching" is often a key to survival.

--karl--

On 2/20/22 17:29, Alejandro Pisanty wrote:

...

Karl,

TL;DR, QED for no emojis in DNS. Thanks.

Alejandro Pisanty

On Sun, Feb 20, 2022 at 3:52 PM Karl Auerbach via At-Large <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org <mailto:at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org>> wrote:

On 2/20/22 8:52 AM, sivasubramanian muthusamy via At-Large wrote:

> What does ICANN think about private and often proprietary > 'innovations' that aspire to "cause a major shift in the way the > Internet [DNS] works" ? > Remember, the Internet came from a rejection of the status-quo, the world of circuit switching and central control.

The question you asked is not far distant from a question whether we ought to nail down the Internet in the same way the telcos of the first three quarters of the 20th century ossified the telephone networks.

Ma Bell and other telco's imposed extreme, and often arbitrary, limits on innovation at the edges. Take a look at the 1956 US case regarding the Hush-a-Phone. (In that case AT&T tried to block the attachment of what was essentially a plastic hand that would be attached by the user to the mouthpiece of a telephone. At&T made wild claims that that would cause the telephone network to collapse and repairmen would blown off the top of telephone poles.) Then look at the Carterphone and MCI cases.

One of the hallmarks of the Internet is permissionless innovation at the edges. Clearly there are balances to be made, but we risk a balance that pushes too much control to the center.

Some decades ago I distilled this balance into a short formulation:

First Law of the Internet

+ Every person shall be free to use the Internet in any way that is privately beneficial without being publicly detrimental.

- The burden of demonstrating public detriment shall be on those who wish to prevent the private use.

- Such a demonstration shall require clear and convincing evidence of public detriment.

- The public detriment must be of such degree and extent as to justify the suppression of the private activity.

https://www.cavebear.com/old_cbblog/000059.html <https://www.cavebear.com/old_cbblog/000059.html>

--karl--

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On Sun, Feb 20, 2022 at 11:36 PM Karl Auerbach via At-Large < at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> wrote: [...] the domain name system is slowly fading from the public eye; that we

are moving into a world in which DNS names are becoming more a part of the hidden machinery of the net (like MAC addresses) and that higher level naming abstractions, things like Twitter names or Facebook handles, are becoming the more prevalent forms of naming on the net.

You're right of course, but there's a whole industry of self-proclaimed branding experts holding inventories of "memorable" domain names that prays you're not. It's a very burstable bubble. But it's not just social media handles and emojis that threaten. In parts of Asia and elsewhere, the PITA of non-Latin strings have been widely bypassed in favour of QR codes pointing to "illegible" domains. That's where the real Universal Acceptance lies.

I also am of the belief that on the net attributes are often more important than names. For instance, if I am looking to buy some machine screws I care more about the attribute "hardware store" than any particular name of such a store.

Arguably search engines meet much of this need already. One could and should have realized that "memorable" domain names were on the way down once browser makers merged the search and URL entry fields. From then on, typing <mumble> would almost always yield a more satisfying result than specifying <mumble.com> or for that matter <mumble.anything>. The commoditization of common words and especially category names, driven by an ever-growing mining of TLDs under ICANN, has just sped the process of turning people towards search and away from normal domain names. Cheers, Evan

On February 21, 2022 at 01:32 at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org (Evan Leibovitch via At-Large) wrote:

On Sun, Feb 20, 2022 at 11:36 PM Karl Auerbach via At-Large < at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> wrote:

[...] the domain name system is slowly fading from the public eye; that we are moving into a world in which DNS names are becoming more a part of the hidden machinery of the net (like MAC addresses) and that higher level naming abstractions, things like Twitter names or Facebook handles, are becoming the more prevalent forms of naming on the net.

You're right of course, but there's a whole industry of self-proclaimed branding experts holding inventories of "memorable" domain names that prays you're not. It's a very burstable bubble.

As I've said for decades: Notice that WIPO, USPTO, et al don't allow you to just register and squat on interesting strings. Or have rules which make that a useless endeavor ("use it or lose it", etc.) That's not due to a lack of imagination. They saw the problem 200+ years ago (I made that number up, but a long time ago.)

But it's not just social media handles and emojis that threaten. In parts of Asia and elsewhere, the PITA of non-Latin strings have been widely bypassed in favour of QR codes pointing to "illegible" domains. That's where the real Universal Acceptance lies.

I also am of the belief that on the net attributes are often more important than names.  For instance, if I am looking to buy some machine screws I care more about the attribute "hardware store" than any particular name of such a store.

Arguably search engines meet much of this need already. One could and should have realized that "memorable" domain names were on the way down once browser makers merged the search and URL entry fields. From then on, typing <mumble> would almost always yield a more satisfying result than specifying <mumble.com> or for that matter <mumble.anything>. The commoditization of common words and especially category names, driven by an ever-growing mining of TLDs under ICANN, has just sped the process of turning people towards search and away from normal domain names.

How do you put this 'search' on printed advertisements? It's been tried but is likely to send potential customers to your competitors unless your product is very unique. Even "search for our trademarked brand name" has become almost valueless because search engines recognize brand names and broaden the search to the product category. For example a particular smart phone brand is likely to net results for many different phones. Worse, many brand names are generic words. Even worse, the search terms go to the highest bidder. Type 'apple' or 'galaxy' into a search box and you will probably have to scroll many pages down before you run into anything about the fruit or astronomy. Ok, "worse", is a value judgement...works for the marketeers! The point is it's not either/or, all this is operating simultaneously.

Cheers,

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On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 1:34 PM Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org> wrote:

On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 6:19 PM Barry Shein via At-Large < at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> wrote:

Type 'apple' or 'galaxy' into a search box and you will probably have to

...

scroll many pages down before you run into anything about the fruit or astronomy.

Exactly. But the searcher can type "apple computer" or "apple music" or "apple farm near me" to get right to the result they want, and there is no equivalent in the DNS. I searched for "galaxy phone" and got no astronomy hits.

Research followup. While a search for "apple" is too vague in providing too many results, a URL request for "apple.com" is too vague in its own way. There can be only one owner, and there's no way of gleaning from the URL whether it's a computer company, a music company, an agricultural company or something else. You actually have to go to the site to figure out what it is. The theory (and certainly the sales pitch) behind the vaunted gTLD expansion(s) was to address this limitation by allowing a variety of TLDs that could better narrow down a string's intent. So let's see how Barry's example is actually working out in the DNS. As of tonight: - apple.com goes to the American computer/phone/streaming company (so far so good, though not intuitive) - apple.farm goes to a park page and is for sale (one site has the appraised value at just under $1000 <https://pc.domains/basic/apple.farm> ) - apple.music does not resolve - apple.computer does not resolve - apple.mobi does not resolve (not exactly intuitive, but it's the closest I can come to the nonexistent .phone) - apple.ca (my own ccTLD) is a redundant link to apple.com (so much for diversity of choice from the CCs) - apple.technology goes to the American computer/phone/streaming company's developer program (no extra choice in apples but it *is* a creative use) - galaxy.com resolves but doesn't work - galaxy.technology does not resolve - galaxy.mobi does not resolve - galaxy.music does not resolve - galaxy.computer resolves to an IP address in the UK but times out So... from the PoV of a consumer, use of domains is a relative nightmare for actually finding destinations in real-world situations. Type "apple" or "galaxy" into a search box and you will get a deluge, but you can narrow your search to something useful using a second search work to narrow the scope. Typing in "apple" or "galaxy" as a domain, goes to only one instance of a company called apple and is useless if you're interested in the fruit or music service or anything to do with something called "Galaxy" whether Korean phone or Ford model or Monty Python song or celestial phenomenon etc. Meanwhile search will work for nearly any strings whether or not anyone has paid to own them. In other words, I'm still waiting for a shred of evidence that indicates how "foo.sometld" is superior to "search for 'foo' " in any way that a consumer may want to find an Internet destination. The only downside is an extra mouseclick on the search page, but that is offset by the benefit of having a choice of search engines. OTOH, Barry's own example offers some great evidence AGAINST the superiority of domains versus search. - Evan

On Thu, Feb 24, 2022, 02:56 Evan Leibovitch via At-Large < at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> wrote:

On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 6:19 PM Barry Shein via At-Large < at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> wrote:

...

As I've said for decades: Notice that WIPO, USPTO, et al don't allow you to just register and squat on interesting strings. Or have rules which make that a useless endeavor ("use it or lose it", etc.)

That's not due to a lack of imagination.

And yet ICANN knew better, deliberately avoiding the same ethos. Here, any collection of symbols is a commodity suitable for rent-seeking (both literally and figuratively). Barry even demonstrated this point by indicating that the new unregulated emoji system is ripe for exploitation, a necessary element truly to bring it inline with everything else in today's DNS.

That was my first clue coming in that ICANN's main non-technical policy function was (and still is) to legitimize the grift. Unfortunately it took me nearly a decade to figure out that At-Large as currently constituted,

cowed by budget restraints

It is a little tricky to discuss the need for sufficient funding for alac, because it gives room for convoluting the discussion as one for more 'travel funding' as has happened before. However it is imperative to amplify such a call as it is a core flaw in the design of the ICANN multistakeholder process. ALAC needs a liberal allocation as money in a bank account that the Chair could draw almost at will. ALAC without funds to operate, without funds to support At large, without funds for any programs, while the other parts of the ICANN community is affluent or powerful several fold, is an end user constituency (the Civil Society part in the multistakeholder process) that is not properly seated in the room with the respect and importance that it merits. and the need to be loved by the grifters, provides cover for them while

perfecting the art of bikeshedding. What I thought was a glimmer of light last year -- funds allocation to do an end-user survey about trust -- has been co-opted by this culture and (at the time I disengaged) had mutated into market research for Universal Acceptance. So much for hope. Just my opinions of course.

- Evan

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On Wed, Feb 23, 2022 at 7:27 PM Barry Shein via At-Large < at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> wrote: But no, ICANN produced just about the exact opposite by creating a Sunrise

period

It's pretty obvious that sunrise periods exist primarily for the purpose of giving ICANN insiders a head start -- (and preferential pricing) over the rest of the world at domain acquisition. That such practice is considered uncontroversial and ethical is just one more example of the altered reality inside the ICANN bubble. I find it truly unfortunate that this culture and design has evolved such that only radical intervention from outside this bubble -- from sources such as the California Attorney General -- can really affect ICANN's impact on end users. It's good to know that such backstops exist when the internal process to protect end users reliably fails, even if they only act in extreme circumstances. - Evan

The attributes concept of the Dublin Core model could be applied in public interest to enrich the way Domain names are chosen / registered, especially in the case of highly valuable/useful generic names. The cataloguing model alone wouldn't suffice, because the library-class metadata coding by all segments of users (even business) would not happen so methodically as in the libraries, leaving autotagging by machine learning as the predominant method by which the catalogues would be compiled. ( comment based on a quick, rapid look for the first time on Dublin Core documentation, it is possible that I might have missed something very basic) Sivasubramanian M On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 8:40 PM Carlton Samuels via At-Large < at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> wrote:

Thank you Karl for prompting organic thinking every time you intervene in these discussions. As an AT&T alumnus and having sat through a year of training ( a week every month) at Bell Labs, the fellas were keen to teach us some of those lessons you reprised in commentary.

Karl wrote.........

*"...I also am of the belief that on the net attributes are often more important than names. For instance, if I am looking to buy some machine*

*screws I care more about the attribute "hardware store" than anyparticular name of such a store. In that vein I sense that it might bea useful endeavor to create a list of attribute types [and for each some definition of the possible values]. I'm thinking something like theDublin Core metadata definitions, but of more universal applicability. To make use of such a world in which things are known by theirattributes as much as by their names we would need new protocol and server machinery to do the kind of soft lookups that attribute systemsneed. As is my tendency, I sense that such things might well learn from the biological world in which "adequate matching" is often a key tosurvival."*

By gum! I taught in the library school at the UWI for years Karl, specifically digital libraries and associated concepts of cataloguing and searching where the Dublin Core is central to defining a metadata element set that is inclusive of coding special collections. I share your views on the relative importance of attributes vs. names for information gathering. And have encouraged a kind of extension to the Dublin Core orthodoxy in service.

To the larger point you make on accommodating innovation from the edge, one of my friends, Evan Leibovitch, has been arguing for years that a reckoning is coming and will come to the DNS by several usurpations, among them implementations based on attribute systems. History will absolve him, I think.

Carlton

============================== *Carlton A Samuels*

*Mobile: 876-818-1799Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* =============================

On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 at 23:36, Karl Auerbach via At-Large < at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> wrote:

...

As a personal issue I think the notion of emojis in DNS is little more than a concession to a (hopefully) passing childish fad.

And from a security perspective (not to mention the confusion of users in genera) I have a intuitive sense that it is a fad that contains seeds of trouble.

But I'm just one person out of billions of us. I don't use emojis, but it seems that a lot of us do.

And I don't want to be like the voice of Ma Bell in the 1960's loudly proclaiming that packet switching and the attachment of foreign devices were something to be avoided and banned.

So how do I decide?

So using the rubric of my "first law of the internet" I start with the position of "emojis ought to be allowed" on the basis of them being of private benefit (although I personally find it hard to see that benefit or credit it with value.)

Then I say "but is there a public detriment and if so is it substantial enough to block that private benefit?"

As things stand right now I can't clearly and concretely articulate the public detriments (although I feel that they are out there) much less measure them.

Which, according to my rule means that I would conclude to take no action (at this time) against emojis in domain names. But I'd suggest inquiries and research to obtain more concrete information about the issue. (Yes, I realize that my conclusion contains a strong possibility that we could end up with an deeply entrenched ill practice.)

Part of this is informed by my belief that the domain name system is slowly fading from the public eye; that we are moving into a world in which DNS names are becoming more a part of the hidden machinery of the net (like MAC addresses) and that higher level naming abstractions, things like Twitter names or Facebook handles, are becoming the more prevalent forms of naming on the net.

I also am of the belief that on the net attributes are often more important than names. For instance, if I am looking to buy some machine screws I care more about the attribute "hardware store" than any particular name of such a store. In that vein I sense that it might be a useful endeavor to create a list of attribute types [and for each some definition of the possible values]. I'm thinking something like the Dublin Core metadata definitions, but of more universal applicability. To make use of such a world in which things are known by their attributes as much as by their names we would need new protocol and server machinery to do the kind of soft lookups that attribute systems need. As is my tendency, I sense that such things might well learn from the biological world in which "adequate matching" is often a key to survival.

--karl--

On 2/20/22 17:29, Alejandro Pisanty wrote:

...

Karl,

TL;DR, QED for no emojis in DNS. Thanks.

Alejandro Pisanty

On Sun, Feb 20, 2022 at 3:52 PM Karl Auerbach via At-Large <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org <mailto:at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org>> wrote:

On 2/20/22 8:52 AM, sivasubramanian muthusamy via At-Large wrote:

> What does ICANN think about private and often proprietary > 'innovations' that aspire to "cause a major shift in the way the > Internet [DNS] works" ? > Remember, the Internet came from a rejection of the status-quo, the world of circuit switching and central control.

The question you asked is not far distant from a question whether we ought to nail down the Internet in the same way the telcos of the first three quarters of the 20th century ossified the telephone networks.

Ma Bell and other telco's imposed extreme, and often arbitrary, limits on innovation at the edges. Take a look at the 1956 US case regarding the Hush-a-Phone. (In that case AT&T tried to block the attachment of what was essentially a plastic hand that would be attached by the user to the mouthpiece of a telephone. At&T made wild claims that that would cause the telephone network to collapse and repairmen would blown off the top of telephone poles.) Then look at the Carterphone and MCI cases.

One of the hallmarks of the Internet is permissionless innovation at the edges. Clearly there are balances to be made, but we risk a balance that pushes too much control to the center.

Some decades ago I distilled this balance into a short formulation:

First Law of the Internet

+ Every person shall be free to use the Internet in any way that is privately beneficial without being publicly detrimental.

- The burden of demonstrating public detriment shall be on those who wish to prevent the private use.

- Such a demonstration shall require clear and convincing evidence of public detriment.

- The public detriment must be of such degree and extent as to justify the suppression of the private activity.

https://www.cavebear.com/old_cbblog/000059.html <https://www.cavebear.com/old_cbblog/000059.html>

--karl--

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True. DNS could do more than naming numbers :) On Tue, Feb 22, 2022, 00:07 Karl Auerbach <karl@cavebear.com> wrote:

You are quite right about the constrictions of predefined taxonomy of attributes such as Dublin Core. I suggested it merely to get people thinking about lookups by attribute rather than by name. My sense is that we need something that allows growth via use, much like the hash tagging that we see in so many places. There will, of course be conflicts and collisions.

But if we look at the most successful of all resource-binding systems, the biological systems of living entities to find food and mates, we see a lot of collisions and conflicts. We see butterflies and moths adopting color patterns as signals for the attribute of "species" (for mate finding) and also as a defense "my color pattern makes me look like another species that tastes bad, so don't eat me even though I am of a good tasting species".

(In something as large, diverse, and changing as the internet we may have a lot to learn from the biological world.)

Attribute systems are usually just a preliminary culling to find potential targets of interest.

My example of wanting to buy some M-4 screws and looking up via attributes "hardware store" and "near me" could lead to results that are closed or deal only in wholesale sales. So I'd have to do some additional refinement of the search results. (This is true in biological systems as well.)

Lookups by attribute create an interesting, and often quite valuable, side effect often called "serendipity" - that happens when you are looking for things of type X and you come across something close to X that turns out to be useful. This occurs in libraries as one wanders the stacks looking for a particular volume (perhaps to discover that some professor checked it out 20 years ago and never returned it, grrrr) and you stumble across something else of interest. DNS doesn't have serendipity. DNS is a good system for use underneath attribute systems.

--karl-- On 2/21/22 8:13 AM, sivasubramanian muthusamy wrote:

The attributes concept of the Dublin Core model could be applied in public interest to enrich the way Domain names are chosen / registered, especially in the case of highly valuable/useful generic names. The cataloguing model alone wouldn't suffice, because the library-class metadata coding by all segments of users (even business) would not happen so methodically as in the libraries, leaving autotagging by machine learning as the predominant method by which the catalogues would be compiled. ( comment based on a quick, rapid look for the first time on Dublin Core documentation, it is possible that I might have missed something very basic)

Sivasubramanian M

On Mon, Feb 21, 2022 at 8:40 PM Carlton Samuels via At-Large < at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> wrote:

...

Thank you Karl for prompting organic thinking every time you intervene in these discussions. As an AT&T alumnus and having sat through a year of training ( a week every month) at Bell Labs, the fellas were keen to teach us some of those lessons you reprised in commentary.

Karl wrote.........

*"...I also am of the belief that on the net attributes are often more important than names. For instance, if I am looking to buy some machine *

*screws I care more about the attribute "hardware store" than anyparticular name of such a store. In that vein I sense that it might be a useful endeavor to create a list of attribute types [and for each some definition of the possible values]. I'm thinking something like the Dublin Core metadata definitions, but of more universal applicability. To make use of such a world in which things are known by their attributes as much as by their names we would need new protocol and server machinery to do the kind of soft lookups that attribute systems need. As is my tendency, I sense that such things might well learn from the biological world in which "adequate matching" is often a key to survival."*

By gum! I taught in the library school at the UWI for years Karl, specifically digital libraries and associated concepts of cataloguing and searching where the Dublin Core is central to defining a metadata element set that is inclusive of coding special collections. I share your views on the relative importance of attributes vs. names for information gathering. And have encouraged a kind of extension to the Dublin Core orthodoxy in service.

To the larger point you make on accommodating innovation from the edge, one of my friends, Evan Leibovitch, has been arguing for years that a reckoning is coming and will come to the DNS by several usurpations, among them implementations based on attribute systems. History will absolve him, I think.

Carlton

============================== *Carlton A Samuels*

*Mobile: 876-818-1799 Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* =============================

On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 at 23:36, Karl Auerbach via At-Large < at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> wrote:

...

As a personal issue I think the notion of emojis in DNS is little more than a concession to a (hopefully) passing childish fad.

And from a security perspective (not to mention the confusion of users in genera) I have a intuitive sense that it is a fad that contains seeds of trouble.

But I'm just one person out of billions of us. I don't use emojis, but it seems that a lot of us do.

And I don't want to be like the voice of Ma Bell in the 1960's loudly proclaiming that packet switching and the attachment of foreign devices were something to be avoided and banned.

So how do I decide?

So using the rubric of my "first law of the internet" I start with the position of "emojis ought to be allowed" on the basis of them being of private benefit (although I personally find it hard to see that benefit or credit it with value.)

Then I say "but is there a public detriment and if so is it substantial enough to block that private benefit?"

As things stand right now I can't clearly and concretely articulate the public detriments (although I feel that they are out there) much less measure them.

Which, according to my rule means that I would conclude to take no action (at this time) against emojis in domain names. But I'd suggest inquiries and research to obtain more concrete information about the issue. (Yes, I realize that my conclusion contains a strong possibility that we could end up with an deeply entrenched ill practice.)

Part of this is informed by my belief that the domain name system is slowly fading from the public eye; that we are moving into a world in which DNS names are becoming more a part of the hidden machinery of the net (like MAC addresses) and that higher level naming abstractions, things like Twitter names or Facebook handles, are becoming the more prevalent forms of naming on the net.

I also am of the belief that on the net attributes are often more important than names. For instance, if I am looking to buy some machine screws I care more about the attribute "hardware store" than any particular name of such a store. In that vein I sense that it might be a useful endeavor to create a list of attribute types [and for each some definition of the possible values]. I'm thinking something like the Dublin Core metadata definitions, but of more universal applicability. To make use of such a world in which things are known by their attributes as much as by their names we would need new protocol and server machinery to do the kind of soft lookups that attribute systems need. As is my tendency, I sense that such things might well learn from the biological world in which "adequate matching" is often a key to survival.

--karl--

On 2/20/22 17:29, Alejandro Pisanty wrote:

...

Karl,

TL;DR, QED for no emojis in DNS. Thanks.

Alejandro Pisanty

On Sun, Feb 20, 2022 at 3:52 PM Karl Auerbach via At-Large <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org <mailto:at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org>> wrote:

On 2/20/22 8:52 AM, sivasubramanian muthusamy via At-Large wrote:

> What does ICANN think about private and often proprietary > 'innovations' that aspire to "cause a major shift in the way the > Internet [DNS] works" ? > Remember, the Internet came from a rejection of the status-quo, the world of circuit switching and central control.

The question you asked is not far distant from a question whether we ought to nail down the Internet in the same way the telcos of the first three quarters of the 20th century ossified the telephone networks.

Ma Bell and other telco's imposed extreme, and often arbitrary, limits on innovation at the edges. Take a look at the 1956 US case regarding the Hush-a-Phone. (In that case AT&T tried to block the attachment of what was essentially a plastic hand that would be attached by the user to the mouthpiece of a telephone. At&T made wild claims that that would cause the telephone network to collapse and repairmen would blown off the top of telephone poles.) Then look at the Carterphone and MCI cases.

One of the hallmarks of the Internet is permissionless innovation at the edges. Clearly there are balances to be made, but we risk a balance that pushes too much control to the center.

Some decades ago I distilled this balance into a short formulation:

First Law of the Internet

+ Every person shall be free to use the Internet in any way that is privately beneficial without being publicly detrimental.

- The burden of demonstrating public detriment shall be on those who wish to prevent the private use.

- Such a demonstration shall require clear and convincing evidence of public detriment.

- The public detriment must be of such degree and extent as to justify the suppression of the private activity.

https://www.cavebear.com/old_cbblog/000059.html <https://www.cavebear.com/old_cbblog/000059.html>

--karl--