Re: [At-Large] ATLASIII Participation
Carlton, Greg beat me to it, but it is not an issue of travel as a "benefit". It is a resource, and all we are saying is that if we are to allocate that resource to a specific person, then we expect that it will be well used. The issue of electing/selecting someone for a position and then not having them deliver quite a different one, although again there *may* be travel funding involved. And yes, if we have someone who does not deliver and then select them again, there is a problem, and one I think that we need to address, but that sadly, many others feel that we should not, and simply heed the will of the electors who seem to at times reward the behaviour that some of us would like to punish (whether we have the tools or not). As you or someone said in a previous message, travel is a tool that facilitates volunteer contributions, nothing more or less. But it is a tool constrained by resources available and we should ALWAYS be paying attention to using our resources in a way that benefits At-Large and ICANN. That applies to travel, just as it applies to the extremely valuable resource of time donated (ie at no monetary cost to us or ICANN) by our volunteers. Neither should be squandered. Alan At 09/07/2019 10:07 PM, Carlton Samuels wrote: Hi Roberto: Funny enough, we are closer to total agreement than you imagine. You see, your second paragraph got to the heart of the issue. What to do when the job is not done? My response is to tell the same persons to their face that they did not contribute much. And, message the folks who elect them as representative as much. It's like electing a common fool for president and we blame the fool and not the voters who pulled the lever for the fool. In my corner of empire we tend to elect crooks, never fools. So we know what is our problem. I'm suggesting we can fix those problems without dangling travel or other funding as benefits to be removed as punishment. Especially if it devalues your efforts and mine. I have seen volunteers struggle to assimilate and articulate a position on an issue. I have seen so-called tourist travelers mature and make useful contributions. It is a crap shoot. So, I want to reinforce the fact that not everybody is interested in every topic the At-Large gets all bothered about. Indeed, I have seen a few that IMHO, isn't worth a bucket of warm spit to the end user that we allegedly represent in names and numbers policy matters. Not everybody need be interested in every topic to be a volunteer. Whosoever will may come. And, we can help them find their way in....or out. Best Carlton On Tue, 9 Jul 2019, 5:47 pm Roberto Gaetano, < roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com<mailto:roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com>> wrote: Hi Carlton. As usual, we agree on some things and we disagree on other. I fully support your view that travel, in particular when tickets are provided at the lowest possible cost - which implies also the lowest level of comfort and service - is not a benefit but "the tool that it is to get a job done”. Where we disagree is what to do if and when the job is not done. IMHO, ALAC does not have just the option, but the duty, to analyse whether the limited funds should be allocated in a different way to maximise the result. That is, as you correctly put, "to get a job done”. Incidentally, if ALAC does not monitor the fund allocation and show that there is no waste, ICANN will do. And I personally don’t like at all this outcome. But since I am well-known for making examples that are a bit extreme, and sometimes drive people mad, please allow me to be up to my reputation and mention this case. These days in Italy there are a couple of cases of public administrations, including a public hospital, where employees have been caught being repeatedly absent from work while colleagues were clocking them in and out. Am I the only one who sees similarities? Cheers, Roberto On 09.07.2019, at 23:14, Carlton Samuels < carlton.samuels@gmail.com<mailto:carlton.samuels@gmail.com>> wrote: Dear John: I know you mean well. But I must register my profound and utter disagreement with you here. And, on principle. At-Large representatives are volunteers. Largely. I am seethe at this indignity that a measure of my voluntarism connects to me flying somewhere to volunteer my time, my energy, my intellectual capital and yes, my labour, all as public goods. I would not wish to be so judged. And what is proposed is nothing but an episode of the slave's torment; doing what he thinks would appease his master by providing the hog grease for the leather whip that stipes his own back. I came to this opposition from bitter experience. It started when I was the only elected LACRALO official. And in a period when travel was dangled as a benefit to volunteers. I couldn't give a tinker's damn since by that time I had already racked up 2 million plus airmiles. And traveling steerage class is not my idea of a fun time. In that period of time, LACRALO arguably provided the most egregious examples of the ICANN tourist traveler. And I suffered the slings of my northern metropolitan colleagues for vehemently opposing sanctions on the then LACRALO ALAC representatives. [I am ever grateful to Evan for supporting me on principle!] My argument was those persons behaved badly as individuals. I told them so. One has hated me to this day. But inspite of him, I adamantly refused to support travel sanctions against them. That action reinforces that rather louche idea that travel is a benefit rather than the tool that it is to get a job done. And to hypothecate the tool as security for work to be done seems immoral to me. Value is assigned my time and intellectual capital by others; I sell them for fee. I got home less than 2 hours ago from Suriname. Most in this thread would likely not even know where that is. it is a hump to get to. And, somebody paid me for that. As a volunteer, my time, intellectual capital and my own coin have been placed in trust and in the service of the At-Large. An airplane ticket in steerage does not begin to compensate me as volunteer. It is no benefit to me or for me. It is rude and crude to suggest, must less legislate, that it is. My position has not changed in these many years because the same response offends reason and conscience. It is for the At-Large constituents to pick representatives. And this seemingly Pavlovian response proffered is and remains a bad policy idea. It is inimical to the spirit of volutarism - real voluntarism! - that premises the At-Large engagement. Best, -Carlton ============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround ============================= On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 9:16 AM John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com<mailto:jlaprise@gmail.com>> wrote: I would like us all to consider consequences for ATLASIII participants who travel but do not participate (excepting reasons of illness etc). This is a serious, professional responsibility and should be treated as such. For a start, I would suggest that participants who fail to participate should be ineligible for funding and elections for 3 years. I look forward to conversation on this topic leading to action by the ALAC. Sent from my Pixel 3XL John Laprise, Ph.D. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org<mailto:At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org<http://atlarge.icann.org/> _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org<mailto:At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org<http://atlarge.icann.org/> _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Alan: Some matters will get the 'meh' and no more out of me. And I am moved to see the mea culpa; 'it is not an issue of travel as benefit'. But I cannot help being bemused to see the pronouncements from persons you and I know never said squat when the "travel tourists" were to be officially condemned. So be it. You've been around for longer than I have. But what I know for sure is for as long as I have been around, since 2006, everytime the matter of travel funding is up for mention, 'travel as benefit' rears its ugly head! I believe I have before now co-related this to a strategem used to characterise social security funding in the United States by politicians of a certain stripe to explain my objection. You are my institutional memory for the At-Large. And I know you know that at one time traveling to ICANN meetings was promoted as a benefit for *participation*. This is not a trivial distinction. There is a history to it. And that is the genesis of travel funding as benefit. You and I have done a lot of travel in our professional existence. And you know I have always objected to that chracterisation if for no other reason than the lack of accounting, in context, for our indivudual contributions to the names and numbers policy development enterprise. Here's my closeout. Any response to the problem of the "tourist traveler" that presents travel funding as a benefit to be traded undermines the At-Large capacity and capability to contribute to names and numbers policy development. This is my eternal objection. And I am unanimous on that. Best, -Carlton ============================== *Carlton A Samuels* *Mobile: 876-818-1799Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* ============================= On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 9:45 PM Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> wrote:
Carlton, Greg beat me to it, but it is not an issue of travel as a "benefit". It is a resource, and all we are saying is that if we are to allocate that resource to a specific person, then we expect that it will be well used.
The issue of electing/selecting someone for a position and then not having them deliver quite a different one, although again there *may* be travel funding involved. And yes, if we have someone who does not deliver and then select them again, there is a problem, and one I think that we need to address, but that sadly, many others feel that we should not, and simply heed the will of the electors who seem to at times reward the behaviour that some of us would like to punish (whether we have the tools or not).
As you or someone said in a previous message, travel is a tool that facilitates volunteer contributions, nothing more or less. But it is a tool constrained by resources available and we should ALWAYS be paying attention to using our resources in a way that benefits At-Large and ICANN. That applies to travel, just as it applies to the extremely valuable resource of time donated (ie at no monetary cost to us or ICANN) by our volunteers. Neither should be squandered.
Alan
At 09/07/2019 10:07 PM, Carlton Samuels wrote:
Hi Roberto: Funny enough, we are closer to total agreement than you imagine.
You see, your second paragraph got to the heart of the issue. What to do when the job is not done?
My response is to tell the same persons to their face that they did not contribute much. And, message the folks who elect them as representative as much.
It's like electing a common fool for president and we blame the fool and not the voters who pulled the lever for the fool. In my corner of empire we tend to elect crooks, never fools. So we know what is our problem.
I'm suggesting we can fix those problems without dangling travel or other funding as benefits to be removed as punishment. Especially if it devalues your efforts and mine.
I have seen volunteers struggle to assimilate and articulate a position on an issue. I have seen so-called tourist travelers mature and make useful contributions. It is a crap shoot.
So, I want to reinforce the fact that not everybody is interested in every topic the At-Large gets all bothered about. Indeed, I have seen a few that IMHO, isn't worth a bucket of warm spit to the end user that we allegedly represent in names and numbers policy matters.
Not everybody need be interested in every topic to be a volunteer. Whosoever will may come. And, we can help them find their way in....or out.
Best Carlton
On Tue, 9 Jul 2019, 5:47 pm Roberto Gaetano, < roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com> wrote: Hi Carlton. As usual, we agree on some things and we disagree on other. I fully support your view that travel, in particular when tickets are provided at the lowest possible cost - which implies also the lowest level of comfort and service - is not a benefit but "the tool that it is to get a job done†. Where we disagree is what to do if and when the job is not done. IMHO, ALAC does not have just the option, but the duty, to analyse whether the limited funds should be allocated in a different way to maximise the result. That is, as you correctly put, "to get a job done†. Incidentally, if ALAC does not monitor the fund allocation and show that there is no waste, ICANN will do. And I personally don’t like at all this outcome. But since I am well-known for making examples that are a bit extreme, and sometimes drive people mad, please allow me to be up to my reputation and mention this case. These days in Italy there are a couple of cases of public administrations, including a public hospital, where employees have been caught being repeatedly absent from work while colleagues were clocking them in and out. Am I the only one who sees similarities? Cheers, Roberto
On 09.07.2019, at 23:14, Carlton Samuels < carlton.samuels@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear John: I know you mean well. But I must register my profound and utter disagreement with you here. And, on principle.
At-Large representatives are volunteers. Largely.
I am seethe at this indignity that a measure of my voluntarism connects to me flying somewhere to volunteer my time, my energy, my intellectual capital and yes, my labour, all as public goods.
I would not wish to be so judged. And what is proposed is nothing but an episode of the slave's torment; doing what he thinks would appease his master by providing the hog grease for the leather whip that stipes his own back.
I came to this opposition from bitter experience. It started when I was the only elected LACRALO official. And in a period when travel was dangled as a benefit to volunteers. I couldn't give a tinker's damn since by that time I had already racked up 2 million plus airmiles. And traveling steerage class is not my idea of a fun time.
In that period of time, LACRALO arguably provided the most egregious examples of the ICANN tourist traveler. And I suffered the slings of my northern metropolitan colleagues for vehemently opposing sanctions on the then LACRALO ALAC representatives. [I am ever grateful to Evan for supporting me on principle!] My argument was those persons behaved badly as individuals. I told them so. One has hated me to this day. But inspite of him, I adamantly refused to support travel sanctions against them. That action reinforces that rather louche idea that travel is a benefit rather than the tool that it is to get a job done. And to hypothecate the tool as security for work to be done seems immoral to me.
Value is assigned my time and intellectual capital by others; I sell them for fee. I got home less than 2 hours ago from Suriname. Most in this thread would likely not even know where that is. it is a hump to get to. And, somebody paid me for that.
As a volunteer, my time, intellectual capital and my own coin have been placed in trust and in the service of the At-Large. An airplane ticket in steerage does not begin to compensate me as volunteer. It is no benefit to me or for me. It is rude and crude to suggest, must less legislate, that it is.
My position has not changed in these many years because the same response offends reason and conscience. It is for the At-Large constituents to pick representatives. And this seemingly Pavlovian response proffered is and remains a bad policy idea. It is inimical to the spirit of volutarism - real voluntarism! - that premises the At-Large engagement.
Best, -Carlton
============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround =============================
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 9:16 AM John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> wrote: I would like us all to consider consequences for ATLASIII participants who travel but do not participate (excepting reasons of illness etc). This is a serious, professional responsibility and should be treated as such.
For a start, I would suggest that participants who fail to participate should be ineligible for funding and elections for 3 years.
I look forward to conversation on this topic leading to action by the ALAC.
Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
<<<Here's my closeout. Any response to the problem of the "tourist traveler" that presents travel funding as a benefit to be traded undermines the At-Large capacity and capability to contribute to names and numbers policy development.>>
couldn't agree more with Sir Carlton's closeout!!!! and it is based on the effectiveness and timelines of policy contributions that the specific weight of ALAC can be measured.
Carlos Raul Gutierrez
in this particular case of ATLAS III the previous selection, as the word states, eliminated some members that would like to participate. Hence the responsibility of those going is even high than on previous meetings. The fact we are volunteers ( so free to not go) do not eliminate the responsibility we have with all others not allowed to participate. best to all Vanda Scartezini Polo Consultores Associados Av. Paulista 1159, cj 1004 01311-200- Sao Paulo, SP, Brazil Land Line: +55 11 3266.6253 Mobile: + 55 11 98181.1464 Sorry for any typos. From: At-Large <at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> on behalf of Carlton Samuels <carlton.samuels@gmail.com> Date: Wednesday, July 10, 2019 at 12:32 To: 'At-Large Worldwide' <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org>, Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca>, Greg Shatan <greg@isoc-ny.org> Subject: [At-Large] Fwd: ATLASIII Participation Alan: Some matters will get the 'meh' and no more out of me. And I am moved to see the mea culpa; 'it is not an issue of travel as benefit'. But I cannot help being bemused to see the pronouncements from persons you and I know never said squat when the "travel tourists" were to be officially condemned. So be it. You've been around for longer than I have. But what I know for sure is for as long as I have been around, since 2006, everytime the matter of travel funding is up for mention, 'travel as benefit' rears its ugly head! I believe I have before now co-related this to a strategem used to characterise social security funding in the United States by politicians of a certain stripe to explain my objection. You are my institutional memory for the At-Large. And I know you know that at one time traveling to ICANN meetings was promoted as a benefit for participation. This is not a trivial distinction. There is a history to it. And that is the genesis of travel funding as benefit. You and I have done a lot of travel in our professional existence. And you know I have always objected to that chracterisation if for no other reason than the lack of accounting, in context, for our indivudual contributions to the names and numbers policy development enterprise. Here's my closeout. Any response to the problem of the "tourist traveler" that presents travel funding as a benefit to be traded undermines the At-Large capacity and capability to contribute to names and numbers policy development. This is my eternal objection. And I am unanimous on that. Best, -Carlton ============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround ============================= On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 9:45 PM Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca<mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca>> wrote: Carlton, Greg beat me to it, but it is not an issue of travel as a "benefit". It is a resource, and all we are saying is that if we are to allocate that resource to a specific person, then we expect that it will be well used. The issue of electing/selecting someone for a position and then not having them deliver quite a different one, although again there *may* be travel funding involved. And yes, if we have someone who does not deliver and then select them again, there is a problem, and one I think that we need to address, but that sadly, many others feel that we should not, and simply heed the will of the electors who seem to at times reward the behaviour that some of us would like to punish (whether we have the tools or not). As you or someone said in a previous message, travel is a tool that facilitates volunteer contributions, nothing more or less. But it is a tool constrained by resources available and we should ALWAYS be paying attention to using our resources in a way that benefits At-Large and ICANN. That applies to travel, just as it applies to the extremely valuable resource of time donated (ie at no monetary cost to us or ICANN) by our volunteers. Neither should be squandered. Alan At 09/07/2019 10:07 PM, Carlton Samuels wrote: Hi Roberto: Funny enough, we are closer to total agreement than you imagine. You see, your second paragraph got to the heart of the issue. What to do when the job is not done? My response is to tell the same persons to their face that they did not contribute much. And, message the folks who elect them as representative as much. It's like electing a common fool for president and we blame the fool and not the voters who pulled the lever for the fool. In my corner of empire we tend to elect crooks, never fools. So we know what is our problem. I'm suggesting we can fix those problems without dangling travel or other funding as benefits to be removed as punishment. Especially if it devalues your efforts and mine. I have seen volunteers struggle to assimilate and articulate a position on an issue. I have seen so-called tourist travelers mature and make useful contributions. It is a crap shoot. So, I want to reinforce the fact that not everybody is interested in every topic the At-Large gets all bothered about. Indeed, I have seen a few that IMHO, isn't worth a bucket of warm spit to the end user that we allegedly represent in names and numbers policy matters. Not everybody need be interested in every topic to be a volunteer. Whosoever will may come. And, we can help them find their way in....or out. Best Carlton On Tue, 9 Jul 2019, 5:47 pm Roberto Gaetano, < roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com<mailto:roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com>> wrote: Hi Carlton. As usual, we agree on some things and we disagree on other. I fully support your view that travel, in particular when tickets are provided at the lowest possible cost - which implies also the lowest level of comfort and service - is not a benefit but "the tool that it is to get a job done†. Where we disagree is what to do if and when the job is not done. IMHO, ALAC does not have just the option, but the duty, to analyse whether the limited funds should be allocated in a different way to maximise the result. That is, as you correctly put, "to get a job done†. Incidentally, if ALAC does not monitor the fund allocation and show that there is no waste, ICANN will do. And I personally don’t like at all this outcome. But since I am well-known for making examples that are a bit extreme, and sometimes drive people mad, please allow me to be up to my reputation and mention this case. These days in Italy there are a couple of cases of public administrations, including a public hospital, where employees have been caught being repeatedly absent from work while colleagues were clocking them in and out. Am I the only one who sees similarities? Cheers, Roberto On 09.07.2019, at 23:14, Carlton Samuels < carlton.samuels@gmail.com<mailto:carlton.samuels@gmail.com>> wrote: Dear John: I know you mean well. But I must register my profound and utter disagreement with you here. And, on principle. At-Large representatives are volunteers. Largely. I am seethe at this indignity that a measure of my voluntarism connects to me flying somewhere to volunteer my time, my energy, my intellectual capital and yes, my labour, all as public goods. I would not wish to be so judged. And what is proposed is nothing but an episode of the slave's torment; doing what he thinks would appease his master by providing the hog grease for the leather whip that stipes his own back. I came to this opposition from bitter experience. It started when I was the only elected LACRALO official. And in a period when travel was dangled as a benefit to volunteers. I couldn't give a tinker's damn since by that time I had already racked up 2 million plus airmiles. And traveling steerage class is not my idea of a fun time. In that period of time, LACRALO arguably provided the most egregious examples of the ICANN tourist traveler. And I suffered the slings of my northern metropolitan colleagues for vehemently opposing sanctions on the then LACRALO ALAC representatives. [I am ever grateful to Evan for supporting me on principle!] My argument was those persons behaved badly as individuals. I told them so. One has hated me to this day. But inspite of him, I adamantly refused to support travel sanctions against them. That action reinforces that rather louche idea that travel is a benefit rather than the tool that it is to get a job done. And to hypothecate the tool as security for work to be done seems immoral to me. Value is assigned my time and intellectual capital by others; I sell them for fee. I got home less than 2 hours ago from Suriname. Most in this thread would likely not even know where that is. it is a hump to get to. And, somebody paid me for that. As a volunteer, my time, intellectual capital and my own coin have been placed in trust and in the service of the At-Large. An airplane ticket in steerage does not begin to compensate me as volunteer. It is no benefit to me or for me. It is rude and crude to suggest, must less legislate, that it is. My position has not changed in these many years because the same response offends reason and conscience. It is for the At-Large constituents to pick representatives. And this seemingly Pavlovian response proffered is and remains a bad policy idea. It is inimical to the spirit of volutarism - real voluntarism! - that premises the At-Large engagement. Best, -Carlton ============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround ============================= On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 9:16 AM John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com<mailto:jlaprise@gmail.com>> wrote: I would like us all to consider consequences for ATLASIII participants who travel but do not participate (excepting reasons of illness etc). This is a serious, professional responsibility and should be treated as such. For a start, I would suggest that participants who fail to participate should be ineligible for funding and elections for 3 years. I look forward to conversation on this topic leading to action by the ALAC. Sent from my Pixel 3XL John Laprise, Ph.D. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org<mailto:At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org<http://atlarge.icann.org/> _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org<mailto:At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org<mailto:At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org<http://atlarge.icann.org/> _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Having been rejected from participating because I would have been such a tourist, I have no comment.
Hi Carlos, Thanks for the good words. Yes, I would be able to get to Montreal by train. I know many of the good hotels and restaurants, maybe even some that Alan doesn't know :-). In fact, only two people from NARALO have been approved and they must be new since don't know them. I may still make it there due to an invitation to participate at NASIG (thanks Glenn!). But it seems regrettable that the committee concluded that one of the co-chairs of ATLAS 1 (and indeed one of the creators and advocates of the ATLAS concept itself) would not be of value at ATLAS 3. I wonder who else who may have been of value to one of ALAC's most critical events -- ever -- has been left behind because of some dumb regulation. - Evan On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 at 13:24, Carlos Raul Gutierrez <carlosraul@gutierrez.se> wrote:
Sorry to hear that Evan. I thought you live close by and would have been a better cost for the buck, at lower Co2 emissions than myself.
Carlos
Hi Judith. Yes, I applied before the deadline. I committed to take the "how does ICANN work" courses but apparently didn't finish them in time. So apparently I have not sufficiently demonstrated that I understand how ALAC operates within ICANN. (BTW, thouse ICANN learn courses are all aimed at registrants' PoV -- they miss much that is important to end users -- ie, At-Large. But, according to the selection committee, I don't know enough about this kind of thing.) - Evan On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 at 13:28, Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com> wrote:
HI Evan,
Did you apply? I was not on the evaluating team but as I understand it there were very few applications from NARALO
Best,
Judith
_________________________________________________________________________ Judith Hellerstein, Founder & CEO Hellerstein & Associates 3001 Veazey Terrace NW, Washington DC 20008 Phone: (202) 362-5139 Skype ID: judithhellerstein Mobile/Whats app: +1202-333-6517 E-mail: Judith@jhellerstein.com Website: www.jhellerstein.com Linked In: www.linkedin.com/in/jhellerstein/ Opening Telecom & Technology Opportunities Worldwide
On 7/11/2019 1:19 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote:
Having been rejected from participating because I would have been such a tourist, I have no comment.
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing listAt-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.orghttps://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
-- Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada @evanleibovitch or @el56
Hi Evan, Simply put, it wasn't about you. The program committee, ALAC and the selection committee agreed that participation in the webinars was a hard requirement. Full stop. Making exceptions would have opened a can of worms we decided to leave sealed, for better or worse. Sent from my Pixel 3XL John Laprise, Ph.D. On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 12:49 PM Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org> wrote:
Hi Judith.
Yes, I applied before the deadline. I committed to take the "how does ICANN work" courses but apparently didn't finish them in time. So apparently I have not sufficiently demonstrated that I understand how ALAC operates within ICANN. (BTW, thouse ICANN learn courses are all aimed at registrants' PoV -- they miss much that is important to end users -- ie, At-Large. But, according to the selection committee, I don't know enough about this kind of thing.)
- Evan
On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 at 13:28, Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com> wrote:
HI Evan,
Did you apply? I was not on the evaluating team but as I understand it there were very few applications from NARALO
Best,
Judith
_________________________________________________________________________ Judith Hellerstein, Founder & CEO Hellerstein & Associates 3001 Veazey Terrace NW, Washington DC 20008 Phone: (202) 362-5139 Skype ID: judithhellerstein Mobile/Whats app: +1202-333-6517 E-mail: Judith@jhellerstein.com Website: www.jhellerstein.com Linked In: www.linkedin.com/in/jhellerstein/ Opening Telecom & Technology Opportunities Worldwide
On 7/11/2019 1:19 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote:
Having been rejected from participating because I would have been such a tourist, I have no comment.
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing listAt-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.orghttps://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
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-- Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada @evanleibovitch or @el56 _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Dear John, Please, do not forget that webinars were an alternative of online courses. Regards Enviado desde mi iPhone El 11-07-2019, a la(s) 13:55, John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> escribió:
Hi Evan,
Simply put, it wasn't about you.
The program committee, ALAC and the selection committee agreed that participation in the webinars was a hard requirement. Full stop.
Making exceptions would have opened a can of worms we decided to leave sealed, for better or worse.
Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D.
On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 12:49 PM Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org> wrote: Hi Judith.
Yes, I applied before the deadline. I committed to take the "how does ICANN work" courses but apparently didn't finish them in time. So apparently I have not sufficiently demonstrated that I understand how ALAC operates within ICANN. (BTW, thouse ICANN learn courses are all aimed at registrants' PoV -- they miss much that is important to end users -- ie, At-Large. But, according to the selection committee, I don't know enough about this kind of thing.)
- Evan
On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 at 13:28, Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com> wrote: HI Evan,
Did you apply? I was not on the evaluating team but as I understand it there were very few applications from NARALO
Best,
Judith
_________________________________________________________________________ Judith Hellerstein, Founder & CEO Hellerstein & Associates 3001 Veazey Terrace NW, Washington DC 20008 Phone: (202) 362-5139 Skype ID: judithhellerstein Mobile/Whats app: +1202-333-6517 E-mail: Judith@jhellerstein.com Website: www.jhellerstein.com Linked In: www.linkedin.com/in/jhellerstein/ Opening Telecom & Technology Opportunities Worldwide
On 7/11/2019 1:19 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote: Having been rejected from participating because I would have been such a tourist, I have no comment.
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
-- Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada @evanleibovitch or @el56 _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Indeed On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 1:01 PM Humberto Carrasco <hcarrasco@cmsz.cl> wrote:
Dear John,
Please, do not forget that webinars were an alternative of online courses.
Regards
Enviado desde mi iPhone
El 11-07-2019, a la(s) 13:55, John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> escribió:
Hi Evan,
Simply put, it wasn't about you.
The program committee, ALAC and the selection committee agreed that participation in the webinars was a hard requirement. Full stop.
Making exceptions would have opened a can of worms we decided to leave sealed, for better or worse.
Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D.
On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 12:49 PM Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org> wrote:
Hi Judith.
Yes, I applied before the deadline. I committed to take the "how does ICANN work" courses but apparently didn't finish them in time. So apparently I have not sufficiently demonstrated that I understand how ALAC operates within ICANN. (BTW, thouse ICANN learn courses are all aimed at registrants' PoV -- they miss much that is important to end users -- ie, At-Large. But, according to the selection committee, I don't know enough about this kind of thing.)
- Evan
On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 at 13:28, Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com> wrote:
HI Evan,
Did you apply? I was not on the evaluating team but as I understand it there were very few applications from NARALO
Best,
Judith
_________________________________________________________________________ Judith Hellerstein, Founder & CEO Hellerstein & Associates 3001 Veazey Terrace NW, Washington DC 20008 Phone: (202) 362-5139 Skype ID: judithhellerstein Mobile/Whats app: +1202-333-6517 E-mail: Judith@jhellerstein.com Website: www.jhellerstein.com Linked In: www.linkedin.com/in/jhellerstein/ Opening Telecom & Technology Opportunities Worldwide
On 7/11/2019 1:19 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote:
Having been rejected from participating because I would have been such a tourist, I have no comment.
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing listAt-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.orghttps://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
-- Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada @evanleibovitch or @el56 _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Being in ICANN for around 20 years and have been using the e-learning courses for long time in capacitation to others, I was one that felt no real need to attend all courses or webinar. But I did all those, because rules in a worldwide selection are there to be followed, no exception shall be made if there was a selection criteria. I am sorry not to have well prepared people attending ATLAS III, but I see no point in complain against the rules clearer stated before the beginning of the process. best to all Vanda Scartezini Polo Consultores Associados Av. Paulista 1159, cj 1004 01311-200- Sao Paulo, SP, Brazil Land Line: +55 11 3266.6253 Mobile: + 55 11 98181.1464 Sorry for any typos. From: At-Large <at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> on behalf of John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> Date: Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 15:02 To: Humberto Carrasco <hcarrasco@cmsz.cl> Cc: 'At-Large Worldwide' <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Subject: Re: [At-Large] Fwd: ATLASIII Participation Indeed On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 1:01 PM Humberto Carrasco <hcarrasco@cmsz.cl<mailto:hcarrasco@cmsz.cl>> wrote: Dear John, Please, do not forget that webinars were an alternative of online courses. Regards Enviado desde mi iPhone El 11-07-2019, a la(s) 13:55, John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com<mailto:jlaprise@gmail.com>> escribió: Hi Evan, Simply put, it wasn't about you. The program committee, ALAC and the selection committee agreed that participation in the webinars was a hard requirement. Full stop. Making exceptions would have opened a can of worms we decided to leave sealed, for better or worse. Sent from my Pixel 3XL John Laprise, Ph.D. On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 12:49 PM Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org<mailto:evan@telly.org>> wrote: Hi Judith. Yes, I applied before the deadline. I committed to take the "how does ICANN work" courses but apparently didn't finish them in time. So apparently I have not sufficiently demonstrated that I understand how ALAC operates within ICANN. (BTW, thouse ICANN learn courses are all aimed at registrants' PoV -- they miss much that is important to end users -- ie, At-Large. But, according to the selection committee, I don't know enough about this kind of thing.) - Evan On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 at 13:28, Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com<mailto:judith@jhellerstein.com>> wrote: HI Evan, Did you apply? I was not on the evaluating team but as I understand it there were very few applications from NARALO Best, Judith _________________________________________________________________________ Judith Hellerstein, Founder & CEO Hellerstein & Associates 3001 Veazey Terrace NW, Washington DC 20008 Phone: (202) 362-5139 Skype ID: judithhellerstein Mobile/Whats app: +1202-333-6517 E-mail: Judith@jhellerstein.com<mailto:Judith@jhellerstein.com> Website: www.jhellerstein.com<http://www.jhellerstein.com> Linked In: www.linkedin.com/in/jhellerstein/<http://www.linkedin.com/in/jhellerstein/> Opening Telecom & Technology Opportunities Worldwide On 7/11/2019 1:19 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote: Having been rejected from participating because I would have been such a tourist, I have no comment. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org<mailto:At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org<mailto:At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. -- Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada @evanleibovitch or @el56 _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org<mailto:At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org<mailto:At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Thanks for revealing this Vanda... I am inspired by you to reveal for the sake of additional example, that also having shall we say a fairly long history in ICANN marks include the 1st AGM in LA as a remote participation attendee, and having also done previous iterations of all sorts of capacity building activities, including earlier versions of ICANN Learn, I also to share the experience of the travel support applicants (noting I am funded from other sources, being ATRT3 Co-Chair etc., and so never considered application) and having been part of the Leadership Team in the previous ATLAS events and activities, I also completed all the ICANN Learn courses... And I mean all of them to assist in discussing what ones to include as required material, as well as the full webinar program in EN program... It is based on my practice of many years of not expecting others to do what I have not done myself I suppose, and it did not impinge 'too much' on my volunteer time nor effect my other ICANN activity to the best of my knowledge... Yes much of the material is basic, but the purpose of it was, I gather, to ensure a known basic standard of knowledge to work the ATLASIII program from... On Fri, Jul 12, 2019, 05:34 Vanda Scartezini <vanda@scartezini.org> wrote:
Being in ICANN for around 20 years and have been using the e-learning courses for long time in capacitation to others, I was one that felt no real need to attend all courses or webinar.
But I did all those, because rules in a worldwide selection are there to be followed, no exception shall be made if there was a selection criteria.
I am sorry not to have well prepared people attending ATLAS III, but I see no point in complain against the rules clearer stated before the beginning of the process.
best to all
*Vanda Scartezini*
*Polo Consultores Associados*
*Av. Paulista 1159, cj 1004*
*01311-200- Sao Paulo, SP, Brazil*
*Land Line: +55 11 3266.6253*
*Mobile: + 55 11 98181.1464 *
*Sorry for any typos. *
*From: *At-Large <at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> on behalf of John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> *Date: *Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 15:02 *To: *Humberto Carrasco <hcarrasco@cmsz.cl> *Cc: *'At-Large Worldwide' <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> *Subject: *Re: [At-Large] Fwd: ATLASIII Participation
Indeed
On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 1:01 PM Humberto Carrasco <hcarrasco@cmsz.cl> wrote:
Dear John,
Please, do not forget that webinars were an alternative of online courses.
Regards
Enviado desde mi iPhone
El 11-07-2019, a la(s) 13:55, John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> escribió:
Hi Evan,
Simply put, it wasn't about you.
The program committee, ALAC and the selection committee agreed that participation in the webinars was a hard requirement. Full stop.
Making exceptions would have opened a can of worms we decided to leave sealed, for better or worse.
Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D.
On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 12:49 PM Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org> wrote:
Hi Judith.
Yes, I applied before the deadline. I committed to take the "how does ICANN work" courses but apparently didn't finish them in time. So apparently I have not sufficiently demonstrated that I understand how ALAC operates within ICANN.
(BTW, thouse ICANN learn courses are all aimed at registrants' PoV -- they miss much that is important to end users -- ie, At-Large. But, according to the selection committee, I don't know enough about this kind of thing.)
- Evan
On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 at 13:28, Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com> wrote:
HI Evan,
Did you apply? I was not on the evaluating team but as I understand it there were very few applications from NARALO
Best,
Judith
_________________________________________________________________________
Judith Hellerstein, Founder & CEO
Hellerstein & Associates
3001 Veazey Terrace NW, Washington DC 20008
Phone: (202) 362-5139 Skype ID: judithhellerstein
Mobile/Whats app: +1202-333-6517
E-mail: Judith@jhellerstein.com Website: www.jhellerstein.com
Linked In: www.linkedin.com/in/jhellerstein/
Opening Telecom & Technology Opportunities Worldwide
On 7/11/2019 1:19 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote:
Having been rejected from participating because I would have been such a tourist, I have no comment.
_______________________________________________
At-Large mailing list
At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org
https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org
_______________________________________________
By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
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--
Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada
@evanleibovitch or @el56
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
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Dear Vanda, thank you - that is exactly what I wanted to say. I'll come clean: in the preparation phase, I pushed for everyone to follow the same courses for two reasons: 1. Making sure that everybody had reached a high enough level of knowledge by the time we get to Montreal, that we do not end up wasting time on explaining how, for example, the GNSO works during the precious time that we will have face to face. I actually think that learning about ICANN this way is a real benefit to end users - it is vital knowledge needed to evolve in this environment. 2. Making sure that other people in the group, the seasoned members of At-Large, knew what level of knowledge everyone was expected to achieve prior to the meeting, so that we do not end up with a discussion in Montréal that involves 15 expert members of the community and the rest not understanding what the heck they are talking about. Whilst I sympathize with people like Evan who have not been selected, the complaints about the ICANN learn courses being too long and a waste of time and not being bothered to finish them do not have my sympathy. Sorry. I took all of the mandatory courses, and in fact I also took all of the other ones on the ICANN Learn Web site too, in order to find out what was out there. It took me no more than an hour per course on the non mandatory ones, namely because in cases where I knew the topic well I either fast forwarded the video segments, or ran it at a higher speed than the original. I even ended up sending dozens of corrections to fix the courses to ICANN Learn staff. And lo and behold, I actually came across some real nuggets where I learnt something - and this has completed my education, where I can now comment on more topics that I better understand than before, in the public consultation process. And yes, I am really happy that I took the courses, because I enjoy learning more stuff, and I did. So 5 x 1 hour = 5 hours. The Group that had to focus on Capacity Building asked each other: is it reasonable to ask a volunteer to spend 5 hours on a course within the length of 1 month? And the answer was YES. This could be done in chunks of 15 minutes, if wanted. It was really not a real workload. Now I am reading many emails from many people about them not being able to complete the courses in time. Well, there were also the Webinars, as an even easier alternative. I am sorry this has taken out some people, but I would have expected a better and more positive response from seasoned participants. My outlook in life is that I am never confident enough to think that I do not require a refresher course - because the world moves on and I cannot rely solely on my past knowledge. Kindest regards, Olivier On 11/07/2019 21:34, Vanda Scartezini wrote:
Being in ICANN for around 20 years and have been using the e-learning courses for long time in capacitation to others, I was one that felt no real need to attend all courses or webinar.
But I did all those, because rules in a worldwide selection are there to be followed, no exception shall be made if there was a selection criteria.
I am sorry not to have well prepared people attending ATLAS III, but I see no point in complain against the rules clearer stated before the beginning of the process.
best to all
*/Vanda Scartezini/*
*/Polo Consultores Associados/*
*/Av. Paulista 1159, cj 1004/*
*/01311-200- Sao Paulo, SP, Brazil/*
*/Land Line: +55 11 3266.6253/*
*/Mobile: + 55 11 98181.1464 /*
*/Sorry for any typos. /*
*From: *At-Large <at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> on behalf of John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> *Date: *Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 15:02 *To: *Humberto Carrasco <hcarrasco@cmsz.cl> *Cc: *'At-Large Worldwide' <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> *Subject: *Re: [At-Large] Fwd: ATLASIII Participation
Indeed
On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 1:01 PM Humberto Carrasco <hcarrasco@cmsz.cl <mailto:hcarrasco@cmsz.cl>> wrote:
Dear John,
Please, do not forget that webinars were an alternative of online courses.
Regards
Enviado desde mi iPhone
El 11-07-2019, a la(s) 13:55, John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com <mailto:jlaprise@gmail.com>> escribió:
Hi Evan,
Simply put, it wasn't about you.
The program committee, ALAC and the selection committee agreed that participation in the webinars was a hard requirement. Full stop.
Making exceptions would have opened a can of worms we decided to leave sealed, for better or worse.
Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D.
On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 12:49 PM Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org <mailto:evan@telly.org>> wrote:
Hi Judith.
Yes, I applied before the deadline. I committed to take the "how does ICANN work" courses but apparently didn't finish them in time. So apparently I have not sufficiently demonstrated that I understand how ALAC operates within ICANN.
(BTW, thouse ICANN learn courses are all aimed at registrants' PoV -- they miss much that is important to end users -- ie, At-Large. But, according to the selection committee, I don't know enough about this kind of thing.)
- Evan
On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 at 13:28, Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com <mailto:judith@jhellerstein.com>> wrote:
HI Evan,
Did you apply? I was not on the evaluating team but as I understand it there were very few applications from NARALO
Best,
Judith
_________________________________________________________________________
Judith Hellerstein, Founder & CEO
Hellerstein & Associates
3001 Veazey Terrace NW, Washington DC 20008
Phone: (202) 362-5139 Skype ID: judithhellerstein
Mobile/Whats app: +1202-333-6517
E-mail: Judith@jhellerstein.com <mailto:Judith@jhellerstein.com> Website: www.jhellerstein.com <http://www.jhellerstein.com>
Linked In: www.linkedin.com/in/jhellerstein/ <http://www.linkedin.com/in/jhellerstein/>
Opening Telecom & Technology Opportunities Worldwide
On 7/11/2019 1:19 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote:
Having been rejected from participating because I would have been such a tourist, I have no comment.
_______________________________________________
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_______________________________________________
By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
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--
Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada
@evanleibovitch or @el56
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org <mailto:At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
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At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
-- Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, PhD http://www.gih.com/ocl.html
I would like to add one thing to what Olivier said. Incidentally, I agree fully with his remarks, while still regretting the fact that we might not enjoy the benefit of having some people that could be great contributors to the debate. I repeat here what I suggested within EURALO, that is that we have some waiting list to fill in for possible last minute cancellations by selected people. Obviously, prerequisite is to have completed the training plan. What I wanted to add is that before taking the courses I thought I knew everything 😀, but found out that this was not the case. I even gave a couple of wrong answers to the questions. So it was not wasted time at all. Cheers, Roberto On 12.07.2019, at 12:03, Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond <ocl@gih.com<mailto:ocl@gih.com>> wrote: Dear Vanda, thank you - that is exactly what I wanted to say. I'll come clean: in the preparation phase, I pushed for everyone to follow the same courses for two reasons: 1. Making sure that everybody had reached a high enough level of knowledge by the time we get to Montreal, that we do not end up wasting time on explaining how, for example, the GNSO works during the precious time that we will have face to face. I actually think that learning about ICANN this way is a real benefit to end users - it is vital knowledge needed to evolve in this environment. 2. Making sure that other people in the group, the seasoned members of At-Large, knew what level of knowledge everyone was expected to achieve prior to the meeting, so that we do not end up with a discussion in Montréal that involves 15 expert members of the community and the rest not understanding what the heck they are talking about. Whilst I sympathize with people like Evan who have not been selected, the complaints about the ICANN learn courses being too long and a waste of time and not being bothered to finish them do not have my sympathy. Sorry. I took all of the mandatory courses, and in fact I also took all of the other ones on the ICANN Learn Web site too, in order to find out what was out there. It took me no more than an hour per course on the non mandatory ones, namely because in cases where I knew the topic well I either fast forwarded the video segments, or ran it at a higher speed than the original. I even ended up sending dozens of corrections to fix the courses to ICANN Learn staff. And lo and behold, I actually came across some real nuggets where I learnt something - and this has completed my education, where I can now comment on more topics that I better understand than before, in the public consultation process. And yes, I am really happy that I took the courses, because I enjoy learning more stuff, and I did. So 5 x 1 hour = 5 hours. The Group that had to focus on Capacity Building asked each other: is it reasonable to ask a volunteer to spend 5 hours on a course within the length of 1 month? And the answer was YES. This could be done in chunks of 15 minutes, if wanted. It was really not a real workload. Now I am reading many emails from many people about them not being able to complete the courses in time. Well, there were also the Webinars, as an even easier alternative. I am sorry this has taken out some people, but I would have expected a better and more positive response from seasoned participants. My outlook in life is that I am never confident enough to think that I do not require a refresher course - because the world moves on and I cannot rely solely on my past knowledge. Kindest regards, Olivier On 11/07/2019 21:34, Vanda Scartezini wrote: Being in ICANN for around 20 years and have been using the e-learning courses for long time in capacitation to others, I was one that felt no real need to attend all courses or webinar. But I did all those, because rules in a worldwide selection are there to be followed, no exception shall be made if there was a selection criteria. I am sorry not to have well prepared people attending ATLAS III, but I see no point in complain against the rules clearer stated before the beginning of the process. best to all Vanda Scartezini Polo Consultores Associados Av. Paulista 1159, cj 1004 01311-200- Sao Paulo, SP, Brazil Land Line: +55 11 3266.6253 Mobile: + 55 11 98181.1464 Sorry for any typos. From: At-Large <at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org><mailto:at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> on behalf of John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com><mailto:jlaprise@gmail.com> Date: Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 15:02 To: Humberto Carrasco <hcarrasco@cmsz.cl><mailto:hcarrasco@cmsz.cl> Cc: 'At-Large Worldwide' <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org><mailto:at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Subject: Re: [At-Large] Fwd: ATLASIII Participation Indeed On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 1:01 PM Humberto Carrasco <hcarrasco@cmsz.cl<mailto:hcarrasco@cmsz.cl>> wrote: Dear John, Please, do not forget that webinars were an alternative of online courses. Regards Enviado desde mi iPhone El 11-07-2019, a la(s) 13:55, John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com<mailto:jlaprise@gmail.com>> escribió: Hi Evan, Simply put, it wasn't about you. The program committee, ALAC and the selection committee agreed that participation in the webinars was a hard requirement. Full stop. Making exceptions would have opened a can of worms we decided to leave sealed, for better or worse. Sent from my Pixel 3XL John Laprise, Ph.D. On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 12:49 PM Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org<mailto:evan@telly.org>> wrote: Hi Judith. Yes, I applied before the deadline. I committed to take the "how does ICANN work" courses but apparently didn't finish them in time. So apparently I have not sufficiently demonstrated that I understand how ALAC operates within ICANN. (BTW, thouse ICANN learn courses are all aimed at registrants' PoV -- they miss much that is important to end users -- ie, At-Large. But, according to the selection committee, I don't know enough about this kind of thing.) - Evan On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 at 13:28, Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com<mailto:judith@jhellerstein.com>> wrote: HI Evan, Did you apply? I was not on the evaluating team but as I understand it there were very few applications from NARALO Best, Judith _________________________________________________________________________ Judith Hellerstein, Founder & CEO Hellerstein & Associates 3001 Veazey Terrace NW, Washington DC 20008 Phone: (202) 362-5139 Skype ID: judithhellerstein Mobile/Whats app: +1202-333-6517 E-mail: Judith@jhellerstein.com<mailto:Judith@jhellerstein.com> Website: www.jhellerstein.com<http://www.jhellerstein.com/> Linked In: www.linkedin.com/in/jhellerstein/<http://www.linkedin.com/in/jhellerstein/> Opening Telecom & Technology Opportunities Worldwide On 7/11/2019 1:19 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote: Having been rejected from participating because I would have been such a tourist, I have no comment. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org<mailto:At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org<http://atlarge.icann.org/> _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org<mailto:At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org<http://atlarge.icann.org/> _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. -- Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada @evanleibovitch or @el56 _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org<mailto:At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org<http://atlarge.icann.org/> _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org<mailto:At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org<http://atlarge.icann.org/> _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org<mailto:At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org<http://atlarge.icann.org/> _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. -- Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, PhD http://www.gih.com/ocl.html _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org<mailto:At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org<http://atlarge.icann.org/> _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Dear all, I also took almost all ICANN Learn courses because I wanted to get as much knowledge as possible and in my opinion most for them are quit good and well structured if I compare them with older ones, which I needed to complete as a NextGen in 2017 for example. Plus, all of them are for free if you compare it with other platforms, you very often need to pay for every particular course like Coursera! Moreover, it should be an obvious thing to be prepared for such an event - to take the hell out of it 😀! Finally, I understand that people need to do this work besides their job, but still if I see this as part of my hobby or interest, I normally do this work with a kind of passion and I will enjoy it! Best, Matthias _________________________ Ing. Mag. Matthias M. Hudobnik matthias@hudobnik.at http://www.hudobnik.at
On 12.07.2019, at 12:22, Roberto Gaetano <roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com> wrote:
I would like to add one thing to what Olivier said. Incidentally, I agree fully with his remarks, while still regretting the fact that we might not enjoy the benefit of having some people that could be great contributors to the debate. I repeat here what I suggested within EURALO, that is that we have some waiting list to fill in for possible last minute cancellations by selected people. Obviously, prerequisite is to have completed the training plan. What I wanted to add is that before taking the courses I thought I knew everything 😀, but found out that this was not the case. I even gave a couple of wrong answers to the questions. So it was not wasted time at all. Cheers, Roberto
On 12.07.2019, at 12:03, Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond <ocl@gih.com> wrote:
Dear Vanda,
thank you - that is exactly what I wanted to say. I'll come clean: in the preparation phase, I pushed for everyone to follow the same courses for two reasons:
1. Making sure that everybody had reached a high enough level of knowledge by the time we get to Montreal, that we do not end up wasting time on explaining how, for example, the GNSO works during the precious time that we will have face to face. I actually think that learning about ICANN this way is a real benefit to end users - it is vital knowledge needed to evolve in this environment. 2. Making sure that other people in the group, the seasoned members of At-Large, knew what level of knowledge everyone was expected to achieve prior to the meeting, so that we do not end up with a discussion in Montréal that involves 15 expert members of the community and the rest not understanding what the heck they are talking about.
Whilst I sympathize with people like Evan who have not been selected, the complaints about the ICANN learn courses being too long and a waste of time and not being bothered to finish them do not have my sympathy. Sorry. I took all of the mandatory courses, and in fact I also took all of the other ones on the ICANN Learn Web site too, in order to find out what was out there. It took me no more than an hour per course on the non mandatory ones, namely because in cases where I knew the topic well I either fast forwarded the video segments, or ran it at a higher speed than the original. I even ended up sending dozens of corrections to fix the courses to ICANN Learn staff. And lo and behold, I actually came across some real nuggets where I learnt something - and this has completed my education, where I can now comment on more topics that I better understand than before, in the public consultation process. And yes, I am really happy that I took the courses, because I enjoy learning more stuff, and I did. So 5 x 1 hour = 5 hours. The Group that had to focus on Capacity Building asked each other: is it reasonable to ask a volunteer to spend 5 hours on a course within the length of 1 month? And the answer was YES. This could be done in chunks of 15 minutes, if wanted. It was really not a real workload. Now I am reading many emails from many people about them not being able to complete the courses in time. Well, there were also the Webinars, as an even easier alternative. I am sorry this has taken out some people, but I would have expected a better and more positive response from seasoned participants. My outlook in life is that I am never confident enough to think that I do not require a refresher course - because the world moves on and I cannot rely solely on my past knowledge.
Kindest regards,
Olivier
On 11/07/2019 21:34, Vanda Scartezini wrote: Being in ICANN for around 20 years and have been using the e-learning courses for long time in capacitation to others, I was one that felt no real need to attend all courses or webinar. But I did all those, because rules in a worldwide selection are there to be followed, no exception shall be made if there was a selection criteria. I am sorry not to have well prepared people attending ATLAS III, but I see no point in complain against the rules clearer stated before the beginning of the process. best to all
Vanda Scartezini Polo Consultores Associados Av. Paulista 1159, cj 1004 01311-200- Sao Paulo, SP, Brazil Land Line: +55 11 3266.6253 Mobile: + 55 11 98181.1464 Sorry for any typos.
From: At-Large <at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> on behalf of John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> Date: Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 15:02 To: Humberto Carrasco <hcarrasco@cmsz.cl> Cc: 'At-Large Worldwide' <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Subject: Re: [At-Large] Fwd: ATLASIII Participation
Indeed
On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 1:01 PM Humberto Carrasco <hcarrasco@cmsz.cl> wrote: Dear John,
Please, do not forget that webinars were an alternative of online courses.
Regards
Enviado desde mi iPhone
El 11-07-2019, a la(s) 13:55, John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> escribió:
Hi Evan,
Simply put, it wasn't about you.
The program committee, ALAC and the selection committee agreed that participation in the webinars was a hard requirement. Full stop.
Making exceptions would have opened a can of worms we decided to leave sealed, for better or worse.
Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D.
On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 12:49 PM Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org> wrote: Hi Judith.
Yes, I applied before the deadline. I committed to take the "how does ICANN work" courses but apparently didn't finish them in time. So apparently I have not sufficiently demonstrated that I understand how ALAC operates within ICANN. (BTW, thouse ICANN learn courses are all aimed at registrants' PoV -- they miss much that is important to end users -- ie, At-Large. But, according to the selection committee, I don't know enough about this kind of thing.)
- Evan
On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 at 13:28, Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com> wrote: HI Evan,
Did you apply? I was not on the evaluating team but as I understand it there were very few applications from NARALO
Best,
Judith
_________________________________________________________________________ Judith Hellerstein, Founder & CEO Hellerstein & Associates 3001 Veazey Terrace NW, Washington DC 20008 Phone: (202) 362-5139 Skype ID: judithhellerstein Mobile/Whats app: +1202-333-6517 E-mail: Judith@jhellerstein.com Website: www.jhellerstein.com Linked In: www.linkedin.com/in/jhellerstein/ Opening Telecom & Technology Opportunities Worldwide
On 7/11/2019 1:19 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote: Having been rejected from participating because I would have been such a tourist, I have no comment.
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
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I do agree with Olivier, I also had completed ICANN learn course as well as attended webinars of the mandatory ATLAS III to gain more knowledge. it is really worth and good experience. Thank you Bikram On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 4:48 PM Matthias M. Hudobnik <matthias@hudobnik.at> wrote:
Dear all,
I also took almost all ICANN Learn courses because I wanted to get as much knowledge as possible and in my opinion most for them are quit good and well structured if I compare them with older ones, which I needed to complete as a NextGen in 2017 for example.
Plus, all of them are for free if you compare it with other platforms, you very often need to pay for every particular course like Coursera!
Moreover, it should be an obvious thing to be prepared for such an event - to take the hell out of it 😀!
Finally, I understand that people need to do this work besides their job, but still if I see this as part of my hobby or interest, I normally do this work with a kind of passion and I will enjoy it!
Best, Matthias
_________________________ Ing. Mag. Matthias M. Hudobnik matthias@hudobnik.at http://www.hudobnik.at
On 12.07.2019, at 12:22, Roberto Gaetano <roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com> wrote:
I would like to add one thing to what Olivier said. Incidentally, I agree fully with his remarks, while still regretting the fact that we might not enjoy the benefit of having some people that could be great contributors to the debate. I repeat here what I suggested within EURALO, that is that we have some waiting list to fill in for possible last minute cancellations by selected people. Obviously, prerequisite is to have completed the training plan. What I wanted to add is that before taking the courses I thought I knew everything 😀, but found out that this was not the case. I even gave a couple of wrong answers to the questions. So it was not wasted time at all. Cheers, Roberto
On 12.07.2019, at 12:03, Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond <ocl@gih.com> wrote:
Dear Vanda,
thank you - that is exactly what I wanted to say. I'll come clean: in the preparation phase, I pushed for everyone to follow the same courses for two reasons:
1. Making sure that everybody had reached a high enough level of knowledge by the time we get to Montreal, that we do not end up wasting time on explaining how, for example, the GNSO works during the precious time that we will have face to face. I actually think that learning about ICANN this way is a real benefit to end users - it is vital knowledge needed to evolve in this environment. 2. Making sure that other people in the group, the seasoned members of At-Large, knew what level of knowledge everyone was expected to achieve prior to the meeting, so that we do not end up with a discussion in Montréal that involves 15 expert members of the community and the rest not understanding what the heck they are talking about.
Whilst I sympathize with people like Evan who have not been selected, the complaints about the ICANN learn courses being too long and a waste of time and not being bothered to finish them do not have my sympathy. Sorry. I took all of the mandatory courses, and in fact I also took all of the other ones on the ICANN Learn Web site too, in order to find out what was out there. It took me no more than an hour per course on the non mandatory ones, namely because in cases where I knew the topic well I either fast forwarded the video segments, or ran it at a higher speed than the original. I even ended up sending dozens of corrections to fix the courses to ICANN Learn staff. And lo and behold, I actually came across some real nuggets where I learnt something - and this has completed my education, where I can now comment on more topics that I better understand than before, in the public consultation process. And yes, I am really happy that I took the courses, because I enjoy learning more stuff, and I did. So 5 x 1 hour = 5 hours. The Group that had to focus on Capacity Building asked each other: is it reasonable to ask a volunteer to spend 5 hours on a course within the length of 1 month? And the answer was YES. This could be done in chunks of 15 minutes, if wanted. It was really not a real workload.
Now I am reading many emails from many people about them not being able to complete the courses in time. Well, there were also the Webinars, as an even easier alternative. I am sorry this has taken out some people, but I would have expected a better and more positive response from seasoned participants. My outlook in life is that I am never confident enough to think that I do not require a refresher course - because the world moves on and I cannot rely solely on my past knowledge.
Kindest regards,
Olivier
On 11/07/2019 21:34, Vanda Scartezini wrote:
Being in ICANN for around 20 years and have been using the e-learning courses for long time in capacitation to others, I was one that felt no real need to attend all courses or webinar. But I did all those, because rules in a worldwide selection are there to be followed, no exception shall be made if there was a selection criteria. I am sorry not to have well prepared people attending ATLAS III, but I see no point in complain against the rules clearer stated before the beginning of the process. best to all
*Vanda Scartezini* *Polo Consultores Associados* *Av. Paulista 1159, cj 1004* *01311-200- Sao Paulo, SP, Brazil* *Land Line: +55 11 3266.6253* *Mobile: + 55 11 98181.1464 * *Sorry for any typos. *
*From: *At-Large <at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> <at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> on behalf of John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> <jlaprise@gmail.com> *Date: *Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 15:02 *To: *Humberto Carrasco <hcarrasco@cmsz.cl> <hcarrasco@cmsz.cl> *Cc: *'At-Large Worldwide' <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> *Subject: *Re: [At-Large] Fwd: ATLASIII Participation
Indeed
On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 1:01 PM Humberto Carrasco <hcarrasco@cmsz.cl> wrote:
Dear John,
Please, do not forget that webinars were an alternative of online courses.
Regards Enviado desde mi iPhone
El 11-07-2019, a la(s) 13:55, John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> escribió:
Hi Evan,
Simply put, it wasn't about you.
The program committee, ALAC and the selection committee agreed that participation in the webinars was a hard requirement. Full stop.
Making exceptions would have opened a can of worms we decided to leave sealed, for better or worse. Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D.
On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 12:49 PM Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org> wrote:
Hi Judith.
Yes, I applied before the deadline. I committed to take the "how does ICANN work" courses but apparently didn't finish them in time. So apparently I have not sufficiently demonstrated that I understand how ALAC operates within ICANN. (BTW, thouse ICANN learn courses are all aimed at registrants' PoV -- they miss much that is important to end users -- ie, At-Large. But, according to the selection committee, I don't know enough about this kind of thing.)
- Evan
On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 at 13:28, Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com> wrote:
HI Evan,
Did you apply? I was not on the evaluating team but as I understand it there were very few applications from NARALO
Best,
Judith
_________________________________________________________________________
Judith Hellerstein, Founder & CEO
Hellerstein & Associates
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Opening Telecom & Technology Opportunities Worldwide
On 7/11/2019 1:19 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote:
Having been rejected from participating because I would have been such a tourist, I have no comment.
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-- Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, PhDhttp://www.gih.com/ocl.html
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-- Thank you Bikram Shrestha Kathmandu, Nepal. Mobile no. 9851000044
Roberto, Olivier, Vanda, one more point (and I hope we can get on to issues like the poll I proposed earlier this week, to make sure the people who meet for ATLAS III really carry the users' voice), the "old hands" who took part in the courses added value with comments, precisions, clarifications, and more, in the sideline chats and the Q&A, thus becoming a valuable support for the instructors. That's what volunteers do, right? Alejandro Pisanty - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Facultad de Química UNAM Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico +52-1-5541444475 FROM ABROAD +525541444475 DESDE MÉXICO SMS +525541444475 Blog: http://pisanty.blogspot.com LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn, http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614 Twitter: http://twitter.com/apisanty ---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, http://www.isoc.org . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ________________________________ Desde: At-Large [at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] en nombre de Roberto Gaetano [roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com] Enviado el: viernes, 12 de julio de 2019 05:22 Hasta: Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond CC: Humberto Carrasco; At Large Asunto: Re: [At-Large] ATLASIII Participation I would like to add one thing to what Olivier said. Incidentally, I agree fully with his remarks, while still regretting the fact that we might not enjoy the benefit of having some people that could be great contributors to the debate. I repeat here what I suggested within EURALO, that is that we have some waiting list to fill in for possible last minute cancellations by selected people. Obviously, prerequisite is to have completed the training plan. What I wanted to add is that before taking the courses I thought I knew everything 😀, but found out that this was not the case. I even gave a couple of wrong answers to the questions. So it was not wasted time at all. Cheers, Roberto On 12.07.2019, at 12:03, Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond <ocl@gih.com<mailto:ocl@gih.com>> wrote: Dear Vanda, thank you - that is exactly what I wanted to say. I'll come clean: in the preparation phase, I pushed for everyone to follow the same courses for two reasons: 1. Making sure that everybody had reached a high enough level of knowledge by the time we get to Montreal, that we do not end up wasting time on explaining how, for example, the GNSO works during the precious time that we will have face to face. I actually think that learning about ICANN this way is a real benefit to end users - it is vital knowledge needed to evolve in this environment. 2. Making sure that other people in the group, the seasoned members of At-Large, knew what level of knowledge everyone was expected to achieve prior to the meeting, so that we do not end up with a discussion in Montréal that involves 15 expert members of the community and the rest not understanding what the heck they are talking about. Whilst I sympathize with people like Evan who have not been selected, the complaints about the ICANN learn courses being too long and a waste of time and not being bothered to finish them do not have my sympathy. Sorry. I took all of the mandatory courses, and in fact I also took all of the other ones on the ICANN Learn Web site too, in order to find out what was out there. It took me no more than an hour per course on the non mandatory ones, namely because in cases where I knew the topic well I either fast forwarded the video segments, or ran it at a higher speed than the original. I even ended up sending dozens of corrections to fix the courses to ICANN Learn staff. And lo and behold, I actually came across some real nuggets where I learnt something - and this has completed my education, where I can now comment on more topics that I better understand than before, in the public consultation process. And yes, I am really happy that I took the courses, because I enjoy learning more stuff, and I did. So 5 x 1 hour = 5 hours. The Group that had to focus on Capacity Building asked each other: is it reasonable to ask a volunteer to spend 5 hours on a course within the length of 1 month? And the answer was YES. This could be done in chunks of 15 minutes, if wanted. It was really not a real workload. Now I am reading many emails from many people about them not being able to complete the courses in time. Well, there were also the Webinars, as an even easier alternative. I am sorry this has taken out some people, but I would have expected a better and more positive response from seasoned participants. My outlook in life is that I am never confident enough to think that I do not require a refresher course - because the world moves on and I cannot rely solely on my past knowledge. Kindest regards, Olivier On 11/07/2019 21:34, Vanda Scartezini wrote: Being in ICANN for around 20 years and have been using the e-learning courses for long time in capacitation to others, I was one that felt no real need to attend all courses or webinar. But I did all those, because rules in a worldwide selection are there to be followed, no exception shall be made if there was a selection criteria. I am sorry not to have well prepared people attending ATLAS III, but I see no point in complain against the rules clearer stated before the beginning of the process. best to all Vanda Scartezini Polo Consultores Associados Av. Paulista 1159, cj 1004 01311-200- Sao Paulo, SP, Brazil Land Line: +55 11 3266.6253 Mobile: + 55 11 98181.1464 Sorry for any typos. From: At-Large <at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org><mailto:at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> on behalf of John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com><mailto:jlaprise@gmail.com> Date: Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 15:02 To: Humberto Carrasco <hcarrasco@cmsz.cl><mailto:hcarrasco@cmsz.cl> Cc: 'At-Large Worldwide' <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org><mailto:at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Subject: Re: [At-Large] Fwd: ATLASIII Participation Indeed On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 1:01 PM Humberto Carrasco <hcarrasco@cmsz.cl<mailto:hcarrasco@cmsz.cl>> wrote: Dear John, Please, do not forget that webinars were an alternative of online courses. Regards Enviado desde mi iPhone El 11-07-2019, a la(s) 13:55, John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com<mailto:jlaprise@gmail.com>> escribió: Hi Evan, Simply put, it wasn't about you. The program committee, ALAC and the selection committee agreed that participation in the webinars was a hard requirement. Full stop. Making exceptions would have opened a can of worms we decided to leave sealed, for better or worse. Sent from my Pixel 3XL John Laprise, Ph.D. On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 12:49 PM Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org<mailto:evan@telly.org>> wrote: Hi Judith. Yes, I applied before the deadline. I committed to take the "how does ICANN work" courses but apparently didn't finish them in time. So apparently I have not sufficiently demonstrated that I understand how ALAC operates within ICANN. (BTW, thouse ICANN learn courses are all aimed at registrants' PoV -- they miss much that is important to end users -- ie, At-Large. But, according to the selection committee, I don't know enough about this kind of thing.) - Evan On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 at 13:28, Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com<mailto:judith@jhellerstein.com>> wrote: HI Evan, Did you apply? I was not on the evaluating team but as I understand it there were very few applications from NARALO Best, Judith _________________________________________________________________________ Judith Hellerstein, Founder & CEO Hellerstein & Associates 3001 Veazey Terrace NW, Washington DC 20008 Phone: (202) 362-5139 Skype ID: judithhellerstein Mobile/Whats app: +1202-333-6517 E-mail: Judith@jhellerstein.com<mailto:Judith@jhellerstein.com> Website: www.jhellerstein.com<http://www.jhellerstein.com/> Linked In: www.linkedin.com/in/jhellerstein/<http://www.linkedin.com/in/jhellerstein/> Opening Telecom & Technology Opportunities Worldwide On 7/11/2019 1:19 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote: Having been rejected from participating because I would have been such a tourist, I have no comment. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org<mailto:At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org<http://atlarge.icann.org/> _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org<mailto:At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org<http://atlarge.icann.org/> _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. -- Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada @evanleibovitch or @el56 _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org<mailto:At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org<http://atlarge.icann.org/> _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org<mailto:At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org<http://atlarge.icann.org/> _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org<mailto:At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org<http://atlarge.icann.org/> _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. -- Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, PhD http://www.gih.com/ocl.html _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org<mailto:At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org<http://atlarge.icann.org/> _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
In no way to detract from any point you are making. But this is the first I've heard about ATLAS participation or these ICANN courses. I also have no idea whether this matters in the slightest. I suspect I am within a mere 99.99999999% of the Internet userbase on that. I would also argue that I am probably much more aware of ICANN than most Internet users. This leads me to feel that ICANN is not an appropriate venue to represent my interests or views. C Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond wrote:
Dear Vanda,
thank you - that is exactly what I wanted to say. I'll come clean: in the preparation phase, I pushed for everyone to follow the same courses for two reasons:
1. Making sure that everybody had reached a high enough level of knowledge by the time we get to Montreal, that we do not end up wasting time on explaining how, for example, the GNSO works during the precious time that we will have face to face. I actually think that learning about ICANN this way is a real benefit to end users - it is vital knowledge needed to evolve in this environment. 2. Making sure that other people in the group, the seasoned members of At-Large, knew what level of knowledge everyone was expected to achieve prior to the meeting, so that we do not end up with a discussion in Montréal that involves 15 expert members of the community and the rest not understanding what the heck they are talking about.
Whilst I sympathize with people like Evan who have not been selected, the complaints about the ICANN learn courses being too long and a waste of time and not being bothered to finish them do not have my sympathy. Sorry. I took all of the mandatory courses, and in fact I also took all of the other ones on the ICANN Learn Web site too, in order to find out what was out there. It took me no more than an hour per course on the non mandatory ones, namely because in cases where I knew the topic well I either fast forwarded the video segments, or ran it at a higher speed than the original. I even ended up sending dozens of corrections to fix the courses to ICANN Learn staff. And lo and behold, I actually came across some real nuggets where I learnt something - and this has completed my education, where I can now comment on more topics that I better understand than before, in the public consultation process. And yes, I am really happy that I took the courses, because I enjoy learning more stuff, and I did. So 5 x 1 hour = 5 hours. The Group that had to focus on Capacity Building asked each other: is it reasonable to ask a volunteer to spend 5 hours on a course within the length of 1 month? And the answer was YES. This could be done in chunks of 15 minutes, if wanted. It was really not a real workload. Now I am reading many emails from many people about them not being able to complete the courses in time. Well, there were also the Webinars, as an even easier alternative. I am sorry this has taken out some people, but I would have expected a better and more positive response from seasoned participants. My outlook in life is that I am never confident enough to think that I do not require a refresher course - because the world moves on and I cannot rely solely on my past knowledge.
Kindest regards,
Olivier
On 11/07/2019 21:34, Vanda Scartezini wrote:
Being in ICANN for around 20 years and have been using the e-learning courses for long time in capacitation to others, I was one that felt no real need to attend all courses or webinar.
But I did all those, because rules in a worldwide selection are there to be followed, no exception shall be made if there was a selection criteria.
I am sorry not to have well prepared people attending ATLAS III, but I see no point in complain against the rules clearer stated before the beginning of the process.
best to all
*/Vanda Scartezini/*
*/Polo Consultores Associados/*
*/Av. Paulista 1159, cj 1004/*
*/01311-200- Sao Paulo, SP, Brazil/*
*/Land Line: +55 11 3266.6253/*
*/Mobile: + 55 11 98181.1464 /*
*/Sorry for any typos. /*
*From: *At-Large <at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> on behalf of John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> *Date: *Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 15:02 *To: *Humberto Carrasco <hcarrasco@cmsz.cl> *Cc: *'At-Large Worldwide' <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> *Subject: *Re: [At-Large] Fwd: ATLASIII Participation
Indeed
On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 1:01 PM Humberto Carrasco <hcarrasco@cmsz.cl <mailto:hcarrasco@cmsz.cl>> wrote:
Dear John,
Please, do not forget that webinars were an alternative of online courses.
Regards
Enviado desde mi iPhone
El 11-07-2019, a la(s) 13:55, John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com <mailto:jlaprise@gmail.com>> escribió:
Hi Evan,
Simply put, it wasn't about you.
The program committee, ALAC and the selection committee agreed that participation in the webinars was a hard requirement. Full stop.
Making exceptions would have opened a can of worms we decided to leave sealed, for better or worse.
Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D.
On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 12:49 PM Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org <mailto:evan@telly.org>> wrote:
Hi Judith.
Yes, I applied before the deadline. I committed to take the "how does ICANN work" courses but apparently didn't finish them in time. So apparently I have not sufficiently demonstrated that I understand how ALAC operates within ICANN.
(BTW, thouse ICANN learn courses are all aimed at registrants' PoV -- they miss much that is important to end users -- ie, At-Large. But, according to the selection committee, I don't know enough about this kind of thing.)
- Evan
On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 at 13:28, Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com <mailto:judith@jhellerstein.com>> wrote:
HI Evan,
Did you apply? I was not on the evaluating team but as I understand it there were very few applications from NARALO
Best,
Judith
_________________________________________________________________________
Judith Hellerstein, Founder & CEO
Hellerstein & Associates
3001 Veazey Terrace NW, Washington DC 20008
Phone: (202) 362-5139 Skype ID: judithhellerstein
Mobile/Whats app: +1202-333-6517
E-mail: Judith@jhellerstein.com <mailto:Judith@jhellerstein.com> Website: www.jhellerstein.com <http://www.jhellerstein.com>
Linked In: www.linkedin.com/in/jhellerstein/ <http://www.linkedin.com/in/jhellerstein/>
Opening Telecom & Technology Opportunities Worldwide
On 7/11/2019 1:19 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote:
Having been rejected from participating because I would have been such a tourist, I have no comment.
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--
Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada
@evanleibovitch or @el56
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_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
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-- Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, PhD http://www.gih.com/ocl.html _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
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-- Christian de Larrinaga @ FirstHand ------------------------- +44 7989 386778 cdel@firsthand.net
Hi Christian, A couple of comments. While I may agree with you that ICAN is by and large insufficient as a forum where the users’ voice is represented, I cannot think of another venue where we could have a different situation. If you have an idea, please share it. As a mathematician, I also have some perplexity on your estimates. 99.99999999% of people unaware of ICANN means that only 0.00000001% of the world population, estimated at below 10 billions, is aware. 0.00000001% of the population is barely 1 individual. My question is: “Who is this only individual on earth that believes that ICANN matters?” 😜 Cheers, Roberto
On 12.07.2019, at 14:53, Christian de Larrinaga <cdel@firsthand.net> wrote:
In no way to detract from any point you are making. But this is the first I've heard about ATLAS participation or these ICANN courses. I also have no idea whether this matters in the slightest.
I suspect I am within a mere 99.99999999% of the Internet userbase on that. I would also argue that I am probably much more aware of ICANN than most Internet users.
This leads me to feel that ICANN is not an appropriate venue to represent my interests or views.
C
Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond wrote:
Dear Vanda,
thank you - that is exactly what I wanted to say. I'll come clean: in the preparation phase, I pushed for everyone to follow the same courses for two reasons:
1. Making sure that everybody had reached a high enough level of knowledge by the time we get to Montreal, that we do not end up wasting time on explaining how, for example, the GNSO works during the precious time that we will have face to face. I actually think that learning about ICANN this way is a real benefit to end users - it is vital knowledge needed to evolve in this environment. 2. Making sure that other people in the group, the seasoned members of At-Large, knew what level of knowledge everyone was expected to achieve prior to the meeting, so that we do not end up with a discussion in Montréal that involves 15 expert members of the community and the rest not understanding what the heck they are talking about.
Whilst I sympathize with people like Evan who have not been selected, the complaints about the ICANN learn courses being too long and a waste of time and not being bothered to finish them do not have my sympathy. Sorry. I took all of the mandatory courses, and in fact I also took all of the other ones on the ICANN Learn Web site too, in order to find out what was out there. It took me no more than an hour per course on the non mandatory ones, namely because in cases where I knew the topic well I either fast forwarded the video segments, or ran it at a higher speed than the original. I even ended up sending dozens of corrections to fix the courses to ICANN Learn staff. And lo and behold, I actually came across some real nuggets where I learnt something - and this has completed my education, where I can now comment on more topics that I better understand than before, in the public consultation process. And yes, I am really happy that I took the courses, because I enjoy learning more stuff, and I did. So 5 x 1 hour = 5 hours. The Group that had to focus on Capacity Building asked each other: is it reasonable to ask a volunteer to spend 5 hours on a course within the length of 1 month? And the answer was YES. This could be done in chunks of 15 minutes, if wanted. It was really not a real workload. Now I am reading many emails from many people about them not being able to complete the courses in time. Well, there were also the Webinars, as an even easier alternative. I am sorry this has taken out some people, but I would have expected a better and more positive response from seasoned participants. My outlook in life is that I am never confident enough to think that I do not require a refresher course - because the world moves on and I cannot rely solely on my past knowledge.
Kindest regards,
Olivier
On 11/07/2019 21:34, Vanda Scartezini wrote:
Being in ICANN for around 20 years and have been using the e-learning courses for long time in capacitation to others, I was one that felt no real need to attend all courses or webinar.
But I did all those, because rules in a worldwide selection are there to be followed, no exception shall be made if there was a selection criteria.
I am sorry not to have well prepared people attending ATLAS III, but I see no point in complain against the rules clearer stated before the beginning of the process.
best to all
*/Vanda Scartezini/*
*/Polo Consultores Associados/*
*/Av. Paulista 1159, cj 1004/*
*/01311-200- Sao Paulo, SP, Brazil/*
*/Land Line: +55 11 3266.6253/*
*/Mobile: + 55 11 98181.1464 /*
*/Sorry for any typos. /*
*From: *At-Large <at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> on behalf of John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> *Date: *Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 15:02 *To: *Humberto Carrasco <hcarrasco@cmsz.cl> *Cc: *'At-Large Worldwide' <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> *Subject: *Re: [At-Large] Fwd: ATLASIII Participation
Indeed
On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 1:01 PM Humberto Carrasco <hcarrasco@cmsz.cl <mailto:hcarrasco@cmsz.cl>> wrote:
Dear John,
Please, do not forget that webinars were an alternative of online courses.
Regards
Enviado desde mi iPhone
El 11-07-2019, a la(s) 13:55, John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com <mailto:jlaprise@gmail.com>> escribió:
Hi Evan,
Simply put, it wasn't about you.
The program committee, ALAC and the selection committee agreed that participation in the webinars was a hard requirement. Full stop.
Making exceptions would have opened a can of worms we decided to leave sealed, for better or worse.
Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D.
On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 12:49 PM Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org <mailto:evan@telly.org>> wrote:
Hi Judith.
Yes, I applied before the deadline. I committed to take the "how does ICANN work" courses but apparently didn't finish them in time. So apparently I have not sufficiently demonstrated that I understand how ALAC operates within ICANN.
(BTW, thouse ICANN learn courses are all aimed at registrants' PoV -- they miss much that is important to end users -- ie, At-Large. But, according to the selection committee, I don't know enough about this kind of thing.)
- Evan
On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 at 13:28, Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com <mailto:judith@jhellerstein.com>> wrote:
HI Evan,
Did you apply? I was not on the evaluating team but as I understand it there were very few applications from NARALO
Best,
Judith
_________________________________________________________________________
Judith Hellerstein, Founder & CEO
Hellerstein & Associates
3001 Veazey Terrace NW, Washington DC 20008
Phone: (202) 362-5139 Skype ID: judithhellerstein
Mobile/Whats app: +1202-333-6517
E-mail: Judith@jhellerstein.com <mailto:Judith@jhellerstein.com> Website: www.jhellerstein.com <http://www.jhellerstein.com>
Linked In: www.linkedin.com/in/jhellerstein/ <http://www.linkedin.com/in/jhellerstein/>
Opening Telecom & Technology Opportunities Worldwide
On 7/11/2019 1:19 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote:
Having been rejected from participating because I would have been such a tourist, I have no comment.
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--
Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada
@evanleibovitch or @el56
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-- Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, PhD http://www.gih.com/ocl.html _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
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-- Christian de Larrinaga @ FirstHand ------------------------- +44 7989 386778 cdel@firsthand.net
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At its heart, this debate is about barriers to entry, overreactions, and misguided objectives. The fact remains that only two people from NARALO -- ironically, the region whose participants would be the least expensive to sent to Montreal -- were selected. That means that either 1 - it was not well publicized 2 - not enough people were interested 3 - of the people who were interested, the effort to participate is greater than the perceived benefit I guess in my case it was #3. My time is valuable. My participation (as do all of yours) in ALAC benefits the group more than the individual. Time spent in ALAC is not time doing other activities. Some of these activities have actively invited me, apparently concluding that my contribution to the greater good is sufficiently worth inviting me and even paying expenses. Not ALAC. I have to repeatedly prove my worth through absolutely stupid registration forms and an obligation to waste (my opinion) even more time now in order I can be blessed to give more of it later. I have keynoted conferences that have asked for far, far less, rarely more than registration and abiding to a code of conduct. The treatment of ICANN covering expenses as a treasured gift, indeed a "perk", is an absolutely disgusting attitude advanced by ICANN staff -- and, for reasons unknown, accepted as gospel by ALAC. We advance horrible metrics incurred by no other ICANN constituency. Will there be "tourists" who abuse their luxury-steerage travel? Sure, but so long as ALAC members are elected there will inevitably be "beauty contests" in which some elected reps are the most sociable rather than the most skilled. And the NomCom occasionally makes mistakes. Live with it, and spend more effort identifying and inviting people you actively know will fill the void. (Indeed, perhaps just dispense with F2F completely and make the Summit 100% virtual. But that's a different conversation.) Reading about ALAC working so hard to put in place all these rules to participate can't help remind of situations in which scores of people are denied their legitimate franchise in the name of eliminating "voter fraud". In such cases the solution is ALWAYS worse than the problem it sets out to solve. As it is here, This isn't our first go-round at the issue. A core reason for the failure of the Applicant Support program was that we designed in so many anti-cheating mechanisms that legitimate applicants -- the kind we wanted to exploit the program -- were shut out. One hopes to learn from past mistakes. Apparently not here. Accept that some "cheating" is inevitable in order to get the desired end-results. After all, what is the objective to the summit? "Bringing together X number of people who have jumped through the right hoops?" or "making ICANN better through a strong and relevant ALAC"? I suspect that the second choice is more inline with ALAC's bylaw mandate. Of course I hear "but other regions didn't have that problem and we had plenty of applicants from elsewhere." Great for them. But we have now clear evidence that -- based on the result -- at least in one region of five, the process failed miserably. If that's an acceptable failure rate, so be it. (Personally I think restricting the Summit to people willing to learn all about ICANN is a grave mistake, shutting out some who could enrich us from outside the bubble.) It's really sad to see things go this way. I know of other people who would be valuable assets to the summit, but couldn't be bothered to jump through all the hoops. Who is harmed by such exclusion? While ALAC obsesses with "who would be coming that shouldn't", it ignores "who should be coming that won't". And I don't mean me. The image of ALAC as a room full of well-intentioned Vogons further entrenches with each passing year. The only metric that matters to me is "Do the actions of ALAC meaningfully change ICANN for the better?" Ask yourselves in sincerity if that metric is being even addressed, let alone met. Cheers, Evan
On Fri, 12 Jul 2019 at 09:17, Roberto Gaetano <roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com> wrote:
While I may agree with you that ICAN is by and large insufficient as a forum where the users’ voice is represented, I cannot think of another venue where we could have a different situation. If you have an idea, please share it.
Having a process that embeds and demands a public interest component into each ITU delegation is looking better every day. Also, the pre-ALAC way to have the public elect the ICANN Board -- a board not obligated to accept GNSO edicts -- would be a good step.
Dear Roberto That is a lovely reply. But you are in a better position to answer your question than I or someone else closer to ICANN today. I hope you don't think I was referring to myself as that 1 person you so accurately fathomed from my inadvertently framed formula obfuscation! ;-) Although I hugely admire the folk working as At Large for trying to promote a user interest in the ICANN melee. It is not working I fear. Who funds At Large? How does At Large operate and how do its representatives get funded? Who controls the remit for that funding? ICANN does as I understand it. I remember being party to a past President of ICANN exclaim offstage "But we don't do that!" when he asked a friend what to talk about and was advised to mention ICANN's role for Internet users . He went up and talked about the role for Internet users anyway. It was an At Large gathering after all. As I said before I don't know Atlas or what it is trying to do. I am not against training or knowledge or expertise far from it. But I worry that ICANN has always been rather good at introducing hurdles, hoops and complexity and now it seems qualifications limited by who can participate in gaining them to further erode engagement by Internet users. That is why I poked my keyboard above the parapet once more to test the waters. The issue around the Internet user is not theoretical. It is real because in the Internet the user is at the edge of the network and that is where both the intelligence and the decision control surface for connectivity between end points has to lie. Everything else in the middle is just routing across diverse infrastructures to optimise that connectivity. Everything done in the technical community should be to assist in optimising that connectivity and broadening the application capacity and capabilities between end points. So what am I trying to say? Internet was developed by a focus from the bottom to the top or rather from the network edge to the network edge at the other side. Yet institutionally over the last couple of decades the discussion has excluded the network edge and moved towards intermediaries. Internet users are not represented in IANA, RIRs or in LIRs - intermediaries are. Internet users are not represented in tld registries nor in registrars. - intermediaries are. Internet users are not represented in ISPs or ISP associations or IXPs - intermediaries are Internet users are not represented in Platforms / application service providers. - no one but the platform owner is. increasingly Internet users are not represented in Standards or Specification recommendations - intermediaries are, as unsurprisingly given my list above they are defining the service design for users rather than users themselves. Even the development stacks albeit open sourced are largely shovelled out of the doors of the intermediary platforms ready made to bolster and extend their unfair advantage in the "cloud". For instance the UK Internet Service Provider Association last week voted Mozilla an Internet villain for its promotion of DNS over HTTPS. The public ridicule of that amongst aware users forced a climb down by the end of the week. But that was because of the bad public PR created by the volume of approbium. It was not about detailed process discussion in an intermediary technical policy implementation body like ICANN. No Atlas or at large type process has shown itself effective in knocking such nonsenses back. Yet in private and behind closed doors will ISPs continue their campaign to stop DoH? Of course. They are drafting Internet drafts now to allow ISPs to negate a user's use of DoH across their networks. Now how much of this user space can At Large by being an ICANN only body really address? I don't see the scale required being nearly met by focussing on ICANN. I worry that the concentration of energy and focus on ICANN institutionally is increasingly a distraction that too many good people who can make a difference for Internet users are suckered into. What is needed is an Internet user focus across the entire stack end to end. Christian Roberto Gaetano wrote:
Hi Christian, A couple of comments. While I may agree with you that ICAN is by and large insufficient as a forum where the users’ voice is represented, I cannot think of another venue where we could have a different situation. If you have an idea, please share it. As a mathematician, I also have some perplexity on your estimates. 99.99999999% of people unaware of ICANN means that only 0.00000001% of the world population, estimated at below 10 billions, is aware. 0.00000001% of the population is barely 1 individual. My question is: “Who is this only individual on earth that believes that ICANN matters?” 😜 Cheers, Roberto
On 12.07.2019, at 14:53, Christian de Larrinaga <cdel@firsthand.net> wrote:
In no way to detract from any point you are making. But this is the first I've heard about ATLAS participation or these ICANN courses. I also have no idea whether this matters in the slightest.
I suspect I am within a mere 99.99999999% of the Internet userbase on that. I would also argue that I am probably much more aware of ICANN than most Internet users.
This leads me to feel that ICANN is not an appropriate venue to represent my interests or views.
C
Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond wrote:
Dear Vanda,
thank you - that is exactly what I wanted to say. I'll come clean: in the preparation phase, I pushed for everyone to follow the same courses for two reasons:
1. Making sure that everybody had reached a high enough level of knowledge by the time we get to Montreal, that we do not end up wasting time on explaining how, for example, the GNSO works during the precious time that we will have face to face. I actually think that learning about ICANN this way is a real benefit to end users - it is vital knowledge needed to evolve in this environment. 2. Making sure that other people in the group, the seasoned members of At-Large, knew what level of knowledge everyone was expected to achieve prior to the meeting, so that we do not end up with a discussion in Montréal that involves 15 expert members of the community and the rest not understanding what the heck they are talking about.
Whilst I sympathize with people like Evan who have not been selected, the complaints about the ICANN learn courses being too long and a waste of time and not being bothered to finish them do not have my sympathy. Sorry. I took all of the mandatory courses, and in fact I also took all of the other ones on the ICANN Learn Web site too, in order to find out what was out there. It took me no more than an hour per course on the non mandatory ones, namely because in cases where I knew the topic well I either fast forwarded the video segments, or ran it at a higher speed than the original. I even ended up sending dozens of corrections to fix the courses to ICANN Learn staff. And lo and behold, I actually came across some real nuggets where I learnt something - and this has completed my education, where I can now comment on more topics that I better understand than before, in the public consultation process. And yes, I am really happy that I took the courses, because I enjoy learning more stuff, and I did. So 5 x 1 hour = 5 hours. The Group that had to focus on Capacity Building asked each other: is it reasonable to ask a volunteer to spend 5 hours on a course within the length of 1 month? And the answer was YES. This could be done in chunks of 15 minutes, if wanted. It was really not a real workload. Now I am reading many emails from many people about them not being able to complete the courses in time. Well, there were also the Webinars, as an even easier alternative. I am sorry this has taken out some people, but I would have expected a better and more positive response from seasoned participants. My outlook in life is that I am never confident enough to think that I do not require a refresher course - because the world moves on and I cannot rely solely on my past knowledge.
Kindest regards,
Olivier
On 11/07/2019 21:34, Vanda Scartezini wrote:
Being in ICANN for around 20 years and have been using the e-learning courses for long time in capacitation to others, I was one that felt no real need to attend all courses or webinar.
But I did all those, because rules in a worldwide selection are there to be followed, no exception shall be made if there was a selection criteria.
I am sorry not to have well prepared people attending ATLAS III, but I see no point in complain against the rules clearer stated before the beginning of the process.
best to all
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*From: *At-Large <at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> on behalf of John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> *Date: *Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 15:02 *To: *Humberto Carrasco <hcarrasco@cmsz.cl> *Cc: *'At-Large Worldwide' <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> *Subject: *Re: [At-Large] Fwd: ATLASIII Participation
Indeed
On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 1:01 PM Humberto Carrasco <hcarrasco@cmsz.cl <mailto:hcarrasco@cmsz.cl>> wrote:
Dear John,
Please, do not forget that webinars were an alternative of online courses.
Regards
Enviado desde mi iPhone
El 11-07-2019, a la(s) 13:55, John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com <mailto:jlaprise@gmail.com>> escribió:
Hi Evan,
Simply put, it wasn't about you.
The program committee, ALAC and the selection committee agreed that participation in the webinars was a hard requirement. Full stop.
Making exceptions would have opened a can of worms we decided to leave sealed, for better or worse.
Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D.
On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 12:49 PM Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org <mailto:evan@telly.org>> wrote:
Hi Judith.
Yes, I applied before the deadline. I committed to take the "how does ICANN work" courses but apparently didn't finish them in time. So apparently I have not sufficiently demonstrated that I understand how ALAC operates within ICANN.
(BTW, thouse ICANN learn courses are all aimed at registrants' PoV -- they miss much that is important to end users -- ie, At-Large. But, according to the selection committee, I don't know enough about this kind of thing.)
- Evan
On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 at 13:28, Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com <mailto:judith@jhellerstein.com>> wrote:
HI Evan,
Did you apply? I was not on the evaluating team but as I understand it there were very few applications from NARALO
Best,
Judith
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On 7/11/2019 1:19 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote:
Having been rejected from participating because I would have been such a tourist, I have no comment.
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Dear Christian, While I sat on Atlas II eating my nails because of the useless discussions in my RALO (and I sat next to Alejandro in the somber cellar of a very strange London building in the middle of the summer instead of taking a vacation as the present chair of LACRALO seems to suggest) and maybe because Costa Rica won against Italy in the World Cup in the second round (England had already left the party) I remember London's Summer of 2014 fondly and I don't share many of your somber perspectives for this next ATLAS meeting: As far as ICANN is concerned, it has made more room for ALAC than ever before. ALAC is a full member of the empowered community with all responsibilities that go with it. ALAC has been invited to Co-Chair a PDP in the issue of geographic names, which for some of represent an opportunity to defend cultural, linguistic and other important issues for internet users (the fact that Governments and ccTLDs don'r want to give up their prerogatives is another issue). ALAC got direct representation in the ePDP on so far the most important issue for all internet users: personal data privacy. ALAC seems to be reacting in the right direction by consolidating its policy work in one single group, that is testing the possibility of a clear and prioritized policy agenda. It is true that ALAC seems less attractive for the younger generation of fellows interested in real policy and users, as I believe we have made a better use of their volunteering, brains and ideas in smaller groups directly focused on policy work (disclaimer: I'm now the NPOC Policy Chair and see great interest support from talented young fellows :). As far as the final (non-registrant) user is concerned, it has a nice living at the second level of a few platforms, using randomly assigned IMEI serials for their devices, randomly assigned numbers and SIM cards from the ISP providers and free email accounts from their favorite platforms. And those platforms are selling their personal and usage data, and even the US Government is penalizing them for that (FB Analytica case) ........Now if you really worry about them, I invite you on Saturday in Montreal to hear from one of our young stars in NPOC on his project to create conscience for the final user in the new GDPR framework. He presented this ideas to ALAC in Japan already and the initial echo was really good. it is all about new ideas and un-prejudiced work Now let's talk about ALACs (lack of or new) focus on (which) of the final users! If ALAC can't position the final users issue with the DNS in the right context, addressing many of the structural and operational issues why there is such a large bridge between registrants and passive users nobody will. The DNS is flexible enough to make room for IoT. The DNS is flexible enough to offer its resources for private networks. And it both cases it might be useful even if it does not resolve the addresses in ICANNs servers. So, it is up to US, the ALAC community to focus and see if the DNS can also serve the needs of the final user in terms of privacy and security with the APPROPRIATE intermediaries. Maybe we have not looked for them. Maybe they don't exist yet. But in the same manner Registries and Registrants have blurred their distinction to face the new market conditions, there is ample space for new combinations in the system. Many more people would be interested in participating in ALAC/ATLAS, if we could spend less time in the definition of final users and build those bridges and create this new business models with the young and enthusiastic generation. It is not that difficult for me to look forward positively to ATLAS III to grab for new opportunities (even if I missed the webinars, but will catch up before I get there, as I promised to ALAc's Chair already). I wish you all a nice Sunday! --- Carlos Raúl Gutiérrez carlosraul@gutierrez.se +506 8837 7176 Aparatado 1571-1000 COSTA RICA El 2019-07-14 07:15, Christian de Larrinaga escribió:
Dear Roberto
That is a lovely reply. But you are in a better position to answer your question than I or someone else closer to ICANN today. I hope you don't think I was referring to myself as that 1 person you so accurately fathomed from my inadvertently framed formula obfuscation! ;-)
Although I hugely admire the folk working as At Large for trying to promote a user interest in the ICANN melee. It is not working I fear.
Who funds At Large? How does At Large operate and how do its representatives get funded? Who controls the remit for that funding?
ICANN does as I understand it.
I remember being party to a past President of ICANN exclaim offstage "But we don't do that!" when he asked a friend what to talk about and was advised to mention ICANN's role for Internet users . He went up and talked about the role for Internet users anyway. It was an At Large gathering after all.
As I said before I don't know Atlas or what it is trying to do. I am not against training or knowledge or expertise far from it. But I worry that ICANN has always been rather good at introducing hurdles, hoops and complexity and now it seems qualifications limited by who can participate in gaining them to further erode engagement by Internet users.
That is why I poked my keyboard above the parapet once more to test the waters.
The issue around the Internet user is not theoretical. It is real because in the Internet the user is at the edge of the network and that is where both the intelligence and the decision control surface for connectivity between end points has to lie.
Everything else in the middle is just routing across diverse infrastructures to optimise that connectivity.
Everything done in the technical community should be to assist in optimising that connectivity and broadening the application capacity and capabilities between end points.
So what am I trying to say? Internet was developed by a focus from the bottom to the top or rather from the network edge to the network edge at the other side.
Yet institutionally over the last couple of decades the discussion has excluded the network edge and moved towards intermediaries.
Internet users are not represented in IANA, RIRs or in LIRs - intermediaries are. Internet users are not represented in tld registries nor in registrars. - intermediaries are. Internet users are not represented in ISPs or ISP associations or IXPs - intermediaries are Internet users are not represented in Platforms / application service providers. - no one but the platform owner is. increasingly Internet users are not represented in Standards or Specification recommendations - intermediaries are, as unsurprisingly given my list above they are defining the service design for users rather than users themselves.
Even the development stacks albeit open sourced are largely shovelled out of the doors of the intermediary platforms ready made to bolster and extend their unfair advantage in the "cloud".
For instance the UK Internet Service Provider Association last week voted Mozilla an Internet villain for its promotion of DNS over HTTPS. The public ridicule of that amongst aware users forced a climb down by the end of the week. But that was because of the bad public PR created by the volume of approbium. It was not about detailed process discussion in an intermediary technical policy implementation body like ICANN. No Atlas or at large type process has shown itself effective in knocking such nonsenses back.
Yet in private and behind closed doors will ISPs continue their campaign to stop DoH? Of course. They are drafting Internet drafts now to allow ISPs to negate a user's use of DoH across their networks.
Now how much of this user space can At Large by being an ICANN only body really address?
I don't see the scale required being nearly met by focussing on ICANN. I worry that the concentration of energy and focus on ICANN institutionally is increasingly a distraction that too many good people who can make a difference for Internet users are suckered into.
What is needed is an Internet user focus across the entire stack end to end.
Christian
Roberto Gaetano wrote: Hi Christian, A couple of comments. While I may agree with you that ICAN is by and large insufficient as a forum where the users' voice is represented, I cannot think of another venue where we could have a different situation. If you have an idea, please share it. As a mathematician, I also have some perplexity on your estimates. 99.99999999% of people unaware of ICANN means that only 0.00000001% of the world population, estimated at below 10 billions, is aware. 0.00000001% of the population is barely 1 individual. My question is: "Who is this only individual on earth that believes that ICANN matters?" 😜 Cheers, Roberto
On 12.07.2019, at 14:53, Christian de Larrinaga <cdel@firsthand.net> wrote:
In no way to detract from any point you are making. But this is the first I've heard about ATLAS participation or these ICANN courses. I also have no idea whether this matters in the slightest.
I suspect I am within a mere 99.99999999% of the Internet userbase on that. I would also argue that I am probably much more aware of ICANN than most Internet users.
This leads me to feel that ICANN is not an appropriate venue to represent my interests or views.
C
Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond wrote: Dear Vanda,
thank you - that is exactly what I wanted to say. I'll come clean: in the preparation phase, I pushed for everyone to follow the same courses for two reasons:
1. Making sure that everybody had reached a high enough level of knowledge by the time we get to Montreal, that we do not end up wasting time on explaining how, for example, the GNSO works during the precious time that we will have face to face. I actually think that learning about ICANN this way is a real benefit to end users - it is vital knowledge needed to evolve in this environment. 2. Making sure that other people in the group, the seasoned members of At-Large, knew what level of knowledge everyone was expected to achieve prior to the meeting, so that we do not end up with a discussion in Montréal that involves 15 expert members of the community and the rest not understanding what the heck they are talking about.
Whilst I sympathize with people like Evan who have not been selected, the complaints about the ICANN learn courses being too long and a waste of time and not being bothered to finish them do not have my sympathy. Sorry. I took all of the mandatory courses, and in fact I also took all of the other ones on the ICANN Learn Web site too, in order to find out what was out there. It took me no more than an hour per course on the non mandatory ones, namely because in cases where I knew the topic well I either fast forwarded the video segments, or ran it at a higher speed than the original. I even ended up sending dozens of corrections to fix the courses to ICANN Learn staff. And lo and behold, I actually came across some real nuggets where I learnt something - and this has completed my education, where I can now comment on more topics that I better understand than before, in the public consultation process. And yes, I am really happy that I took the courses, because I enjoy learning more stuff, and I did. So 5 x 1 hour = 5 hours. The Group that had to focus on Capacity Building asked each other: is it reasonable to ask a volunteer to spend 5 hours on a course within the length of 1 month? And the answer was YES. This could be done in chunks of 15 minutes, if wanted. It was really not a real workload. Now I am reading many emails from many people about them not being able to complete the courses in time. Well, there were also the Webinars, as an even easier alternative. I am sorry this has taken out some people, but I would have expected a better and more positive response from seasoned participants. My outlook in life is that I am never confident enough to think that I do not require a refresher course - because the world moves on and I cannot rely solely on my past knowledge.
Kindest regards,
Olivier
On 11/07/2019 21:34, Vanda Scartezini wrote: Being in ICANN for around 20 years and have been using the e-learning courses for long time in capacitation to others, I was one that felt no real need to attend all courses or webinar.
But I did all those, because rules in a worldwide selection are there to be followed, no exception shall be made if there was a selection criteria.
I am sorry not to have well prepared people attending ATLAS III, but I see no point in complain against the rules clearer stated before the beginning of the process.
best to all
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*From: *At-Large <at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> on behalf of John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> *Date: *Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 15:02 *To: *Humberto Carrasco <hcarrasco@cmsz.cl> *Cc: *'At-Large Worldwide' <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> *Subject: *Re: [At-Large] Fwd: ATLASIII Participation
Indeed
On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 1:01 PM Humberto Carrasco <hcarrasco@cmsz.cl <mailto:hcarrasco@cmsz.cl>> wrote:
Dear John,
Please, do not forget that webinars were an alternative of online courses.
Regards
Enviado desde mi iPhone
El 11-07-2019, a la(s) 13:55, John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com <mailto:jlaprise@gmail.com>> escribió:
Hi Evan,
Simply put, it wasn't about you.
The program committee, ALAC and the selection committee agreed that participation in the webinars was a hard requirement. Full stop.
Making exceptions would have opened a can of worms we decided to leave sealed, for better or worse.
Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D.
On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 12:49 PM Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org <mailto:evan@telly.org>> wrote:
Hi Judith.
Yes, I applied before the deadline. I committed to take the "how does ICANN work" courses but apparently didn't finish them in time. So apparently I have not sufficiently demonstrated that I understand how ALAC operates within ICANN.
(BTW, thouse ICANN learn courses are all aimed at registrants' PoV -- they miss much that is important to end users -- ie, At-Large. But, according to the selection committee, I don't know enough about this kind of thing.)
- Evan
On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 at 13:28, Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com <mailto:judith@jhellerstein.com>> wrote:
HI Evan,
Did you apply? I was not on the evaluating team but as I understand it there were very few applications from NARALO
Best,
Judith
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On 7/11/2019 1:19 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote:
Having been rejected from participating because I would have been such a tourist, I have no comment.
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I so admire you and the At Large volunteers for this long standing dedication. Please understand my concern is as somebody once quite deeply involved at the early stages but wanting to keep clear air between my ISOC chapter and other engagements and finding the environment at ICANN was becoming impossible to engage with effectively I had to focus on areas which I could address more comprehensively. best wishes Christian Carlos Raul Gutierrez wrote:
Dear Christian,
While I sat on Atlas II eating my nails because of the useless discussions in my RALO (and I sat next to Alejandro in the somber cellar of a very strange London building in the middle of the summer instead of taking a vacation as the present chair of LACRALO seems to suggest) and maybe because Costa Rica won against Italy in the World Cup in the second round (England had already left the party) I remember London's Summer of 2014 fondly and I don't share many of your somber perspectives for this next ATLAS meeting:
As far as ICANN is concerned, it has made more room for ALAC than ever before. ALAC is a full member of the empowered community with all responsibilities that go with it. ALAC has been invited to Co-Chair a PDP in the issue of geographic names, which for some of represent an opportunity to defend cultural, linguistic and other important issues for internet users (the fact that Governments and ccTLDs don'r want to give up their prerogatives is another issue). ALAC got direct representation in the ePDP on so far the most important issue for all internet users: personal data privacy. ALAC seems to be reacting in the right direction by consolidating its policy work in one single group, that is testing the possibility of a clear and prioritized policy agenda. It is true that ALAC seems less attractive for the younger generation of fellows interested in real policy and users, as I believe we have made a better use of their volunteering, brains and ideas in smaller groups directly focused on policy work (disclaimer: I'm now the NPOC Policy Chair and see great interest support from talented young fellows :).
As far as the final (non-registrant) user is concerned, it has a nice living at the second level of a few platforms, using randomly assigned IMEI serials for their devices, randomly assigned numbers and SIM cards from the ISP providers and free email accounts from their favorite platforms. And those platforms are selling their personal and usage data, and even the US Government is penalizing them for that (FB Analytica case) ........Now if you really worry about them, I invite you on Saturday in Montreal to hear from one of our young stars in NPOC on his project to create conscience for the final user in the new GDPR framework. He presented this ideas to ALAC in Japan already and the initial echo was really good. it is all about new ideas and un-prejudiced work
Now let's talk about ALACs (lack of or new) focus on (which) of the final users! If ALAC can't position the final users issue with the DNS in the right context, addressing many of the structural and operational issues why there is such a large bridge between registrants and passive users nobody will. The DNS is flexible enough to make room for IoT. The DNS is flexible enough to offer its resources for private networks. And it both cases it might be useful even if it does not resolve the addresses in ICANNs servers. So, it is up to US, the ALAC community to focus and see if the DNS can also serve the needs of the final user in terms of privacy and security with the *appropriate* intermediaries. Maybe we have not looked for them. Maybe they don't exist yet. But in the same manner Registries and Registrants have blurred their distinction to face the new market conditions, there is ample space for new combinations in the system. Many more people would be interested in participating in ALAC/ATLAS, if we could spend less time in the definition of final users and build those bridges and create this new business models with the young and enthusiastic generation.
It is not that difficult for me to look forward positively to ATLAS III to grab for new opportunities (even if I missed the webinars, but will catch up before I get there, as I promised to ALAc's Chair already). I wish you all a nice Sunday!
--- Carlos Raúl Gutiérrez carlosraul@gutierrez.se <mailto:carlosraul@gutierrez.se> +506 8837 7176 Aparatado 1571-1000 COSTA RICA
El 2019-07-14 07:15, Christian de Larrinaga escribió:
Dear Roberto
That is a lovely reply. But you are in a better position to answer your question than I or someone else closer to ICANN today. I hope you don't think I was referring to myself as that 1 person you so accurately fathomed from my inadvertently framed formula obfuscation! ;-)
Although I hugely admire the folk working as At Large for trying to promote a user interest in the ICANN melee. It is not working I fear.
Who funds At Large? How does At Large operate and how do its representatives get funded? Who controls the remit for that funding?
ICANN does as I understand it.
I remember being party to a past President of ICANN exclaim offstage "But we don't do that!" when he asked a friend what to talk about and was advised to mention ICANN's role for Internet users . He went up and talked about the role for Internet users anyway. It was an At Large gathering after all.
As I said before I don't know Atlas or what it is trying to do. I am not against training or knowledge or expertise far from it. But I worry that ICANN has always been rather good at introducing hurdles, hoops and complexity and now it seems qualifications limited by who can participate in gaining them to further erode engagement by Internet users.
That is why I poked my keyboard above the parapet once more to test the waters.
The issue around the Internet user is not theoretical. It is real because in the Internet the user is at the edge of the network and that is where both the intelligence and the decision control surface for connectivity between end points has to lie.
Everything else in the middle is just routing across diverse infrastructures to optimise that connectivity.
Everything done in the technical community should be to assist in optimising that connectivity and broadening the application capacity and capabilities between end points.
So what am I trying to say? Internet was developed by a focus from the bottom to the top or rather from the network edge to the network edge at the other side.
Yet institutionally over the last couple of decades the discussion has excluded the network edge and moved towards intermediaries.
Internet users are not represented in IANA, RIRs or in LIRs - intermediaries are. Internet users are not represented in tld registries nor in registrars. - intermediaries are. Internet users are not represented in ISPs or ISP associations or IXPs - intermediaries are Internet users are not represented in Platforms / application service providers. - no one but the platform owner is. increasingly Internet users are not represented in Standards or Specification recommendations - intermediaries are, as unsurprisingly given my list above they are defining the service design for users rather than users themselves.
Even the development stacks albeit open sourced are largely shovelled out of the doors of the intermediary platforms ready made to bolster and extend their unfair advantage in the "cloud".
For instance the UK Internet Service Provider Association last week voted Mozilla an Internet villain for its promotion of DNS over HTTPS. The public ridicule of that amongst aware users forced a climb down by the end of the week. But that was because of the bad public PR created by the volume of approbium. It was not about detailed process discussion in an intermediary technical policy implementation body like ICANN. No Atlas or at large type process has shown itself effective in knocking such nonsenses back.
Yet in private and behind closed doors will ISPs continue their campaign to stop DoH? Of course. They are drafting Internet drafts now to allow ISPs to negate a user's use of DoH across their networks.
Now how much of this user space can At Large by being an ICANN only body really address?
I don't see the scale required being nearly met by focussing on ICANN. I worry that the concentration of energy and focus on ICANN institutionally is increasingly a distraction that too many good people who can make a difference for Internet users are suckered into.
What is needed is an Internet user focus across the entire stack end to end.
Christian
Roberto Gaetano wrote:
Hi Christian, A couple of comments. While I may agree with you that ICAN is by and large insufficient as a forum where the users' voice is represented, I cannot think of another venue where we could have a different situation. If you have an idea, please share it. As a mathematician, I also have some perplexity on your estimates. 99.99999999% of people unaware of ICANN means that only 0.00000001% of the world population, estimated at below 10 billions, is aware. 0.00000001% of the population is barely 1 individual. My question is: "Who is this only individual on earth that believes that ICANN matters?" 😜 Cheers, Roberto
On 12.07.2019, at 14:53, Christian de Larrinaga <cdel@firsthand.net <mailto:cdel@firsthand.net>> wrote:
In no way to detract from any point you are making. But this is the first I've heard about ATLAS participation or these ICANN courses. I also have no idea whether this matters in the slightest.
I suspect I am within a mere 99.99999999% of the Internet userbase on that. I would also argue that I am probably much more aware of ICANN than most Internet users.
This leads me to feel that ICANN is not an appropriate venue to represent my interests or views.
C
Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond wrote:
Dear Vanda,
thank you - that is exactly what I wanted to say. I'll come clean: in the preparation phase, I pushed for everyone to follow the same courses for two reasons:
1. Making sure that everybody had reached a high enough level of knowledge by the time we get to Montreal, that we do not end up wasting time on explaining how, for example, the GNSO works during the precious time that we will have face to face. I actually think that learning about ICANN this way is a real benefit to end users - it is vital knowledge needed to evolve in this environment. 2. Making sure that other people in the group, the seasoned members of At-Large, knew what level of knowledge everyone was expected to achieve prior to the meeting, so that we do not end up with a discussion in Montréal that involves 15 expert members of the community and the rest not understanding what the heck they are talking about.
Whilst I sympathize with people like Evan who have not been selected, the complaints about the ICANN learn courses being too long and a waste of time and not being bothered to finish them do not have my sympathy. Sorry. I took all of the mandatory courses, and in fact I also took all of the other ones on the ICANN Learn Web site too, in order to find out what was out there. It took me no more than an hour per course on the non mandatory ones, namely because in cases where I knew the topic well I either fast forwarded the video segments, or ran it at a higher speed than the original. I even ended up sending dozens of corrections to fix the courses to ICANN Learn staff. And lo and behold, I actually came across some real nuggets where I learnt something - and this has completed my education, where I can now comment on more topics that I better understand than before, in the public consultation process. And yes, I am really happy that I took the courses, because I enjoy learning more stuff, and I did. So 5 x 1 hour = 5 hours. The Group that had to focus on Capacity Building asked each other: is it reasonable to ask a volunteer to spend 5 hours on a course within the length of 1 month? And the answer was YES. This could be done in chunks of 15 minutes, if wanted. It was really not a real workload. Now I am reading many emails from many people about them not being able to complete the courses in time. Well, there were also the Webinars, as an even easier alternative. I am sorry this has taken out some people, but I would have expected a better and more positive response from seasoned participants. My outlook in life is that I am never confident enough to think that I do not require a refresher course - because the world moves on and I cannot rely solely on my past knowledge.
Kindest regards,
Olivier
On 11/07/2019 21:34, Vanda Scartezini wrote:
Being in ICANN for around 20 years and have been using the e-learning courses for long time in capacitation to others, I was one that felt no real need to attend all courses or webinar.
But I did all those, because rules in a worldwide selection are there to be followed, no exception shall be made if there was a selection criteria.
I am sorry not to have well prepared people attending ATLAS III, but I see no point in complain against the rules clearer stated before the beginning of the process.
best to all
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*From: *At-Large <at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org <mailto:at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org>> on behalf of John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com <mailto:jlaprise@gmail.com>> *Date: *Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 15:02 *To: *Humberto Carrasco <hcarrasco@cmsz.cl <mailto:hcarrasco@cmsz.cl>> *Cc: *'At-Large Worldwide' <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org <mailto:at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org>> *Subject: *Re: [At-Large] Fwd: ATLASIII Participation
Indeed
On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 1:01 PM Humberto Carrasco <hcarrasco@cmsz.cl <mailto:hcarrasco@cmsz.cl> <mailto:hcarrasco@cmsz.cl <mailto:hcarrasco@cmsz.cl>>> wrote:
Dear John,
Please, do not forget that webinars were an alternative of online courses.
Regards
Enviado desde mi iPhone
El 11-07-2019, a la(s) 13:55, John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com <mailto:jlaprise@gmail.com> <mailto:jlaprise@gmail.com <mailto:jlaprise@gmail.com>>> escribió:
Hi Evan,
Simply put, it wasn't about you.
The program committee, ALAC and the selection committee agreed that participation in the webinars was a hard requirement. Full stop.
Making exceptions would have opened a can of worms we decided to leave sealed, for better or worse.
Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D.
On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 12:49 PM Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org <mailto:evan@telly.org> <mailto:evan@telly.org <mailto:evan@telly.org>>> wrote:
Hi Judith.
Yes, I applied before the deadline. I committed to take the "how does ICANN work" courses but apparently didn't finish them in time. So apparently I have not sufficiently demonstrated that I understand how ALAC operates within ICANN.
(BTW, thouse ICANN learn courses are all aimed at registrants' PoV -- they miss much that is important to end users -- ie, At-Large. But, according to the selection committee, I don't know enough about this kind of thing.)
- Evan
On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 at 13:28, Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com <mailto:judith@jhellerstein.com> <mailto:judith@jhellerstein.com <mailto:judith@jhellerstein.com>>> wrote:
HI Evan,
Did you apply? I was not on the evaluating team but as I understand it there were very few applications from NARALO
Best,
Judith
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On 7/11/2019 1:19 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote:
Having been rejected from participating because I would have been such a tourist, I have no comment.
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Dear Christian, I don’t have the answers to the many questions you ask, but I will briefly try. To the question about where the funding comes, I agree with you that ICANN puts in some “money". However, the overwhelming majority of the resources invested in ALAC are coming from the labour of the volunteers, who often even pay their way to meetings. Under whatever economic model or organisational theory developed so far, the analysis will prove that the soft skills provided by the volunteers provide the essence of the “wealth" of the organization, outnumbering by far the financial resources provided by ICANN. In summary, ALAC can exist without the financial support of ICANN, but cannot exist without the people. This is an essential consideration for the analysis. While ICANN can steer a bit the direction, privileging some funding destinations over others, it cannot control the flow of the mainstream. The conclusion that I draw, on which our opinions might differ, is that on the long run it is by and large irrelevant whether ICANN thinks at ALAC as windows dressing or not - what is relevant is what the ALAC team believes that we can collectively do, also because none of us is limiting our participation in Internet policy and governance activities to just ICANN, for Internet users worldwide. You correctly observe that the role of Internet users is crucial, and fear the role of the intermediaries. I share your concerns, but - as the many discussions with my good friend Karl Auerbach over at least two decades show - I am convinced that on a planetary scale representative democracy has far better chances to be achieved than direct democracy, that works well in small homogeneous communities but, IMHO, does not scale. So my problem is not how to eliminate the intermediaries, but how to drive the intermediaries to make sure that the needs and wishes of the user community are represented fairly. That is the model that many reasonably successful democracies use: we elect representatives, and try our best to address them to do the things we want them to do. Not a perfect system, but I stand behind the statement I made a couple of days ago, I do not see a better solution. So, I have used so many words to go to the detail of what I believe is our disagreement or at least divergent opinion. Funny. What a waste! But I can limit to one word my comment to your last sentence: “What is needed is an Internet user focus across the entire stack end to end”. YES! And I hope that ATLAS III will be a step in this direction. Let’s get all the brainware, the *real* resource we have, to achieve this objective. Cheers, Roberto
On 14.07.2019, at 15:15, Christian de Larrinaga <cdel@firsthand.net> wrote:
Dear Roberto
That is a lovely reply. But you are in a better position to answer your question than I or someone else closer to ICANN today. I hope you don't think I was referring to myself as that 1 person you so accurately fathomed from my inadvertently framed formula obfuscation! ;-)
Although I hugely admire the folk working as At Large for trying to promote a user interest in the ICANN melee. It is not working I fear.
Who funds At Large? How does At Large operate and how do its representatives get funded? Who controls the remit for that funding?
ICANN does as I understand it.
I remember being party to a past President of ICANN exclaim offstage "But we don't do that!" when he asked a friend what to talk about and was advised to mention ICANN's role for Internet users . He went up and talked about the role for Internet users anyway. It was an At Large gathering after all.
As I said before I don't know Atlas or what it is trying to do. I am not against training or knowledge or expertise far from it. But I worry that ICANN has always been rather good at introducing hurdles, hoops and complexity and now it seems qualifications limited by who can participate in gaining them to further erode engagement by Internet users.
That is why I poked my keyboard above the parapet once more to test the waters.
The issue around the Internet user is not theoretical. It is real because in the Internet the user is at the edge of the network and that is where both the intelligence and the decision control surface for connectivity between end points has to lie.
Everything else in the middle is just routing across diverse infrastructures to optimise that connectivity.
Everything done in the technical community should be to assist in optimising that connectivity and broadening the application capacity and capabilities between end points.
So what am I trying to say? Internet was developed by a focus from the bottom to the top or rather from the network edge to the network edge at the other side.
Yet institutionally over the last couple of decades the discussion has excluded the network edge and moved towards intermediaries.
Internet users are not represented in IANA, RIRs or in LIRs - intermediaries are. Internet users are not represented in tld registries nor in registrars. - intermediaries are. Internet users are not represented in ISPs or ISP associations or IXPs - intermediaries are Internet users are not represented in Platforms / application service providers. - no one but the platform owner is. increasingly Internet users are not represented in Standards or Specification recommendations - intermediaries are, as unsurprisingly given my list above they are defining the service design for users rather than users themselves.
Even the development stacks albeit open sourced are largely shovelled out of the doors of the intermediary platforms ready made to bolster and extend their unfair advantage in the "cloud".
For instance the UK Internet Service Provider Association last week voted Mozilla an Internet villain for its promotion of DNS over HTTPS. The public ridicule of that amongst aware users forced a climb down by the end of the week. But that was because of the bad public PR created by the volume of approbium. It was not about detailed process discussion in an intermediary technical policy implementation body like ICANN. No Atlas or at large type process has shown itself effective in knocking such nonsenses back.
Yet in private and behind closed doors will ISPs continue their campaign to stop DoH? Of course. They are drafting Internet drafts now to allow ISPs to negate a user's use of DoH across their networks.
Now how much of this user space can At Large by being an ICANN only body really address?
I don't see the scale required being nearly met by focussing on ICANN. I worry that the concentration of energy and focus on ICANN institutionally is increasingly a distraction that too many good people who can make a difference for Internet users are suckered into.
What is needed is an Internet user focus across the entire stack end to end.
Christian
Roberto Gaetano wrote:
Hi Christian, A couple of comments. While I may agree with you that ICAN is by and large insufficient as a forum where the users’ voice is represented, I cannot think of another venue where we could have a different situation. If you have an idea, please share it. As a mathematician, I also have some perplexity on your estimates. 99.99999999% of people unaware of ICANN means that only 0.00000001% of the world population, estimated at below 10 billions, is aware. 0.00000001% of the population is barely 1 individual. My question is: “Who is this only individual on earth that believes that ICANN matters?” 😜 Cheers, Roberto
On 12.07.2019, at 14:53, Christian de Larrinaga <cdel@firsthand.net> wrote:
In no way to detract from any point you are making. But this is the first I've heard about ATLAS participation or these ICANN courses. I also have no idea whether this matters in the slightest.
I suspect I am within a mere 99.99999999% of the Internet userbase on that. I would also argue that I am probably much more aware of ICANN than most Internet users.
This leads me to feel that ICANN is not an appropriate venue to represent my interests or views.
C
Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond wrote:
Dear Vanda,
thank you - that is exactly what I wanted to say. I'll come clean: in the preparation phase, I pushed for everyone to follow the same courses for two reasons:
1. Making sure that everybody had reached a high enough level of knowledge by the time we get to Montreal, that we do not end up wasting time on explaining how, for example, the GNSO works during the precious time that we will have face to face. I actually think that learning about ICANN this way is a real benefit to end users - it is vital knowledge needed to evolve in this environment. 2. Making sure that other people in the group, the seasoned members of At-Large, knew what level of knowledge everyone was expected to achieve prior to the meeting, so that we do not end up with a discussion in Montréal that involves 15 expert members of the community and the rest not understanding what the heck they are talking about.
Whilst I sympathize with people like Evan who have not been selected, the complaints about the ICANN learn courses being too long and a waste of time and not being bothered to finish them do not have my sympathy. Sorry. I took all of the mandatory courses, and in fact I also took all of the other ones on the ICANN Learn Web site too, in order to find out what was out there. It took me no more than an hour per course on the non mandatory ones, namely because in cases where I knew the topic well I either fast forwarded the video segments, or ran it at a higher speed than the original. I even ended up sending dozens of corrections to fix the courses to ICANN Learn staff. And lo and behold, I actually came across some real nuggets where I learnt something - and this has completed my education, where I can now comment on more topics that I better understand than before, in the public consultation process. And yes, I am really happy that I took the courses, because I enjoy learning more stuff, and I did. So 5 x 1 hour = 5 hours. The Group that had to focus on Capacity Building asked each other: is it reasonable to ask a volunteer to spend 5 hours on a course within the length of 1 month? And the answer was YES. This could be done in chunks of 15 minutes, if wanted. It was really not a real workload. Now I am reading many emails from many people about them not being able to complete the courses in time. Well, there were also the Webinars, as an even easier alternative. I am sorry this has taken out some people, but I would have expected a better and more positive response from seasoned participants. My outlook in life is that I am never confident enough to think that I do not require a refresher course - because the world moves on and I cannot rely solely on my past knowledge.
Kindest regards,
Olivier
On 11/07/2019 21:34, Vanda Scartezini wrote:
Being in ICANN for around 20 years and have been using the e-learning courses for long time in capacitation to others, I was one that felt no real need to attend all courses or webinar.
But I did all those, because rules in a worldwide selection are there to be followed, no exception shall be made if there was a selection criteria.
I am sorry not to have well prepared people attending ATLAS III, but I see no point in complain against the rules clearer stated before the beginning of the process.
best to all
*/Vanda Scartezini/*
*/Polo Consultores Associados/*
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*/01311-200- Sao Paulo, SP, Brazil/*
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*From: *At-Large <at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> on behalf of John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> *Date: *Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 15:02 *To: *Humberto Carrasco <hcarrasco@cmsz.cl> *Cc: *'At-Large Worldwide' <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> *Subject: *Re: [At-Large] Fwd: ATLASIII Participation
Indeed
On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 1:01 PM Humberto Carrasco <hcarrasco@cmsz.cl <mailto:hcarrasco@cmsz.cl>> wrote:
Dear John,
Please, do not forget that webinars were an alternative of online courses.
Regards
Enviado desde mi iPhone
El 11-07-2019, a la(s) 13:55, John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com <mailto:jlaprise@gmail.com>> escribió:
Hi Evan,
Simply put, it wasn't about you.
The program committee, ALAC and the selection committee agreed that participation in the webinars was a hard requirement. Full stop.
Making exceptions would have opened a can of worms we decided to leave sealed, for better or worse.
Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D.
On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 12:49 PM Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org <mailto:evan@telly.org>> wrote:
Hi Judith.
Yes, I applied before the deadline. I committed to take the "how does ICANN work" courses but apparently didn't finish them in time. So apparently I have not sufficiently demonstrated that I understand how ALAC operates within ICANN.
(BTW, thouse ICANN learn courses are all aimed at registrants' PoV -- they miss much that is important to end users -- ie, At-Large. But, according to the selection committee, I don't know enough about this kind of thing.)
- Evan
On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 at 13:28, Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com <mailto:judith@jhellerstein.com>> wrote:
HI Evan,
Did you apply? I was not on the evaluating team but as I understand it there were very few applications from NARALO
Best,
Judith
_________________________________________________________________________
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On 7/11/2019 1:19 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote:
Having been rejected from participating because I would have been such a tourist, I have no comment.
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Dear Roberto, I agree with so much with what you say and do. But I do worry when you talk about democracy in context of managing Internet resources. ICANN should not be a democracy it should be a focused manager of technical dimensions only for a limited array of Internet resources. Actually the first iteration of ICANN worried me because it politicised the user role without establishing how a clear mandate could be created let alone maintained. It also treated the entire management of these resources as a political football. The ICANN Cairo meeting in 2000 was particularly odd I recall for that reason. The problem I have with the way ICANN has evolved is that it has turned into a regulator owned and governed by the industry suppliers themselves and that also carries with it political implications. The ICANN community is not in my view the place for that "governance" policy discussion either. So I see ICANN has having lurched from one extreme to the other. The list I drew up of where users are now disintermediated by middleware is not an issue with having a supply chain for Internet services. I am very content to see a robust and profitable industry offering networks and application optimisations. My issue is that the supply chain should engage for its customers - the users - in such a way as to provide services designed for users and by users. But increasingly what has been happening is that the level of competition has been so low and the cost of moving suppliers so high that market choice is illusionary and this has led the suppliers to take great chunks out of services optimised for users and instead are optimising for themselves alone. As this happens there is no other mechanism in place to redress the balance. The DNS "industry" has become particularly poor at supporting the user whether registrants or users of registrants. I can't think when I last had a usable offer from Registries and registrars to input into how their service operates. This is not just an issue with the new gTLDs either. I am going to keep an eye on Atlas III in the hope I can learn something and I do hope its participants can help by becoming a channel for information, offers for comments and inputs and outputs and suggestions for what can be usefully contributed by others to it and beyond it. I hope my comments have not been too negative or discouraging. I am very aware as I think you will know of how much we all as volunteers contribute in treasure and sometimes blood in trying to achieve the right outcomes. thank you for your responses and patience. best wishes Christian Roberto Gaetano wrote:
Dear Christian, I don’t have the answers to the many questions you ask, but I will briefly try. To the question about where the funding comes, I agree with you that ICANN puts in some “money". However, the overwhelming majority of the resources invested in ALAC are coming from the labour of the volunteers, who often even pay their way to meetings. Under whatever economic model or organisational theory developed so far, the analysis will prove that the soft skills provided by the volunteers provide the essence of the “wealth" of the organization, outnumbering by far the financial resources provided by ICANN. In summary, ALAC can exist without the financial support of ICANN, but cannot exist without the people. This is an essential consideration for the analysis. While ICANN can steer a bit the direction, privileging some funding destinations over others, it cannot control the flow of the mainstream. The conclusion that I draw, on which our opinions might differ, is that on the long run it is by and large irrelevant whether ICANN thinks at ALAC as windows dressing or not - what is relevant is what the ALAC team believes that we can collectively do, also because none of us is limiting our participation in Internet policy and governance activities to just ICANN, for Internet users worldwide. You correctly observe that the role of Internet users is crucial, and fear the role of the intermediaries. I share your concerns, but - as the many discussions with my good friend Karl Auerbach over at least two decades show - I am convinced that on a planetary scale representative democracy has far better chances to be achieved than direct democracy, that works well in small homogeneous communities but, IMHO, does not scale. So my problem is not how to eliminate the intermediaries, but how to drive the intermediaries to make sure that the needs and wishes of the user community are represented fairly. That is the model that many reasonably successful democracies use: we elect representatives, and try our best to address them to do the things we want them to do. Not a perfect system, but I stand behind the statement I made a couple of days ago, I do not see a better solution. So, I have used so many words to go to the detail of what I believe is our disagreement or at least divergent opinion. Funny. What a waste! But I can limit to one word my comment to your last sentence: “What is needed is an Internet user focus across the entire stack end to end”. YES! And I hope that ATLAS III will be a step in this direction. Let’s get all the brainware, the *real* resource we have, to achieve this objective. Cheers, Roberto
On 14.07.2019, at 15:15, Christian de Larrinaga <cdel@firsthand.net> wrote:
Dear Roberto
That is a lovely reply. But you are in a better position to answer your question than I or someone else closer to ICANN today. I hope you don't think I was referring to myself as that 1 person you so accurately fathomed from my inadvertently framed formula obfuscation! ;-)
Although I hugely admire the folk working as At Large for trying to promote a user interest in the ICANN melee. It is not working I fear.
Who funds At Large? How does At Large operate and how do its representatives get funded? Who controls the remit for that funding?
ICANN does as I understand it.
I remember being party to a past President of ICANN exclaim offstage "But we don't do that!" when he asked a friend what to talk about and was advised to mention ICANN's role for Internet users . He went up and talked about the role for Internet users anyway. It was an At Large gathering after all.
As I said before I don't know Atlas or what it is trying to do. I am not against training or knowledge or expertise far from it. But I worry that ICANN has always been rather good at introducing hurdles, hoops and complexity and now it seems qualifications limited by who can participate in gaining them to further erode engagement by Internet users.
That is why I poked my keyboard above the parapet once more to test the waters.
The issue around the Internet user is not theoretical. It is real because in the Internet the user is at the edge of the network and that is where both the intelligence and the decision control surface for connectivity between end points has to lie.
Everything else in the middle is just routing across diverse infrastructures to optimise that connectivity.
Everything done in the technical community should be to assist in optimising that connectivity and broadening the application capacity and capabilities between end points.
So what am I trying to say? Internet was developed by a focus from the bottom to the top or rather from the network edge to the network edge at the other side.
Yet institutionally over the last couple of decades the discussion has excluded the network edge and moved towards intermediaries.
Internet users are not represented in IANA, RIRs or in LIRs - intermediaries are. Internet users are not represented in tld registries nor in registrars. - intermediaries are. Internet users are not represented in ISPs or ISP associations or IXPs - intermediaries are Internet users are not represented in Platforms / application service providers. - no one but the platform owner is. increasingly Internet users are not represented in Standards or Specification recommendations - intermediaries are, as unsurprisingly given my list above they are defining the service design for users rather than users themselves.
Even the development stacks albeit open sourced are largely shovelled out of the doors of the intermediary platforms ready made to bolster and extend their unfair advantage in the "cloud".
For instance the UK Internet Service Provider Association last week voted Mozilla an Internet villain for its promotion of DNS over HTTPS. The public ridicule of that amongst aware users forced a climb down by the end of the week. But that was because of the bad public PR created by the volume of approbium. It was not about detailed process discussion in an intermediary technical policy implementation body like ICANN. No Atlas or at large type process has shown itself effective in knocking such nonsenses back.
Yet in private and behind closed doors will ISPs continue their campaign to stop DoH? Of course. They are drafting Internet drafts now to allow ISPs to negate a user's use of DoH across their networks.
Now how much of this user space can At Large by being an ICANN only body really address?
I don't see the scale required being nearly met by focussing on ICANN. I worry that the concentration of energy and focus on ICANN institutionally is increasingly a distraction that too many good people who can make a difference for Internet users are suckered into.
What is needed is an Internet user focus across the entire stack end to end.
Christian
Roberto Gaetano wrote:
Hi Christian, A couple of comments. While I may agree with you that ICAN is by and large insufficient as a forum where the users’ voice is represented, I cannot think of another venue where we could have a different situation. If you have an idea, please share it. As a mathematician, I also have some perplexity on your estimates. 99.99999999% of people unaware of ICANN means that only 0.00000001% of the world population, estimated at below 10 billions, is aware. 0.00000001% of the population is barely 1 individual. My question is: “Who is this only individual on earth that believes that ICANN matters?” 😜 Cheers, Roberto
On 12.07.2019, at 14:53, Christian de Larrinaga <cdel@firsthand.net> wrote:
In no way to detract from any point you are making. But this is the first I've heard about ATLAS participation or these ICANN courses. I also have no idea whether this matters in the slightest.
I suspect I am within a mere 99.99999999% of the Internet userbase on that. I would also argue that I am probably much more aware of ICANN than most Internet users.
This leads me to feel that ICANN is not an appropriate venue to represent my interests or views.
C
Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond wrote:
Dear Vanda,
thank you - that is exactly what I wanted to say. I'll come clean: in the preparation phase, I pushed for everyone to follow the same courses for two reasons:
1. Making sure that everybody had reached a high enough level of knowledge by the time we get to Montreal, that we do not end up wasting time on explaining how, for example, the GNSO works during the precious time that we will have face to face. I actually think that learning about ICANN this way is a real benefit to end users - it is vital knowledge needed to evolve in this environment. 2. Making sure that other people in the group, the seasoned members of At-Large, knew what level of knowledge everyone was expected to achieve prior to the meeting, so that we do not end up with a discussion in Montréal that involves 15 expert members of the community and the rest not understanding what the heck they are talking about.
Whilst I sympathize with people like Evan who have not been selected, the complaints about the ICANN learn courses being too long and a waste of time and not being bothered to finish them do not have my sympathy. Sorry. I took all of the mandatory courses, and in fact I also took all of the other ones on the ICANN Learn Web site too, in order to find out what was out there. It took me no more than an hour per course on the non mandatory ones, namely because in cases where I knew the topic well I either fast forwarded the video segments, or ran it at a higher speed than the original. I even ended up sending dozens of corrections to fix the courses to ICANN Learn staff. And lo and behold, I actually came across some real nuggets where I learnt something - and this has completed my education, where I can now comment on more topics that I better understand than before, in the public consultation process. And yes, I am really happy that I took the courses, because I enjoy learning more stuff, and I did. So 5 x 1 hour = 5 hours. The Group that had to focus on Capacity Building asked each other: is it reasonable to ask a volunteer to spend 5 hours on a course within the length of 1 month? And the answer was YES. This could be done in chunks of 15 minutes, if wanted. It was really not a real workload. Now I am reading many emails from many people about them not being able to complete the courses in time. Well, there were also the Webinars, as an even easier alternative. I am sorry this has taken out some people, but I would have expected a better and more positive response from seasoned participants. My outlook in life is that I am never confident enough to think that I do not require a refresher course - because the world moves on and I cannot rely solely on my past knowledge.
Kindest regards,
Olivier
On 11/07/2019 21:34, Vanda Scartezini wrote:
Being in ICANN for around 20 years and have been using the e-learning courses for long time in capacitation to others, I was one that felt no real need to attend all courses or webinar.
But I did all those, because rules in a worldwide selection are there to be followed, no exception shall be made if there was a selection criteria.
I am sorry not to have well prepared people attending ATLAS III, but I see no point in complain against the rules clearer stated before the beginning of the process.
best to all
*/Vanda Scartezini/*
*/Polo Consultores Associados/*
*/Av. Paulista 1159, cj 1004/*
*/01311-200- Sao Paulo, SP, Brazil/*
*/Land Line: +55 11 3266.6253/*
*/Mobile: + 55 11 98181.1464 /*
*/Sorry for any typos. /*
*From: *At-Large <at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> on behalf of John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> *Date: *Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 15:02 *To: *Humberto Carrasco <hcarrasco@cmsz.cl> *Cc: *'At-Large Worldwide' <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> *Subject: *Re: [At-Large] Fwd: ATLASIII Participation
Indeed
On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 1:01 PM Humberto Carrasco <hcarrasco@cmsz.cl <mailto:hcarrasco@cmsz.cl>> wrote:
Dear John,
Please, do not forget that webinars were an alternative of online courses.
Regards
Enviado desde mi iPhone
El 11-07-2019, a la(s) 13:55, John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com <mailto:jlaprise@gmail.com>> escribió:
Hi Evan,
Simply put, it wasn't about you.
The program committee, ALAC and the selection committee agreed that participation in the webinars was a hard requirement. Full stop.
Making exceptions would have opened a can of worms we decided to leave sealed, for better or worse.
Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D.
On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 12:49 PM Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org <mailto:evan@telly.org>> wrote:
Hi Judith.
Yes, I applied before the deadline. I committed to take the "how does ICANN work" courses but apparently didn't finish them in time. So apparently I have not sufficiently demonstrated that I understand how ALAC operates within ICANN.
(BTW, thouse ICANN learn courses are all aimed at registrants' PoV -- they miss much that is important to end users -- ie, At-Large. But, according to the selection committee, I don't know enough about this kind of thing.)
- Evan
On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 at 13:28, Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com <mailto:judith@jhellerstein.com>> wrote:
HI Evan,
Did you apply? I was not on the evaluating team but as I understand it there were very few applications from NARALO
Best,
Judith
_________________________________________________________________________
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On 7/11/2019 1:19 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote:
Having been rejected from participating because I would have been such a tourist, I have no comment.
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Dear Roberto: This reponse to Christian - another thoughtful contributor - is by far the clearest statement of your guiding philosophy. And, coincidentally, recognition of what has always been my trope; the malignant propensity to ignore in accounting the contributions of our volunteers. This missing piece, window dressing and all, is the vital link to the benefit argument and for me, the existential angst that colours everything from access to metrics thru to tools within the context of the At-Large's contribution to the ICANN agenda. For the record, there is no distance philosophically between you and I. Maybe a tad of difference about approach to solution. Mark me down a +1 here. Carlton On Sun, 14 Jul 2019, 3:24 pm Roberto Gaetano, <roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com> wrote:
Dear Christian, I don’t have the answers to the many questions you ask, but I will briefly try. To the question about where the funding comes, I agree with you that ICANN puts in some “money". However, the overwhelming majority of the resources invested in ALAC are coming from the labour of the volunteers, who often even pay their way to meetings. Under whatever economic model or organisational theory developed so far, the analysis will prove that the soft skills provided by the volunteers provide the essence of the “wealth" of the organization, outnumbering by far the financial resources provided by ICANN. In summary, ALAC can exist without the financial support of ICANN, but cannot exist without the people. This is an essential consideration for the analysis. While ICANN can steer a bit the direction, privileging some funding destinations over others, it cannot control the flow of the mainstream. The conclusion that I draw, on which our opinions might differ, is that on the long run it is by and large irrelevant whether ICANN thinks at ALAC as windows dressing or not - what is relevant is what the ALAC team believes that we can collectively do, also because none of us is limiting our participation in Internet policy and governance activities to just ICANN, for Internet users worldwide. You correctly observe that the role of Internet users is crucial, and fear the role of the intermediaries. I share your concerns, but - as the many discussions with my good friend Karl Auerbach over at least two decades show - I am convinced that on a planetary scale representative democracy has far better chances to be achieved than direct democracy, that works well in small homogeneous communities but, IMHO, does not scale. So my problem is not how to eliminate the intermediaries, but how to drive the intermediaries to make sure that the needs and wishes of the user community are represented fairly. That is the model that many reasonably successful democracies use: we elect representatives, and try our best to address them to do the things we want them to do. Not a perfect system, but I stand behind the statement I made a couple of days ago, I do not see a better solution. So, I have used so many words to go to the detail of what I believe is our disagreement or at least divergent opinion. Funny. What a waste! But I can limit to one word my comment to your last sentence: “What is needed is an Internet user focus across the entire stack end to end”. YES! And I hope that ATLAS III will be a step in this direction. Let’s get all the brainware, the *real* resource we have, to achieve this objective. Cheers, Roberto
On 14.07.2019, at 15:15, Christian de Larrinaga <cdel@firsthand.net> wrote:
Dear Roberto
That is a lovely reply. But you are in a better position to answer your question than I or someone else closer to ICANN today. I hope you don't think I was referring to myself as that 1 person you so accurately fathomed from my inadvertently framed formula obfuscation! ;-)
Although I hugely admire the folk working as At Large for trying to promote a user interest in the ICANN melee. It is not working I fear.
Who funds At Large? How does At Large operate and how do its representatives get funded? Who controls the remit for that funding?
ICANN does as I understand it.
I remember being party to a past President of ICANN exclaim offstage "But we don't do that!" when he asked a friend what to talk about and was advised to mention ICANN's role for Internet users . He went up and talked about the role for Internet users anyway. It was an At Large gathering after all.
As I said before I don't know Atlas or what it is trying to do. I am not against training or knowledge or expertise far from it. But I worry that ICANN has always been rather good at introducing hurdles, hoops and complexity and now it seems qualifications limited by who can participate in gaining them to further erode engagement by Internet users.
That is why I poked my keyboard above the parapet once more to test the waters.
The issue around the Internet user is not theoretical. It is real because in the Internet the user is at the edge of the network and that is where both the intelligence and the decision control surface for connectivity between end points has to lie.
Everything else in the middle is just routing across diverse infrastructures to optimise that connectivity.
Everything done in the technical community should be to assist in optimising that connectivity and broadening the application capacity and capabilities between end points.
So what am I trying to say? Internet was developed by a focus from the bottom to the top or rather from the network edge to the network edge at the other side.
Yet institutionally over the last couple of decades the discussion has excluded the network edge and moved towards intermediaries.
Internet users are not represented in IANA, RIRs or in LIRs - intermediaries are. Internet users are not represented in tld registries nor in registrars. - intermediaries are. Internet users are not represented in ISPs or ISP associations or IXPs - intermediaries are Internet users are not represented in Platforms / application service providers. - no one but the platform owner is. increasingly Internet users are not represented in Standards or Specification recommendations - intermediaries are, as unsurprisingly given my list above they are defining the service design for users rather than users themselves.
Even the development stacks albeit open sourced are largely shovelled out of the doors of the intermediary platforms ready made to bolster and extend their unfair advantage in the "cloud".
For instance the UK Internet Service Provider Association last week voted Mozilla an Internet villain for its promotion of DNS over HTTPS. The public ridicule of that amongst aware users forced a climb down by the end of the week. But that was because of the bad public PR created by the volume of approbium. It was not about detailed process discussion in an intermediary technical policy implementation body like ICANN. No Atlas or at large type process has shown itself effective in knocking such nonsenses back.
Yet in private and behind closed doors will ISPs continue their campaign to stop DoH? Of course. They are drafting Internet drafts now to allow ISPs to negate a user's use of DoH across their networks.
Now how much of this user space can At Large by being an ICANN only body really address?
I don't see the scale required being nearly met by focussing on ICANN. I worry that the concentration of energy and focus on ICANN institutionally is increasingly a distraction that too many good people who can make a difference for Internet users are suckered into.
What is needed is an Internet user focus across the entire stack end to end.
Christian
Roberto Gaetano wrote:
Hi Christian, A couple of comments. While I may agree with you that ICAN is by and large insufficient as a forum where the users’ voice is represented, I cannot think of another venue where we could have a different situation. If you have an idea, please share it. As a mathematician, I also have some perplexity on your estimates. 99.99999999% of people unaware of ICANN means that only 0.00000001% of the world population, estimated at below 10 billions, is aware. 0.00000001% of the population is barely 1 individual. My question is: “Who is this only individual on earth that believes that ICANN matters?” 😜 Cheers, Roberto
On 12.07.2019, at 14:53, Christian de Larrinaga <cdel@firsthand.net> wrote:
In no way to detract from any point you are making. But this is the first I've heard about ATLAS participation or these ICANN courses. I also have no idea whether this matters in the slightest.
I suspect I am within a mere 99.99999999% of the Internet userbase on that. I would also argue that I am probably much more aware of ICANN than most Internet users.
This leads me to feel that ICANN is not an appropriate venue to represent my interests or views.
C
Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond wrote:
Dear Vanda,
thank you - that is exactly what I wanted to say. I'll come clean: in the preparation phase, I pushed for everyone to follow the same courses for two reasons:
1. Making sure that everybody had reached a high enough level of knowledge by the time we get to Montreal, that we do not end up wasting time on explaining how, for example, the GNSO works during the precious time that we will have face to face. I actually think that learning about ICANN this way is a real benefit to end users - it is vital knowledge needed to evolve in this environment. 2. Making sure that other people in the group, the seasoned members of At-Large, knew what level of knowledge everyone was expected to achieve prior to the meeting, so that we do not end up with a discussion in Montréal that involves 15 expert members of the community and the rest not understanding what the heck they are talking about.
Whilst I sympathize with people like Evan who have not been selected, the complaints about the ICANN learn courses being too long and a waste of time and not being bothered to finish them do not have my sympathy. Sorry. I took all of the mandatory courses, and in fact I also took all of the other ones on the ICANN Learn Web site too, in order to find out what was out there. It took me no more than an hour per course on the non mandatory ones, namely because in cases where I knew the topic well I either fast forwarded the video segments, or ran it at a higher speed than the original. I even ended up sending dozens of corrections to fix the courses to ICANN Learn staff. And lo and behold, I actually came across some real nuggets where I learnt something - and this has completed my education, where I can now comment on more topics that I better understand than before, in the public consultation process. And yes, I am really happy that I took the courses, because I enjoy learning more stuff, and I did. So 5 x 1 hour = 5 hours. The Group that had to focus on Capacity Building asked each other: is it reasonable to ask a volunteer to spend 5 hours on a course within the length of 1 month? And the answer was YES. This could be done in chunks of 15 minutes, if wanted. It was really not a real workload. Now I am reading many emails from many people about them not being able to complete the courses in time. Well, there were also the Webinars, as an even easier alternative. I am sorry this has taken out some people, but I would have expected a better and more positive response from seasoned participants. My outlook in life is that I am never confident enough to think that I do not require a refresher course - because the world moves on and I cannot rely solely on my past knowledge.
Kindest regards,
Olivier
On 11/07/2019 21:34, Vanda Scartezini wrote:
Being in ICANN for around 20 years and have been using the e-learning courses for long time in capacitation to others, I was one that felt no real need to attend all courses or webinar.
But I did all those, because rules in a worldwide selection are there to be followed, no exception shall be made if there was a selection criteria.
I am sorry not to have well prepared people attending ATLAS III, but I see no point in complain against the rules clearer stated before the beginning of the process.
best to all
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*From: *At-Large <at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> on behalf of John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> *Date: *Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 15:02 *To: *Humberto Carrasco <hcarrasco@cmsz.cl> *Cc: *'At-Large Worldwide' <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> *Subject: *Re: [At-Large] Fwd: ATLASIII Participation
Indeed
On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 1:01 PM Humberto Carrasco <hcarrasco@cmsz.cl <mailto:hcarrasco@cmsz.cl>> wrote:
Dear John,
Please, do not forget that webinars were an alternative of online courses.
Regards
Enviado desde mi iPhone
El 11-07-2019, a la(s) 13:55, John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com <mailto:jlaprise@gmail.com>> escribió:
Hi Evan,
Simply put, it wasn't about you.
The program committee, ALAC and the selection committee agreed that participation in the webinars was a hard requirement. Full stop.
Making exceptions would have opened a can of worms we decided to leave sealed, for better or worse.
Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D.
On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 12:49 PM Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org <mailto:evan@telly.org>> wrote:
Hi Judith.
Yes, I applied before the deadline. I committed to take the "how does ICANN work" courses but apparently didn't finish them in time. So apparently I have not sufficiently demonstrated that I understand how ALAC operates within ICANN.
(BTW, thouse ICANN learn courses are all aimed at registrants' PoV -- they miss much that is important to end users -- ie, At-Large. But, according to the selection committee, I don't know enough about this kind of thing.)
- Evan
On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 at 13:28, Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com <mailto:judith@jhellerstein.com>> wrote:
HI Evan,
Did you apply? I was not on the evaluating team but as I understand it there were very few applications from NARALO
Best,
Judith
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On 7/11/2019 1:19 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote:
Having been rejected from participating because I would have been such a tourist, I have no comment.
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Hi Roberto, Many thanks for your comments. You speak for many of us. Lets face it we are in an open society, not everyone can be pleased. The Internet Ecosystem is like a Factory that continues to evolve and improve over time with the sole aim of satisfying its customers needs. The improvement is driven by Research and Innovation and requires an open mind. That said and like any factory that manufactures good it may or may no have customers. Some Customers are simply put off by the operating environment or technological issues which might not meet their expectations. As such, a lot has been achieved and we are poised to achieve a lot more with those that are committed to walk this journey which doesn't seem to have a definate end. Best Regards On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 11:24 PM Roberto Gaetano < roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com> wrote:
Dear Christian, I don’t have the answers to the many questions you ask, but I will briefly try. To the question about where the funding comes, I agree with you that ICANN puts in some “money". However, the overwhelming majority of the resources invested in ALAC are coming from the labour of the volunteers, who often even pay their way to meetings. Under whatever economic model or organisational theory developed so far, the analysis will prove that the soft skills provided by the volunteers provide the essence of the “wealth" of the organization, outnumbering by far the financial resources provided by ICANN. In summary, ALAC can exist without the financial support of ICANN, but cannot exist without the people. This is an essential consideration for the analysis. While ICANN can steer a bit the direction, privileging some funding destinations over others, it cannot control the flow of the mainstream. The conclusion that I draw, on which our opinions might differ, is that on the long run it is by and large irrelevant whether ICANN thinks at ALAC as windows dressing or not - what is relevant is what the ALAC team believes that we can collectively do, also because none of us is limiting our participation in Internet policy and governance activities to just ICANN, for Internet users worldwide. You correctly observe that the role of Internet users is crucial, and fear the role of the intermediaries. I share your concerns, but - as the many discussions with my good friend Karl Auerbach over at least two decades show - I am convinced that on a planetary scale representative democracy has far better chances to be achieved than direct democracy, that works well in small homogeneous communities but, IMHO, does not scale. So my problem is not how to eliminate the intermediaries, but how to drive the intermediaries to make sure that the needs and wishes of the user community are represented fairly. That is the model that many reasonably successful democracies use: we elect representatives, and try our best to address them to do the things we want them to do. Not a perfect system, but I stand behind the statement I made a couple of days ago, I do not see a better solution. So, I have used so many words to go to the detail of what I believe is our disagreement or at least divergent opinion. Funny. What a waste! But I can limit to one word my comment to your last sentence: “What is needed is an Internet user focus across the entire stack end to end”. YES! And I hope that ATLAS III will be a step in this direction. Let’s get all the brainware, the *real* resource we have, to achieve this objective. Cheers, Roberto
On 14.07.2019, at 15:15, Christian de Larrinaga <cdel@firsthand.net> wrote:
Dear Roberto
That is a lovely reply. But you are in a better position to answer your question than I or someone else closer to ICANN today. I hope you don't think I was referring to myself as that 1 person you so accurately fathomed from my inadvertently framed formula obfuscation! ;-)
Although I hugely admire the folk working as At Large for trying to promote a user interest in the ICANN melee. It is not working I fear.
Who funds At Large? How does At Large operate and how do its representatives get funded? Who controls the remit for that funding?
ICANN does as I understand it.
I remember being party to a past President of ICANN exclaim offstage "But we don't do that!" when he asked a friend what to talk about and was advised to mention ICANN's role for Internet users . He went up and talked about the role for Internet users anyway. It was an At Large gathering after all.
As I said before I don't know Atlas or what it is trying to do. I am not against training or knowledge or expertise far from it. But I worry that ICANN has always been rather good at introducing hurdles, hoops and complexity and now it seems qualifications limited by who can participate in gaining them to further erode engagement by Internet users.
That is why I poked my keyboard above the parapet once more to test the waters.
The issue around the Internet user is not theoretical. It is real because in the Internet the user is at the edge of the network and that is where both the intelligence and the decision control surface for connectivity between end points has to lie.
Everything else in the middle is just routing across diverse infrastructures to optimise that connectivity.
Everything done in the technical community should be to assist in optimising that connectivity and broadening the application capacity and capabilities between end points.
So what am I trying to say? Internet was developed by a focus from the bottom to the top or rather from the network edge to the network edge at the other side.
Yet institutionally over the last couple of decades the discussion has excluded the network edge and moved towards intermediaries.
Internet users are not represented in IANA, RIRs or in LIRs - intermediaries are. Internet users are not represented in tld registries nor in registrars. - intermediaries are. Internet users are not represented in ISPs or ISP associations or IXPs - intermediaries are Internet users are not represented in Platforms / application service providers. - no one but the platform owner is. increasingly Internet users are not represented in Standards or Specification recommendations - intermediaries are, as unsurprisingly given my list above they are defining the service design for users rather than users themselves.
Even the development stacks albeit open sourced are largely shovelled out of the doors of the intermediary platforms ready made to bolster and extend their unfair advantage in the "cloud".
For instance the UK Internet Service Provider Association last week voted Mozilla an Internet villain for its promotion of DNS over HTTPS. The public ridicule of that amongst aware users forced a climb down by the end of the week. But that was because of the bad public PR created by the volume of approbium. It was not about detailed process discussion in an intermediary technical policy implementation body like ICANN. No Atlas or at large type process has shown itself effective in knocking such nonsenses back.
Yet in private and behind closed doors will ISPs continue their campaign to stop DoH? Of course. They are drafting Internet drafts now to allow ISPs to negate a user's use of DoH across their networks.
Now how much of this user space can At Large by being an ICANN only body really address?
I don't see the scale required being nearly met by focussing on ICANN. I worry that the concentration of energy and focus on ICANN institutionally is increasingly a distraction that too many good people who can make a difference for Internet users are suckered into.
What is needed is an Internet user focus across the entire stack end to end.
Christian
Roberto Gaetano wrote:
Hi Christian, A couple of comments. While I may agree with you that ICAN is by and large insufficient as a forum where the users’ voice is represented, I cannot think of another venue where we could have a different situation. If you have an idea, please share it. As a mathematician, I also have some perplexity on your estimates. 99.99999999% of people unaware of ICANN means that only 0.00000001% of the world population, estimated at below 10 billions, is aware. 0.00000001% of the population is barely 1 individual. My question is: “Who is this only individual on earth that believes that ICANN matters?” 😜 Cheers, Roberto
On 12.07.2019, at 14:53, Christian de Larrinaga <cdel@firsthand.net> wrote:
In no way to detract from any point you are making. But this is the first I've heard about ATLAS participation or these ICANN courses. I also have no idea whether this matters in the slightest.
I suspect I am within a mere 99.99999999% of the Internet userbase on that. I would also argue that I am probably much more aware of ICANN than most Internet users.
This leads me to feel that ICANN is not an appropriate venue to represent my interests or views.
C
Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond wrote:
Dear Vanda,
thank you - that is exactly what I wanted to say. I'll come clean: in the preparation phase, I pushed for everyone to follow the same courses for two reasons:
1. Making sure that everybody had reached a high enough level of knowledge by the time we get to Montreal, that we do not end up wasting time on explaining how, for example, the GNSO works during the precious time that we will have face to face. I actually think that learning about ICANN this way is a real benefit to end users - it is vital knowledge needed to evolve in this environment. 2. Making sure that other people in the group, the seasoned members of At-Large, knew what level of knowledge everyone was expected to achieve prior to the meeting, so that we do not end up with a discussion in Montréal that involves 15 expert members of the community and the rest not understanding what the heck they are talking about.
Whilst I sympathize with people like Evan who have not been selected, the complaints about the ICANN learn courses being too long and a waste of time and not being bothered to finish them do not have my sympathy. Sorry. I took all of the mandatory courses, and in fact I also took all of the other ones on the ICANN Learn Web site too, in order to find out what was out there. It took me no more than an hour per course on the non mandatory ones, namely because in cases where I knew the topic well I either fast forwarded the video segments, or ran it at a higher speed than the original. I even ended up sending dozens of corrections to fix the courses to ICANN Learn staff. And lo and behold, I actually came across some real nuggets where I learnt something - and this has completed my education, where I can now comment on more topics that I better understand than before, in the public consultation process. And yes, I am really happy that I took the courses, because I enjoy learning more stuff, and I did. So 5 x 1 hour = 5 hours. The Group that had to focus on Capacity Building asked each other: is it reasonable to ask a volunteer to spend 5 hours on a course within the length of 1 month? And the answer was YES. This could be done in chunks of 15 minutes, if wanted. It was really not a real workload. Now I am reading many emails from many people about them not being able to complete the courses in time. Well, there were also the Webinars, as an even easier alternative. I am sorry this has taken out some people, but I would have expected a better and more positive response from seasoned participants. My outlook in life is that I am never confident enough to think that I do not require a refresher course - because the world moves on and I cannot rely solely on my past knowledge.
Kindest regards,
Olivier
On 11/07/2019 21:34, Vanda Scartezini wrote:
Being in ICANN for around 20 years and have been using the e-learning courses for long time in capacitation to others, I was one that felt no real need to attend all courses or webinar.
But I did all those, because rules in a worldwide selection are there to be followed, no exception shall be made if there was a selection criteria.
I am sorry not to have well prepared people attending ATLAS III, but I see no point in complain against the rules clearer stated before the beginning of the process.
best to all
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*From: *At-Large <at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> on behalf of John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> *Date: *Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 15:02 *To: *Humberto Carrasco <hcarrasco@cmsz.cl> *Cc: *'At-Large Worldwide' <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> *Subject: *Re: [At-Large] Fwd: ATLASIII Participation
Indeed
On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 1:01 PM Humberto Carrasco <hcarrasco@cmsz.cl <mailto:hcarrasco@cmsz.cl>> wrote:
Dear John,
Please, do not forget that webinars were an alternative of online courses.
Regards
Enviado desde mi iPhone
El 11-07-2019, a la(s) 13:55, John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com <mailto:jlaprise@gmail.com>> escribió:
Hi Evan,
Simply put, it wasn't about you.
The program committee, ALAC and the selection committee agreed that participation in the webinars was a hard requirement. Full stop.
Making exceptions would have opened a can of worms we decided to leave sealed, for better or worse.
Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D.
On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 12:49 PM Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org <mailto:evan@telly.org>> wrote:
Hi Judith.
Yes, I applied before the deadline. I committed to take the "how does ICANN work" courses but apparently didn't finish them in time. So apparently I have not sufficiently demonstrated that I understand how ALAC operates within ICANN.
(BTW, thouse ICANN learn courses are all aimed at registrants' PoV -- they miss much that is important to end users -- ie, At-Large. But, according to the selection committee, I don't know enough about this kind of thing.)
- Evan
On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 at 13:28, Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com <mailto:judith@jhellerstein.com>> wrote:
HI Evan,
Did you apply? I was not on the evaluating team but as I understand it there were very few applications from NARALO
Best,
Judith
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On 7/11/2019 1:19 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote:
Having been rejected from participating because I would have been such a tourist, I have no comment.
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On 7/12/19 5:53 AM, Christian de Larrinaga wrote:
In no way to detract from any point you are making. But this is the first I've heard about ATLAS participation or these ICANN courses. I also have no idea whether this matters in the slightest.
I, as well, found these requirements surprising. They reminded me of 19th century European sovereigns who claimed that their colonial governments in Africa were necessary because the people there were incapable of deciding questions that were important to their own lives. Yes, that is a harsh assessment. But imposition of participation requirements, such as mandatory education, smacks of "top down" management. Yes, people who don't know the lingo of the meeting do slow things down. But ICANN has been wandering around, doing essentially little except promote certain intellectual property and business interests for more than two decades. "Efficient" is not a word that seems to exist in the ICANN universe. Why not a list of suggested readings rather than a mandatory gauntlet? Much of the potential of ICANN is not in following the deeply rutted path of what ICANN has done over the last two decades but, rather, in what is possible when one explores the green fields to the sides of the old road. Mandatory courses can be blinders - devices used on horses so that they could see only what was in front of them, not to the sides. Those mandatory courses tell potential participants what has been; not what is possible. Nor are those courses complete. For instance, is there material that explains how (or why) ICANN arrived at the present Byzantine structure or what the alternatives were (and perhaps still are)? Those courses reminded me of when I started in the field of networking that we had to learn about circuits and BiSync and HASP because that was the way thing were done. It was revolutionaries like Luis Pouzin, Don Davies, and Paul Baran who said "we don't need circuits, packets are sufficient" that broke us out of the status quo and led to the end-to-end principle and the internet. (There are even more harsh assessments of imposed orthodoxy. I am reminded of Mao's Red Book [which was pilloried in a great aria - https://youtu.be/TyiKxltknZI ].) --karl--
Here you are again, Karl, with the vision of the third eye! -Carlton ============================== *Carlton A Samuels* *Mobile: 876-818-1799Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* ============================= On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 2:41 PM Karl Auerbach <karl@cavebear.com> wrote:
On 7/12/19 5:53 AM, Christian de Larrinaga wrote:
In no way to detract from any point you are making. But this is the first I've heard about ATLAS participation or these ICANN courses. I also have no idea whether this matters in the slightest.
I, as well, found these requirements surprising. They reminded me of 19th century European sovereigns who claimed that their colonial governments in Africa were necessary because the people there were incapable of deciding questions that were important to their own lives.
Yes, that is a harsh assessment. But imposition of participation requirements, such as mandatory education, smacks of "top down" management.
Yes, people who don't know the lingo of the meeting do slow things down. But ICANN has been wandering around, doing essentially little except promote certain intellectual property and business interests for more than two decades. "Efficient" is not a word that seems to exist in the ICANN universe.
Why not a list of suggested readings rather than a mandatory gauntlet?
Much of the potential of ICANN is not in following the deeply rutted path of what ICANN has done over the last two decades but, rather, in what is possible when one explores the green fields to the sides of the old road.
Mandatory courses can be blinders - devices used on horses so that they could see only what was in front of them, not to the sides.
Those mandatory courses tell potential participants what has been; not what is possible.
Nor are those courses complete. For instance, is there material that explains how (or why) ICANN arrived at the present Byzantine structure or what the alternatives were (and perhaps still are)?
Those courses reminded me of when I started in the field of networking that we had to learn about circuits and BiSync and HASP because that was the way thing were done. It was revolutionaries like Luis Pouzin, Don Davies, and Paul Baran who said "we don't need circuits, packets are sufficient" that broke us out of the status quo and led to the end-to-end principle and the internet.
(There are even more harsh assessments of imposed orthodoxy. I am reminded of Mao's Red Book [which was pilloried in a great aria - https://youtu.be/TyiKxltknZI ].)
--karl--
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The political science behind Karl's statement was superseded in Babylon or probably earlier, 8,000 years ago, in Göbekli Tepe, and more formally in Athens, 2,500 years ago. Let's move on. Alejandro Pisanty - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Facultad de Química UNAM Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico +52-1-5541444475 FROM ABROAD +525541444475 DESDE MÉXICO SMS +525541444475 Blog: http://pisanty.blogspot.com LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn, http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614 Twitter: http://twitter.com/apisanty ---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, http://www.isoc.org . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ________________________________ Desde: At-Large [at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] en nombre de Carlton Samuels [carlton.samuels@gmail.com] Enviado el: sábado, 13 de julio de 2019 12:49 Hasta: Karl Auerbach CC: Humberto Carrasco; At-Large Worldwide Asunto: Re: [At-Large] Fwd: ATLASIII Participation Here you are again, Karl, with the vision of the third eye! -Carlton ============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround ============================= On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 2:41 PM Karl Auerbach <karl@cavebear.com<mailto:karl@cavebear.com>> wrote: On 7/12/19 5:53 AM, Christian de Larrinaga wrote:
In no way to detract from any point you are making. But this is the first I've heard about ATLAS participation or these ICANN courses. I also have no idea whether this matters in the slightest.
I, as well, found these requirements surprising. They reminded me of 19th century European sovereigns who claimed that their colonial governments in Africa were necessary because the people there were incapable of deciding questions that were important to their own lives. Yes, that is a harsh assessment. But imposition of participation requirements, such as mandatory education, smacks of "top down" management. Yes, people who don't know the lingo of the meeting do slow things down. But ICANN has been wandering around, doing essentially little except promote certain intellectual property and business interests for more than two decades. "Efficient" is not a word that seems to exist in the ICANN universe. Why not a list of suggested readings rather than a mandatory gauntlet? Much of the potential of ICANN is not in following the deeply rutted path of what ICANN has done over the last two decades but, rather, in what is possible when one explores the green fields to the sides of the old road. Mandatory courses can be blinders - devices used on horses so that they could see only what was in front of them, not to the sides. Those mandatory courses tell potential participants what has been; not what is possible. Nor are those courses complete. For instance, is there material that explains how (or why) ICANN arrived at the present Byzantine structure or what the alternatives were (and perhaps still are)? Those courses reminded me of when I started in the field of networking that we had to learn about circuits and BiSync and HASP because that was the way thing were done. It was revolutionaries like Luis Pouzin, Don Davies, and Paul Baran who said "we don't need circuits, packets are sufficient" that broke us out of the status quo and led to the end-to-end principle and the internet. (There are even more harsh assessments of imposed orthodoxy. I am reminded of Mao's Red Book [which was pilloried in a great aria - https://youtu.be/TyiKxltknZI ].) --karl-- _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org<mailto:At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
As ICANN enters a period of austerity while it panics its way to re-opening the gTLD floodgates, ALAC is at a crossroads. Ridiculed wherever it is not written off for its navel-gazing and complete ineffectiveness at bringing forth any useful input unique to end users, ALAC struggles for legitimacy whether it knows it or not. No wonder ATLAS 3 was so poorly funded; ICANN suspects that nothing useful (for its purposes) will come out of the current direction of yet more process and more capacity building. They think it's a waste of money so they give the minimum they can get away with. Who can blame them? ALAC had the chance to prove them wrong this time and to do something different, to take the time necessary to have the mortally necessary debate within ALAC of how it can be relevant to ICANN and revisit how to serve its bylaw-stated mission. It needed to counter the awful external ALAC review with a thoughtful internal one. But no. Based on the published objectives of ATLAS 3 <https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/71605234/ATLASIII%20Overvie...>, we are in for more of the same: - Leadership Development: another way to say "capacity building", training that could be easily be done by webinars and/or the same CBT used to deliver "what is ICANN" that would be accessible by anyone, not just the 60 attendees - Programming: what are the tasks? "Define and structure", "Develop meeting processes". And the outcomes of programming? Reports, video interviews, and "fully functional next generation leaders". IOW, continued navel gazing that seems to be focused most on the succession plans of existing leadership. Policy doesn't even get lip service, the word isn't mentioned once. Nothing in the objectives points to how ALAC can actually work better to understand what end users need from ICANN and then to communicate those needs to the greater community. So why not stop calling it a Summit and call it what it is -- Leadership training? Probably because, presented that way, it wouldn't have been funded. Let's just say it's unlikely there will be an ATLAS 4 once ICANN sees how its money was spent this time. - Evan
I agree with your dim assessment in many ways, but not all. There is something that the ALAC can do, and relatively easily. The issue of naming is beginning to move beyond the domain name system - there will be (and are) issues of naming of "topics" for IoT networking; there are issues in cloud computing of entities as they split, move, and merge; etc. Now on one hand there is a lot of technological issues in there - which are better left to the IETF and similar groups. On the other hand there are major non-technical lessons to be learned from ICANN of what ought to be done in the world of governance including issues of whether-or-not-to-govern, what-to-do, what-not-to-do, ownership information access (the whois issue again), etc. The ALAC of all the bodies in ICANN, is in the best position to step back and give an unbiased (at least, commercially unbiased) assessment and roadmap for that future. --karl-- On 7/13/19 2:46 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote:
As ICANN enters a period of austerity while it panics its way to re-opening the gTLD floodgates, ALAC is at a crossroads. Ridiculed wherever it is not written off for its navel-gazing and complete ineffectiveness at bringing forth any useful input unique to end users, ALAC struggles for legitimacy whether it knows it or not. No wonder ATLAS 3 was so poorly funded; ICANN suspects that nothing useful (for its purposes) will come out of the current direction of yet more process and more capacity building. They think it's a waste of money so they give the minimum they can get away with. Who can blame them?
ALAC had the chance to prove them wrong this time and to do something different, to take the time necessary to have the mortally necessary debate within ALAC of how it can be relevant to ICANN and revisit how to serve its bylaw-stated mission. It needed to counter the awful external ALAC review with a thoughtful internal one.
But no.
Based on the published objectives of ATLAS 3 <https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/71605234/ATLASIII%20Overvie...>, we are in for more of the same:
* Leadership Development: another way to say "capacity building", training that could be easily be done by webinars and/or the same CBT used to deliver "what is ICANN" that would be accessible by anyone, not just the 60 attendees
* Programming: what are the tasks? "Define and structure", "Develop meeting processes". And the outcomes of programming? Reports, video interviews, and "fully functional next generation leaders".
IOW, continued navel gazing that seems to be focused most on the succession plans of existing leadership. Policy doesn't even get lip service, the word isn't mentioned once.
Nothing in the objectives points to how ALAC can actually work better to understand what end users need from ICANN and then to communicate those needs to the greater community. So why not stop calling it a Summit and call it what it is -- Leadership training? Probably because, presented that way, it wouldn't have been funded. Let's just say it's unlikely there will be an ATLAS 4 once ICANN sees how its money was spent this time.
- Evan
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Karl, I am very grateful that you can see what the ALAC is trying to do with regards to ATLASIII - developing a roadmap for the future. I cannot imagine that ALAC and At-Large is going to miraculously change overnight when it has been perceived that we made no positive impacts from our previous Summits. However, this time I believe that we are truly attempting to offer an event where participants can get a better understanding not only of why it is important we take the end-users perspective to all discussions that take place in ICANN, but also why it is important that we all share common messages to minimise the confusion that people have about At-Large. This is being supported already by the weekly CPWG meetings and members of this WG who are already committed to this model. I am thankful that the Board made the decision to reduce the ATLAS funding, and made us change the way we view Summits and what should aim to achieve. This has made us also look not only at what we should do, but also how we should go about doing it. Evan is correct, we are not providing a SUMMIT in the traditional sense. This was something that had to change with the reduced funding and thus the reduced number for whom we could offer travel sponsorship. We have retained the name ATLAS this time because it is still a gathering of At-Large members. However, the reductions forced us to deal with challenges, especially with regards to our selection process and the programme. One of the positives that has come out of this is that the ideas for the development of both emerged from discussions with our ATLAS volunteers. The selection process came about through some robust discussion by the members which was endorsed by the five representatives of the ALAC Leadership Team. Even though there are still the inevitable complaints about inequities, the majority of those who were selected, are looking at this as an opportunity to learn more about At-Large and to work on its behalf in the future. This is a primary goal for this ATLAS - the work for these participants will not end with ATLAS in Montreal. There is an expectation of continued engagement even after ATLAS - in their regions, in At-Large and in ICANN. This is where we see that ICANN will get value out of this event. Because this is a new experience for us, we are still finding our way, but I thank the Staff and the Selection Committee for the hard work they contributed to the selection of those ATLAS participants that ICANN will sponsor for the ATLAS. The ATLAS programme will be more than "just capacity building". The five pre-application modules were to ensure that there was at least a benchmark that had been achieved by all. And while they were basic for many of our experienced members, it was important that everyone was at least starting on the same page, albeit at different levels. The proposed ATLAS programme will require this knowledge as the groups become involved in the main activity which I believe will help them not only learn more about how At-Large thinking fits into that of the rest of ICANN but also what all the discussions mean to us as end-users. This is the gap of learning we want to close for those newer members of the ATLAS group, supported by our more experienced participants. There is no way you could offer the same level of learning on a webinar and you wouldn’t be able to encourage as much individual participation as will be possible at this event. Our greatest numbers of participants are justifiably coming from our underdeveloped regions. Evan's complaints that there are few NARALO members in the ATLAS, yet they are the best served of all the regions with regards to ongoing capacity building and updating on latest issues - check out the Community Skype chat just about every week. I thank NARALO members for opening up the opportunity for other less advantaged At-Large members to attend. I am looking forward not only to what we will achieve at our ATLAS but the new thinking we can inject into our RALOs and our regions and the work that these selected participants will contribute to our At-Large of the future. My 2c Maureen On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 7:24 AM Karl Auerbach <karl@cavebear.com> wrote:
I agree with your dim assessment in many ways, but not all.
There is something that the ALAC can do, and relatively easily.
The issue of naming is beginning to move beyond the domain name system - there will be (and are) issues of naming of "topics" for IoT networking; there are issues in cloud computing of entities as they split, move, and merge; etc.
Now on one hand there is a lot of technological issues in there - which are better left to the IETF and similar groups.
On the other hand there are major non-technical lessons to be learned from ICANN of what ought to be done in the world of governance including issues of whether-or-not-to-govern, what-to-do, what-not-to-do, ownership information access (the whois issue again), etc.
The ALAC of all the bodies in ICANN, is in the best position to step back and give an unbiased (at least, commercially unbiased) assessment and roadmap for that future.
--karl--
On 7/13/19 2:46 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote:
As ICANN enters a period of austerity while it panics its way to re-opening the gTLD floodgates, ALAC is at a crossroads. Ridiculed wherever it is not written off for its navel-gazing and complete ineffectiveness at bringing forth any useful input unique to end users, ALAC struggles for legitimacy whether it knows it or not. No wonder ATLAS 3 was so poorly funded; ICANN suspects that nothing useful (for its purposes) will come out of the current direction of yet more process and more capacity building. They think it's a waste of money so they give the minimum they can get away with. Who can blame them?
ALAC had the chance to prove them wrong this time and to do something different, to take the time necessary to have the mortally necessary debate within ALAC of how it can be relevant to ICANN and revisit how to serve its bylaw-stated mission. It needed to counter the awful external ALAC review with a thoughtful internal one.
But no.
Based on the published objectives of ATLAS 3 <https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/71605234/ATLASIII%20Overvie...>, we are in for more of the same:
- Leadership Development: another way to say "capacity building", training that could be easily be done by webinars and/or the same CBT used to deliver "what is ICANN" that would be accessible by anyone, not just the 60 attendees
- Programming: what are the tasks? "Define and structure", "Develop meeting processes". And the outcomes of programming? Reports, video interviews, and "fully functional next generation leaders".
IOW, continued navel gazing that seems to be focused most on the succession plans of existing leadership. Policy doesn't even get lip service, the word isn't mentioned once.
Nothing in the objectives points to how ALAC can actually work better to understand what end users need from ICANN and then to communicate those needs to the greater community. So why not stop calling it a Summit and call it what it is -- Leadership training? Probably because, presented that way, it wouldn't have been funded. Let's just say it's unlikely there will be an ATLAS 4 once ICANN sees how its money was spent this time.
- Evan
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I also agreed with the views and notions of Oliver and Maureen. I also had completed ICANN learn course as well as attended webinars of the mandatory ATLAS III to gain more knowledge. it is really good experience to build platform to participate actively during ATLAS III and the upcoming days. My 0.5c Best Regards, Jahangir Hossain Vice Chair, Board of Trustees Internet Society Bangladesh http://isoc.org.bd <http://internetsociety.org.bd> https://bd.linkedin.com/in/jrjahangir On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 6:08 AM Maureen Hilyard <maureen.hilyard@gmail.com> wrote:
Karl, I am very grateful that you can see what the ALAC is trying to do with regards to ATLASIII - developing a roadmap for the future.
I cannot imagine that ALAC and At-Large is going to miraculously change overnight when it has been perceived that we made no positive impacts from our previous Summits. However, this time I believe that we are truly attempting to offer an event where participants can get a better understanding not only of why it is important we take the end-users perspective to all discussions that take place in ICANN, but also why it is important that we all share common messages to minimise the confusion that people have about At-Large. This is being supported already by the weekly CPWG meetings and members of this WG who are already committed to this model.
I am thankful that the Board made the decision to reduce the ATLAS funding, and made us change the way we view Summits and what should aim to achieve. This has made us also look not only at what we should do, but also how we should go about doing it.
Evan is correct, we are not providing a SUMMIT in the traditional sense. This was something that had to change with the reduced funding and thus the reduced number for whom we could offer travel sponsorship. We have retained the name ATLAS this time because it is still a gathering of At-Large members.
However, the reductions forced us to deal with challenges, especially with regards to our selection process and the programme. One of the positives that has come out of this is that the ideas for the development of both emerged from discussions with our ATLAS volunteers. The selection process came about through some robust discussion by the members which was endorsed by the five representatives of the ALAC Leadership Team. Even though there are still the inevitable complaints about inequities, the majority of those who were selected, are looking at this as an opportunity to learn more about At-Large and to work on its behalf in the future. This is a primary goal for this ATLAS - the work for these participants will not end with ATLAS in Montreal. There is an expectation of continued engagement even after ATLAS - in their regions, in At-Large and in ICANN. This is where we see that ICANN will get value out of this event.
Because this is a new experience for us, we are still finding our way, but I thank the Staff and the Selection Committee for the hard work they contributed to the selection of those ATLAS participants that ICANN will sponsor for the ATLAS. The ATLAS programme will be more than "just capacity building". The five pre-application modules were to ensure that there was at least a benchmark that had been achieved by all. And while they were basic for many of our experienced members, it was important that everyone was at least starting on the same page, albeit at different levels.
The proposed ATLAS programme will require this knowledge as the groups become involved in the main activity which I believe will help them not only learn more about how At-Large thinking fits into that of the rest of ICANN but also what all the discussions mean to us as end-users. This is the gap of learning we want to close for those newer members of the ATLAS group, supported by our more experienced participants. There is no way you could offer the same level of learning on a webinar and you wouldn’t be able to encourage as much individual participation as will be possible at this event.
Our greatest numbers of participants are justifiably coming from our underdeveloped regions. Evan's complaints that there are few NARALO members in the ATLAS, yet they are the best served of all the regions with regards to ongoing capacity building and updating on latest issues - check out the Community Skype chat just about every week. I thank NARALO members for opening up the opportunity for other less advantaged At-Large members to attend.
I am looking forward not only to what we will achieve at our ATLAS but the new thinking we can inject into our RALOs and our regions and the work that these selected participants will contribute to our At-Large of the future.
My 2c
Maureen
On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 7:24 AM Karl Auerbach <karl@cavebear.com> wrote:
I agree with your dim assessment in many ways, but not all.
There is something that the ALAC can do, and relatively easily.
The issue of naming is beginning to move beyond the domain name system - there will be (and are) issues of naming of "topics" for IoT networking; there are issues in cloud computing of entities as they split, move, and merge; etc.
Now on one hand there is a lot of technological issues in there - which are better left to the IETF and similar groups.
On the other hand there are major non-technical lessons to be learned from ICANN of what ought to be done in the world of governance including issues of whether-or-not-to-govern, what-to-do, what-not-to-do, ownership information access (the whois issue again), etc.
The ALAC of all the bodies in ICANN, is in the best position to step back and give an unbiased (at least, commercially unbiased) assessment and roadmap for that future.
--karl--
On 7/13/19 2:46 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote:
As ICANN enters a period of austerity while it panics its way to re-opening the gTLD floodgates, ALAC is at a crossroads. Ridiculed wherever it is not written off for its navel-gazing and complete ineffectiveness at bringing forth any useful input unique to end users, ALAC struggles for legitimacy whether it knows it or not. No wonder ATLAS 3 was so poorly funded; ICANN suspects that nothing useful (for its purposes) will come out of the current direction of yet more process and more capacity building. They think it's a waste of money so they give the minimum they can get away with. Who can blame them?
ALAC had the chance to prove them wrong this time and to do something different, to take the time necessary to have the mortally necessary debate within ALAC of how it can be relevant to ICANN and revisit how to serve its bylaw-stated mission. It needed to counter the awful external ALAC review with a thoughtful internal one.
But no.
Based on the published objectives of ATLAS 3 <https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/71605234/ATLASIII%20Overvie...>, we are in for more of the same:
- Leadership Development: another way to say "capacity building", training that could be easily be done by webinars and/or the same CBT used to deliver "what is ICANN" that would be accessible by anyone, not just the 60 attendees
- Programming: what are the tasks? "Define and structure", "Develop meeting processes". And the outcomes of programming? Reports, video interviews, and "fully functional next generation leaders".
IOW, continued navel gazing that seems to be focused most on the succession plans of existing leadership. Policy doesn't even get lip service, the word isn't mentioned once.
Nothing in the objectives points to how ALAC can actually work better to understand what end users need from ICANN and then to communicate those needs to the greater community. So why not stop calling it a Summit and call it what it is -- Leadership training? Probably because, presented that way, it wouldn't have been funded. Let's just say it's unlikely there will be an ATLAS 4 once ICANN sees how its money was spent this time.
- Evan
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Maureen, agree with your points. However it is not my opinion that Mexico or London Summit can be perceived as no impact. Anytime we shall analyze anything with the perspective of the occasion in time. Like in History anyone can criticize any AC/SOs and their constituencies about the poor work done if we look to the past with the experiences and demands of the present. Mexico was an quite interesting experience to have all ALS from around the world experiment work together with their different cultural behavior, views of the world and ICAnn etc.. London experience was richer with policy discussion going deeply discussed. Certainly reducing the number of participants is positive to achieve a more focus content and results. ALAC is the only group embracing the whole world and sometimes is difficult for anyone with a more focused approach to understand its impact. What is quite important is the touched community has appropriated ALAC spread of knowledge and improved the participation after both summits. Thanks all for sharing different views, we can always enrich the process. Vanda Scartezini Polo Consultores Associados Av. Paulista 1159, cj 1004 01311-200- Sao Paulo, SP, Brazil Land Line: +55 11 3266.6253 Mobile: + 55 11 98181.1464 Sorry for any typos. From: At-Large <at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> on behalf of Maureen Hilyard <maureen.hilyard@gmail.com> Date: Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 21:09 To: "karl@cavebear.com" <karl@cavebear.com> Cc: 'At-Large Worldwide' <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Subject: Re: [At-Large] Fwd: ATLASIII Participation Karl, I am very grateful that you can see what the ALAC is trying to do with regards to ATLASIII - developing a roadmap for the future. I cannot imagine that ALAC and At-Large is going to miraculously change overnight when it has been perceived that we made no positive impacts from our previous Summits. However, this time I believe that we are truly attempting to offer an event where participants can get a better understanding not only of why it is important we take the end-users perspective to all discussions that take place in ICANN, but also why it is important that we all share common messages to minimise the confusion that people have about At-Large. This is being supported already by the weekly CPWG meetings and members of this WG who are already committed to this model. I am thankful that the Board made the decision to reduce the ATLAS funding, and made us change the way we view Summits and what should aim to achieve. This has made us also look not only at what we should do, but also how we should go about doing it. Evan is correct, we are not providing a SUMMIT in the traditional sense. This was something that had to change with the reduced funding and thus the reduced number for whom we could offer travel sponsorship. We have retained the name ATLAS this time because it is still a gathering of At-Large members. However, the reductions forced us to deal with challenges, especially with regards to our selection process and the programme. One of the positives that has come out of this is that the ideas for the development of both emerged from discussions with our ATLAS volunteers. The selection process came about through some robust discussion by the members which was endorsed by the five representatives of the ALAC Leadership Team. Even though there are still the inevitable complaints about inequities, the majority of those who were selected, are looking at this as an opportunity to learn more about At-Large and to work on its behalf in the future. This is a primary goal for this ATLAS - the work for these participants will not end with ATLAS in Montreal. There is an expectation of continued engagement even after ATLAS - in their regions, in At-Large and in ICANN. This is where we see that ICANN will get value out of this event. Because this is a new experience for us, we are still finding our way, but I thank the Staff and the Selection Committee for the hard work they contributed to the selection of those ATLAS participants that ICANN will sponsor for the ATLAS. The ATLAS programme will be more than "just capacity building". The five pre-application modules were to ensure that there was at least a benchmark that had been achieved by all. And while they were basic for many of our experienced members, it was important that everyone was at least starting on the same page, albeit at different levels. The proposed ATLAS programme will require this knowledge as the groups become involved in the main activity which I believe will help them not only learn more about how At-Large thinking fits into that of the rest of ICANN but also what all the discussions mean to us as end-users. This is the gap of learning we want to close for those newer members of the ATLAS group, supported by our more experienced participants. There is no way you could offer the same level of learning on a webinar and you wouldn’t be able to encourage as much individual participation as will be possible at this event. Our greatest numbers of participants are justifiably coming from our underdeveloped regions. Evan's complaints that there are few NARALO members in the ATLAS, yet they are the best served of all the regions with regards to ongoing capacity building and updating on latest issues - check out the Community Skype chat just about every week. I thank NARALO members for opening up the opportunity for other less advantaged At-Large members to attend. I am looking forward not only to what we will achieve at our ATLAS but the new thinking we can inject into our RALOs and our regions and the work that these selected participants will contribute to our At-Large of the future. My 2c Maureen On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 7:24 AM Karl Auerbach <karl@cavebear.com> wrote: I agree with your dim assessment in many ways, but not all. There is something that the ALAC can do, and relatively easily. The issue of naming is beginning to move beyond the domain name system - there will be (and are) issues of naming of "topics" for IoT networking; there are issues in cloud computing of entities as they split, move, and merge; etc. Now on one hand there is a lot of technological issues in there - which are better left to the IETF and similar groups. On the other hand there are major non-technical lessons to be learned from ICANN of what ought to be done in the world of governance including issues of whether-or-not-to-govern, what-to-do, what-not-to-do, ownership information access (the whois issue again), etc. The ALAC of all the bodies in ICANN, is in the best position to step back and give an unbiased (at least, commercially unbiased) assessment and roadmap for that future. --karl-- On 7/13/19 2:46 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote: As ICANN enters a period of austerity while it panics its way to re-opening the gTLD floodgates, ALAC is at a crossroads. Ridiculed wherever it is not written off for its navel-gazing and complete ineffectiveness at bringing forth any useful input unique to end users, ALAC struggles for legitimacy whether it knows it or not. No wonder ATLAS 3 was so poorly funded; ICANN suspects that nothing useful (for its purposes) will come out of the current direction of yet more process and more capacity building. They think it's a waste of money so they give the minimum they can get away with. Who can blame them? ALAC had the chance to prove them wrong this time and to do something different, to take the time necessary to have the mortally necessary debate within ALAC of how it can be relevant to ICANN and revisit how to serve its bylaw-stated mission. It needed to counter the awful external ALAC review with a thoughtful internal one. But no. Based on the published objectives of ATLAS 3, we are in for more of the same: · Leadership Development: another way to say "capacity building", training that could be easily be done by webinars and/or the same CBT used to deliver "what is ICANN" that would be accessible by anyone, not just the 60 attendees · Programming: what are the tasks? "Define and structure", "Develop meeting processes". And the outcomes of programming? Reports, video interviews, and "fully functional next generation leaders". IOW, continued navel gazing that seems to be focused most on the succession plans of existing leadership. Policy doesn't even get lip service, the word isn't mentioned once. Nothing in the objectives points to how ALAC can actually work better to understand what end users need from ICANN and then to communicate those needs to the greater community. So why not stop calling it a Summit and call it what it is -- Leadership training? Probably because, presented that way, it wouldn't have been funded. Let's just say it's unlikely there will be an ATLAS 4 once ICANN sees how its money was spent this time. - Evan _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Thank you so much Wolfgang for providing that important example of the value of our previous Summits. I raised the perception of the lack of impact of At-Large Summits among other communities who tend to treat At-Large and end-users as irrelevant to ICANN, completely forgetting that our attention to outreach and engagement, and capacity building among our members and communities aims at raising awareness about the ICANN ecosystem and its multistakeholder model, domain names not only with an emphasis on new gTLDs but also in creating new, informed and responsible end-user registrants. The ATLAS has the above aim as one of the objectives of its program in Montreal. However, it would not prevent the ALAC within its sessions over the preceding weekend to look at issues they have considered important during 2019, and for this AGM meeting, to provide the Board with some recommendations. The Board member for At-Large was a major achievement with thanks to those who attended the Mexico Summit and put that proposal forward. I will encourage our ALAC members to put some thought into how we too can make a difference. Thank you again for reminding us of what is possible. Maureen On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 11:09 PM Wolfgang Kleinwächter < wolfgang@kleinwaechter.info> wrote:
Hi,
let me join the discussion. ATLAS can have an impact. It is indeed an opportunity, but the poutcome has to be very carefully designed (and realistic).
I was involved in the Mexico Summit (inter alia by creating the acronym :-))) ). In my opinion the Mexcio summit did have an impact. We worked on short "Resolutions" which were handed over to the Board. One resolution was on At Large representation in the ICANN Board. We were calling for two voting seats in the Board. We did not get the two voting seats, but as a result of the Mexico ATLAS resolution the non-voting At Large liaison in the board was upgraded into one voting seat for At Large in the Board (picked by At Large itself). Since that Sebastian, Rinalia and now Leon have voting rights. All other ACs have only non-voting liaisons.Before Mexico there was also a discussion to change the At-Large AC into an At-Large SO. This make no sense anymore. But to ask for a second voting seat (to have the same the representation like an SO in the Board) could make sense. This could contribute to more diversity.
My proposal for Montreal is to define three or four very concrete issues and to work on language for short resolutions. This could include issues discussed under PDPs or WS2, but also more general issues as cyberstability, DNS market development or human rights
Two cents
Wolfgang
Vanda Scartezini <vanda@etges.com.br> hat am 31. Juli 2019 um 22:07 geschrieben:
Maureen, agree with your points. However it is not my opinion that Mexico or London Summit can be perceived as no impact. Anytime we shall analyze anything with the perspective of the occasion in time. Like in History anyone can criticize any AC/SOs and their constituencies about the poor work done if we look to the past with the experiences and demands of the present.
Mexico was an quite interesting experience to have all ALS from around the world experiment work together with their different cultural behavior, views of the world and ICAnn etc..
London experience was richer with policy discussion going deeply discussed.
Certainly reducing the number of participants is positive to achieve a more focus content and results.
ALAC is the only group embracing the whole world and sometimes is difficult for anyone with a more focused approach to understand its impact. What is quite important is the touched community has appropriated ALAC spread of knowledge and improved the participation after both summits.
Thanks all for sharing different views, we can always enrich the process.
*Vanda Scartezini*
*Polo Consultores Associados*
*Av. Paulista 1159, cj 1004*
*01311-200- Sao Paulo, SP, Brazil*
*Land Line: +55 11 3266.6253*
*Mobile: + 55 11 98181.1464 *
*Sorry for any typos. *
*From: *At-Large <at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> on behalf of Maureen Hilyard <maureen.hilyard@gmail.com> *Date: *Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 21:09 *To: *"karl@cavebear.com" <karl@cavebear.com> *Cc: *'At-Large Worldwide' <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> *Subject: *Re: [At-Large] Fwd: ATLASIII Participation
Karl, I am very grateful that you can see what the ALAC is trying to do with regards to ATLASIII - developing a roadmap for the future.
I cannot imagine that ALAC and At-Large is going to miraculously change overnight when it has been perceived that we made no positive impacts from our previous Summits. However, this time I believe that we are truly attempting to offer an event where participants can get a better understanding not only of why it is important we take the end-users perspective to all discussions that take place in ICANN, but also why it is important that we all share common messages to minimise the confusion that people have about At-Large. This is being supported already by the weekly CPWG meetings and members of this WG who are already committed to this model.
I am thankful that the Board made the decision to reduce the ATLAS funding, and made us change the way we view Summits and what should aim to achieve. This has made us also look not only at what we should do, but also how we should go about doing it.
Evan is correct, we are not providing a SUMMIT in the traditional sense. This was something that had to change with the reduced funding and thus the reduced number for whom we could offer travel sponsorship. We have retained the name ATLAS this time because it is still a gathering of At-Large members.
However, the reductions forced us to deal with challenges, especially with regards to our selection process and the programme. One of the positives that has come out of this is that the ideas for the development of both emerged from discussions with our ATLAS volunteers. The selection process came about through some robust discussion by the members which was endorsed by the five representatives of the ALAC Leadership Team. Even though there are still the inevitable complaints about inequities, the majority of those who were selected, are looking at this as an opportunity to learn more about At-Large and to work on its behalf in the future. This is a primary goal for this ATLAS - the work for these participants will not end with ATLAS in Montreal. There is an expectation of continued engagement even after ATLAS - in their regions, in At-Large and in ICANN. This is where we see that ICANN will get value out of this event.
Because this is a new experience for us, we are still finding our way, but I thank the Staff and the Selection Committee for the hard work they contributed to the selection of those ATLAS participants that ICANN will sponsor for the ATLAS. The ATLAS programme will be more than "just capacity building". The five pre-application modules were to ensure that there was at least a benchmark that had been achieved by all. And while they were basic for many of our experienced members, it was important that everyone was at least starting on the same page, albeit at different levels.
The proposed ATLAS programme will require this knowledge as the groups become involved in the main activity which I believe will help them not only learn more about how At-Large thinking fits into that of the rest of ICANN but also what all the discussions mean to us as end-users. This is the gap of learning we want to close for those newer members of the ATLAS group, supported by our more experienced participants. There is no way you could offer the same level of learning on a webinar and you wouldn’t be able to encourage as much individual participation as will be possible at this event.
Our greatest numbers of participants are justifiably coming from our underdeveloped regions. Evan's complaints that there are few NARALO members in the ATLAS, yet they are the best served of all the regions with regards to ongoing capacity building and updating on latest issues - check out the Community Skype chat just about every week. I thank NARALO members for opening up the opportunity for other less advantaged At-Large members to attend.
I am looking forward not only to what we will achieve at our ATLAS but the new thinking we can inject into our RALOs and our regions and the work that these selected participants will contribute to our At-Large of the future.
My 2c
Maureen
On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 7:24 AM Karl Auerbach <karl@cavebear.com> wrote:
I agree with your dim assessment in many ways, but not all.
There is something that the ALAC can do, and relatively easily.
The issue of naming is beginning to move beyond the domain name system - there will be (and are) issues of naming of "topics" for IoT networking; there are issues in cloud computing of entities as they split, move, and merge; etc.
Now on one hand there is a lot of technological issues in there - which are better left to the IETF and similar groups.
On the other hand there are major non-technical lessons to be learned from ICANN of what ought to be done in the world of governance including issues of whether-or-not-to-govern, what-to-do, what-not-to-do, ownership information access (the whois issue again), etc.
The ALAC of all the bodies in ICANN, is in the best position to step back and give an unbiased (at least, commercially unbiased) assessment and roadmap for that future.
--karl--
On 7/13/19 2:46 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote:
As ICANN enters a period of austerity while it panics its way to re-opening the gTLD floodgates, ALAC is at a crossroads. Ridiculed wherever it is not written off for its navel-gazing and complete ineffectiveness at bringing forth any useful input unique to end users, ALAC struggles for legitimacy whether it knows it or not. No wonder ATLAS 3 was so poorly funded; ICANN suspects that nothing useful (for its purposes) will come out of the current direction of yet more process and more capacity building. They think it's a waste of money so they give the minimum they can get away with. Who can blame them?
ALAC had the chance to prove them wrong this time and to do something different, to take the time necessary to have the mortally necessary debate within ALAC of how it can be relevant to ICANN and revisit how to serve its bylaw-stated mission. It needed to counter the awful external ALAC review with a thoughtful internal one.
But no.
Based on the published objectives of ATLAS 3 <https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/71605234/ATLASIII%20Overvie...>, we are in for more of the same:
· Leadership Development: another way to say "capacity building", training that could be easily be done by webinars and/or the same CBT used to deliver "what is ICANN" that would be accessible by anyone, not just the 60 attendees
· Programming: what are the tasks? "Define and structure", "Develop meeting processes". And the outcomes of programming? Reports, video interviews, and "fully functional next generation leaders".
IOW, continued navel gazing that seems to be focused most on the succession plans of existing leadership. Policy doesn't even get lip service, the word isn't mentioned once.
Nothing in the objectives points to how ALAC can actually work better to understand what end users need from ICANN and then to communicate those needs to the greater community. So why not stop calling it a Summit and call it what it is -- Leadership training? Probably because, presented that way, it wouldn't have been funded. Let's just say it's unlikely there will be an ATLAS 4 once ICANN sees how its money was spent this time.
- Evan
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Sent from my mobile Kindly excuse brevity and typos On Thu, 1 Aug 2019, 10:10 Wolfgang Kleinwächter, < wolfgang@kleinwaechter.info> wrote:
Hi,
Mexico there was also a discussion to change the At-Large AC into an At-Large SO. This make no sense anymore.
SO: Agree But to ask for a second voting seat (to have the same the representation
like an SO in the Board) could make sense. This could contribute to more diversity.
SO: Absolutely! my humble self has in the past raised this need, I hope that it can be one of the outcome of the upcoming ATLAS
My proposal for Montreal is to define three or four very concrete issues and to work on language for short resolutions. This could include issues discussed under PDPs or WS2, but also more general issues as cyberstability, DNS market development or human rights
SO: Indeed - few focused issues with trackable outcomes. I note the Chair has provided some interesting response. Regards PS: Congratulations Wolfgang on your nomcom election/selection - loss/gain to At-Large; it all depends on who is responding :-)
Two cents
Wolfgang
Vanda Scartezini <vanda@etges.com.br> hat am 31. Juli 2019 um 22:07 geschrieben:
Maureen, agree with your points. However it is not my opinion that Mexico or London Summit can be perceived as no impact. Anytime we shall analyze anything with the perspective of the occasion in time. Like in History anyone can criticize any AC/SOs and their constituencies about the poor work done if we look to the past with the experiences and demands of the present.
Mexico was an quite interesting experience to have all ALS from around the world experiment work together with their different cultural behavior, views of the world and ICAnn etc..
London experience was richer with policy discussion going deeply discussed.
Certainly reducing the number of participants is positive to achieve a more focus content and results.
ALAC is the only group embracing the whole world and sometimes is difficult for anyone with a more focused approach to understand its impact. What is quite important is the touched community has appropriated ALAC spread of knowledge and improved the participation after both summits.
Thanks all for sharing different views, we can always enrich the process.
*Vanda Scartezini*
*Polo Consultores Associados*
*Av. Paulista 1159, cj 1004*
*01311-200- Sao Paulo, SP, Brazil*
*Land Line: +55 11 3266.6253*
*Mobile: + 55 11 98181.1464 *
*Sorry for any typos. *
*From: *At-Large <at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> on behalf of Maureen Hilyard <maureen.hilyard@gmail.com> *Date: *Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 21:09 *To: *"karl@cavebear.com" <karl@cavebear.com> *Cc: *'At-Large Worldwide' <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> *Subject: *Re: [At-Large] Fwd: ATLASIII Participation
Karl, I am very grateful that you can see what the ALAC is trying to do with regards to ATLASIII - developing a roadmap for the future.
I cannot imagine that ALAC and At-Large is going to miraculously change overnight when it has been perceived that we made no positive impacts from our previous Summits. However, this time I believe that we are truly attempting to offer an event where participants can get a better understanding not only of why it is important we take the end-users perspective to all discussions that take place in ICANN, but also why it is important that we all share common messages to minimise the confusion that people have about At-Large. This is being supported already by the weekly CPWG meetings and members of this WG who are already committed to this model.
I am thankful that the Board made the decision to reduce the ATLAS funding, and made us change the way we view Summits and what should aim to achieve. This has made us also look not only at what we should do, but also how we should go about doing it.
Evan is correct, we are not providing a SUMMIT in the traditional sense. This was something that had to change with the reduced funding and thus the reduced number for whom we could offer travel sponsorship. We have retained the name ATLAS this time because it is still a gathering of At-Large members.
However, the reductions forced us to deal with challenges, especially with regards to our selection process and the programme. One of the positives that has come out of this is that the ideas for the development of both emerged from discussions with our ATLAS volunteers. The selection process came about through some robust discussion by the members which was endorsed by the five representatives of the ALAC Leadership Team. Even though there are still the inevitable complaints about inequities, the majority of those who were selected, are looking at this as an opportunity to learn more about At-Large and to work on its behalf in the future. This is a primary goal for this ATLAS - the work for these participants will not end with ATLAS in Montreal. There is an expectation of continued engagement even after ATLAS - in their regions, in At-Large and in ICANN. This is where we see that ICANN will get value out of this event.
Because this is a new experience for us, we are still finding our way, but I thank the Staff and the Selection Committee for the hard work they contributed to the selection of those ATLAS participants that ICANN will sponsor for the ATLAS. The ATLAS programme will be more than "just capacity building". The five pre-application modules were to ensure that there was at least a benchmark that had been achieved by all. And while they were basic for many of our experienced members, it was important that everyone was at least starting on the same page, albeit at different levels.
The proposed ATLAS programme will require this knowledge as the groups become involved in the main activity which I believe will help them not only learn more about how At-Large thinking fits into that of the rest of ICANN but also what all the discussions mean to us as end-users. This is the gap of learning we want to close for those newer members of the ATLAS group, supported by our more experienced participants. There is no way you could offer the same level of learning on a webinar and you wouldn’t be able to encourage as much individual participation as will be possible at this event.
Our greatest numbers of participants are justifiably coming from our underdeveloped regions. Evan's complaints that there are few NARALO members in the ATLAS, yet they are the best served of all the regions with regards to ongoing capacity building and updating on latest issues - check out the Community Skype chat just about every week. I thank NARALO members for opening up the opportunity for other less advantaged At-Large members to attend.
I am looking forward not only to what we will achieve at our ATLAS but the new thinking we can inject into our RALOs and our regions and the work that these selected participants will contribute to our At-Large of the future.
My 2c
Maureen
On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 7:24 AM Karl Auerbach <karl@cavebear.com> wrote:
I agree with your dim assessment in many ways, but not all.
There is something that the ALAC can do, and relatively easily.
The issue of naming is beginning to move beyond the domain name system - there will be (and are) issues of naming of "topics" for IoT networking; there are issues in cloud computing of entities as they split, move, and merge; etc.
Now on one hand there is a lot of technological issues in there - which are better left to the IETF and similar groups.
On the other hand there are major non-technical lessons to be learned from ICANN of what ought to be done in the world of governance including issues of whether-or-not-to-govern, what-to-do, what-not-to-do, ownership information access (the whois issue again), etc.
The ALAC of all the bodies in ICANN, is in the best position to step back and give an unbiased (at least, commercially unbiased) assessment and roadmap for that future.
--karl--
On 7/13/19 2:46 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote:
As ICANN enters a period of austerity while it panics its way to re-opening the gTLD floodgates, ALAC is at a crossroads. Ridiculed wherever it is not written off for its navel-gazing and complete ineffectiveness at bringing forth any useful input unique to end users, ALAC struggles for legitimacy whether it knows it or not. No wonder ATLAS 3 was so poorly funded; ICANN suspects that nothing useful (for its purposes) will come out of the current direction of yet more process and more capacity building. They think it's a waste of money so they give the minimum they can get away with. Who can blame them?
ALAC had the chance to prove them wrong this time and to do something different, to take the time necessary to have the mortally necessary debate within ALAC of how it can be relevant to ICANN and revisit how to serve its bylaw-stated mission. It needed to counter the awful external ALAC review with a thoughtful internal one.
But no.
Based on the published objectives of ATLAS 3 <https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/71605234/ATLASIII%20Overvie...>, we are in for more of the same:
· Leadership Development: another way to say "capacity building", training that could be easily be done by webinars and/or the same CBT used to deliver "what is ICANN" that would be accessible by anyone, not just the 60 attendees
· Programming: what are the tasks? "Define and structure", "Develop meeting processes". And the outcomes of programming? Reports, video interviews, and "fully functional next generation leaders".
IOW, continued navel gazing that seems to be focused most on the succession plans of existing leadership. Policy doesn't even get lip service, the word isn't mentioned once.
Nothing in the objectives points to how ALAC can actually work better to understand what end users need from ICANN and then to communicate those needs to the greater community. So why not stop calling it a Summit and call it what it is -- Leadership training? Probably because, presented that way, it wouldn't have been funded. Let's just say it's unlikely there will be an ATLAS 4 once ICANN sees how its money was spent this time.
- Evan
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_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
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aC to SO - no reason Two seats - I have always advocate to have one seat as vote and one as liaison and I can justify : liaisons participate in all “ representing” the views of ALAC/At Large while a voting member shall be there in the interest of whole ICANN Liaison voice can be of real value for ALAC - due to a more independent position Vanda Scartezini Sent from my iPhone Sorry for typos
On 1 Aug 2019, at 09:33, Seun Ojedeji <seun.ojedeji@gmail.com> wrote:
Sent from my mobile Kindly excuse brevity and typos
On Thu, 1 Aug 2019, 10:10 Wolfgang Kleinwächter, <wolfgang@kleinwaechter.info> wrote: Hi,
Mexico there was also a discussion to change the At-Large AC into an At-Large SO. This make no sense anymore.
SO: Agree
But to ask for a second voting seat (to have the same the representation like an SO in the Board) could make sense. This could contribute to more diversity.
SO: Absolutely! my humble self has in the past raised this need, I hope that it can be one of the outcome of the upcoming ATLAS
My proposal for Montreal is to define three or four very concrete issues and to work on language for short resolutions. This could include issues discussed under PDPs or WS2, but also more general issues as cyberstability, DNS market development or human rights
SO: Indeed - few focused issues with trackable outcomes. I note the Chair has provided some interesting response.
Regards PS: Congratulations Wolfgang on your nomcom election/selection - loss/gain to At-Large; it all depends on who is responding :-)
Two cents
Wolfgang
Vanda Scartezini <vanda@etges.com.br> hat am 31. Juli 2019 um 22:07 geschrieben:
Maureen, agree with your points. However it is not my opinion that Mexico or London Summit can be perceived as no impact. Anytime we shall analyze anything with the perspective of the occasion in time. Like in History anyone can criticize any AC/SOs and their constituencies about the poor work done if we look to the past with the experiences and demands of the present.
Mexico was an quite interesting experience to have all ALS from around the world experiment work together with their different cultural behavior, views of the world and ICAnn etc..
London experience was richer with policy discussion going deeply discussed.
Certainly reducing the number of participants is positive to achieve a more focus content and results.
ALAC is the only group embracing the whole world and sometimes is difficult for anyone with a more focused approach to understand its impact. What is quite important is the touched community has appropriated ALAC spread of knowledge and improved the participation after both summits.
Thanks all for sharing different views, we can always enrich the process.
Vanda Scartezini
Polo Consultores Associados
Av. Paulista 1159, cj 1004
01311-200- Sao Paulo, SP, Brazil
Land Line: +55 11 3266.6253
Mobile: + 55 11 98181.1464
Sorry for any typos.
From: At-Large <at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> on behalf of Maureen Hilyard <maureen.hilyard@gmail.com> Date: Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 21:09 To: "karl@cavebear.com" <karl@cavebear.com> Cc: 'At-Large Worldwide' <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Subject: Re: [At-Large] Fwd: ATLASIII Participation
Karl, I am very grateful that you can see what the ALAC is trying to do with regards to ATLASIII - developing a roadmap for the future.
I cannot imagine that ALAC and At-Large is going to miraculously change overnight when it has been perceived that we made no positive impacts from our previous Summits. However, this time I believe that we are truly attempting to offer an event where participants can get a better understanding not only of why it is important we take the end-users perspective to all discussions that take place in ICANN, but also why it is important that we all share common messages to minimise the confusion that people have about At-Large. This is being supported already by the weekly CPWG meetings and members of this WG who are already committed to this model.
I am thankful that the Board made the decision to reduce the ATLAS funding, and made us change the way we view Summits and what should aim to achieve. This has made us also look not only at what we should do, but also how we should go about doing it.
Evan is correct, we are not providing a SUMMIT in the traditional sense. This was something that had to change with the reduced funding and thus the reduced number for whom we could offer travel sponsorship. We have retained the name ATLAS this time because it is still a gathering of At-Large members.
However, the reductions forced us to deal with challenges, especially with regards to our selection process and the programme. One of the positives that has come out of this is that the ideas for the development of both emerged from discussions with our ATLAS volunteers. The selection process came about through some robust discussion by the members which was endorsed by the five representatives of the ALAC Leadership Team. Even though there are still the inevitable complaints about inequities, the majority of those who were selected, are looking at this as an opportunity to learn more about At-Large and to work on its behalf in the future. This is a primary goal for this ATLAS - the work for these participants will not end with ATLAS in Montreal. There is an expectation of continued engagement even after ATLAS - in their regions, in At-Large and in ICANN. This is where we see that ICANN will get value out of this event.
Because this is a new experience for us, we are still finding our way, but I thank the Staff and the Selection Committee for the hard work they contributed to the selection of those ATLAS participants that ICANN will sponsor for the ATLAS. The ATLAS programme will be more than "just capacity building". The five pre-application modules were to ensure that there was at least a benchmark that had been achieved by all. And while they were basic for many of our experienced members, it was important that everyone was at least starting on the same page, albeit at different levels.
The proposed ATLAS programme will require this knowledge as the groups become involved in the main activity which I believe will help them not only learn more about how At-Large thinking fits into that of the rest of ICANN but also what all the discussions mean to us as end-users. This is the gap of learning we want to close for those newer members of the ATLAS group, supported by our more experienced participants. There is no way you could offer the same level of learning on a webinar and you wouldn’t be able to encourage as much individual participation as will be possible at this event.
Our greatest numbers of participants are justifiably coming from our underdeveloped regions. Evan's complaints that there are few NARALO members in the ATLAS, yet they are the best served of all the regions with regards to ongoing capacity building and updating on latest issues - check out the Community Skype chat just about every week. I thank NARALO members for opening up the opportunity for other less advantaged At-Large members to attend.
I am looking forward not only to what we will achieve at our ATLAS but the new thinking we can inject into our RALOs and our regions and the work that these selected participants will contribute to our At-Large of the future.
My 2c Maureen
On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 7:24 AM Karl Auerbach <karl@cavebear.com> wrote:
I agree with your dim assessment in many ways, but not all.
There is something that the ALAC can do, and relatively easily.
The issue of naming is beginning to move beyond the domain name system - there will be (and are) issues of naming of "topics" for IoT networking; there are issues in cloud computing of entities as they split, move, and merge; etc.
Now on one hand there is a lot of technological issues in there - which are better left to the IETF and similar groups.
On the other hand there are major non-technical lessons to be learned from ICANN of what ought to be done in the world of governance including issues of whether-or-not-to-govern, what-to-do, what-not-to-do, ownership information access (the whois issue again), etc.
The ALAC of all the bodies in ICANN, is in the best position to step back and give an unbiased (at least, commercially unbiased) assessment and roadmap for that future.
--karl--
On 7/13/19 2:46 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote:
As ICANN enters a period of austerity while it panics its way to re-opening the gTLD floodgates, ALAC is at a crossroads. Ridiculed wherever it is not written off for its navel-gazing and complete ineffectiveness at bringing forth any useful input unique to end users, ALAC struggles for legitimacy whether it knows it or not. No wonder ATLAS 3 was so poorly funded; ICANN suspects that nothing useful (for its purposes) will come out of the current direction of yet more process and more capacity building. They think it's a waste of money so they give the minimum they can get away with. Who can blame them?
ALAC had the chance to prove them wrong this time and to do something different, to take the time necessary to have the mortally necessary debate within ALAC of how it can be relevant to ICANN and revisit how to serve its bylaw-stated mission. It needed to counter the awful external ALAC review with a thoughtful internal one.
But no.
Based on the published objectives of ATLAS 3, we are in for more of the same:
· Leadership Development: another way to say "capacity building", training that could be easily be done by webinars and/or the same CBT used to deliver "what is ICANN" that would be accessible by anyone, not just the 60 attendees
· Programming: what are the tasks? "Define and structure", "Develop meeting processes". And the outcomes of programming? Reports, video interviews, and "fully functional next generation leaders".
IOW, continued navel gazing that seems to be focused most on the succession plans of existing leadership. Policy doesn't even get lip service, the word isn't mentioned once.
Nothing in the objectives points to how ALAC can actually work better to understand what end users need from ICANN and then to communicate those needs to the greater community. So why not stop calling it a Summit and call it what it is -- Leadership training? Probably because, presented that way, it wouldn't have been funded. Let's just say it's unlikely there will be an ATLAS 4 once ICANN sees how its money was spent this time.
- Evan
_______________________________________________
At-Large mailing list
At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org
https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
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On 8/1/19 2:09 AM, Wolfgang Kleinwächter wrote:
I was involved in the Mexico Summit (inter alia by creating the acronym :-))) ). In my opinion the Mexcio summit did have an impact. We worked on short "Resolutions" which were handed over to the Board. One resolution was on At Large representation in the ICANN Board. We were calling for two voting seats in the Board. We did not get the two voting seats
It is worth remembering that when ICANN was still "NewCo" that a promise was made that the Board of Directors would be dominated by a majority of seats chosen by the public. So asking for two seats is asking for a crust of stale bread when we were promised a feast. I do remember the horrific pushback we got when our 2009 board "At Large Advisory Committee" suggested any public seat (one of which became the one we have now.) Take a look at my "concurrence" beginning at page 32: https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/final-report-alac-review-28jan09... --karl--
Dear all, As a number of community members experienced problems with visa applications, shouldn't be rational to find a solution for those who couldn't get visas to attend ATLASIII. The ATLASIII scholarship can be extended to the next/other ICANN meeting, for instance. Perhaps, other solutions can be discussed, as well. Thank you and regards, Narine On Thu, 1 Aug 2019, 22:25 Karl Auerbach, <karl@cavebear.com> wrote:
On 8/1/19 2:09 AM, Wolfgang Kleinwächter wrote:
I was involved in the Mexico Summit (inter alia by creating the acronym :-))) ). In my opinion the Mexcio summit did have an impact. We worked on short "Resolutions" which were handed over to the Board. One resolution was on At Large representation in the ICANN Board. We were calling for two voting seats in the Board. We did not get the two voting seats
It is worth remembering that when ICANN was still "NewCo" that a promise was made that the Board of Directors would be dominated by a majority of seats chosen by the public. So asking for two seats is asking for a crust of stale bread when we were promised a feast.
I do remember the horrific pushback we got when our 2009 board "At Large Advisory Committee" suggested any public seat (one of which became the one we have now.)
Take a look at my "concurrence" beginning at page 32:
https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/final-report-alac-review-28jan09...
--karl--
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At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Please check this link https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VjDNprfL8jmHM92sC2sD5oahOuqy3qJaQHDl... On Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 8:42 PM Carlos Raul Gutierrez <carlosraul@gutierrez.se> wrote:
Die we have a number of people who did not get a visa, and how many are still waiting for one? It is difficult to think about the issue without knowing the dimension.
Thanks! Carlos Raúl Gutiérrez
El 12 oct. 2019 02:33, Narine Khachatryan <ms.narine.khachatryan@gmail.com> escribió:
Dear all,
As a number of community members experienced problems with visa applications, shouldn't be rational to find a solution for those who couldn't get visas to attend ATLASIII.
The ATLASIII scholarship can be extended to the next/other ICANN meeting, for instance. Perhaps, other solutions can be discussed, as well.
Thank you and regards,
Narine
On Thu, 1 Aug 2019, 22:25 Karl Auerbach, <karl@cavebear.com> wrote:
On 8/1/19 2:09 AM, Wolfgang Kleinwächter wrote:
I was involved in the Mexico Summit (inter alia by creating the acronym :-))) ). In my opinion the Mexcio summit did have an impact. We worked on short "Resolutions" which were handed over to the Board. One resolution was on At Large representation in the ICANN Board. We were calling for two voting seats in the Board. We did not get the two voting seats
It is worth remembering that when ICANN was still "NewCo" that a promise was made that the Board of Directors would be dominated by a majority of seats chosen by the public. So asking for two seats is asking for a crust of stale bread when we were promised a feast.
I do remember the horrific pushback we got when our 2009 board "At Large Advisory Committee" suggested any public seat (one of which became the one we have now.)
Take a look at my "concurrence" beginning at page 32:
https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/final-report-alac-review-28jan09...
--karl--
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Is that the full list? I am sure not And the one with visa issue may not be on that list? Sébastien Bachollet Envoyé de mon iPhone
Le 12 oct. 2019 à 17:42, Carlos Raul Gutierrez <carlosraul@gutierrez.se> a écrit :
Thank you!
So no visa has been rejected and 5 are reaplying correct?
Thanks! Carlos Raúl Gutiérrez
El 12 oct. 2019 09:23, Shreedeep Rayamajhi <weaker41@gmail.com> escribió: Please check this link
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VjDNprfL8jmHM92sC2sD5oahOuqy3qJaQHDl...
On Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 8:42 PM Carlos Raul Gutierrez <carlosraul@gutierrez.se> wrote: Die we have a number of people who did not get a visa, and how many are still waiting for one? It is difficult to think about the issue without knowing the dimension.
Thanks! Carlos Raúl Gutiérrez
El 12 oct. 2019 02:33, Narine Khachatryan <ms.narine.khachatryan@gmail.com> escribió: Dear all,
As a number of community members experienced problems with visa applications, shouldn't be rational to find a solution for those who couldn't get visas to attend ATLASIII.
The ATLASIII scholarship can be extended to the next/other ICANN meeting, for instance. Perhaps, other solutions can be discussed, as well.
Thank you and regards,
Narine
On Thu, 1 Aug 2019, 22:25 Karl Auerbach, <karl@cavebear.com> wrote:
On 8/1/19 2:09 AM, Wolfgang Kleinwächter wrote:
I was involved in the Mexico Summit (inter alia by creating the acronym :-))) ). In my opinion the Mexcio summit did have an impact. We worked on short "Resolutions" which were handed over to the Board. One resolution was on At Large representation in the ICANN Board. We were calling for two voting seats in the Board. We did not get the two voting seats
It is worth remembering that when ICANN was still "NewCo" that a promise was made that the Board of Directors would be dominated by a majority of seats chosen by the public. So asking for two seats is asking for a crust of stale bread when we were promised a feast.
I do remember the horrific pushback we got when our 2009 board "At Large Advisory Committee" suggested any public seat (one of which became the one we have now.)
Take a look at my "concurrence" beginning at page 32:
https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/final-report-alac-review-28jan09...
--karl--
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Something is wrong here. I had already informed Travel Support that my visa for Canada was already granted. After having informed that, I received from Travel support the notification of a hotel for the sole purpose of processing my visa and that afterwards they would confirm me in which hotel I would stay .. And in this reference document I figure without a visa ... I hope that everything is registered, because together with the visa information granted, I sent the forms for the transfer of the perdiem. Regards Alberto De: At-Large <at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> en nombre de Sebastien Bachollet <sebicann@bachollet.fr> Fecha: sábado, 12 de octubre de 2019, 13:17 Para: Carlos Raul Gutierrez <carlosraul@gutierrez.se> CC: Shreedeep Rayamajhi <weaker41@gmail.com>, <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Asunto: Re: [At-Large] : ATLASIII Participation Is that the full list? I am sure not And the one with visa issue may not be on that list? Sébastien Bachollet Envoyé de mon iPhone Le 12 oct. 2019 à 17:42, Carlos Raul Gutierrez <carlosraul@gutierrez.se> a écrit : Thank you! So no visa has been rejected and 5 are reaplying correct? Thanks! Carlos Raúl Gutiérrez El 12 oct. 2019 09:23, Shreedeep Rayamajhi <weaker41@gmail.com> escribió: Please check this link https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VjDNprfL8jmHM92sC2sD5oahOuqy3qJaQHDl... On Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 8:42 PM Carlos Raul Gutierrez <carlosraul@gutierrez.se> wrote: Die we have a number of people who did not get a visa, and how many are still waiting for one? It is difficult to think about the issue without knowing the dimension. Thanks! Carlos Raúl Gutiérrez El 12 oct. 2019 02:33, Narine Khachatryan <ms.narine.khachatryan@gmail.com> escribió: Dear all, As a number of community members experienced problems with visa applications, shouldn't be rational to find a solution for those who couldn't get visas to attend ATLASIII. The ATLASIII scholarship can be extended to the next/other ICANN meeting, for instance. Perhaps, other solutions can be discussed, as well. Thank you and regards, Narine On Thu, 1 Aug 2019, 22:25 Karl Auerbach, <karl@cavebear.com> wrote: On 8/1/19 2:09 AM, Wolfgang Kleinwächter wrote:
I was involved in the Mexico Summit (inter alia by creating the acronym :-))) ). In my opinion the Mexcio summit did have an impact. We worked on short "Resolutions" which were handed over to the Board. One resolution was on At Large representation in the ICANN Board. We were calling for two voting seats in the Board. We did not get the two voting seats
It is worth remembering that when ICANN was still "NewCo" that a promise was made that the Board of Directors would be dominated by a majority of seats chosen by the public. So asking for two seats is asking for a crust of stale bread when we were promised a feast. I do remember the horrific pushback we got when our 2009 board "At Large Advisory Committee" suggested any public seat (one of which became the one we have now.) Take a look at my "concurrence" beginning at page 32: https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/final-report-alac-review-28jan09... --karl-- _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
ICANN Travel Support have done excellent work these days (as always!), I am very much grateful to Nichole Kennedy and Joseph de Jesus. My proposal was about other issue: to find a solution for those, who wouldn't be able getting visas to Canada. As getting visa can be beyond one's will and willingness to participate, everyone who has been awarded ATLASIII scholarship, should be able (ideally) to benefit from that opportunity. Best regards to all, Narine On Sat, Oct 12, 2019 at 8:31 PM Alberto Soto <alberto@soto.net.ar> wrote:
Something is wrong here. I had already informed Travel Support that my visa for Canada was already granted. After having informed that, I received from Travel support the notification of a hotel for the sole purpose of processing my visa and that afterwards they would confirm me in which hotel I would stay .. And in this reference document I figure without a visa ...
I hope that everything is registered, because together with the visa information granted, I sent the forms for the transfer of the perdiem.
Regards
Alberto
*De: *At-Large <at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> en nombre de Sebastien Bachollet <sebicann@bachollet.fr> *Fecha: *sábado, 12 de octubre de 2019, 13:17 *Para: *Carlos Raul Gutierrez <carlosraul@gutierrez.se> *CC: *Shreedeep Rayamajhi <weaker41@gmail.com>, < at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> *Asunto: *Re: [At-Large] : ATLASIII Participation
Is that the full list?
I am sure not
And the one with visa issue may not be on that list?
Sébastien Bachollet
Envoyé de mon iPhone
Le 12 oct. 2019 à 17:42, Carlos Raul Gutierrez <carlosraul@gutierrez.se> a écrit :
Thank you!
So no visa has been rejected and 5 are reaplying correct?
Thanks! Carlos Raúl Gutiérrez
El 12 oct. 2019 09:23, Shreedeep Rayamajhi <weaker41@gmail.com> escribió:
Please check this link
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VjDNprfL8jmHM92sC2sD5oahOuqy3qJaQHDl...
On Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 8:42 PM Carlos Raul Gutierrez < carlosraul@gutierrez.se> wrote:
Die we have a number of people who did not get a visa, and how many are still waiting for one? It is difficult to think about the issue without knowing the dimension.
Thanks! Carlos Raúl Gutiérrez
El 12 oct. 2019 02:33, Narine Khachatryan <ms.narine.khachatryan@gmail.com> escribió:
Dear all,
As a number of community members experienced problems with visa applications, shouldn't be rational to find a solution for those who couldn't get visas to attend ATLASIII.
The ATLASIII scholarship can be extended to the next/other ICANN meeting, for instance. Perhaps, other solutions can be discussed, as well.
Thank you and regards,
Narine
On Thu, 1 Aug 2019, 22:25 Karl Auerbach, <karl@cavebear.com> wrote:
On 8/1/19 2:09 AM, Wolfgang Kleinwächter wrote:
I was involved in the Mexico Summit (inter alia by creating the acronym :-))) ). In my opinion the Mexcio summit did have an impact. We worked on short "Resolutions" which were handed over to the Board. One resolution was on At Large representation in the ICANN Board. We were calling for two voting seats in the Board. We did not get the two voting seats
It is worth remembering that when ICANN was still "NewCo" that a promise was made that the Board of Directors would be dominated by a majority of seats chosen by the public. So asking for two seats is asking for a crust of stale bread when we were promised a feast.
I do remember the horrific pushback we got when our 2009 board "At Large Advisory Committee" suggested any public seat (one of which became the one we have now.)
Take a look at my "concurrence" beginning at page 32:
https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/final-report-alac-review-28jan09...
--karl--
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
The subject line says "ATLAS 3 participation but the file attachment concerns "NASIG Travel" which is why some names are not on the list??? Sivasubramanian M twitter.com/shivaindia On Sat, Oct 12, 2019 at 11:15 PM Narine Khachatryan <ms.narine.khachatryan@gmail.com> wrote:
ICANN Travel Support have done excellent work these days (as always!), I am very much grateful to Nichole Kennedy and Joseph de Jesus.
My proposal was about other issue: to find a solution for those, who wouldn't be able getting visas to Canada.
As getting visa can be beyond one's will and willingness to participate, everyone who has been awarded ATLASIII scholarship, should be able (ideally) to benefit from that opportunity.
Best regards to all,
Narine
On Sat, Oct 12, 2019 at 8:31 PM Alberto Soto <alberto@soto.net.ar> wrote:
Something is wrong here. I had already informed Travel Support that my visa for Canada was already granted. After having informed that, I received from Travel support the notification of a hotel for the sole purpose of processing my visa and that afterwards they would confirm me in which hotel I would stay .. And in this reference document I figure without a visa ...
I hope that everything is registered, because together with the visa information granted, I sent the forms for the transfer of the perdiem.
Regards
Alberto
De: At-Large <at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> en nombre de Sebastien Bachollet <sebicann@bachollet.fr> Fecha: sábado, 12 de octubre de 2019, 13:17 Para: Carlos Raul Gutierrez <carlosraul@gutierrez.se> CC: Shreedeep Rayamajhi <weaker41@gmail.com>, <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Asunto: Re: [At-Large] : ATLASIII Participation
Is that the full list?
I am sure not
And the one with visa issue may not be on that list?
Sébastien Bachollet
Envoyé de mon iPhone
Le 12 oct. 2019 à 17:42, Carlos Raul Gutierrez <carlosraul@gutierrez.se> a écrit :
Thank you!
So no visa has been rejected and 5 are reaplying correct?
Thanks! Carlos Raúl Gutiérrez
El 12 oct. 2019 09:23, Shreedeep Rayamajhi <weaker41@gmail.com> escribió:
Please check this link
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VjDNprfL8jmHM92sC2sD5oahOuqy3qJaQHDl...
On Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 8:42 PM Carlos Raul Gutierrez <carlosraul@gutierrez.se> wrote:
Die we have a number of people who did not get a visa, and how many are still waiting for one? It is difficult to think about the issue without knowing the dimension.
Thanks! Carlos Raúl Gutiérrez
El 12 oct. 2019 02:33, Narine Khachatryan <ms.narine.khachatryan@gmail.com> escribió:
Dear all,
As a number of community members experienced problems with visa applications, shouldn't be rational to find a solution for those who couldn't get visas to attend ATLASIII.
The ATLASIII scholarship can be extended to the next/other ICANN meeting, for instance. Perhaps, other solutions can be discussed, as well.
Thank you and regards,
Narine
On Thu, 1 Aug 2019, 22:25 Karl Auerbach, <karl@cavebear.com> wrote:
On 8/1/19 2:09 AM, Wolfgang Kleinwächter wrote:
I was involved in the Mexico Summit (inter alia by creating the acronym :-))) ). In my opinion the Mexcio summit did have an impact. We worked on short "Resolutions" which were handed over to the Board. One resolution was on At Large representation in the ICANN Board. We were calling for two voting seats in the Board. We did not get the two voting seats
It is worth remembering that when ICANN was still "NewCo" that a promise was made that the Board of Directors would be dominated by a majority of seats chosen by the public. So asking for two seats is asking for a crust of stale bread when we were promised a feast.
I do remember the horrific pushback we got when our 2009 board "At Large Advisory Committee" suggested any public seat (one of which became the one we have now.)
Take a look at my "concurrence" beginning at page 32:
https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/final-report-alac-review-28jan09...
--karl--
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I have already informed to travel support and send my copies of visa granted and had received the itinerary and tentative hotel booking details. Thank you, Bikram Shrestha Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 13, 2019, at 03:56, sivasubramanian muthusamy <6.internet@gmail.com> wrote:
The subject line says "ATLAS 3 participation but the file attachment concerns "NASIG Travel" which is why some names are not on the list???
Sivasubramanian M twitter.com/shivaindia
On Sat, Oct 12, 2019 at 11:15 PM Narine Khachatryan <ms.narine.khachatryan@gmail.com> wrote:
ICANN Travel Support have done excellent work these days (as always!), I am very much grateful to Nichole Kennedy and Joseph de Jesus.
My proposal was about other issue: to find a solution for those, who wouldn't be able getting visas to Canada.
As getting visa can be beyond one's will and willingness to participate, everyone who has been awarded ATLASIII scholarship, should be able (ideally) to benefit from that opportunity.
Best regards to all,
Narine
On Sat, Oct 12, 2019 at 8:31 PM Alberto Soto <alberto@soto.net.ar> wrote:
Something is wrong here. I had already informed Travel Support that my visa for Canada was already granted. After having informed that, I received from Travel support the notification of a hotel for the sole purpose of processing my visa and that afterwards they would confirm me in which hotel I would stay .. And in this reference document I figure without a visa ...
I hope that everything is registered, because together with the visa information granted, I sent the forms for the transfer of the perdiem.
Regards
Alberto
De: At-Large <at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> en nombre de Sebastien Bachollet <sebicann@bachollet.fr> Fecha: sábado, 12 de octubre de 2019, 13:17 Para: Carlos Raul Gutierrez <carlosraul@gutierrez.se> CC: Shreedeep Rayamajhi <weaker41@gmail.com>, <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Asunto: Re: [At-Large] : ATLASIII Participation
Is that the full list?
I am sure not
And the one with visa issue may not be on that list?
Sébastien Bachollet
Envoyé de mon iPhone
Le 12 oct. 2019 à 17:42, Carlos Raul Gutierrez <carlosraul@gutierrez.se> a écrit :
Thank you!
So no visa has been rejected and 5 are reaplying correct?
Thanks! Carlos Raúl Gutiérrez
El 12 oct. 2019 09:23, Shreedeep Rayamajhi <weaker41@gmail.com> escribió:
Please check this link
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VjDNprfL8jmHM92sC2sD5oahOuqy3qJaQHDl...
On Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 8:42 PM Carlos Raul Gutierrez <carlosraul@gutierrez.se> wrote:
Die we have a number of people who did not get a visa, and how many are still waiting for one? It is difficult to think about the issue without knowing the dimension.
Thanks! Carlos Raúl Gutiérrez
El 12 oct. 2019 02:33, Narine Khachatryan <ms.narine.khachatryan@gmail.com> escribió:
Dear all,
As a number of community members experienced problems with visa applications, shouldn't be rational to find a solution for those who couldn't get visas to attend ATLASIII.
The ATLASIII scholarship can be extended to the next/other ICANN meeting, for instance. Perhaps, other solutions can be discussed, as well.
Thank you and regards,
Narine
On Thu, 1 Aug 2019, 22:25 Karl Auerbach, <karl@cavebear.com> wrote:
On 8/1/19 2:09 AM, Wolfgang Kleinwächter wrote:
I was involved in the Mexico Summit (inter alia by creating the acronym :-))) ). In my opinion the Mexcio summit did have an impact. We worked on short "Resolutions" which were handed over to the Board. One resolution was on At Large representation in the ICANN Board. We were calling for two voting seats in the Board. We did not get the two voting seats
It is worth remembering that when ICANN was still "NewCo" that a promise was made that the Board of Directors would be dominated by a majority of seats chosen by the public. So asking for two seats is asking for a crust of stale bread when we were promised a feast.
I do remember the horrific pushback we got when our 2009 board "At Large Advisory Committee" suggested any public seat (one of which became the one we have now.)
Take a look at my "concurrence" beginning at page 32:
https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/final-report-alac-review-28jan09...
--karl--
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The file should be updated based on ATLAS3 participant. I think most of applicant have got VISA except 5 already reapplying . I also thanks to ICANN travel support team for their excellent work and prompt co-operation. Regards, Jahangir On Sun, Oct 13, 2019 at 6:26 AM Bikram Shrestha <bikram.shrestha@idea.com.np> wrote:
I have already informed to travel support and send my copies of visa granted and had received the itinerary and tentative hotel booking details.
Thank you, Bikram Shrestha Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 13, 2019, at 03:56, sivasubramanian muthusamy < 6.internet@gmail.com> wrote:
The subject line says "ATLAS 3 participation but the file attachment concerns "NASIG Travel" which is why some names are not on the list???
Sivasubramanian M twitter.com/shivaindia
On Sat, Oct 12, 2019 at 11:15 PM Narine Khachatryan <ms.narine.khachatryan@gmail.com> wrote:
ICANN Travel Support have done excellent work these days (as always!), I am very much grateful to Nichole Kennedy and Joseph de Jesus.
My proposal was about other issue: to find a solution for those, who wouldn't be able getting visas to Canada.
As getting visa can be beyond one's will and willingness to participate, everyone who has been awarded ATLASIII scholarship, should be able (ideally) to benefit from that opportunity.
Best regards to all,
Narine
On Sat, Oct 12, 2019 at 8:31 PM Alberto Soto <alberto@soto.net.ar> wrote:
Something is wrong here. I had already informed Travel Support that my visa for Canada was already granted. After having informed that, I received from Travel support the notification of a hotel for the sole purpose of processing my visa and that afterwards they would confirm me in which hotel I would stay .. And in this reference document I figure without a visa ...
I hope that everything is registered, because together with the visa information granted, I sent the forms for the transfer of the perdiem.
Regards
Alberto
De: At-Large <at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> en nombre de Sebastien Bachollet <sebicann@bachollet.fr> Fecha: sábado, 12 de octubre de 2019, 13:17 Para: Carlos Raul Gutierrez <carlosraul@gutierrez.se> CC: Shreedeep Rayamajhi <weaker41@gmail.com>, < at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Asunto: Re: [At-Large] : ATLASIII Participation
Is that the full list?
I am sure not
And the one with visa issue may not be on that list?
Sébastien Bachollet
Envoyé de mon iPhone
Le 12 oct. 2019 à 17:42, Carlos Raul Gutierrez < carlosraul@gutierrez.se> a écrit :
Thank you!
So no visa has been rejected and 5 are reaplying correct?
Thanks! Carlos Raúl Gutiérrez
El 12 oct. 2019 09:23, Shreedeep Rayamajhi <weaker41@gmail.com> escribió:
Please check this link
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VjDNprfL8jmHM92sC2sD5oahOuqy3qJaQHDl...
On Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 8:42 PM Carlos Raul Gutierrez <
carlosraul@gutierrez.se> wrote:
Die we have a number of people who did not get a visa, and how many
are still waiting for one? It is difficult to think about the issue without knowing the dimension.
Thanks! Carlos Raúl Gutiérrez
El 12 oct. 2019 02:33, Narine Khachatryan <
ms.narine.khachatryan@gmail.com> escribió:
Dear all,
As a number of community members experienced problems with visa
applications, shouldn't be rational to find a solution for those who couldn't get visas to attend ATLASIII.
The ATLASIII scholarship can be extended to the next/other ICANN
meeting, for instance. Perhaps, other solutions can be discussed, as well.
Thank you and regards,
Narine
On Thu, 1 Aug 2019, 22:25 Karl Auerbach, <karl@cavebear.com> wrote:
On 8/1/19 2:09 AM, Wolfgang Kleinwächter wrote:
I was involved in the Mexico Summit (inter alia by creating the acronym :-))) ). In my opinion the Mexcio summit did have an impact. We worked on short "Resolutions" which were handed over to the Board. One resolution was on At Large representation in the ICANN Board. We were calling for two voting seats in the Board. We did not get the two voting seats
It is worth remembering that when ICANN was still "NewCo" that a
promise
was made that the Board of Directors would be dominated by a majority of seats chosen by the public. So asking for two seats is asking for a crust of stale bread when we were promised a feast.
I do remember the horrific pushback we got when our 2009 board "At Large Advisory Committee" suggested any public seat (one of which became the one we have now.)
Take a look at my "concurrence" beginning at page 32:
https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/final-report-alac-review-28jan09...
--karl--
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your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
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Dear Shreedeep, I believe that the file is not up to date. For instance, I am not appearing, but have already the confirmation and the ticket. Cheers, Roberto On 12.10.2019, at 17:23, Shreedeep Rayamajhi <weaker41@gmail.com<mailto:weaker41@gmail.com>> wrote: Please check this link https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VjDNprfL8jmHM92sC2sD5oahOuqy3qJaQHDl... On Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 8:42 PM Carlos Raul Gutierrez <carlosraul@gutierrez.se<mailto:carlosraul@gutierrez.se>> wrote: Die we have a number of people who did not get a visa, and how many are still waiting for one? It is difficult to think about the issue without knowing the dimension. Thanks! Carlos Raúl Gutiérrez El 12 oct. 2019 02:33, Narine Khachatryan <ms.narine.khachatryan@gmail.com<mailto:ms.narine.khachatryan@gmail.com>> escribió: Dear all, As a number of community members experienced problems with visa applications, shouldn't be rational to find a solution for those who couldn't get visas to attend ATLASIII. The ATLASIII scholarship can be extended to the next/other ICANN meeting, for instance. Perhaps, other solutions can be discussed, as well. Thank you and regards, Narine On Thu, 1 Aug 2019, 22:25 Karl Auerbach, <karl@cavebear.com<mailto:karl@cavebear.com>> wrote: On 8/1/19 2:09 AM, Wolfgang Kleinwächter wrote:
I was involved in the Mexico Summit (inter alia by creating the acronym :-))) ). In my opinion the Mexcio summit did have an impact. We worked on short "Resolutions" which were handed over to the Board. One resolution was on At Large representation in the ICANN Board. We were calling for two voting seats in the Board. We did not get the two voting seats
It is worth remembering that when ICANN was still "NewCo" that a promise was made that the Board of Directors would be dominated by a majority of seats chosen by the public. So asking for two seats is asking for a crust of stale bread when we were promised a feast. I do remember the horrific pushback we got when our 2009 board "At Large Advisory Committee" suggested any public seat (one of which became the one we have now.) Take a look at my "concurrence" beginning at page 32: https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/final-report-alac-review-28jan09... --karl-- _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org<mailto:At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org<http://atlarge.icann.org/> _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org<mailto:At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org<http://atlarge.icann.org/> _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org<mailto:At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Hello! I think the file are the list of attendees for NASIG. Yours truly,Aris Ignacio On Sunday, 13 October 2019, 08:33:00 pm GMT+8, Roberto Gaetano <roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com> wrote: Dear Shreedeep,I believe that the file is not up to date.For instance, I am not appearing, but have already the confirmation and the ticket.Cheers,Roberto On 12.10.2019, at 17:23, Shreedeep Rayamajhi <weaker41@gmail.com> wrote: Please check this link https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VjDNprfL8jmHM92sC2sD5oahOuqy3qJaQHDl... On Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 8:42 PM Carlos Raul Gutierrez <carlosraul@gutierrez.se> wrote: Die we have a number of people who did not get a visa, and how many are still waiting for one? It is difficult to think about the issue without knowing the dimension. Thanks! Carlos Raúl Gutiérrez El 12 oct. 2019 02:33, Narine Khachatryan <ms.narine.khachatryan@gmail.com> escribió: Dear all, As a number of community members experienced problems with visa applications, shouldn't be rational to find a solution for those who couldn't get visas to attend ATLASIII. The ATLASIII scholarship can be extended to the next/other ICANN meeting, for instance. Perhaps, other solutions can be discussed, as well. Thank you and regards, Narine On Thu, 1 Aug 2019, 22:25 Karl Auerbach, <karl@cavebear.com> wrote: On 8/1/19 2:09 AM, Wolfgang Kleinwächter wrote:
I was involved in the Mexico Summit (inter alia by creating the acronym :-))) ). In my opinion the Mexcio summit did have an impact. We worked on short "Resolutions" which were handed over to the Board. One resolution was on At Large representation in the ICANN Board. We were calling for two voting seats in the Board. We did not get the two voting seats
It is worth remembering that when ICANN was still "NewCo" that a promise was made that the Board of Directors would be dominated by a majority of seats chosen by the public. So asking for two seats is asking for a crust of stale bread when we were promised a feast. I do remember the horrific pushback we got when our 2009 board "At Large Advisory Committee" suggested any public seat (one of which became the one we have now.) Take a look at my "concurrence" beginning at page 32: https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/final-report-alac-review-28jan09... --karl-- _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Thanks - that explains why! R On 13.10.2019, at 14:35, Aris Ignacio <arisignacio@yahoo.com<mailto:arisignacio@yahoo.com>> wrote: Hello! I think the file are the list of attendees for NASIG. Yours truly, Aris Ignacio On Sunday, 13 October 2019, 08:33:00 pm GMT+8, Roberto Gaetano <roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com<mailto:roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com>> wrote: Dear Shreedeep, I believe that the file is not up to date. For instance, I am not appearing, but have already the confirmation and the ticket. Cheers, Roberto On 12.10.2019, at 17:23, Shreedeep Rayamajhi <weaker41@gmail.com<mailto:weaker41@gmail.com>> wrote: Please check this link https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VjDNprfL8jmHM92sC2sD5oahOuqy3qJaQHDl... On Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 8:42 PM Carlos Raul Gutierrez <carlosraul@gutierrez.se<mailto:carlosraul@gutierrez.se>> wrote: Die we have a number of people who did not get a visa, and how many are still waiting for one? It is difficult to think about the issue without knowing the dimension. Thanks! Carlos Raúl Gutiérrez El 12 oct. 2019 02:33, Narine Khachatryan <ms.narine.khachatryan@gmail.com<mailto:ms.narine.khachatryan@gmail.com>> escribió: Dear all, As a number of community members experienced problems with visa applications, shouldn't be rational to find a solution for those who couldn't get visas to attend ATLASIII. The ATLASIII scholarship can be extended to the next/other ICANN meeting, for instance. Perhaps, other solutions can be discussed, as well. Thank you and regards, Narine On Thu, 1 Aug 2019, 22:25 Karl Auerbach, <karl@cavebear.com<mailto:karl@cavebear.com>> wrote: On 8/1/19 2:09 AM, Wolfgang Kleinwächter wrote:
I was involved in the Mexico Summit (inter alia by creating the acronym :-))) ). In my opinion the Mexcio summit did have an impact. We worked on short "Resolutions" which were handed over to the Board. One resolution was on At Large representation in the ICANN Board. We were calling for two voting seats in the Board. We did not get the two voting seats
It is worth remembering that when ICANN was still "NewCo" that a promise was made that the Board of Directors would be dominated by a majority of seats chosen by the public. So asking for two seats is asking for a crust of stale bread when we were promised a feast. I do remember the horrific pushback we got when our 2009 board "At Large Advisory Committee" suggested any public seat (one of which became the one we have now.) Take a look at my "concurrence" beginning at page 32: https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/final-report-alac-review-28jan09... --karl-- _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org<mailto:At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org<http://atlarge.icann.org/> _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org<mailto:At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org<http://atlarge.icann.org/> _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org<mailto:At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org<mailto:At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org<http://atlarge.icann.org/> _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Yes its a list of NASIG participants and I think, it was just a reference that we need to create like such for Atlas III participants. Regards Shreedeep On Sun, Oct 13, 2019, 6:41 PM Roberto Gaetano <roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com> wrote:
Thanks - that explains why! R
On 13.10.2019, at 14:35, Aris Ignacio <arisignacio@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hello!
I think the file are the list of attendees for NASIG.
Yours truly, Aris Ignacio
On Sunday, 13 October 2019, 08:33:00 pm GMT+8, Roberto Gaetano < roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com> wrote:
Dear Shreedeep, I believe that the file is not up to date. For instance, I am not appearing, but have already the confirmation and the ticket. Cheers, Roberto
On 12.10.2019, at 17:23, Shreedeep Rayamajhi <weaker41@gmail.com> wrote:
Please check this link
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VjDNprfL8jmHM92sC2sD5oahOuqy3qJaQHDl...
On Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 8:42 PM Carlos Raul Gutierrez < carlosraul@gutierrez.se> wrote:
Die we have a number of people who did not get a visa, and how many are still waiting for one? It is difficult to think about the issue without knowing the dimension.
Thanks! Carlos Raúl Gutiérrez
El 12 oct. 2019 02:33, Narine Khachatryan <ms.narine.khachatryan@gmail.com> escribió:
Dear all,
As a number of community members experienced problems with visa applications, shouldn't be rational to find a solution for those who couldn't get visas to attend ATLASIII.
The ATLASIII scholarship can be extended to the next/other ICANN meeting, for instance. Perhaps, other solutions can be discussed, as well.
Thank you and regards,
Narine
On Thu, 1 Aug 2019, 22:25 Karl Auerbach, <karl@cavebear.com> wrote:
On 8/1/19 2:09 AM, Wolfgang Kleinwächter wrote:
I was involved in the Mexico Summit (inter alia by creating the acronym :-))) ). In my opinion the Mexcio summit did have an impact. We worked on short "Resolutions" which were handed over to the Board. One resolution was on At Large representation in the ICANN Board. We were calling for two voting seats in the Board. We did not get the two voting seats
It is worth remembering that when ICANN was still "NewCo" that a promise was made that the Board of Directors would be dominated by a majority of seats chosen by the public. So asking for two seats is asking for a crust of stale bread when we were promised a feast.
I do remember the horrific pushback we got when our 2009 board "At Large Advisory Committee" suggested any public seat (one of which became the one we have now.)
Take a look at my "concurrence" beginning at page 32:
https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/final-report-alac-review-28jan09...
--karl--
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
All This is Glenn’s file for nasig and not for atlas3. Example the hotels listed are only for nasig Judith Sent from my iPhone Judith@jhellerstein.com Skype ID:Judithhellerstein
On Oct 13, 2019, at 8:32 AM, Roberto Gaetano <roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com> wrote:
Dear Shreedeep, I believe that the file is not up to date. For instance, I am not appearing, but have already the confirmation and the ticket. Cheers, Roberto
On 12.10.2019, at 17:23, Shreedeep Rayamajhi <weaker41@gmail.com> wrote:
Please check this link
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VjDNprfL8jmHM92sC2sD5oahOuqy3qJaQHDl...
On Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 8:42 PM Carlos Raul Gutierrez <carlosraul@gutierrez.se> wrote: Die we have a number of people who did not get a visa, and how many are still waiting for one? It is difficult to think about the issue without knowing the dimension.
Thanks! Carlos Raúl Gutiérrez
El 12 oct. 2019 02:33, Narine Khachatryan <ms.narine.khachatryan@gmail.com> escribió: Dear all,
As a number of community members experienced problems with visa applications, shouldn't be rational to find a solution for those who couldn't get visas to attend ATLASIII.
The ATLASIII scholarship can be extended to the next/other ICANN meeting, for instance. Perhaps, other solutions can be discussed, as well.
Thank you and regards,
Narine
On Thu, 1 Aug 2019, 22:25 Karl Auerbach, <karl@cavebear.com> wrote:
On 8/1/19 2:09 AM, Wolfgang Kleinwächter wrote:
I was involved in the Mexico Summit (inter alia by creating the acronym :-))) ). In my opinion the Mexcio summit did have an impact. We worked on short "Resolutions" which were handed over to the Board. One resolution was on At Large representation in the ICANN Board. We were calling for two voting seats in the Board. We did not get the two voting seats
It is worth remembering that when ICANN was still "NewCo" that a promise was made that the Board of Directors would be dominated by a majority of seats chosen by the public. So asking for two seats is asking for a crust of stale bread when we were promised a feast.
I do remember the horrific pushback we got when our 2009 board "At Large Advisory Committee" suggested any public seat (one of which became the one we have now.)
Take a look at my "concurrence" beginning at page 32:
https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/final-report-alac-review-28jan09...
--karl--
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Dear All I have just checked the list and cannot find my name on it. My flight has been confirmed with my visa sent to both the Secretariat and Travel team. Would someone be kind enough to please, tell what the issue is. Thanks *Pastor Peters Osawaru OMORAGBON* *-Financial Secretary, Central Association of Nigerians in the United Kingdom-CANUK* *-Executive President/CEO-Nurses Across the Borders-An NGO in Special Consultative Status with the Economic and Social Council of the United Nations-ECOSOC* *-Designated Contact Person-United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change-UNFCCC* *-International Liaison Officer-Nigerian Nurses Charitable Association-NNCA-UK* *-Board Member-Conference of NGOS in Special Consultative Status with the United Nations-CONGO* *-Member Steering Committee Regional Committee for Africa-CONGO* *-General Secretary, Civil Society Network of NGOs on Climate Change* *-Fellow Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers-ICANN* *-Fellow Open Society Institute-Budapest* On Sun, 13 Oct 2019 at 12:01, Shreedeep Rayamajhi <weaker41@gmail.com> wrote:
Please check this link
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VjDNprfL8jmHM92sC2sD5oahOuqy3qJaQHDl...
On Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 8:42 PM Carlos Raul Gutierrez < carlosraul@gutierrez.se> wrote:
Die we have a number of people who did not get a visa, and how many are still waiting for one? It is difficult to think about the issue without knowing the dimension.
Thanks! Carlos Raúl Gutiérrez
El 12 oct. 2019 02:33, Narine Khachatryan < ms.narine.khachatryan@gmail.com> escribió:
Dear all,
As a number of community members experienced problems with visa applications, shouldn't be rational to find a solution for those who couldn't get visas to attend ATLASIII.
The ATLASIII scholarship can be extended to the next/other ICANN meeting, for instance. Perhaps, other solutions can be discussed, as well.
Thank you and regards,
Narine
On Thu, 1 Aug 2019, 22:25 Karl Auerbach, <karl@cavebear.com> wrote:
On 8/1/19 2:09 AM, Wolfgang Kleinwächter wrote:
I was involved in the Mexico Summit (inter alia by creating the acronym :-))) ). In my opinion the Mexcio summit did have an impact. We worked on short "Resolutions" which were handed over to the Board. One resolution was on At Large representation in the ICANN Board. We were calling for two voting seats in the Board. We did not get the two voting seats
It is worth remembering that when ICANN was still "NewCo" that a promise was made that the Board of Directors would be dominated by a majority of seats chosen by the public. So asking for two seats is asking for a crust of stale bread when we were promised a feast.
I do remember the horrific pushback we got when our 2009 board "At Large Advisory Committee" suggested any public seat (one of which became the one we have now.)
Take a look at my "concurrence" beginning at page 32:
https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/final-report-alac-review-28jan09...
--karl--
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Hi Staff I had earlier sent note that I was not granted visa and had reapplied, same with our Executive Director, Nkem, but we none is lised the spreadsheet. I am sure she did send her reapplication too. ____ REMMY NWEKE, mNGE, Lead Consulting Strategist/Group Executive Editor, DigitalSENSE Africa Media [*Multiple-award winning medium*] (DigitalSENSE Business News <http://www.digitalsenseafrica.com.ng/businessnews>; ITREALMS <http://www.itrealms.com.ng>, NaijaAgroNet <http://www.naijaagronet.com.ng>) Block F1, Shop 133 Moyosore Aboderin Plaza, Bolade Junction, Oshodi-Lagos M: 234-8033592762, 8023122558, 8051000475, T: @ITRealms <http://www.twitter.com/ITRealms> Author: A Decade of ICT Reportage in Nigeria <https://www.facebook.com/adecadeofictreportageinnigeria%E2%80%8E> *2020 Nigeria DigitalSENSE Forum on IG4D & Nigeria IPv6 Roundtable <http://www.digitalsenseafrica.com.ng>* JOIN us!! *Vice President, African Civil Society on the Information Society (ACSIS <http://www.acsis-scasi.org/en/>) _________________________________________________________________ *Confidentiality Notice:* The information in this document and attachments are confidential and may also be privileged information. It is intended only for the use of the named recipient. Remmy Nweke does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this e-mail. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify me immediately, then delete this document and do not disclose the contents of this document to any other person, nor make any copies. Violators may face court persecution. On Sun, Oct 13, 2019 at 12:01 PM Shreedeep Rayamajhi <weaker41@gmail.com> wrote:
Please check this link
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VjDNprfL8jmHM92sC2sD5oahOuqy3qJaQHDl...
On Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 8:42 PM Carlos Raul Gutierrez < carlosraul@gutierrez.se> wrote:
Die we have a number of people who did not get a visa, and how many are still waiting for one? It is difficult to think about the issue without knowing the dimension.
Thanks! Carlos Raúl Gutiérrez
El 12 oct. 2019 02:33, Narine Khachatryan < ms.narine.khachatryan@gmail.com> escribió:
Dear all,
As a number of community members experienced problems with visa applications, shouldn't be rational to find a solution for those who couldn't get visas to attend ATLASIII.
The ATLASIII scholarship can be extended to the next/other ICANN meeting, for instance. Perhaps, other solutions can be discussed, as well.
Thank you and regards,
Narine
On Thu, 1 Aug 2019, 22:25 Karl Auerbach, <karl@cavebear.com> wrote:
On 8/1/19 2:09 AM, Wolfgang Kleinwächter wrote:
I was involved in the Mexico Summit (inter alia by creating the acronym :-))) ). In my opinion the Mexcio summit did have an impact. We worked on short "Resolutions" which were handed over to the Board. One resolution was on At Large representation in the ICANN Board. We were calling for two voting seats in the Board. We did not get the two voting seats
It is worth remembering that when ICANN was still "NewCo" that a promise was made that the Board of Directors would be dominated by a majority of seats chosen by the public. So asking for two seats is asking for a crust of stale bread when we were promised a feast.
I do remember the horrific pushback we got when our 2009 board "At Large Advisory Committee" suggested any public seat (one of which became the one we have now.)
Take a look at my "concurrence" beginning at page 32:
https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/final-report-alac-review-28jan09...
--karl--
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I am also aware of Songitu and Venatius rejections and reapplications. Kindly note. ____ REMMY NWEKE, mNGE, Lead Consulting Strategist/Group Executive Editor, DigitalSENSE Africa Media [*Multiple-award winning medium*] (DigitalSENSE Business News <http://www.digitalsenseafrica.com.ng/businessnews>; ITREALMS <http://www.itrealms.com.ng>, NaijaAgroNet <http://www.naijaagronet.com.ng>) Block F1, Shop 133 Moyosore Aboderin Plaza, Bolade Junction, Oshodi-Lagos M: 234-8033592762, 8023122558, 8051000475, T: @ITRealms <http://www.twitter.com/ITRealms> Author: A Decade of ICT Reportage in Nigeria <https://www.facebook.com/adecadeofictreportageinnigeria%E2%80%8E> *2020 Nigeria DigitalSENSE Forum on IG4D & Nigeria IPv6 Roundtable <http://www.digitalsenseafrica.com.ng>* JOIN us!! *Vice President, African Civil Society on the Information Society (ACSIS <http://www.acsis-scasi.org/en/>) _________________________________________________________________ *Confidentiality Notice:* The information in this document and attachments are confidential and may also be privileged information. It is intended only for the use of the named recipient. Remmy Nweke does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this e-mail. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify me immediately, then delete this document and do not disclose the contents of this document to any other person, nor make any copies. Violators may face court persecution. On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 1:29 AM Remmy Nweke <remmyn@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Staff I had earlier sent note that I was not granted visa and had reapplied, same with our Executive Director, Nkem, but we none is lised the spreadsheet. I am sure she did send her reapplication too. ____ REMMY NWEKE, mNGE, Lead Consulting Strategist/Group Executive Editor, DigitalSENSE Africa Media [*Multiple-award winning medium*] (DigitalSENSE Business News <http://www.digitalsenseafrica.com.ng/businessnews>; ITREALMS <http://www.itrealms.com.ng>, NaijaAgroNet <http://www.naijaagronet.com.ng>) Block F1, Shop 133 Moyosore Aboderin Plaza, Bolade Junction, Oshodi-Lagos M: 234-8033592762, 8023122558, 8051000475, T: @ITRealms <http://www.twitter.com/ITRealms> Author: A Decade of ICT Reportage in Nigeria <https://www.facebook.com/adecadeofictreportageinnigeria%E2%80%8E>
*2020 Nigeria DigitalSENSE Forum on IG4D & Nigeria IPv6 Roundtable <http://www.digitalsenseafrica.com.ng>* JOIN us!!
*Vice President, African Civil Society on the Information Society (ACSIS <http://www.acsis-scasi.org/en/>) _________________________________________________________________ *Confidentiality Notice:* The information in this document and attachments are confidential and may also be privileged information. It is intended only for the use of the named recipient. Remmy Nweke does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this e-mail. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify me immediately, then delete this document and do not disclose the contents of this document to any other person, nor make any copies. Violators may face court persecution.
On Sun, Oct 13, 2019 at 12:01 PM Shreedeep Rayamajhi <weaker41@gmail.com> wrote:
Please check this link
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VjDNprfL8jmHM92sC2sD5oahOuqy3qJaQHDl...
On Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 8:42 PM Carlos Raul Gutierrez < carlosraul@gutierrez.se> wrote:
Die we have a number of people who did not get a visa, and how many are still waiting for one? It is difficult to think about the issue without knowing the dimension.
Thanks! Carlos Raúl Gutiérrez
El 12 oct. 2019 02:33, Narine Khachatryan < ms.narine.khachatryan@gmail.com> escribió:
Dear all,
As a number of community members experienced problems with visa applications, shouldn't be rational to find a solution for those who couldn't get visas to attend ATLASIII.
The ATLASIII scholarship can be extended to the next/other ICANN meeting, for instance. Perhaps, other solutions can be discussed, as well.
Thank you and regards,
Narine
On Thu, 1 Aug 2019, 22:25 Karl Auerbach, <karl@cavebear.com> wrote:
On 8/1/19 2:09 AM, Wolfgang Kleinwächter wrote:
I was involved in the Mexico Summit (inter alia by creating the acronym :-))) ). In my opinion the Mexcio summit did have an impact. We worked on short "Resolutions" which were handed over to the Board. One resolution was on At Large representation in the ICANN Board. We were calling for two voting seats in the Board. We did not get the two voting seats
It is worth remembering that when ICANN was still "NewCo" that a promise was made that the Board of Directors would be dominated by a majority of seats chosen by the public. So asking for two seats is asking for a crust of stale bread when we were promised a feast.
I do remember the horrific pushback we got when our 2009 board "At Large Advisory Committee" suggested any public seat (one of which became the one we have now.)
Take a look at my "concurrence" beginning at page 32:
https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/final-report-alac-review-28jan09...
--karl--
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At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
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At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Dear Remmy, This is not the list of the ATLAS III. It the list of NASIG, So please do not worry about it. Regards, Shreedeep On Tue, Oct 15, 2019, 6:15 AM Remmy Nweke <remmyn@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Staff I had earlier sent note that I was not granted visa and had reapplied, same with our Executive Director, Nkem, but we none is lised the spreadsheet. I am sure she did send her reapplication too. ____ REMMY NWEKE, mNGE, Lead Consulting Strategist/Group Executive Editor, DigitalSENSE Africa Media [*Multiple-award winning medium*] (DigitalSENSE Business News <http://www.digitalsenseafrica.com.ng/businessnews>; ITREALMS <http://www.itrealms.com.ng>, NaijaAgroNet <http://www.naijaagronet.com.ng>) Block F1, Shop 133 Moyosore Aboderin Plaza, Bolade Junction, Oshodi-Lagos M: 234-8033592762, 8023122558, 8051000475, T: @ITRealms <http://www.twitter.com/ITRealms> Author: A Decade of ICT Reportage in Nigeria <https://www.facebook.com/adecadeofictreportageinnigeria%E2%80%8E>
*2020 Nigeria DigitalSENSE Forum on IG4D & Nigeria IPv6 Roundtable <http://www.digitalsenseafrica.com.ng>* JOIN us!!
*Vice President, African Civil Society on the Information Society (ACSIS <http://www.acsis-scasi.org/en/>) _________________________________________________________________ *Confidentiality Notice:* The information in this document and attachments are confidential and may also be privileged information. It is intended only for the use of the named recipient. Remmy Nweke does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this e-mail. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify me immediately, then delete this document and do not disclose the contents of this document to any other person, nor make any copies. Violators may face court persecution.
On Sun, Oct 13, 2019 at 12:01 PM Shreedeep Rayamajhi <weaker41@gmail.com> wrote:
Please check this link
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VjDNprfL8jmHM92sC2sD5oahOuqy3qJaQHDl...
On Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 8:42 PM Carlos Raul Gutierrez < carlosraul@gutierrez.se> wrote:
Die we have a number of people who did not get a visa, and how many are still waiting for one? It is difficult to think about the issue without knowing the dimension.
Thanks! Carlos Raúl Gutiérrez
El 12 oct. 2019 02:33, Narine Khachatryan < ms.narine.khachatryan@gmail.com> escribió:
Dear all,
As a number of community members experienced problems with visa applications, shouldn't be rational to find a solution for those who couldn't get visas to attend ATLASIII.
The ATLASIII scholarship can be extended to the next/other ICANN meeting, for instance. Perhaps, other solutions can be discussed, as well.
Thank you and regards,
Narine
On Thu, 1 Aug 2019, 22:25 Karl Auerbach, <karl@cavebear.com> wrote:
On 8/1/19 2:09 AM, Wolfgang Kleinwächter wrote:
I was involved in the Mexico Summit (inter alia by creating the acronym :-))) ). In my opinion the Mexcio summit did have an impact. We worked on short "Resolutions" which were handed over to the Board. One resolution was on At Large representation in the ICANN Board. We were calling for two voting seats in the Board. We did not get the two voting seats
It is worth remembering that when ICANN was still "NewCo" that a promise was made that the Board of Directors would be dominated by a majority of seats chosen by the public. So asking for two seats is asking for a crust of stale bread when we were promised a feast.
I do remember the horrific pushback we got when our 2009 board "At Large Advisory Committee" suggested any public seat (one of which became the one we have now.)
Take a look at my "concurrence" beginning at page 32:
https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/final-report-alac-review-28jan09...
--karl--
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Dear Remmy, The spreadsheet is for those attending the North American School of Internet Governance and not ATLASIII perse. However, Shreedeep is suggesting that all ATLASIII participants should have some sort of spreadsheet, to enable tracking and possible extensions of scholarships to next ICANN meetings, in case someone doesn't get a visa for ICANN66. My concern is, shall the ALTASIII training reoccur in the next ICANN meeting (eg. ICANN67) ? Thank you Sonigitu Ekpe Environmental Governance Consultant +234 803 399 2350 On Tue, 15 Oct 2019, 01:30 Remmy Nweke, <remmyn@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Staff I had earlier sent note that I was not granted visa and had reapplied, same with our Executive Director, Nkem, but we none is lised the spreadsheet. I am sure she did send her reapplication too. ____ REMMY NWEKE, mNGE, Lead Consulting Strategist/Group Executive Editor, DigitalSENSE Africa Media [*Multiple-award winning medium*] (DigitalSENSE Business News <http://www.digitalsenseafrica.com.ng/businessnews>; ITREALMS <http://www.itrealms.com.ng>, NaijaAgroNet <http://www.naijaagronet.com.ng>) Block F1, Shop 133 Moyosore Aboderin Plaza, Bolade Junction, Oshodi-Lagos M: 234-8033592762, 8023122558, 8051000475, T: @ITRealms <http://www.twitter.com/ITRealms> Author: A Decade of ICT Reportage in Nigeria <https://www.facebook.com/adecadeofictreportageinnigeria%E2%80%8E>
*2020 Nigeria DigitalSENSE Forum on IG4D & Nigeria IPv6 Roundtable <http://www.digitalsenseafrica.com.ng>* JOIN us!!
*Vice President, African Civil Society on the Information Society (ACSIS <http://www.acsis-scasi.org/en/>) _________________________________________________________________ *Confidentiality Notice:* The information in this document and attachments are confidential and may also be privileged information. It is intended only for the use of the named recipient. Remmy Nweke does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this e-mail. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify me immediately, then delete this document and do not disclose the contents of this document to any other person, nor make any copies. Violators may face court persecution.
On Sun, Oct 13, 2019 at 12:01 PM Shreedeep Rayamajhi <weaker41@gmail.com> wrote:
Please check this link
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VjDNprfL8jmHM92sC2sD5oahOuqy3qJaQHDl...
On Sat, Oct 12, 2019, 8:42 PM Carlos Raul Gutierrez < carlosraul@gutierrez.se> wrote:
Die we have a number of people who did not get a visa, and how many are still waiting for one? It is difficult to think about the issue without knowing the dimension.
Thanks! Carlos Raúl Gutiérrez
El 12 oct. 2019 02:33, Narine Khachatryan < ms.narine.khachatryan@gmail.com> escribió:
Dear all,
As a number of community members experienced problems with visa applications, shouldn't be rational to find a solution for those who couldn't get visas to attend ATLASIII.
The ATLASIII scholarship can be extended to the next/other ICANN meeting, for instance. Perhaps, other solutions can be discussed, as well.
Thank you and regards,
Narine
On Thu, 1 Aug 2019, 22:25 Karl Auerbach, <karl@cavebear.com> wrote:
On 8/1/19 2:09 AM, Wolfgang Kleinwächter wrote:
I was involved in the Mexico Summit (inter alia by creating the acronym :-))) ). In my opinion the Mexcio summit did have an impact. We worked on short "Resolutions" which were handed over to the Board. One resolution was on At Large representation in the ICANN Board. We were calling for two voting seats in the Board. We did not get the two voting seats
It is worth remembering that when ICANN was still "NewCo" that a promise was made that the Board of Directors would be dominated by a majority of seats chosen by the public. So asking for two seats is asking for a crust of stale bread when we were promised a feast.
I do remember the horrific pushback we got when our 2009 board "At Large Advisory Committee" suggested any public seat (one of which became the one we have now.)
Take a look at my "concurrence" beginning at page 32:
https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/final-report-alac-review-28jan09...
--karl--
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
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At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
On Thu, Aug 1, 2019, 2:40 PM Wolfgang Kleinwächter < wolfgang@kleinwaechter.info> wrote:
Hi,
let me join the discussion. ATLAS can have an impact. It is indeed an opportunity, but the poutcome has to be very carefully designed (and realistic).
I was involved in the Mexico Summit (inter alia by creating the acronym :-))) ). In my opinion the Mexcio summit did have an impact. We worked on short "Resolutions" which were handed over to the Board. One resolution was on At Large representation in the ICANN Board. We were calling for two voting seats in the Board. We did not get the two voting seats, but as a result of the Mexico ATLAS resolution the non-voting At Large liaison in the board was upgraded into one voting seat for At Large in the Board (picked by At Large itself). Since that Sebastian, Rinalia and now Leon have voting rights. All other ACs have only non-voting liaisons.Before Mexico there was also a discussion to change the At-Large AC into an At-Large SO. This make no sense anymore. But to ask for a second voting seat (to have the same the representation like an SO in the Board) could make sense. This could contribute to more diversity.
My proposal for Montreal is to define three or four very concrete issues and to work on language for short resolutions.
I am not sure if I have understood it well, but the signals we receive seem to (mis)lead me to think that there is an (un)intentional flaw in the design of ATLAS 3. It is possible that ATLAS 3 is about to make a point that At Large is lesser than other ACs/SOs. ATLAS III appears more focused on educating the participants than expecting the participants to contribute to policy. An 'Important NOTICE: to the Atlas III participants' says "The program has been designed carefully to develop your knowledge. Attending all ATLAS III sessions is crucial in order for you to gain the knowledge and skills needed to work on behalf of the At-Large Community following ATLAS III." Following, not during. In Mexico there was a separation of ATLAS from mainstream ICANN, but in the nature of an early start which somewhat converged into main ICANN sessions from Monday. During London At Large was a little more equal somehow, but I am not sure if we are careful about our stature during and after Montreal. Sivasubramanian M P. S. Carlton made his excellent observations during ATLAS II. Is there even an acknowledgement of his notions of the value of volunteer time dwarfing the cost of necessary, basic arrangements such as travel and a bed to sleep? This could include issues discussed under PDPs or WS2, but also more
general issues as cyberstability, DNS market development or human rights
Two cents
Wolfgang
Vanda Scartezini <vanda@etges.com.br> hat am 31. Juli 2019 um 22:07 geschrieben:
Maureen, agree with your points. However it is not my opinion that Mexico or London Summit can be perceived as no impact. Anytime we shall analyze anything with the perspective of the occasion in time. Like in History anyone can criticize any AC/SOs and their constituencies about the poor work done if we look to the past with the experiences and demands of the present.
Mexico was an quite interesting experience to have all ALS from around the world experiment work together with their different cultural behavior, views of the world and ICAnn etc..
London experience was richer with policy discussion going deeply discussed.
Certainly reducing the number of participants is positive to achieve a more focus content and results.
ALAC is the only group embracing the whole world and sometimes is difficult for anyone with a more focused approach to understand its impact. What is quite important is the touched community has appropriated ALAC spread of knowledge and improved the participation after both summits.
Thanks all for sharing different views, we can always enrich the process.
*Vanda Scartezini*
*Polo Consultores Associados*
*Av. Paulista 1159, cj 1004*
*01311-200- Sao Paulo, SP, Brazil*
*Land Line: +55 11 3266.6253*
*Mobile: + 55 11 98181.1464 *
*Sorry for any typos. *
*From: *At-Large <at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> on behalf of Maureen Hilyard <maureen.hilyard@gmail.com> *Date: *Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 21:09 *To: *"karl@cavebear.com" <karl@cavebear.com> *Cc: *'At-Large Worldwide' <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> *Subject: *Re: [At-Large] Fwd: ATLASIII Participation
Karl, I am very grateful that you can see what the ALAC is trying to do with regards to ATLASIII - developing a roadmap for the future.
I cannot imagine that ALAC and At-Large is going to miraculously change overnight when it has been perceived that we made no positive impacts from our previous Summits. However, this time I believe that we are truly attempting to offer an event where participants can get a better understanding not only of why it is important we take the end-users perspective to all discussions that take place in ICANN, but also why it is important that we all share common messages to minimise the confusion that people have about At-Large. This is being supported already by the weekly CPWG meetings and members of this WG who are already committed to this model.
I am thankful that the Board made the decision to reduce the ATLAS funding, and made us change the way we view Summits and what should aim to achieve. This has made us also look not only at what we should do, but also how we should go about doing it.
Evan is correct, we are not providing a SUMMIT in the traditional sense. This was something that had to change with the reduced funding and thus the reduced number for whom we could offer travel sponsorship. We have retained the name ATLAS this time because it is still a gathering of At-Large members.
However, the reductions forced us to deal with challenges, especially with regards to our selection process and the programme. One of the positives that has come out of this is that the ideas for the development of both emerged from discussions with our ATLAS volunteers. The selection process came about through some robust discussion by the members which was endorsed by the five representatives of the ALAC Leadership Team. Even though there are still the inevitable complaints about inequities, the majority of those who were selected, are looking at this as an opportunity to learn more about At-Large and to work on its behalf in the future. This is a primary goal for this ATLAS - the work for these participants will not end with ATLAS in Montreal. There is an expectation of continued engagement even after ATLAS - in their regions, in At-Large and in ICANN. This is where we see that ICANN will get value out of this event.
Because this is a new experience for us, we are still finding our way, but I thank the Staff and the Selection Committee for the hard work they contributed to the selection of those ATLAS participants that ICANN will sponsor for the ATLAS. The ATLAS programme will be more than "just capacity building". The five pre-application modules were to ensure that there was at least a benchmark that had been achieved by all. And while they were basic for many of our experienced members, it was important that everyone was at least starting on the same page, albeit at different levels.
The proposed ATLAS programme will require this knowledge as the groups become involved in the main activity which I believe will help them not only learn more about how At-Large thinking fits into that of the rest of ICANN but also what all the discussions mean to us as end-users. This is the gap of learning we want to close for those newer members of the ATLAS group, supported by our more experienced participants. There is no way you could offer the same level of learning on a webinar and you wouldn’t be able to encourage as much individual participation as will be possible at this event.
Our greatest numbers of participants are justifiably coming from our underdeveloped regions. Evan's complaints that there are few NARALO members in the ATLAS, yet they are the best served of all the regions with regards to ongoing capacity building and updating on latest issues - check out the Community Skype chat just about every week. I thank NARALO members for opening up the opportunity for other less advantaged At-Large members to attend.
I am looking forward not only to what we will achieve at our ATLAS but the new thinking we can inject into our RALOs and our regions and the work that these selected participants will contribute to our At-Large of the future.
My 2c
Maureen
On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 7:24 AM Karl Auerbach <karl@cavebear.com> wrote:
I agree with your dim assessment in many ways, but not all.
There is something that the ALAC can do, and relatively easily.
The issue of naming is beginning to move beyond the domain name system - there will be (and are) issues of naming of "topics" for IoT networking; there are issues in cloud computing of entities as they split, move, and merge; etc.
Now on one hand there is a lot of technological issues in there - which are better left to the IETF and similar groups.
On the other hand there are major non-technical lessons to be learned from ICANN of what ought to be done in the world of governance including issues of whether-or-not-to-govern, what-to-do, what-not-to-do, ownership information access (the whois issue again), etc.
The ALAC of all the bodies in ICANN, is in the best position to step back and give an unbiased (at least, commercially unbiased) assessment and roadmap for that future.
--karl--
On 7/13/19 2:46 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote:
As ICANN enters a period of austerity while it panics its way to re-opening the gTLD floodgates, ALAC is at a crossroads. Ridiculed wherever it is not written off for its navel-gazing and complete ineffectiveness at bringing forth any useful input unique to end users, ALAC struggles for legitimacy whether it knows it or not. No wonder ATLAS 3 was so poorly funded; ICANN suspects that nothing useful (for its purposes) will come out of the current direction of yet more process and more capacity building. They think it's a waste of money so they give the minimum they can get away with. Who can blame them?
ALAC had the chance to prove them wrong this time and to do something different, to take the time necessary to have the mortally necessary debate within ALAC of how it can be relevant to ICANN and revisit how to serve its bylaw-stated mission. It needed to counter the awful external ALAC review with a thoughtful internal one.
But no.
Based on the published objectives of ATLAS 3 <https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/71605234/ATLASIII%20Overvie...>, we are in for more of the same:
· Leadership Development: another way to say "capacity building", training that could be easily be done by webinars and/or the same CBT used to deliver "what is ICANN" that would be accessible by anyone, not just the 60 attendees
· Programming: what are the tasks? "Define and structure", "Develop meeting processes". And the outcomes of programming? Reports, video interviews, and "fully functional next generation leaders".
IOW, continued navel gazing that seems to be focused most on the succession plans of existing leadership. Policy doesn't even get lip service, the word isn't mentioned once.
Nothing in the objectives points to how ALAC can actually work better to understand what end users need from ICANN and then to communicate those needs to the greater community. So why not stop calling it a Summit and call it what it is -- Leadership training? Probably because, presented that way, it wouldn't have been funded. Let's just say it's unlikely there will be an ATLAS 4 once ICANN sees how its money was spent this time.
- Evan
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I'm going to be the skunk at this party, if only because I'm tetchy on ingrates and it's irritating me to distraction. Plus, I'm sensing a devaluation of the no-sleep-allnighter work Lance, Evan, Dev, myself and a few others did writing up this bleeding thing! London was not a kumbaya singalong, no sirs! We, the denizens of the At-Large, did engage on some of the 'big issues'. Some of us argued, took positions, took notes and developed outputs reflecting what occurred. See an example attached. Then some of us slaved putting recommendations and observations together for the ICANN Board; the final communique. That is also attached. Read it! And you will find, wonders never cease, that we did not all go to London for a look at the Tower of London or visited with Missis Queen down at the Big House! I'm sure I have the Mexico City (ATLAS I) communique on a storage device somewhere. We all didn't go there waiting to be touched. Some of us did some work. When I find it I shall put it up too. Irritatedly, Carlton ============================== *Carlton A Samuels* *Mobile: 876-818-1799Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* ============================= On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 7:59 AM sivasubramanian muthusamy < 6.internet@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Aug 1, 2019, 2:40 PM Wolfgang Kleinwächter < wolfgang@kleinwaechter.info> wrote:
Hi,
let me join the discussion. ATLAS can have an impact. It is indeed an opportunity, but the poutcome has to be very carefully designed (and realistic).
I was involved in the Mexico Summit (inter alia by creating the acronym :-))) ). In my opinion the Mexcio summit did have an impact. We worked on short "Resolutions" which were handed over to the Board. One resolution was on At Large representation in the ICANN Board. We were calling for two voting seats in the Board. We did not get the two voting seats, but as a result of the Mexico ATLAS resolution the non-voting At Large liaison in the board was upgraded into one voting seat for At Large in the Board (picked by At Large itself). Since that Sebastian, Rinalia and now Leon have voting rights. All other ACs have only non-voting liaisons.Before Mexico there was also a discussion to change the At-Large AC into an At-Large SO. This make no sense anymore. But to ask for a second voting seat (to have the same the representation like an SO in the Board) could make sense. This could contribute to more diversity.
My proposal for Montreal is to define three or four very concrete issues and to work on language for short resolutions.
I am not sure if I have understood it well, but the signals we receive seem to (mis)lead me to think that there is an (un)intentional flaw in the design of ATLAS 3. It is possible that ATLAS 3 is about to make a point that At Large is lesser than other ACs/SOs. ATLAS III appears more focused on educating the participants than expecting the participants to contribute to policy. An 'Important NOTICE: to the Atlas III participants' says "The program has been designed carefully to develop your knowledge. Attending all ATLAS III sessions is crucial in order for you to gain the knowledge and skills needed to work on behalf of the At-Large Community following ATLAS III." Following, not during.
In Mexico there was a separation of ATLAS from mainstream ICANN, but in the nature of an early start which somewhat converged into main ICANN sessions from Monday. During London At Large was a little more equal somehow, but I am not sure if we are careful about our stature during and after Montreal.
Sivasubramanian M
P. S. Carlton made his excellent observations during ATLAS II. Is there even an acknowledgement of his notions of the value of volunteer time dwarfing the cost of necessary, basic arrangements such as travel and a bed to sleep?
This could include issues discussed under PDPs or WS2, but also more
general issues as cyberstability, DNS market development or human rights
Two cents
Wolfgang
Vanda Scartezini <vanda@etges.com.br> hat am 31. Juli 2019 um 22:07 geschrieben:
Maureen, agree with your points. However it is not my opinion that Mexico or London Summit can be perceived as no impact. Anytime we shall analyze anything with the perspective of the occasion in time. Like in History anyone can criticize any AC/SOs and their constituencies about the poor work done if we look to the past with the experiences and demands of the present.
Mexico was an quite interesting experience to have all ALS from around the world experiment work together with their different cultural behavior, views of the world and ICAnn etc..
London experience was richer with policy discussion going deeply discussed.
Certainly reducing the number of participants is positive to achieve a more focus content and results.
ALAC is the only group embracing the whole world and sometimes is difficult for anyone with a more focused approach to understand its impact. What is quite important is the touched community has appropriated ALAC spread of knowledge and improved the participation after both summits.
Thanks all for sharing different views, we can always enrich the process.
*Vanda Scartezini*
*Polo Consultores Associados*
*Av. Paulista 1159, cj 1004*
*01311-200- Sao Paulo, SP, Brazil*
*Land Line: +55 11 3266.6253*
*Mobile: + 55 11 98181.1464 *
*Sorry for any typos. *
*From: *At-Large <at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> on behalf of Maureen Hilyard <maureen.hilyard@gmail.com> *Date: *Saturday, July 13, 2019 at 21:09 *To: *"karl@cavebear.com" <karl@cavebear.com> *Cc: *'At-Large Worldwide' <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> *Subject: *Re: [At-Large] Fwd: ATLASIII Participation
Karl, I am very grateful that you can see what the ALAC is trying to do with regards to ATLASIII - developing a roadmap for the future.
I cannot imagine that ALAC and At-Large is going to miraculously change overnight when it has been perceived that we made no positive impacts from our previous Summits. However, this time I believe that we are truly attempting to offer an event where participants can get a better understanding not only of why it is important we take the end-users perspective to all discussions that take place in ICANN, but also why it is important that we all share common messages to minimise the confusion that people have about At-Large. This is being supported already by the weekly CPWG meetings and members of this WG who are already committed to this model.
I am thankful that the Board made the decision to reduce the ATLAS funding, and made us change the way we view Summits and what should aim to achieve. This has made us also look not only at what we should do, but also how we should go about doing it.
Evan is correct, we are not providing a SUMMIT in the traditional sense. This was something that had to change with the reduced funding and thus the reduced number for whom we could offer travel sponsorship. We have retained the name ATLAS this time because it is still a gathering of At-Large members.
However, the reductions forced us to deal with challenges, especially with regards to our selection process and the programme. One of the positives that has come out of this is that the ideas for the development of both emerged from discussions with our ATLAS volunteers. The selection process came about through some robust discussion by the members which was endorsed by the five representatives of the ALAC Leadership Team. Even though there are still the inevitable complaints about inequities, the majority of those who were selected, are looking at this as an opportunity to learn more about At-Large and to work on its behalf in the future. This is a primary goal for this ATLAS - the work for these participants will not end with ATLAS in Montreal. There is an expectation of continued engagement even after ATLAS - in their regions, in At-Large and in ICANN. This is where we see that ICANN will get value out of this event.
Because this is a new experience for us, we are still finding our way, but I thank the Staff and the Selection Committee for the hard work they contributed to the selection of those ATLAS participants that ICANN will sponsor for the ATLAS. The ATLAS programme will be more than "just capacity building". The five pre-application modules were to ensure that there was at least a benchmark that had been achieved by all. And while they were basic for many of our experienced members, it was important that everyone was at least starting on the same page, albeit at different levels.
The proposed ATLAS programme will require this knowledge as the groups become involved in the main activity which I believe will help them not only learn more about how At-Large thinking fits into that of the rest of ICANN but also what all the discussions mean to us as end-users. This is the gap of learning we want to close for those newer members of the ATLAS group, supported by our more experienced participants. There is no way you could offer the same level of learning on a webinar and you wouldn’t be able to encourage as much individual participation as will be possible at this event.
Our greatest numbers of participants are justifiably coming from our underdeveloped regions. Evan's complaints that there are few NARALO members in the ATLAS, yet they are the best served of all the regions with regards to ongoing capacity building and updating on latest issues - check out the Community Skype chat just about every week. I thank NARALO members for opening up the opportunity for other less advantaged At-Large members to attend.
I am looking forward not only to what we will achieve at our ATLAS but the new thinking we can inject into our RALOs and our regions and the work that these selected participants will contribute to our At-Large of the future.
My 2c
Maureen
On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 7:24 AM Karl Auerbach <karl@cavebear.com> wrote:
I agree with your dim assessment in many ways, but not all.
There is something that the ALAC can do, and relatively easily.
The issue of naming is beginning to move beyond the domain name system - there will be (and are) issues of naming of "topics" for IoT networking; there are issues in cloud computing of entities as they split, move, and merge; etc.
Now on one hand there is a lot of technological issues in there - which are better left to the IETF and similar groups.
On the other hand there are major non-technical lessons to be learned from ICANN of what ought to be done in the world of governance including issues of whether-or-not-to-govern, what-to-do, what-not-to-do, ownership information access (the whois issue again), etc.
The ALAC of all the bodies in ICANN, is in the best position to step back and give an unbiased (at least, commercially unbiased) assessment and roadmap for that future.
--karl--
On 7/13/19 2:46 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote:
As ICANN enters a period of austerity while it panics its way to re-opening the gTLD floodgates, ALAC is at a crossroads. Ridiculed wherever it is not written off for its navel-gazing and complete ineffectiveness at bringing forth any useful input unique to end users, ALAC struggles for legitimacy whether it knows it or not. No wonder ATLAS 3 was so poorly funded; ICANN suspects that nothing useful (for its purposes) will come out of the current direction of yet more process and more capacity building. They think it's a waste of money so they give the minimum they can get away with. Who can blame them?
ALAC had the chance to prove them wrong this time and to do something different, to take the time necessary to have the mortally necessary debate within ALAC of how it can be relevant to ICANN and revisit how to serve its bylaw-stated mission. It needed to counter the awful external ALAC review with a thoughtful internal one.
But no.
Based on the published objectives of ATLAS 3 <https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/71605234/ATLASIII%20Overvie...>, we are in for more of the same:
· Leadership Development: another way to say "capacity building", training that could be easily be done by webinars and/or the same CBT used to deliver "what is ICANN" that would be accessible by anyone, not just the 60 attendees
· Programming: what are the tasks? "Define and structure", "Develop meeting processes". And the outcomes of programming? Reports, video interviews, and "fully functional next generation leaders".
IOW, continued navel gazing that seems to be focused most on the succession plans of existing leadership. Policy doesn't even get lip service, the word isn't mentioned once.
Nothing in the objectives points to how ALAC can actually work better to understand what end users need from ICANN and then to communicate those needs to the greater community. So why not stop calling it a Summit and call it what it is -- Leadership training? Probably because, presented that way, it wouldn't have been funded. Let's just say it's unlikely there will be an ATLAS 4 once ICANN sees how its money was spent this time.
- Evan
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On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 at 18:15, Carlton Samuels <carlton.samuels@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm going to be the skunk at this party, if only because I'm tetchy on ingrates and it's irritating me to distraction. Plus, I'm sensing a devaluation of the no-sleep-allnighter work Lance, Evan, Dev, myself and a few others did writing up this bleeding thing!
Yup. Alan was well involved too. I'm sure I have the Mexico City (ATLAS I) communique on a storage device
somewhere. We all didn't go there waiting to be touched. Some of us did some work. When I find it I shall put it up too.
Wolf Ludwig and I pulled together the leaders of five working groups to produce a communique of substance and quality. He personally put it in the hands of Twomey and I did the same for Dengate-Thrush at the closing ceremony. ALAC never received a written acknowledgement of receipt, let alone appreciation for the diligence. I can imagine the interval between hand and bin could have been measured in minutes. It's not even called a communique at ICANN.org so you won't find it if you look that way. Just individual reports of the working groups <https://atlarge.icann.org/events/summit-wg-en>, never acknowledged as ALAC advice or useful feedback of any kind. There were never referenced in any subsequent ICANN activity or decision. Impact my eye. Hundreds of person-hours bypassed before our eyes. - Evan
I was there too. Till past 3 am. Drafting and reviewing. Grateful to be able to help. Kind regards León Enviado desde mi iPhone
El oct. 15, 2019, a la(s) 5:54 p. m., Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org> escribió:
On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 at 18:15, Carlton Samuels <carlton.samuels@gmail.com> wrote: I'm going to be the skunk at this party, if only because I'm tetchy on ingrates and it's irritating me to distraction. Plus, I'm sensing a devaluation of the no-sleep-allnighter work Lance, Evan, Dev, myself and a few others did writing up this bleeding thing!
Yup. Alan was well involved too.
I'm sure I have the Mexico City (ATLAS I) communique on a storage device somewhere. We all didn't go there waiting to be touched. Some of us did some work. When I find it I shall put it up too.
Wolf Ludwig and I pulled together the leaders of five working groups to produce a communique of substance and quality. He personally put it in the hands of Twomey and I did the same for Dengate-Thrush at the closing ceremony.
ALAC never received a written acknowledgement of receipt, let alone appreciation for the diligence. I can imagine the interval between hand and bin could have been measured in minutes.
It's not even called a communique at ICANN.org so you won't find it if you look that way. Just individual reports of the working groups, never acknowledged as ALAC advice or useful feedback of any kind. There were never referenced in any subsequent ICANN activity or decision.
Impact my eye. Hundreds of person-hours bypassed before our eyes.
- Evan
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On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 at 20:28, León Felipe Sánchez Ambía < leonfelipe@sanchez.mx> wrote:
I was there too. Till past 3 am. Drafting and reviewing. Grateful to be able to help.
Indeed you were. Apologies for the omission. It was a very late night drafting session for the London statement IIRC and I was barely aware that *I* was there. ;-) - Evan
You have a fuller memory of the names of the band. I was sure there were others whose names I could not recall at the minute. Memory refreshed for Alan and Leon. Carlton On Tue, 15 Oct 2019, 5:53 pm Evan Leibovitch, <evan@telly.org> wrote:
On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 at 18:15, Carlton Samuels <carlton.samuels@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm going to be the skunk at this party, if only because I'm tetchy on ingrates and it's irritating me to distraction. Plus, I'm sensing a devaluation of the no-sleep-allnighter work Lance, Evan, Dev, myself and a few others did writing up this bleeding thing!
Yup. Alan was well involved too.
I'm sure I have the Mexico City (ATLAS I) communique on a storage device
somewhere. We all didn't go there waiting to be touched. Some of us did some work. When I find it I shall put it up too.
Wolf Ludwig and I pulled together the leaders of five working groups to produce a communique of substance and quality. He personally put it in the hands of Twomey and I did the same for Dengate-Thrush at the closing ceremony.
ALAC never received a written acknowledgement of receipt, let alone appreciation for the diligence. I can imagine the interval between hand and bin could have been measured in minutes.
It's not even called a communique at ICANN.org so you won't find it if you look that way. Just individual reports of the working groups <https://atlarge.icann.org/events/summit-wg-en>, never acknowledged as ALAC advice or useful feedback of any kind. There were never referenced in any subsequent ICANN activity or decision.
Impact my eye. Hundreds of person-hours bypassed before our eyes.
- Evan
Dear All, As a follow up to this discussion, please note that both ATLAS I and ATLAS II resulted in Board resolutions congratulating the At-Large community for the successful summit as well as acknowledging the receipt of the Declarations. * ATLAS I – Board Resolution<https://features.icann.org/2009-06-26-large-summit-work>; ATLAS 1 Declaration in Statement form<https://atlarge.icann.org/advice_statements/9261> * ATLAS II – Acknowledgment of Second At-Large Summit Declaration<https://features.icann.org/acknowledgment-second-large-summit-declaration>; ATLAS II Declaration in Statement form<https://atlarge.icann.org/advice_statements/9735>; ATLAS II Recommendations Implementation Report<https://atlarge.icann.org/advice_statements/9917> In addition, the implementation of the ATLAS II Declaration included communication between the Board Chairman and the ALAC Chair on two occasions: * Letter from Steve Crocker to Alan Greenberg<https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/correspondence/crocker-to-greenberg-19...> (19 October 2016) * Letter from Cherine Chalaby to Maureen Hilyard<https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/correspondence/chalaby-to-hilyard-25se...> (25 September 2019) As we get ready for ATLAS III<https://atlarge.icann.org/events/atlas-3-en>, many thanks for all the hard work that has gone into its preparation and in its implementation. Kind regards, Heidi From: At-Large <at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> on behalf of Carlton Samuels <carlton.samuels@gmail.com> Date: Wednesday, 16 October 2019 at 5:56 AM To: Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org> Cc: At-Large Worldwide <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org>, 'Vanda Scartezini' <vanda@etges.com.br> Subject: Re: [At-Large] Fwd: ATLASIII Participation You have a fuller memory of the names of the band. I was sure there were others whose names I could not recall at the minute. Memory refreshed for Alan and Leon. Carlton On Tue, 15 Oct 2019, 5:53 pm Evan Leibovitch, <evan@telly.org<mailto:evan@telly.org>> wrote: On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 at 18:15, Carlton Samuels <carlton.samuels@gmail.com<mailto:carlton.samuels@gmail.com>> wrote: I'm going to be the skunk at this party, if only because I'm tetchy on ingrates and it's irritating me to distraction. Plus, I'm sensing a devaluation of the no-sleep-allnighter work Lance, Evan, Dev, myself and a few others did writing up this bleeding thing! Yup. Alan was well involved too. I'm sure I have the Mexico City (ATLAS I) communique on a storage device somewhere. We all didn't go there waiting to be touched. Some of us did some work. When I find it I shall put it up too. Wolf Ludwig and I pulled together the leaders of five working groups to produce a communique of substance and quality. He personally put it in the hands of Twomey and I did the same for Dengate-Thrush at the closing ceremony. ALAC never received a written acknowledgement of receipt, let alone appreciation for the diligence. I can imagine the interval between hand and bin could have been measured in minutes. It's not even called a communique at ICANN.org so you won't find it if you look that way. Just individual reports of the working groups [atlarge.icann.org]<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__atlarge.icann.org_event...>, never acknowledged as ALAC advice or useful feedback of any kind. There were never referenced in any subsequent ICANN activity or decision. Impact my eye. Hundreds of person-hours bypassed before our eyes. - Evan
On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 at 13:55, John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Evan,
Simply put, it wasn't about you.
Of course it's not about me. But it *is* emblematic of one of the causes of dysfunction I have repeatedly identified within ALAC: Focus on petty bureaucracy rather than on best use of resources in service to the bylaw-mandated task. I never said that I was surprised at the result. But thanks for helping prove my point. - Evan
No. This is not about petty bureaucracy; this is about setting transparent participation rules for a global community. Feel free to disagree about ATLASIII utility but that was a discussion that should have been had after ATLASII, not now. Sent from my Pixel 3XL John Laprise, Ph.D. On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 1:28 PM Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org> wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 at 13:55, John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Evan,
Simply put, it wasn't about you.
Of course it's not about me. But it *is* emblematic of one of the causes of dysfunction I have repeatedly identified within ALAC: Focus on petty bureaucracy rather than on best use of resources in service to the bylaw-mandated task.
I never said that I was surprised at the result. But thanks for helping prove my point.
- Evan
Transparency does not demand rigidity and enslavement to petty and arbitrary rules. My comment stands. As for utility .... The decision of what topics would be top-of-list in 2019, and the right people to participate in them, could not possibly have been predicted after ATLAS 2. Even raising this as an issue is surprising; an appeal to such rigidity of process for its own sake that further proves that ALAC is enslaved by needless process. You're right this isn't about me, I have other things to do with my volunteer time and if ALAC is not interested others are. But the fact that only two people are attending the Summit from its home region -- across the whole of the US and Canada -- ought to be an embarrassment to all who made the criteria and processes that yielded such awful results. - Evan On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 at 14:47, John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> wrote:
No. This is not about petty bureaucracy; this is about setting transparent participation rules for a global community. Feel free to disagree about ATLASIII utility but that was a discussion that should have been had after ATLASII, not now.
Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D.
On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 1:28 PM Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org> wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 at 13:55, John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Evan,
Simply put, it wasn't about you.
Of course it's not about me. But it *is* emblematic of one of the causes of dysfunction I have repeatedly identified within ALAC: Focus on petty bureaucracy rather than on best use of resources in service to the bylaw-mandated task.
I never said that I was surprised at the result. But thanks for helping prove my point.
- Evan
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
-- Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada @evanleibovitch or @el56
Sorry I misunderstood. The specific topics we're definitely an issue to be decided later. I thought you were taking issue with ATLAS as a concept. Mea culpa and please accept my apologies. Sent from my Pixel 3XL John Laprise, Ph.D. On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 2:13 PM Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org> wrote:
Transparency does not demand rigidity and enslavement to petty and arbitrary rules. My comment stands.
As for utility .... The decision of what topics would be top-of-list in 2019, and the right people to participate in them, could not possibly have been predicted after ATLAS 2. Even raising this as an issue is surprising; an appeal to such rigidity of process for its own sake that further proves that ALAC is enslaved by needless process.
You're right this isn't about me, I have other things to do with my volunteer time and if ALAC is not interested others are. But the fact that only two people are attending the Summit from its home region -- across the whole of the US and Canada -- ought to be an embarrassment to all who made the criteria and processes that yielded such awful results.
- Evan
On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 at 14:47, John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> wrote:
No. This is not about petty bureaucracy; this is about setting transparent participation rules for a global community. Feel free to disagree about ATLASIII utility but that was a discussion that should have been had after ATLASII, not now.
Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D.
On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 1:28 PM Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org> wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 at 13:55, John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Evan,
Simply put, it wasn't about you.
Of course it's not about me. But it *is* emblematic of one of the causes of dysfunction I have repeatedly identified within ALAC: Focus on petty bureaucracy rather than on best use of resources in service to the bylaw-mandated task.
I never said that I was surprised at the result. But thanks for helping prove my point.
- Evan
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
-- Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada @evanleibovitch or @el56
No worries. Indeed, your comment makes me smile recalling some early At-Large memories. The first efforts to hold a Summit started in two places... Sébastien had proposed it early on, and NARALO wanted one from its inception. I was the first Chair of NARALO and Darlene Thompson was its first Secretariat. I can still vividly recall the 4-way phone call during which Nick Ashton-Hart (Heidi's predecessor) and his boss, Denise Michel, laid down the law and instructed Darlene and me to stop pushing for this summit thing. Absolutely no way in hell it was going to happen, they told us, so we should stop wasting their time. And yet here we are. I think I can say with confidence and evidence that I have no problem with ATLAS as a concept. Cheers Evan
I have been staying out of this discussion. As Evan indicated he is one our sponsored NARALO participated to NASIG , GDPR for Citizens and if is inclined to staff for the iCANN meeting. Evan has been a major contributor to the previous ATLAS events, establishment of NARALO, co founder of ISOC Canada etc etc. I think he and other NARALO members ie. Alan Greenberg, John Laprise, Jon Zuck, Eduardo, Judith and humbly myself have a contribution, each in their own way and strengths. Evan has been a major contributor to ATLARGE and policy statements and he will be a key speaker at NASIG on the stimulating discussion on " Is ICANN Relevant" Perhaps Evan didn't do the required courses but his experience should give him give him a 'pass' G Glenn McKnight NARALO Secretariat mcknight.glenn@gmail.com http://toronto.ieee.ca/ IEEE Toronto SIGHT Chair glenn.mcknight@ieee.org skype gmcknight twitter gmcknight 289-830 6259 . On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 7:28 PM Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org> wrote:
No worries. Indeed, your comment makes me smile recalling some early At-Large memories.
The first efforts to hold a Summit started in two places... Sébastien had proposed it early on, and NARALO wanted one from its inception.
I was the first Chair of NARALO and Darlene Thompson was its first Secretariat. I can still vividly recall the 4-way phone call during which Nick Ashton-Hart (Heidi's predecessor) and his boss, Denise Michel, laid down the law and instructed Darlene and me to stop pushing for this summit thing. Absolutely no way in hell it was going to happen, they told us, so we should stop wasting their time.
And yet here we are.
I think I can say with confidence and evidence that I have no problem with ATLAS as a concept.
Cheers Evan _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
I have been watching this discussion and feeling that we are diminished when we become overly rigid. I am agreeing with Glenn that this case calls for flexibility. Evan has made major contributions to this community in the past and continues to present us with challenging positions. We need that. His experience outweighs a few on-line courses, surely. Marita On 7/11/2019 8:19 PM, Glenn McKnight wrote:
I have been staying out of this discussion. As Evan indicated he is one our sponsored NARALO participated to NASIG , GDPR for Citizens and if is inclined to staff for the iCANN meeting. Evan has been a major contributor to the previous ATLAS events, establishment of NARALO, co founder of ISOC Canada etc etc. I think he and other NARALO members ie. Alan Greenberg, John Laprise, Jon Zuck, Eduardo, Judith and humbly myself have a contribution, each in their own way and strengths. Evan has been a major contributor to ATLARGE and policy statements and he will be a key speaker at NASIG on the stimulating discussion on " Is ICANN Relevant" Perhaps Evan didn't do the required courses but his experience should give him give him a 'pass'
G Glenn McKnight NARALO Secretariat mcknight.glenn@gmail.com <mailto:mcknight.glenn@gmail.com> http://toronto.ieee.ca/ IEEE Toronto SIGHT Chair glenn.mcknight@ieee.org <mailto:glenn.mcknight@ieee.org> skype gmcknight twitter gmcknight 289-830 6259 .
On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 7:28 PM Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org <mailto:evan@telly.org>> wrote:
No worries. Indeed, your comment makes me smile recalling some early At-Large memories.
The first efforts to hold a Summit started in two places... Sébastien had proposed it early on, and NARALO wanted one from its inception.
I was the first Chair of NARALO and Darlene Thompson was its first Secretariat. I can still vividly recall the 4-way phone call during which Nick Ashton-Hart (Heidi's predecessor) and his boss, Denise Michel, laid down the law and instructed Darlene and me to stop pushing for this summit thing. Absolutely no way in hell it was going to happen, they told us, so we should stop wasting their time.
And yet here we are.
I think I can say with confidence and evidence that I have no problem with ATLAS as a concept.
Cheers Evan _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org <mailto:At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
participants (37)
-
Alan Greenberg -
Alberto Soto -
Aris Ignacio -
Barrack Otieno -
Bikram Shrestha -
Carlos Raul Gutierrez -
Carlton Samuels -
Cheryl Langdon-Orr -
Christian de Larrinaga -
Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch -
Evan Leibovitch -
Glenn McKnight -
Heidi Ullrich -
Humberto Carrasco -
Jahangir Hossain -
John Laprise -
Judith Hellerstein -
Karl Auerbach -
León Felipe Sánchez Ambía -
Marita Moll -
Matthias M. Hudobnik -
Maureen Hilyard -
Narine Khachatryan -
Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond -
Peters Omoragbon -
Remmy Nweke -
Roberto Gaetano -
Sebastien Bachollet -
Seun Ojedeji -
Shreedeep Rayamajhi -
Shreedeep Rayamajhi -
sivasubramanian muthusamy -
Sonigitu Ekpe -
Vanda Etges -
Vanda Scartezini -
Vanda Scartezini
-
Wolfgang Kleinwächter