This kind of technocentric approch is interesting, because it's highlights the net neutrality issue and the seperation of the Internet and the GoogleNet. http://precursorblog.com/content/googles-engineering-takeover-internet-no-sl... Google's Engineering Takeover of the Internet -- No "slow" DNS needed on GooglesNet Submitted by Scott Cleland on Fri, 2009-12-04 10:54 As part of Google's previously announced plan to make the Web faster, Google announced yesterday a Google engineering alternative system to the Internet's current core, the Domain Name System or DNS. * Google believes that Google's new addressing system is faster and more secure than the current Internet addressing system, which is run by the independent Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) and which is essentially the Internet's de facto "phone book." This is a big deal. Google is essentially saying it can do a better faster job for the Internet than the current ICANN can. Listen to ICANN's self description: * "To reach another person on the Internet you have to type an address into your computer - a name or a number. That address has to be unique so computers know where to find each other. ICANN coordinates these unique identifiers across the world. Without that coordination we wouldn't have one global Internet. * ICANN was formed in 1998. It is a not-for-profit public-benefit corporation with participants from all over the world dedicated to keeping the Internet secure, stable and interoperable. It promotes competition and develops policy on the Internet’s unique identifiers. * ICANN doesn’t control content on the Internet." In stark contrast, Google's entire business is controlling how most content is discovered on the Internet -- so Google's lone wolf re-engineering project to "make the web faster" would represent a massive change in how the neutral Internet works -- tantamount to a type of non-neutral engineering takeover of the neutral Internet. This is not an isolated Google Internet re-engineering event. It is part of Google's grander vision/ambition to single-handedly re-make the global Internet allegedly faster and more secure, for everyone. * Readers of this blog appreciate that Google's Chrome browser also essentially replaces the DNS system by creating only one "Omnibox" search bar, by completely replacing the DNS Internet address bar at the top of the page. * I explained in this previous PrecursorBlog post that Google's Chrome browser completely replaces the neutral DNS address bar with Google's non-neutral search rankings, which forces everyone that types in a URL in Chrome, like www.brand.com, to not go to the DNS address that they requested first, but to get routed by the Google Chrome gatekeeper function to Google's search results page -- where Google can be first to monetize that page/traffic and the requested brand website may or may not get monetization seconds. Many may not know that how Google makes the search experience so fast is that Google literally makes a digital copy of all the literally trillion web pages in the world so that when you search for something you are searching Google's database copy of the Internet in Google's massive data centers, and not the Internet itself. Many also may not know that in just the last few years Google surprised most everyone in the world with how much new Internet infrastructure they have built and assembled for Google's use. As the recent Arbor Networks study showed, Google now carries more Internet traffic than any entity in the world. In sum, Google "making the web faster" is GoogleSpeak "code" for transferring Internet traffic off of the Internet and onto "GooglesNet" where Google can run it faster because it is all happening in their data centers and not on the global Internet itself. What relevance does all this have to an Open Internet, net neutrality, and the FCC's proposed Open internet regulations, which by the way effectively exempt Google from any openness, neutrality, or transparancy obligations? * In Google's announcement of its better DNS mousetrap Google makes the very bold claim that Google can make the Internet better and more neutral through Google's superior engineering: * "Validity: Google Public DNS complies with the DNS standards and gives the user the exact response his or her computer expects without performing any blocking, filtering, or redirection that may hamper a user's browsing experience." My question is the broader Internet community awake out there? * Does ICANN understand that Google is effectively aiming to replace ICANN without asking anyone for permission? * Does the FCC or any other open Internet regulation proponents understand that a very non-neutral Google is essentially implementing an incremental engineering takeover of the Internet -- all in the supposed name of making it more "neutral?"
This kind of technocentric approch is interesting, because it's highlights the net neutrality issue and the seperation of the Internet and the GoogleNet.
Google's Engineering Takeover of the Internet -- No "slow" DNS needed on GooglesNet
I must say, this is an impressively hysterical misrepresentation and overreaction to Google's providing what is no more and no less than yet another public DNS cache. If Google is taking over the net, so is OpenDNS and everyone else who deliberately or accidentally leaves his DNS cache open the the public. There are plenty of things about Google that one might object to, but this is just silly. R's, John
Google DNS is a big kick in the balls to ICANN. Now mind you Google DNS is crap. It's just plain old raw DNS - no bells or whistles like OpenDNS. In fact Google DNS looks like a rush job but a major political statement. the DNS wars continue .... http://bit.ly/5hUxJT cheers joe baptista 2009/12/7 Lutz Donnerhacke <lutz@thur.de>
This kind of technocentric approch is interesting, because it's highlights the net neutrality issue and the seperation of the Internet and the GoogleNet.
http://precursorblog.com/content/googles-engineering-takeover-internet-no-sl...
Google's Engineering Takeover of the Internet -- No "slow" DNS needed on GooglesNet
Submitted by Scott Cleland on Fri, 2009-12-04 10:54
As part of Google's previously announced plan to make the Web faster, Google announced yesterday a Google engineering alternative system to the Internet's current core, the Domain Name System or DNS.
* Google believes that Google's new addressing system is faster and more secure than the current Internet addressing system, which is run by the independent Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) and which is essentially the Internet's de facto "phone book."
This is a big deal. Google is essentially saying it can do a better faster job for the Internet than the current ICANN can. Listen to ICANN's self description:
* "To reach another person on the Internet you have to type an address into your computer - a name or a number. That address has to be unique so computers know where to find each other. ICANN coordinates these unique identifiers across the world. Without that coordination we wouldn't have one global Internet.
* ICANN was formed in 1998. It is a not-for-profit public-benefit corporation with participants from all over the world dedicated to keeping the Internet secure, stable and interoperable. It promotes competition and develops policy on the Internet’s unique identifiers.
* ICANN doesn’t control content on the Internet."
In stark contrast, Google's entire business is controlling how most content is discovered on the Internet -- so Google's lone wolf re-engineering project to "make the web faster" would represent a massive change in how the neutral Internet works -- tantamount to a type of non-neutral engineering takeover of the neutral Internet.
This is not an isolated Google Internet re-engineering event. It is part of Google's grander vision/ambition to single-handedly re-make the global Internet allegedly faster and more secure, for everyone.
* Readers of this blog appreciate that Google's Chrome browser also essentially replaces the DNS system by creating only one "Omnibox" search bar, by completely replacing the DNS Internet address bar at the top of the page.
* I explained in this previous PrecursorBlog post that Google's Chrome browser completely replaces the neutral DNS address bar with Google's non-neutral search rankings, which forces everyone that types in a URL in Chrome, like www.brand.com, to not go to the DNS address that they requested first, but to get routed by the Google Chrome gatekeeper function to Google's search results page -- where Google can be first to monetize that page/traffic and the requested brand website may or may not get monetization seconds.
Many may not know that how Google makes the search experience so fast is that Google literally makes a digital copy of all the literally trillion web pages in the world so that when you search for something you are searching Google's database copy of the Internet in Google's massive data centers, and not the Internet itself.
Many also may not know that in just the last few years Google surprised most everyone in the world with how much new Internet infrastructure they have built and assembled for Google's use. As the recent Arbor Networks study showed, Google now carries more Internet traffic than any entity in the world.
In sum, Google "making the web faster" is GoogleSpeak "code" for transferring Internet traffic off of the Internet and onto "GooglesNet" where Google can run it faster because it is all happening in their data centers and not on the global Internet itself.
What relevance does all this have to an Open Internet, net neutrality, and the FCC's proposed Open internet regulations, which by the way effectively exempt Google from any openness, neutrality, or transparancy obligations?
* In Google's announcement of its better DNS mousetrap Google makes the very bold claim that Google can make the Internet better and more neutral through Google's superior engineering:
* "Validity: Google Public DNS complies with the DNS standards and gives the user the exact response his or her computer expects without performing any blocking, filtering, or redirection that may hamper a user's browsing experience."
My question is the broader Internet community awake out there?
* Does ICANN understand that Google is effectively aiming to replace ICANN without asking anyone for permission?
* Does the FCC or any other open Internet regulation proponents understand that a very non-neutral Google is essentially implementing an incremental engineering takeover of the Internet -- all in the supposed name of making it more "neutral?"
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org
http://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large_atlarge-lists.icann...
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org
-- Joe Baptista www.publicroot.org PublicRoot Consortium ---------------------------------------------------------------- The future of the Internet is Open, Transparent, Inclusive, Representative & Accountable to the Internet community @large. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Office: +1 (360) 526-6077 (extension 052) Fax: +1 (509) 479-0084 Personal: http://baptista.cynikal.net/
http://precursorblog.com/content/googles-engineering-takeover-internet-no-sl...
Complete lack of knowledge about ICANN and what Google is doing. Don't forget Google is a "for profit" corp, ICANN is "non profit" so whatever it makes it has to waste ... I mean spend. My .02 Jorge
Lutz, 2009/12/7 Lutz Donnerhacke <lutz@thur.de>:
This kind of technocentric approch is interesting, because it's highlights the net neutrality issue and the seperation of the Internet and the GoogleNet.
http://precursorblog.com/content/googles-engineering-takeover-internet-no-sl...
This guy runs an anti-Net Neutrality org apparently funded by broadband telecom, cable, and wireless companies. -- Cheers, McTim "A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A route indicates how we get there." Jon Postel
Excuse me but this is a bunch of crap. 1) Replacing the location bar with a search bar does not affect ICANN or DNS one iota. 2) Google's DNS service is just what it says it is, a plain and vanilla DNS service. joly 2009/12/7 Lutz Donnerhacke <lutz@thur.de>
* Does ICANN understand that Google is effectively aiming to replace ICANN without asking anyone for permission?
* Does the FCC or any other open Internet regulation proponents understand that a very non-neutral Google is essentially implementing an incremental engineering takeover of the Internet -- all in the supposed name of making it more "neutral?"
-- --------------------------------------------------------------- Joly MacFie 917 442 8665 Skype:punkcast WWWhatsup NYC - http://wwwhatsup.com http://pinstand.com - http://punkcast.com ---------------------------------------------------------------
Lutz Donnerhacke wrote, On 7/12/09 21:29:
This kind of technocentric approch is interesting, because it's highlights the net neutrality issue and the seperation of the Internet and the GoogleNet.
http://precursorblog.com/content/googles-engineering-takeover-internet-no-sl...
As others said, this article is a bunch of crap. Actually, Google is now offering a plain vanilla DNS service that ISPs are more and more unwilling to offer. ISPs and folks at OpnDNS love to make their DNS servers lie. At least, Google returns an NXDOMAIN for failed queries. They respect TTLs, too, unlike some ISP resolvers. The only thing that is questionable in Google DNS is that they are pre-fetching DNS records before they expire so they are always in their cache. With DNSSEC, this is probably bad. Patrick -- Patrick Vande Walle Blog: http://patrick.vande-walle.eu Twitter: http://twitter.vande-walle.eu facebook: http://facebook.vande-walle.eu
* Patrick Vande Walle wrote:
Lutz Donnerhacke wrote, On 7/12/09 21:29:
This kind of technocentric approch is interesting, because it's highlights the net neutrality issue and the seperation of the Internet and the GoogleNet.
As others said, this article is a bunch of crap. Actually, Google is now offering a plain vanilla DNS service that ISPs are more and more unwilling to offer. ISPs and folks at OpnDNS love to make their DNS servers lie. At least, Google returns an NXDOMAIN for failed queries. They respect TTLs, too, unlike some ISP resolvers.
I do not want to discuss technical issues here. Google DNS is doing right. I'd like to mention the political implications. Google offers DNS for commercial reasons. NXDOMAIN rewriting is done by ISPs for obtaining a bit of the money usually payed to Google alone. So Google DNS ensures the money flow as it is. Google DNS gives Google the opportunity to register trends very early, even if the pages are not yet spidered. I do not imply, that those ISP nor Google are "allowed" to do so. My personal impression is to avoid advertising at all. The quoted article is interesting, because it draws the picture a bit more into the future: A separate overlay network named Google. You might consider this FUD, but my fear comes from the Dejanews archive, which was altrustically provided by Google for years. Now we are facing the problems, that Google Groups are a supernet to the Usenet. Google extended the Usenet by avoiding the group creation process at all. They simply offer additional groups at their own side. Consider the same mechanism for DNS ... We will receive an other INAIC, but this time it will work. BTW: INAIC also first spidered, before offering "services": whois -h whois.inaic.net bofh
The only thing that is questionable in Google DNS is that they are pre-fetching DNS records before they expire so they are always in their cache. With DNSSEC, this is probably bad.
That's not a problem at all. (Spreading FUD, this is only to keep the GoogleNet Database up to date, as they are doing it for the web pages.) There are technical problems with amplification attacks. I expect up to 30Gbps. https://lists.dns-oarc.net/pipermail/dns-operations/2009-December/004673.htm... And there are serve privacy issues in conjuntion with Chrome. Chrome prefetches the FQDN for those links, the mouse is hovered on. This way Google is able to trace how a user works with a web page. Of course, if Chrome would record the user actions directly and send them to home, everybody will cry loud.
There are technical problems with amplification attacks. I expect up to 30Gbps. https://lists.dns-oarc.net/pipermail/dns-operations/2009-December/004673.htm...
Don't know where you get your numbers from, but I have not seen more than 50 pre-fetch queries starting up Chrome normally with 6-8 tabs (after a mach reboot), of which ~30 are queries for "Google properties" like groups.google.com.
And there are serve privacy issues in conjuntion with Chrome. Chrome prefetches the FQDN for those links, the mouse is hovered on. This way Google is able to trace how a user works with a web page. Of course, if Chrome would record the user actions directly and send them to home, everybody will cry loud.
You really need an extra large tin hat. As you may know the implementation is open source and available to any other software vendors to do the same and other folks to actually see the code to determine what it does and what it does not. Also as Google stated on the public announcement while on the temporary logs they have your IP address on the permanent logs they don't keep any personally identifiable information. (http://code.google.com/speed/public-dns/privacy.html) Even with the IP address if you are behind NAT or a firewall, as you mentioned Google has to expect on dns-ops, the same source IP address may be used for dozens or hundreds of users and Google has no way to know who is doing which query. I'm sure that sooner or later Google will figure how to take advantage and monetize whatever statistics they collect, and they are extremely smart and good doing so. A big difference between Google and what some ISPs have been doing to put more coins in the coffer is that Google is a very dynamic, smart and interesting company driven by long term vision not short term greed. The real message and political implications from this community should be: "Stop screwing up with the DNS". My .02 Jorge
2009/12/8 Lutz Donnerhacke <lutz@thur.de>
Consider the same mechanism for DNS ... We will receive an other INAIC, but this time it will work. BTW: INAIC also first spidered, before offering "services": whois -h whois.inaic.net bofh
No - that is not a correct claim. INAIC never spidered anything. The data contained in INAIC whois prior to 2003 all comes from the PacificRoot - now defunct. Also INAIC did work. INAIC was providing root resolution to most of Europe and all of Turkey and marketing had many other countries in the pipe. I remember hearing reports of ICANN calling all our major clients asking them not to use us. No one paid ICANN much attention on that. INAIC failed because I pulled the plug when I went public and blew the whistle. The organization was corrupt - when I went over to investigate I found out we had people involved with criminal records, some were embezzling money, committing tax fraud and money laundering just to mention a few things I found distasteful with respect to the organization. After I pulled the plug the whole thing went to hell - this communication although a one sided presentation still gives some background on it. But I should state the writer - Marty van Veluw was also very much involved in the various financial irregularities. http://bit.ly/7PpFCE cheers joe baptista
participants (7)
-
Joe Baptista -
John R. Levine -
Joly MacFie -
Jorge Amodio -
Lutz Donnerhacke -
McTim -
Patrick Vande Walle