ATLASIII Participation
I would like us all to consider consequences for ATLASIII participants who travel but do not participate (excepting reasons of illness etc). This is a serious, professional responsibility and should be treated as such. For a start, I would suggest that participants who fail to participate should be ineligible for funding and elections for 3 years. I look forward to conversation on this topic leading to action by the ALAC. Sent from my Pixel 3XL John Laprise, Ph.D.
Thanks John for the head up on this subject. For a start depending the line of programme for ATLAS III, daily attendance could be of help and when tied to the programme will be good too but must have some room for people to take a walk to energise for the next day. ____ REMMY NWEKE, mNGE, Lead Consulting Strategist/Group Executive Editor, DigitalSENSE Africa Media [*Multiple-award winning medium*] (DigitalSENSE Business News <http://www.digitalsenseafrica.com.ng/businessnews>; ITREALMS <http://www.itrealms.com.ng>, NaijaAgroNet <http://www.naijaagronet.com.ng>) Block F1, Shop 133 Moyosore Aboderin Plaza, Bolade Junction, Oshodi-Lagos M: 234-8033592762, 8023122558, 8051000475, T: @ITRealms <http://www.twitter.com/ITRealms> Author: A Decade of ICT Reportage in Nigeria <https://www.facebook.com/adecadeofictreportageinnigeria%E2%80%8E> *2020 Nigeria DigitalSENSE Forum on IG4D & Nigeria IPv6 Roundtable <http://www.digitalsenseafrica.com.ng>* JOIN us!! *Vice President, African Civil Society on the Information Society (ACSIS <http://www.acsis-scasi.org/en/>) _________________________________________________________________ *Confidentiality Notice:* The information in this document and attachments are confidential and may also be privileged information. It is intended only for the use of the named recipient. Remmy Nweke does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this e-mail. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify me immediately, then delete this document and do not disclose the contents of this document to any other person, nor make any copies. Violators may face court persecution. On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 3:16 PM John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> wrote:
I would like us all to consider consequences for ATLASIII participants who travel but do not participate (excepting reasons of illness etc). This is a serious, professional responsibility and should be treated as such.
For a start, I would suggest that participants who fail to participate should be ineligible for funding and elections for 3 years.
I look forward to conversation on this topic leading to action by the ALAC.
Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Dear John, This is a very important issue that needs to be addressed and if possible attract some legal actions. I shall be happy to contribute to the discussion. Many thanks. Sonigitu On Tue, 9 Jul 2019, 15:16 John Laprise, <jlaprise@gmail.com> wrote:
I would like us all to consider consequences for ATLASIII participants who travel but do not participate (excepting reasons of illness etc). This is a serious, professional responsibility and should be treated as such.
For a start, I would suggest that participants who fail to participate should be ineligible for funding and elections for 3 years.
I look forward to conversation on this topic leading to action by the ALAC.
Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Dear John, I am with you. I believe there is all travellers must comply with Atlas III goals. Travelling to Canada is not a vacation. However, instead of saying 3 years, I would say for any ICANN funding for 5 years or the next ATLAS meeting. If I remember well the last ATLAS meeting was 2014 (5 years ago) Regards Enviado desde mi iPhone El 09-07-2019, a la(s) 10:16, John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> escribió:
I would like us all to consider consequences for ATLASIII participants who travel but do not participate (excepting reasons of illness etc). This is a serious, professional responsibility and should be treated as such.
For a start, I would suggest that participants who fail to participate should be ineligible for funding and elections for 3 years.
I look forward to conversation on this topic leading to action by the ALAC.
Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
I agree with John. As there is no ICANN legal obligation to finance travel (except for charges), I do not think there is any legal objection. I agree with the three years, but I do not agree with the selection for the next Atlas, which we still do not know if it will take place. Regards Alberto El 9/7/19 11:53, "At-Large en nombre de Humberto Carrasco" <at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org en nombre de hcarrascob@gmail.com> escribió: Dear John, I am with you. I believe there is all travellers must comply with Atlas III goals. Travelling to Canada is not a vacation. However, instead of saying 3 years, I would say for any ICANN funding for 5 years or the next ATLAS meeting. If I remember well the last ATLAS meeting was 2014 (5 years ago)
John, I am in full agreement with you about the identification of the problem and the need to find a solution that will necessarily include sanctions for the bad behaviours. However, I think that the problem is complex, and that we need to give some deeper thought about how to solve it. I am thinking, for instance, that ICANN has a similar problem with fellowship or other programmes that provide travel support. Can we collect information about how ICANN deals with that? Also, I am under the impression that the different participants to fellowship and similar programmes have obligations to fulfil, that their presence is checked, and so on. We can start making clear that some of these measures might be applied in Montreal - it is not to “control”, but to collect data points. As of today, we do not know to which extent the problem exists - for instance, to the best of my knowledge we did not check attendance at the previous ATLAS. I have a related - but not completely - question. Now that the selection of the participants who will enjoy travel support has been made, can we remove the limitation to participation to the ATLAS III Programme Committee? Incidentally, although this topic is not fully in scope of that Committee, maybe a first reflection on the topic could be done there? Thanks, Roberto
On 09.07.2019, at 16:40, Humberto Carrasco <hcarrascob@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear John,
I am with you. I believe there is all travellers must comply with Atlas III goals. Travelling to Canada is not a vacation. However, instead of saying 3 years, I would say for any ICANN funding for 5 years or the next ATLAS meeting. If I remember well the last ATLAS meeting was 2014 (5 years ago)
Regards
Enviado desde mi iPhone
El 09-07-2019, a la(s) 10:16, John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> escribió:
I would like us all to consider consequences for ATLASIII participants who travel but do not participate (excepting reasons of illness etc). This is a serious, professional responsibility and should be treated as such.
For a start, I would suggest that participants who fail to participate should be ineligible for funding and elections for 3 years.
I look forward to conversation on this topic leading to action by the ALAC.
Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
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Regarding assistance and participation in ATLAS II, I personally know that many members of my Region, attended very little and participated less. But there were many photographs of walks in London ... Regards Alberto El 9/7/19 13:18, "At-Large en nombre de Roberto Gaetano" <at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org en nombre de roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com> escribió: John, I am in full agreement with you about the identification of the problem and the need to find a solution that will necessarily include sanctions for the bad behaviours. However, I think that the problem is complex, and that we need to give some deeper thought about how to solve it. I am thinking, for instance, that ICANN has a similar problem with fellowship or other programmes that provide travel support. Can we collect information about how ICANN deals with that? Also, I am under the impression that the different participants to fellowship and similar programmes have obligations to fulfil, that their presence is checked, and so on. We can start making clear that some of these measures might be applied in Montreal - it is not to “control”, but to collect data points. As of today, we do not know to which extent the problem exists - for instance, to the best of my knowledge we did not check attendance at the previous ATLAS. I have a related - but not completely - question. Now that the selection of the participants who will enjoy travel support has been made, can we remove the limitation to participation to the ATLAS III Programme Committee? Incidentally, although this topic is not fully in scope of that Committee, maybe a first reflection on the topic could be done there? Thanks, Roberto > On 09.07.2019, at 16:40, Humberto Carrasco <hcarrascob@gmail.com> wrote: > > Dear John, > > > I am with you. I believe there is all travellers must comply with Atlas III goals. Travelling to Canada is not a vacation. However, instead of saying 3 years, I would say for any ICANN funding for 5 years or the next ATLAS meeting. If I remember well the last ATLAS meeting was 2014 (5 years ago) > > Regards > > Enviado desde mi iPhone > > El 09-07-2019, a la(s) 10:16, John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> escribió: > >> I would like us all to consider consequences for ATLASIII participants who travel but do not participate (excepting reasons of illness etc). This is a serious, professional responsibility and should be treated as such. >> >> For a start, I would suggest that participants who fail to participate should be ineligible for funding and elections for 3 years. >> >> I look forward to conversation on this topic leading to action by the ALAC. >> >> Sent from my Pixel 3XL >> >> John Laprise, Ph.D. >> _______________________________________________ >> At-Large mailing list >> At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org >> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large >> >> At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org >> _______________________________________________ >> By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. > _______________________________________________ > At-Large mailing list > At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org > https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large > > At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org > _______________________________________________ > By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Roberto Totally agree with you that we need to verify that the problem does exist, to what degree, and also, I think, why, if it does. Data is useful in understanding the problem, and the problem needs to be understood before solutions can be conceived and implemented. Regards Jacqueline On Tue, 9 Jul 2019, 12:05 PM Roberto Gaetano, <roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com> wrote:
John, I am in full agreement with you about the identification of the problem and the need to find a solution that will necessarily include sanctions for the bad behaviours. However, I think that the problem is complex, and that we need to give some deeper thought about how to solve it. I am thinking, for instance, that ICANN has a similar problem with fellowship or other programmes that provide travel support. Can we collect information about how ICANN deals with that? Also, I am under the impression that the different participants to fellowship and similar programmes have obligations to fulfil, that their presence is checked, and so on. We can start making clear that some of these measures might be applied in Montreal - it is not to “control”, but to collect data points. As of today, we do not know to which extent the problem exists - for instance, to the best of my knowledge we did not check attendance at the previous ATLAS. I have a related - but not completely - question. Now that the selection of the participants who will enjoy travel support has been made, can we remove the limitation to participation to the ATLAS III Programme Committee? Incidentally, although this topic is not fully in scope of that Committee, maybe a first reflection on the topic could be done there? Thanks, Roberto
On 09.07.2019, at 16:40, Humberto Carrasco <hcarrascob@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear John,
I am with you. I believe there is all travellers must comply with Atlas III goals. Travelling to Canada is not a vacation. However, instead of saying 3 years, I would say for any ICANN funding for 5 years or the next ATLAS meeting. If I remember well the last ATLAS meeting was 2014 (5 years ago)
Regards
Enviado desde mi iPhone
El 09-07-2019, a la(s) 10:16, John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> escribió:
I would like us all to consider consequences for ATLASIII participants who travel but do not participate (excepting reasons of illness etc). This is a serious, professional responsibility and should be treated as such.
For a start, I would suggest that participants who fail to participate should be ineligible for funding and elections for 3 years.
I look forward to conversation on this topic leading to action by the ALAC.
Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
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+1 to Roberto while I fully understand John's concern. Let's start monitoring attendance and participation first. Fatimata On Tue, Jul 9, 2019, 16:48 Jacqueline Morris <jam@jacquelinemorris.com> wrote:
Roberto Totally agree with you that we need to verify that the problem does exist, to what degree, and also, I think, why, if it does. Data is useful in understanding the problem, and the problem needs to be understood before solutions can be conceived and implemented. Regards Jacqueline
On Tue, 9 Jul 2019, 12:05 PM Roberto Gaetano, <roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com> wrote:
John, I am in full agreement with you about the identification of the problem and the need to find a solution that will necessarily include sanctions for the bad behaviours. However, I think that the problem is complex, and that we need to give some deeper thought about how to solve it. I am thinking, for instance, that ICANN has a similar problem with fellowship or other programmes that provide travel support. Can we collect information about how ICANN deals with that? Also, I am under the impression that the different participants to fellowship and similar programmes have obligations to fulfil, that their presence is checked, and so on. We can start making clear that some of these measures might be applied in Montreal - it is not to “control”, but to collect data points. As of today, we do not know to which extent the problem exists - for instance, to the best of my knowledge we did not check attendance at the previous ATLAS. I have a related - but not completely - question. Now that the selection of the participants who will enjoy travel support has been made, can we remove the limitation to participation to the ATLAS III Programme Committee? Incidentally, although this topic is not fully in scope of that Committee, maybe a first reflection on the topic could be done there? Thanks, Roberto
On 09.07.2019, at 16:40, Humberto Carrasco <hcarrascob@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear John,
I am with you. I believe there is all travellers must comply with Atlas III goals. Travelling to Canada is not a vacation. However, instead of saying 3 years, I would say for any ICANN funding for 5 years or the next ATLAS meeting. If I remember well the last ATLAS meeting was 2014 (5 years ago)
Regards
Enviado desde mi iPhone
El 09-07-2019, a la(s) 10:16, John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> escribió:
I would like us all to consider consequences for ATLASIII participants who travel but do not participate (excepting reasons of illness etc). This is a serious, professional responsibility and should be treated as such.
For a start, I would suggest that participants who fail to participate should be ineligible for funding and elections for 3 years.
I look forward to conversation on this topic leading to action by the ALAC.
Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
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It should be completely understood by those receiving funding that they are being funded to attend ATLAS III, not to go sightseeing during the sessions. Pardon my ignorance, but is there a statement made to applicants, and/or an agreement made by applicants, that if funded they will attend all ATLAS III sessions? If the rule is not crystal clear to all funded travelers, it should be made crystal clear to all funded travelers. This is basic accountability (and self-accountability). We shouldn’t wait until Atlas IV to ensure that this very basic rule is fully understood and enforced. There’s no reason to be timid about this — unless we want to reinforce the grossly unfair (but not entirely unfounded) “travel club” reputation. We can figure out the nuances of how we know who attended (sign-in sheets, online sign-in, sign-in to Zoom or whatever application is supporting digital participation), what should be done to the travel funding privileges of those attending, and how to deal with legitimate excused absences (illness, work conflict, conflict with ICANN obligations). We will also need some flexibility to deal with someone who missed a session vs. someone who skipped out on multiple sessions, and someone who innocently missed a session (e.g., due to jet lag) vs. someone who purposefully skipped out. Until then, we should confirm to all funded travelers that they understand that they are required to attend all ATLAS III sessions, and that failure to do so will likely affect their future travel funding. If this understanding is controversial, that is problematic. Greg On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 2:24 PM Fatimata Seye Sylla <fsylla@gmail.com> wrote:
+1 to Roberto while I fully understand John's concern. Let's start monitoring attendance and participation first.
Fatimata
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019, 16:48 Jacqueline Morris <jam@jacquelinemorris.com> wrote:
Roberto Totally agree with you that we need to verify that the problem does exist, to what degree, and also, I think, why, if it does. Data is useful in understanding the problem, and the problem needs to be understood before solutions can be conceived and implemented. Regards Jacqueline
On Tue, 9 Jul 2019, 12:05 PM Roberto Gaetano, < roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com> wrote:
John, I am in full agreement with you about the identification of the problem and the need to find a solution that will necessarily include sanctions for the bad behaviours. However, I think that the problem is complex, and that we need to give some deeper thought about how to solve it. I am thinking, for instance, that ICANN has a similar problem with fellowship or other programmes that provide travel support. Can we collect information about how ICANN deals with that? Also, I am under the impression that the different participants to fellowship and similar programmes have obligations to fulfil, that their presence is checked, and so on. We can start making clear that some of these measures might be applied in Montreal - it is not to “control”, but to collect data points. As of today, we do not know to which extent the problem exists - for instance, to the best of my knowledge we did not check attendance at the previous ATLAS. I have a related - but not completely - question. Now that the selection of the participants who will enjoy travel support has been made, can we remove the limitation to participation to the ATLAS III Programme Committee? Incidentally, although this topic is not fully in scope of that Committee, maybe a first reflection on the topic could be done there? Thanks, Roberto
On 09.07.2019, at 16:40, Humberto Carrasco <hcarrascob@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear John,
I am with you. I believe there is all travellers must comply with Atlas III goals. Travelling to Canada is not a vacation. However, instead of saying 3 years, I would say for any ICANN funding for 5 years or the next ATLAS meeting. If I remember well the last ATLAS meeting was 2014 (5 years ago)
Regards
Enviado desde mi iPhone
El 09-07-2019, a la(s) 10:16, John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> escribió:
I would like us all to consider consequences for ATLASIII participants who travel but do not participate (excepting reasons of illness etc). This is a serious, professional responsibility and should be treated as such.
For a start, I would suggest that participants who fail to participate should be ineligible for funding and elections for 3 years.
I look forward to conversation on this topic leading to action by the ALAC.
Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
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-- Greg Shatan greg@isoc-ny.org President, ISOC-NY *"The Internet is for everyone"*
Thanks Greg. I'm on same page with you On 9 Jul 2019 19:59, Greg Shatan <greg@isoc-ny.org> wrote:
It should be completely understood by those receiving funding that they are being funded to attend ATLAS III, not to go sightseeing during the sessions.
Pardon my ignorance, but is there a statement made to applicants, and/or an agreement made by applicants, that if funded they will attend all ATLAS III sessions?
If the rule is not crystal clear to all funded travelers, it should be made crystal clear to all funded travelers. This is basic accountability (and self-accountability).
We shouldn’t wait until Atlas IV to ensure that this very basic rule is fully understood and enforced. There’s no reason to be timid about this — unless we want to reinforce the grossly unfair (but not entirely unfounded) “travel club” reputation.
We can figure out the nuances of how we know who attended (sign-in sheets, online sign-in, sign-in to Zoom or whatever application is supporting digital participation), what should be done to the travel funding privileges of those attending, and how to deal with legitimate excused absences (illness, work conflict, conflict with ICANN obligations). We will also need some flexibility to deal with someone who missed a session vs. someone who skipped out on multiple sessions, and someone who innocently missed a session (e.g., due to jet lag) vs. someone who purposefully skipped out.
Until then, we should confirm to all funded travelers that they understand that they are required to attend all ATLAS III sessions, and that failure to do so will likely affect their future travel funding. If this understanding is controversial, that is problematic.
Greg
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 2:24 PM Fatimata Seye Sylla <fsylla@gmail.com> wrote:
+1 to Roberto while I fully understand John's concern. Let's start monitoring attendance and participation first.
Fatimata
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019, 16:48 Jacqueline Morris <jam@jacquelinemorris.com> wrote:
Roberto Totally agree with you that we need to verify that the problem does exist, to what degree, and also, I think, why, if it does. Data is useful in understanding the problem, and the problem needs to be understood before solutions can be conceived and implemented. Regards Jacqueline
On Tue, 9 Jul 2019, 12:05 PM Roberto Gaetano, <roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com> wrote:
John, I am in full agreement with you about the identification of the problem and the need to find a solution that will necessarily include sanctions for the bad behaviours. However, I think that the problem is complex, and that we need to give some deeper thought about how to solve it. I am thinking, for instance, that ICANN has a similar problem with fellowship or other programmes that provide travel support. Can we collect information about how ICANN deals with that? Also, I am under the impression that the different participants to fellowship and similar programmes have obligations to fulfil, that their presence is checked, and so on. We can start making clear that some of these measures might be applied in Montreal - it is not to “control”, but to collect data points. As of today, we do not know to which extent the problem exists - for instance, to the best of my knowledge we did not check attendance at the previous ATLAS. I have a related - but not completely - question. Now that the selection of the participants who will enjoy travel support has been made, can we remove the limitation to participation to the ATLAS III Programme Committee? Incidentally, although this topic is not fully in scope of that Committee, maybe a first reflection on the topic could be done there? Thanks, Roberto
On 09.07.2019, at 16:40, Humberto Carrasco <hcarrascob@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear John,
I am with you. I believe there is all travellers must comply with Atlas III goals. Travelling to Canada is not a vacation. However, instead of saying 3 years, I would say for any ICANN funding for 5 years or the next ATLAS meeting. If I remember well the last ATLAS meeting was 2014 (5 years ago)
Regards
Enviado desde mi iPhone
El 09-07-2019, a la(s) 10:16, John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> escribió:
I would like us all to consider consequences for ATLASIII participants who travel but do not participate (excepting reasons of illness etc). This is a serious, professional responsibility and should be treated as such.
For a start, I would suggest that participants who fail to participate should be ineligible for funding and elections for 3 years.
I look forward to conversation on this topic leading to action by the ALAC.
Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
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-- Greg Shatan greg@isoc-ny.org President, ISOC-NY "The Internet is for everyone"
Totally agree that a formal statement shall be signed to all attending ATLAS III assuring their commitment to participate in all sessions and related events, contributing to its success. I do not believe there will be anyone who will not do so, but this is a worldwide selection and make sure anyone understand its commitment make sense to me. Best Vanda Scartezini Polo Consultores Associados Av. Paulista 1159, cj 1004 01311-200- Sao Paulo, SP, Brazil Land Line: +55 11 3266.6253 Mobile: + 55 11 98181.1464 Sorry for any typos. On 7/10/19, 08:41, "At-Large on behalf of Nkemdilim Nweke via At-Large" <at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org on behalf of at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> wrote: Thanks Greg. I'm on same page with you On 9 Jul 2019 19:59, Greg Shatan <greg@isoc-ny.org> wrote: > > It should be completely understood by those receiving funding that they are being funded to attend ATLAS III, not to go sightseeing during the sessions. > > Pardon my ignorance, but is there a statement made to applicants, and/or an agreement made by applicants, that if funded they will attend all ATLAS III sessions? > > If the rule is not crystal clear to all funded travelers, it should be made crystal clear to all funded travelers. This is basic accountability (and self-accountability). > > We shouldn’t wait until Atlas IV to ensure that this very basic rule is fully understood and enforced. There’s no reason to be timid about this — unless we want to reinforce the grossly unfair (but not entirely unfounded) “travel club” reputation. > > We can figure out the nuances of how we know who attended (sign-in sheets, online sign-in, sign-in to Zoom or whatever application is supporting digital participation), what should be done to the travel funding privileges of those attending, and how to deal with legitimate excused absences (illness, work conflict, conflict with ICANN obligations). We will also need some flexibility to deal with someone who missed a session vs. someone who skipped out on multiple sessions, and someone who innocently missed a session (e.g., due to jet lag) vs. someone who purposefully skipped out. > > Until then, we should confirm to all funded travelers that they understand that they are required to attend all ATLAS III sessions, and that failure to do so will likely affect their future travel funding. If this understanding is controversial, that is problematic. > > Greg > > On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 2:24 PM Fatimata Seye Sylla <fsylla@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> +1 to Roberto while I fully understand John's concern. >> Let's start monitoring attendance and participation first. >> >> Fatimata >> >> On Tue, Jul 9, 2019, 16:48 Jacqueline Morris <jam@jacquelinemorris.com> wrote: >>> >>> Roberto >>> Totally agree with you that we need to verify that the problem does exist, to what degree, and also, I think, why, if it does. >>> Data is useful in understanding the problem, and the problem needs to be understood before solutions can be conceived and implemented. >>> Regards >>> Jacqueline >>> >>> On Tue, 9 Jul 2019, 12:05 PM Roberto Gaetano, <roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> John, >>>> I am in full agreement with you about the identification of the problem and the need to find a solution that will necessarily include sanctions for the bad behaviours. >>>> However, I think that the problem is complex, and that we need to give some deeper thought about how to solve it. >>>> I am thinking, for instance, that ICANN has a similar problem with fellowship or other programmes that provide travel support. Can we collect information about how ICANN deals with that? Also, I am under the impression that the different participants to fellowship and similar programmes have obligations to fulfil, that their presence is checked, and so on. >>>> We can start making clear that some of these measures might be applied in Montreal - it is not to “control”, but to collect data points. As of today, we do not know to which extent the problem exists - for instance, to the best of my knowledge we did not check attendance at the previous ATLAS. >>>> I have a related - but not completely - question. Now that the selection of the participants who will enjoy travel support has been made, can we remove the limitation to participation to the ATLAS III Programme Committee? Incidentally, although this topic is not fully in scope of that Committee, maybe a first reflection on the topic could be done there? >>>> Thanks, >>>> Roberto >>>> >>>> >>>> > On 09.07.2019, at 16:40, Humberto Carrasco <hcarrascob@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > Dear John, >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > I am with you. I believe there is all travellers must comply with Atlas III goals. Travelling to Canada is not a vacation. However, instead of saying 3 years, I would say for any ICANN funding for 5 years or the next ATLAS meeting. If I remember well the last ATLAS meeting was 2014 (5 years ago) >>>> > >>>> > Regards >>>> > >>>> > Enviado desde mi iPhone >>>> > >>>> > El 09-07-2019, a la(s) 10:16, John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> escribió: >>>> > >>>> >> I would like us all to consider consequences for ATLASIII participants who travel but do not participate (excepting reasons of illness etc). This is a serious, professional responsibility and should be treated as such. >>>> >> >>>> >> For a start, I would suggest that participants who fail to participate should be ineligible for funding and elections for 3 years. >>>> >> >>>> >> I look forward to conversation on this topic leading to action by the ALAC. >>>> >> >>>> >> Sent from my Pixel 3XL >>>> >> >>>> >> John Laprise, Ph.D. >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>> >> At-Large mailing list >>>> >> At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org >>>> >> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large >>>> >> >>>> >> At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>> >> By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > At-Large mailing list >>>> > At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org >>>> > https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large >>>> > >>>> > At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> At-Large mailing list >>>> At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org >>>> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large >>>> >>>> At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> At-Large mailing list >>> At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org >>> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large >>> >>> At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org >>> _______________________________________________ >>> By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> At-Large mailing list >> At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org >> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large >> >> At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org >> _______________________________________________ >> By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. > > -- > Greg Shatan > greg@isoc-ny.org > President, ISOC-NY > "The Internet is for everyone" _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Hi all, I've been around like Gaetano, since before ALAC was created and I was part of the AFRALO formation I attended Atlas in London... I am sure that I would not have met the strict guidelines that appear to be emerging here... I don't think that I will attending the next one although I do think that we want: - people who understand the issues *MORE* than the process... - most of the At-Large meetings focus on process, the content is rarely discussed - GDRP was handled at a very superficial level and I do not think ANY of the content had *any* effect on the outcomes - the content was discussed in various other consituency meetings which I did attend, possibly more than the pure ALAC discussions - I do think that there are very imprtant and neccesary social networking for attendees - working for the rights of internet users is not always about sitting in meetings So, I'm tending more towards Carltons POV here... and we all agree that travel funding is not meant to be for a 'holiday', it's also not a "business trip" since these are volunteers and they have the right to do as they please... treat people like adults and they will behave that way.... Possibly a pre-qualification process will be useful.. Sincerely Alan
Totally agree , it is worth to seek legal feedback and put the appropriate rule in place and I am with no funding or any other benefit from ICANN perspective for any traveler violating the set rules . Regards Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 9, 2019, at 7:47 PM, Jacqueline Morris <jam@jacquelinemorris.com> wrote:
Roberto Totally agree with you that we need to verify that the problem does exist, to what degree, and also, I think, why, if it does. Data is useful in understanding the problem, and the problem needs to be understood before solutions can be conceived and implemented. Regards Jacqueline
On Tue, 9 Jul 2019, 12:05 PM Roberto Gaetano, <roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com> wrote: John, I am in full agreement with you about the identification of the problem and the need to find a solution that will necessarily include sanctions for the bad behaviours. However, I think that the problem is complex, and that we need to give some deeper thought about how to solve it. I am thinking, for instance, that ICANN has a similar problem with fellowship or other programmes that provide travel support. Can we collect information about how ICANN deals with that? Also, I am under the impression that the different participants to fellowship and similar programmes have obligations to fulfil, that their presence is checked, and so on. We can start making clear that some of these measures might be applied in Montreal - it is not to “control”, but to collect data points. As of today, we do not know to which extent the problem exists - for instance, to the best of my knowledge we did not check attendance at the previous ATLAS. I have a related - but not completely - question. Now that the selection of the participants who will enjoy travel support has been made, can we remove the limitation to participation to the ATLAS III Programme Committee? Incidentally, although this topic is not fully in scope of that Committee, maybe a first reflection on the topic could be done there? Thanks, Roberto
On 09.07.2019, at 16:40, Humberto Carrasco <hcarrascob@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear John,
I am with you. I believe there is all travellers must comply with Atlas III goals. Travelling to Canada is not a vacation. However, instead of saying 3 years, I would say for any ICANN funding for 5 years or the next ATLAS meeting. If I remember well the last ATLAS meeting was 2014 (5 years ago)
Regards
Enviado desde mi iPhone
El 09-07-2019, a la(s) 10:16, John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> escribió:
I would like us all to consider consequences for ATLASIII participants who travel but do not participate (excepting reasons of illness etc). This is a serious, professional responsibility and should be treated as such.
For a start, I would suggest that participants who fail to participate should be ineligible for funding and elections for 3 years.
I look forward to conversation on this topic leading to action by the ALAC.
Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
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Hi All, Thank you Roberto, for bringing the issue of data points. As you all know ATLAS III Program working group has sub-groups and one of the subgroups is Outcome You can find a prepared page to track activities of participants for Post ATLAS follow up. (It is still empty) https://community.icann.org/display/ATLAS3/Post+ATLAS+Follow+Ups I would like to direct the discussion on this thread to provide suggestions for collecting data points. It is important to start finding the effort for self-learning of ATLAS III participants after attending the meeting. So they will be able to pick on certain policy discussions of their interest and start to value-added contributions. Attending meetings and putting +1 doesn't mean an engagement, but until the outcomes of written inputs that when we say that we are harvesting the results of this participation. We also have to remember that there is a learning curve to get up to the expertise level. Hence I invite the community to start providing their ideas on how to develop which data points to be collected. Looking forward to hearing from you, Best wishes, Nadira ALARAJ On Tue, Jul 9, 2019, 19:05 Roberto Gaetano <roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com> wrote:
John, I am in full agreement with you about the identification of the problem and the need to find a solution that will necessarily include sanctions for the bad behaviours. However, I think that the problem is complex, and that we need to give some deeper thought about how to solve it. I am thinking, for instance, that ICANN has a similar problem with fellowship or other programmes that provide travel support. Can we collect information about how ICANN deals with that? Also, I am under the impression that the different participants to fellowship and similar programmes have obligations to fulfil, that their presence is checked, and so on. We can start making clear that some of these measures might be applied in Montreal - it is not to “control”, but to collect data points. As of today, we do not know to which extent the problem exists - for instance, to the best of my knowledge we did not check attendance at the previous ATLAS. I have a related - but not completely - question. Now that the selection of the participants who will enjoy travel support has been made, can we remove the limitation to participation to the ATLAS III Programme Committee? Incidentally, although this topic is not fully in scope of that Committee, maybe a first reflection on the topic could be done there? Thanks, Roberto
On 09.07.2019, at 16:40, Humberto Carrasco <hcarrascob@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear John,
I am with you. I believe there is all travellers must comply with Atlas III goals. Travelling to Canada is not a vacation. However, instead of saying 3 years, I would say for any ICANN funding for 5 years or the next ATLAS meeting. If I remember well the last ATLAS meeting was 2014 (5 years ago)
Regards
Enviado desde mi iPhone
El 09-07-2019, a la(s) 10:16, John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> escribió:
I would like us all to consider consequences for ATLASIII participants who travel but do not participate (excepting reasons of illness etc). This is a serious, professional responsibility and should be treated as such.
For a start, I would suggest that participants who fail to participate should be ineligible for funding and elections for 3 years.
I look forward to conversation on this topic leading to action by the ALAC.
Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
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Dear friends, I agree with humberto, I think 3 years are not enough. I have seen in the list, people who were in London in 2014 who literally went on vacation to Great Britain. I believe that the path should be a sanction ranging from Atlas III to IV (included), without any funding in between. Regards Sergio Salinas Porto Presidente Internauta Argentina - LACRALO/ICANN Asociación Argentina de Usuarios de Internet/FeTIA FUILAC- Federación de Usuarios de Internet de LAC facebook: salinasporto twitter: sergiosalinas Mobi:+54 9 223 5 215819 "Ojalá podamos ser desobedientes, cada vez que recibimos órdenes que humillan nuestra conciencia o violan nuestro sentido común" Eduardo Galeano Mostrar texto citado El mar., 9 jul. 2019 11:40, Humberto Carrasco <hcarrascob@gmail.com> escribió:
Dear John,
I am with you. I believe there is all travellers must comply with Atlas III goals. Travelling to Canada is not a vacation. However, instead of saying 3 years, I would say for any ICANN funding for 5 years or the next ATLAS meeting. If I remember well the last ATLAS meeting was 2014 (5 years ago)
Regards
Enviado desde mi iPhone
El 09-07-2019, a la(s) 10:16, John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> escribió:
I would like us all to consider consequences for ATLASIII participants who travel but do not participate (excepting reasons of illness etc). This is a serious, professional responsibility and should be treated as such.
For a start, I would suggest that participants who fail to participate should be ineligible for funding and elections for 3 years.
I look forward to conversation on this topic leading to action by the ALAC.
Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
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For Atlas II, no metrics had been reported. For Atlas III, yes, and they were made explicit with sufficient time. And regardless of whether we knew something or not, the content of webinars or courses, as Olivier said, it is always good to learn something. and conform to the rules, it is much better. Regards Alberto De: At-Large <at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> en nombre de Sergio Salinas Porto <presidencia@internauta.org.ar> Fecha: domingo, 14 de julio de 2019, 10:32 Para: Humberto Carrasco <hcarrascob@gmail.com> CC: At-Large Worldwide <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Asunto: Re: [At-Large] ATLASIII Participation Dear friends, I agree with humberto, I think 3 years are not enough. I have seen in the list, people who were in London in 2014 who literally went on vacation to Great Britain. I believe that the path should be a sanction ranging from Atlas III to IV (included), without any funding in between. Regards Sergio Salinas Porto Presidente Internauta Argentina - LACRALO/ICANN Asociación Argentina de Usuarios de Internet/FeTIA FUILAC- Federación de Usuarios de Internet de LAC facebook: salinasporto twitter: sergiosalinas Mobi:+54 9 223 5 215819 "Ojalá podamos ser desobedientes, cada vez que recibimos órdenes que humillan nuestra conciencia o violan nuestro sentido común" Eduardo Galeano Mostrar texto citado El mar., 9 jul. 2019 11:40, Humberto Carrasco <hcarrascob@gmail.com> escribió: Dear John, I am with you. I believe there is all travellers must comply with Atlas III goals. Travelling to Canada is not a vacation. However, instead of saying 3 years, I would say for any ICANN funding for 5 years or the next ATLAS meeting. If I remember well the last ATLAS meeting was 2014 (5 years ago) Regards
+1 Sylvia Herlein Leite De: At-Large [mailto:at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] Em nome de Sergio Salinas Porto Enviada em: domingo, 14 de julho de 2019 10:19 Para: Humberto Carrasco Cc: At-Large Worldwide Assunto: Re: [At-Large] ATLASIII Participation Dear friends, I agree with humberto, I think 3 years are not enough. I have seen in the list, people who were in London in 2014 who literally went on vacation to Great Britain. I believe that the path should be a sanction ranging from Atlas III to IV (included), without any funding in between. Regards Sergio Salinas Porto Presidente Internauta Argentina - LACRALO/ICANN Asociación Argentina de Usuarios de Internet/FeTIA FUILAC- Federación de Usuarios de Internet de LAC facebook: salinasporto twitter: sergiosalinas Mobi:+54 9 223 5 215819 "Ojalá podamos ser desobedientes, cada vez que recibimos órdenes que humillan nuestra conciencia o violan nuestro sentido común" Eduardo Galeano Mostrar texto citado El mar., 9 jul. 2019 11:40, Humberto Carrasco <hcarrascob@gmail.com <mailto:hcarrascob@gmail.com> > escribió: Dear John, I am with you. I believe there is all travellers must comply with Atlas III goals. Travelling to Canada is not a vacation. However, instead of saying 3 years, I would say for any ICANN funding for 5 years or the next ATLAS meeting. If I remember well the last ATLAS meeting was 2014 (5 years ago) Regards Enviado desde mi iPhone El 09-07-2019, a la(s) 10:16, John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com <mailto:jlaprise@gmail.com> > escribió:
I would like us all to consider consequences for ATLASIII participants who travel but do not participate (excepting reasons of illness etc). This is a serious, professional responsibility and should be treated as such.
For a start, I would suggest that participants who fail to participate should be ineligible for funding and elections for 3 years.
I look forward to conversation on this topic leading to action by the ALAC.
Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org <mailto:At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
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Hear hear! I think many of us are frustrated with the "ICANN tourists" that take funds and travelling slots from hard-working policy people. Julf On 09-07-19 16:16, John Laprise wrote:
I would like us all to consider consequences for ATLASIII participants who travel but do not participate (excepting reasons of illness etc). This is a serious, professional responsibility and should be treated as such.
For a start, I would suggest that participants who fail to participate should be ineligible for funding and elections for 3 years.
I look forward to conversation on this topic leading to action by the ALAC.
Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D.
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
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Sent from my mobile Kindly excuse brevity and typos On Tue, 9 Jul 2019, 19:59 Johan Helsingius, <julf@julf.com> wrote:
Hear hear! I think many of us are frustrated with the "ICANN tourists" that take funds and travelling slots from hard-working policy people.
SO: Am not sure how the people you refer do that, but I know "hard-working" policy people are tourists as well ;-) On a much more serious note, I agree with Greg's suggestion that expectations should be communicated to participants, ofcourse level of participation will vary across board, but I think attendance at specific sessions should be minimum requirement for all. Regards
Julf
On 09-07-19 16:16, John Laprise wrote:
I would like us all to consider consequences for ATLASIII participants who travel but do not participate (excepting reasons of illness etc). This is a serious, professional responsibility and should be treated as such.
For a start, I would suggest that participants who fail to participate should be ineligible for funding and elections for 3 years.
I look forward to conversation on this topic leading to action by the ALAC.
Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D.
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
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Hi Seun, Attending ATLAS III sessions would be of value to some and might be of less for others because of the different ICANN background level of the participants. Until now we have no idea about the capacity building program of ATLAS III. I trust the selected participants does have the responsibility to be committed. In all cases, what matters is the dedication and follow-up after the meeting. Here I would like to direct the discussion to my earlier email. Best wishes Nadira On Tue, Jul 9, 2019, 22:29 Seun Ojedeji <seun.ojedeji@gmail.com> wrote:
Sent from my mobile Kindly excuse brevity and typos
On Tue, 9 Jul 2019, 19:59 Johan Helsingius, <julf@julf.com> wrote:
Hear hear! I think many of us are frustrated with the "ICANN tourists" that take funds and travelling slots from hard-working policy people.
SO: Am not sure how the people you refer do that, but I know "hard-working" policy people are tourists as well ;-)
On a much more serious note, I agree with Greg's suggestion that expectations should be communicated to participants, ofcourse level of participation will vary across board, but I think attendance at specific sessions should be minimum requirement for all.
Regards
Julf
On 09-07-19 16:16, John Laprise wrote:
I would like us all to consider consequences for ATLASIII participants who travel but do not participate (excepting reasons of illness etc). This is a serious, professional responsibility and should be treated as such.
For a start, I would suggest that participants who fail to participate should be ineligible for funding and elections for 3 years.
I look forward to conversation on this topic leading to action by the ALAC.
Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D.
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
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On 09-07-19 21:29, Seun Ojedeji wrote:
SO: Am not sure how the people you refer do that, but I know "hard-working" policy people are tourists as well ;-)
There is a difference between taking a day or two before or after a meeting for sight-seeing and spending the actual meeting days at the pool, beach or golf course... Julf
John: As a Fellow and NASIG organizer a MOU was sent to all selected and we had to agree to all conditions and sign. Once that documentation was received it was official to proceed with Travel arrangements. Additionally, during the different sessions a visual (look-around) was done, since all Fellows should have stated their schedule for the dates at each ICANN Meeting. I the case of our NASIG daily attendance was required.
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On Jul 9, 2019, at 10:16 AM, John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> wrote:
I would like us all to consider consequences for ATLASIII participants who travel but do not participate (excepting reasons of illness etc). This is a serious, professional responsibility and should be treated as such.
For a start, I would suggest that participants who fail to participate should be ineligible for funding and elections for 3 years.
I look forward to conversation on this topic leading to action by the ALAC.
Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
I think at this point we have sufficient data to assess that in the past, ATLAS participants were not always as diligent as we would like. I'm all for collecting data at ATLASIII, however we should have in place remedies for failure to abide by the MOU in place before rather than after On Tue, Jul 9, 2019, 2:59 PM Alfredo Calderon <calderon.alfredo@gmail.com> wrote:
John:
As a Fellow and NASIG organizer a MOU was sent to all selected and we had to agree to all conditions and sign. Once that documentation was received it was official to proceed with Travel arrangements.
Additionally, during the different sessions a visual (look-around) was done, since all Fellows should have stated their schedule for the dates at each ICANN Meeting. I the case of our NASIG daily attendance was required.
[image: photo]
*Alfredo Calderon* eLearning Consultant
calderon.alfredo@gmail.com |http://aprendizajedistancia.blogspot.com | Skype: Alfredo_1212| wiseintro.co/alfredocalderon
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On Jul 9, 2019, at 10:16 AM, John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> wrote:
I would like us all to consider consequences for ATLASIII participants who travel but do not participate (excepting reasons of illness etc). This is a serious, professional responsibility and should be treated as such.
For a start, I would suggest that participants who fail to participate should be ineligible for funding and elections for 3 years.
I look forward to conversation on this topic leading to action by the ALAC.
Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D.
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Hi John I think that until one knows the cause of the disease, any remedy is at best, a guess. It could save, or kill. Or simply be a waste of resources. Regards Jacqueline Morris On Tue, 9 Jul 2019, 4:12 PM John Laprise, <jlaprise@gmail.com> wrote:
I think at this point we have sufficient data to assess that in the past, ATLAS participants were not always as diligent as we would like. I'm all for collecting data at ATLASIII, however we should have in place remedies for failure to abide by the MOU in place before rather than after
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019, 2:59 PM Alfredo Calderon <calderon.alfredo@gmail.com> wrote:
John:
As a Fellow and NASIG organizer a MOU was sent to all selected and we had to agree to all conditions and sign. Once that documentation was received it was official to proceed with Travel arrangements.
Additionally, during the different sessions a visual (look-around) was done, since all Fellows should have stated their schedule for the dates at each ICANN Meeting. I the case of our NASIG daily attendance was required.
[image: photo]
*Alfredo Calderon* eLearning Consultant
calderon.alfredo@gmail.com |http://aprendizajedistancia.blogspot.com | Skype: Alfredo_1212| wiseintro.co/alfredocalderon
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On Jul 9, 2019, at 10:16 AM, John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> wrote:
I would like us all to consider consequences for ATLASIII participants who travel but do not participate (excepting reasons of illness etc). This is a serious, professional responsibility and should be treated as such.
For a start, I would suggest that participants who fail to participate should be ineligible for funding and elections for 3 years.
I look forward to conversation on this topic leading to action by the ALAC.
Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D.
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
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And not to labour the point, but all ATLASIII participants need to know up front what is expected of them both in behavour and work, and consequences for failuare to meet the know standards Holly ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Laprise" To:"At-Large Worldwide" Cc: Sent:Tue, 9 Jul 2019 15:11:44 -0500 Subject:Re: [At-Large] ATLASIII Participation I think at this point we have sufficient data to assess that in the past, ATLAS participants were not always as diligent as we would like. I'm all for collecting data at ATLASIII, however we should have in place remedies for failure to abide by the MOU in place before rather than after On Tue, Jul 9, 2019, 2:59 PM Alfredo Calderon wrote: John: As a Fellow and NASIG organizer a MOU was sent to all selected and we had to agree to all conditions and sign. Once that documentation was received it was official to proceed with Travel arrangements. Additionally, during the different sessions a visual (look-around) was done, since all Fellows should have stated their schedule for the dates at each ICANN Meeting. I the case of our NASIG daily attendance was required. ALFREDO CALDERON eLearning Consultant calderon.alfredo@gmail.com [2] |http://aprendizajedistancia.blogspot.com [3] | Skype: Alfredo_1212| wiseintro.co/alfredocalderon [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] Get your own email signature [13] On Jul 9, 2019, at 10:16 AM, John Laprise wrote: I would like us all to consider consequences for ATLASIII participants who travel but do not participate (excepting reasons of illness etc). This is a serious, professional responsibility and should be treated as such. For a start, I would suggest that participants who fail to participate should be ineligible for funding and elections for 3 years. I look forward to conversation on this topic leading to action by the ALAC. Sent from my Pixel 3XL John Laprise, Ph.D. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org [15] https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large [16] At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org [17] _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy [18]) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos [19]). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. Links: ------ [1] mailto:calderon.alfredo@gmail.com [2] mailto:calderon.alfredo@gmail.com [3] http://aprendizajedistancia.blogspot.com/ [4] http://wiseintro.co/alfredocalderon [5] http://facebook.com/calderonalfredo [6] http://pr.linkedin.com/in/acalderon52 [7] http://twitter.com/acalderon52 [8] http://plus.google.com/u/0/103289446075444313762/posts [9] http://www.pinterest.com/acalderon/ [10] http://www.slideshare.net/acalderon [11] http://klout.com/#/acalderon52 [12] http://wiseintro.co/alfredocalderon [13] https://wisestamp.com/email-install?utm_source=promotion&utm_medium=signature&utm_campaign=get_your_own [14] mailto:jlaprise@gmail.com [15] mailto:At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org [16] https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large [17] http://atlarge.icann.org [18] https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy [19] https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos
A quick question - were all of these explained to applicants before they applied? Because it seems to me to be a bit "bait and switch" to impose requirements and penalties AFTER the application process has ended, and the winning candidates have been chosen and are making ready to travel. Jacqueline A. Morris Technology should be like oxygen: Ubiquitous, Necessary, Invisible and Free. (after Chris Lehmann <http://twitter.com/chrislehmann> ) On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 9:21 PM <h.raiche@internode.on.net> wrote:
And not to labour the point, but all ATLASIII participants need to know up front what is expected of them both in behavour and work, and consequences for failuare to meet the know standards
Holly
----- Original Message ----- From: "John Laprise" <jlaprise@gmail.com>
To: "At-Large Worldwide" <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Cc:
Sent: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 15:11:44 -0500 Subject: Re: [At-Large] ATLASIII Participation
I think at this point we have sufficient data to assess that in the past, ATLAS participants were not always as diligent as we would like. I'm all for collecting data at ATLASIII, however we should have in place remedies for failure to abide by the MOU in place before rather than after
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019, 2:59 PM Alfredo Calderon <calderon.alfredo@gmail.com> wrote:
John:
As a Fellow and NASIG organizer a MOU was sent to all selected and we had to agree to all conditions and sign. Once that documentation was received it was official to proceed with Travel arrangements.
Additionally, during the different sessions a visual (look-around) was done, since all Fellows should have stated their schedule for the dates at each ICANN Meeting. I the case of our NASIG daily attendance was required.
*Alfredo Calderon* eLearning Consultant
calderon.alfredo@gmail.com |http://aprendizajedistancia.blogspot.com | Skype: Alfredo_1212| wiseintro.co/alfredocalderon
<http://facebook.com/calderon.alfredo>
<http://pr.linkedin.com/in/acalderon52>
<http://twitter.com/acalderon52>
<http://plus.google.com/u/0/103289446075444313762/posts>
<http://www.pinterest.com/acalderon/>
<http://www.slideshare.net/acalderon>
<http://klout.com/#/acalderon52>
<http://wiseintro.co/alfredocalderon>
Get your own email signature <https://wisestamp.com/email-install?utm_source=promotion&utm_medium=signatur...>
On Jul 9, 2019, at 10:16 AM, John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> wrote:
I would like us all to consider consequences for ATLASIII participants who travel but do not participate (excepting reasons of illness etc). This is a serious, professional responsibility and should be treated as such.
For a start, I would suggest that participants who fail to participate should be ineligible for funding and elections for 3 years.
I look forward to conversation on this topic leading to action by the ALAC.
Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D.
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Dear John: I know you mean well. But I must register my profound and utter disagreement with you here. And, on principle. At-Large representatives are volunteers. Largely. I am seethe at this indignity that a measure of my voluntarism connects to me flying somewhere to volunteer my time, my energy, my intellectual capital and yes, my labour, all as public goods. I would not wish to be so judged. And what is proposed is nothing but an episode of the slave's torment; doing what he thinks would appease his master by providing the hog grease for the leather whip that stipes his own back. I came to this opposition from bitter experience. It started when I was the only elected LACRALO official. And in a period when travel was dangled as a benefit to volunteers. I couldn't give a tinker's damn since by that time I had already racked up 2 million plus airmiles. And traveling steerage class is not my idea of a fun time. In that period of time, LACRALO arguably provided the most egregious examples of the ICANN tourist traveler. And I suffered the slings of my northern metropolitan colleagues for vehemently opposing sanctions on the then LACRALO ALAC representatives. [I am ever grateful to Evan for supporting me on principle!] My argument was those persons behaved badly as individuals. I told them so. One has hated me to this day. But inspite of him, I adamantly refused to support travel sanctions against them. That action reinforces that rather louche idea that travel is a benefit rather than the tool that it is to get a job done. And to hypothecate the tool as security for work to be done seems immoral to me. Value is assigned my time and intellectual capital by others; I sell them for fee. I got home less than 2 hours ago from Suriname. Most in this thread would likely not even know where that is. it is a hump to get to. And, somebody paid me for that. As a volunteer, my time, intellectual capital and my own coin have been placed in trust and in the service of the At-Large. An airplane ticket in steerage does not begin to compensate me as volunteer. It is no benefit to me or for me. It is rude and crude to suggest, must less legislate, that it is. My position has not changed in these many years because the same response offends reason and conscience. It is for the At-Large constituents to pick representatives. And this seemingly Pavlovian response proffered is and remains a bad policy idea. It is inimical to the spirit of volutarism - real voluntarism! - that premises the At-Large engagement. Best, -Carlton ============================== *Carlton A Samuels* *Mobile: 876-818-1799Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* ============================= On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 9:16 AM John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> wrote:
I would like us all to consider consequences for ATLASIII participants who travel but do not participate (excepting reasons of illness etc). This is a serious, professional responsibility and should be treated as such.
For a start, I would suggest that participants who fail to participate should be ineligible for funding and elections for 3 years.
I look forward to conversation on this topic leading to action by the ALAC.
Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
People who choose to take offense at accountability and responsibility (even as a volunteer), choose to be offended. Please note that I believe that while I may have initially referenced travel funding, I meant to include all funding and ineligibility for elected positions to be fair. If we cannot rely on a volunteer on a single dedicated occasion, it is foolish to rely on such an individual in other circumstances, volunteer or not. We disagree. On Tue, Jul 9, 2019, 4:15 PM Carlton Samuels <carlton.samuels@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear John: I know you mean well. But I must register my profound and utter disagreement with you here. And, on principle.
At-Large representatives are volunteers. Largely.
I am seethe at this indignity that a measure of my voluntarism connects to me flying somewhere to volunteer my time, my energy, my intellectual capital and yes, my labour, all as public goods.
I would not wish to be so judged. And what is proposed is nothing but an episode of the slave's torment; doing what he thinks would appease his master by providing the hog grease for the leather whip that stipes his own back.
I came to this opposition from bitter experience. It started when I was the only elected LACRALO official. And in a period when travel was dangled as a benefit to volunteers. I couldn't give a tinker's damn since by that time I had already racked up 2 million plus airmiles. And traveling steerage class is not my idea of a fun time.
In that period of time, LACRALO arguably provided the most egregious examples of the ICANN tourist traveler. And I suffered the slings of my northern metropolitan colleagues for vehemently opposing sanctions on the then LACRALO ALAC representatives. [I am ever grateful to Evan for supporting me on principle!] My argument was those persons behaved badly as individuals. I told them so. One has hated me to this day. But inspite of him, I adamantly refused to support travel sanctions against them. That action reinforces that rather louche idea that travel is a benefit rather than the tool that it is to get a job done. And to hypothecate the tool as security for work to be done seems immoral to me.
Value is assigned my time and intellectual capital by others; I sell them for fee. I got home less than 2 hours ago from Suriname. Most in this thread would likely not even know where that is. it is a hump to get to. And, somebody paid me for that.
As a volunteer, my time, intellectual capital and my own coin have been placed in trust and in the service of the At-Large. An airplane ticket in steerage does not begin to compensate me as volunteer. It is no benefit to me or for me. It is rude and crude to suggest, must less legislate, that it is.
My position has not changed in these many years because the same response offends reason and conscience. It is for the At-Large constituents to pick representatives. And this seemingly Pavlovian response proffered is and remains a bad policy idea. It is inimical to the spirit of volutarism - real voluntarism! - that premises the At-Large engagement.
Best, -Carlton
============================== *Carlton A Samuels*
*Mobile: 876-818-1799Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* =============================
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 9:16 AM John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> wrote:
I would like us all to consider consequences for ATLASIII participants who travel but do not participate (excepting reasons of illness etc). This is a serious, professional responsibility and should be treated as such.
For a start, I would suggest that participants who fail to participate should be ineligible for funding and elections for 3 years.
I look forward to conversation on this topic leading to action by the ALAC.
Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
I quite understand the draw for the 'accountability thing'. And I concede my bona fides in the At-Large in general and the previous two ATLAS events in particular are hardly enough to caution. The problem is proffering traveling to ICANN events as a benefit. For volunteers. It is not. That characterisation is dead wrong. Where a benefit is alleged, the natural inclination is to account costs. And no accountant worth spit would wish to ignore some of the ledgers. I submit the volunteer's time, intellectual capital and coin are worthy. -Carlton ============================== *Carlton A Samuels* *Mobile: 876-818-1799Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* ============================= On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 4:30 PM John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> wrote:
People who choose to take offense at accountability and responsibility (even as a volunteer), choose to be offended.
Please note that I believe that while I may have initially referenced travel funding, I meant to include all funding and ineligibility for elected positions to be fair. If we cannot rely on a volunteer on a single dedicated occasion, it is foolish to rely on such an individual in other circumstances, volunteer or not.
We disagree.
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019, 4:15 PM Carlton Samuels <carlton.samuels@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear John: I know you mean well. But I must register my profound and utter disagreement with you here. And, on principle.
At-Large representatives are volunteers. Largely.
I am seethe at this indignity that a measure of my voluntarism connects to me flying somewhere to volunteer my time, my energy, my intellectual capital and yes, my labour, all as public goods.
I would not wish to be so judged. And what is proposed is nothing but an episode of the slave's torment; doing what he thinks would appease his master by providing the hog grease for the leather whip that stipes his own back.
I came to this opposition from bitter experience. It started when I was the only elected LACRALO official. And in a period when travel was dangled as a benefit to volunteers. I couldn't give a tinker's damn since by that time I had already racked up 2 million plus airmiles. And traveling steerage class is not my idea of a fun time.
In that period of time, LACRALO arguably provided the most egregious examples of the ICANN tourist traveler. And I suffered the slings of my northern metropolitan colleagues for vehemently opposing sanctions on the then LACRALO ALAC representatives. [I am ever grateful to Evan for supporting me on principle!] My argument was those persons behaved badly as individuals. I told them so. One has hated me to this day. But inspite of him, I adamantly refused to support travel sanctions against them. That action reinforces that rather louche idea that travel is a benefit rather than the tool that it is to get a job done. And to hypothecate the tool as security for work to be done seems immoral to me.
Value is assigned my time and intellectual capital by others; I sell them for fee. I got home less than 2 hours ago from Suriname. Most in this thread would likely not even know where that is. it is a hump to get to. And, somebody paid me for that.
As a volunteer, my time, intellectual capital and my own coin have been placed in trust and in the service of the At-Large. An airplane ticket in steerage does not begin to compensate me as volunteer. It is no benefit to me or for me. It is rude and crude to suggest, must less legislate, that it is.
My position has not changed in these many years because the same response offends reason and conscience. It is for the At-Large constituents to pick representatives. And this seemingly Pavlovian response proffered is and remains a bad policy idea. It is inimical to the spirit of volutarism - real voluntarism! - that premises the At-Large engagement.
Best, -Carlton
============================== *Carlton A Samuels*
*Mobile: 876-818-1799Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* =============================
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 9:16 AM John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> wrote:
I would like us all to consider consequences for ATLASIII participants who travel but do not participate (excepting reasons of illness etc). This is a serious, professional responsibility and should be treated as such.
For a start, I would suggest that participants who fail to participate should be ineligible for funding and elections for 3 years.
I look forward to conversation on this topic leading to action by the ALAC.
Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Carlton, I don’t believe anyone in this thread called travel funding a “benefit.” So you are fighting a paper tiger. But I agree that the characterization is dead wrong. Travel funding is not a benefit. Quite the opposite. It is an obligation, on the one who receives it. Best regards, Greg On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 6:06 PM Carlton Samuels <carlton.samuels@gmail.com> wrote:
I quite understand the draw for the 'accountability thing'. And I concede my bona fides in the At-Large in general and the previous two ATLAS events in particular are hardly enough to caution.
The problem is proffering traveling to ICANN events as a benefit. For volunteers.
It is not. That characterisation is dead wrong.
Where a benefit is alleged, the natural inclination is to account costs. And no accountant worth spit would wish to ignore some of the ledgers. I submit the volunteer's time, intellectual capital and coin are worthy.
-Carlton ============================== *Carlton A Samuels*
*Mobile: 876-818-1799Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* =============================
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 4:30 PM John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> wrote:
People who choose to take offense at accountability and responsibility (even as a volunteer), choose to be offended.
Please note that I believe that while I may have initially referenced travel funding, I meant to include all funding and ineligibility for elected positions to be fair. If we cannot rely on a volunteer on a single dedicated occasion, it is foolish to rely on such an individual in other circumstances, volunteer or not.
We disagree.
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019, 4:15 PM Carlton Samuels <carlton.samuels@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear John: I know you mean well. But I must register my profound and utter disagreement with you here. And, on principle.
At-Large representatives are volunteers. Largely.
I am seethe at this indignity that a measure of my voluntarism connects to me flying somewhere to volunteer my time, my energy, my intellectual capital and yes, my labour, all as public goods.
I would not wish to be so judged. And what is proposed is nothing but an episode of the slave's torment; doing what he thinks would appease his master by providing the hog grease for the leather whip that stipes his own back.
I came to this opposition from bitter experience. It started when I was the only elected LACRALO official. And in a period when travel was dangled as a benefit to volunteers. I couldn't give a tinker's damn since by that time I had already racked up 2 million plus airmiles. And traveling steerage class is not my idea of a fun time.
In that period of time, LACRALO arguably provided the most egregious examples of the ICANN tourist traveler. And I suffered the slings of my northern metropolitan colleagues for vehemently opposing sanctions on the then LACRALO ALAC representatives. [I am ever grateful to Evan for supporting me on principle!] My argument was those persons behaved badly as individuals. I told them so. One has hated me to this day. But inspite of him, I adamantly refused to support travel sanctions against them. That action reinforces that rather louche idea that travel is a benefit rather than the tool that it is to get a job done. And to hypothecate the tool as security for work to be done seems immoral to me.
Value is assigned my time and intellectual capital by others; I sell them for fee. I got home less than 2 hours ago from Suriname. Most in this thread would likely not even know where that is. it is a hump to get to. And, somebody paid me for that.
As a volunteer, my time, intellectual capital and my own coin have been placed in trust and in the service of the At-Large. An airplane ticket in steerage does not begin to compensate me as volunteer. It is no benefit to me or for me. It is rude and crude to suggest, must less legislate, that it is.
My position has not changed in these many years because the same response offends reason and conscience. It is for the At-Large constituents to pick representatives. And this seemingly Pavlovian response proffered is and remains a bad policy idea. It is inimical to the spirit of volutarism - real voluntarism! - that premises the At-Large engagement.
Best, -Carlton
============================== *Carlton A Samuels*
*Mobile: 876-818-1799Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* =============================
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 9:16 AM John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> wrote:
I would like us all to consider consequences for ATLASIII participants who travel but do not participate (excepting reasons of illness etc). This is a serious, professional responsibility and should be treated as such.
For a start, I would suggest that participants who fail to participate should be ineligible for funding and elections for 3 years.
I look forward to conversation on this topic leading to action by the ALAC.
Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
-- Greg Shatan greg@isoc-ny.org President, ISOC-NY *"The Internet is for everyone"*
That one or two among a hundred participants in the past took a Wednesday off does not imply that At Large should draw up an enforce rules of attendance and penalties that can never be exhaustive enough ( What happens if the participant's flight is delayed? What happens when the participant is unwell? What if it is in ICANN's best interests when the participant's expertise is required in another parallel session? What if a participant has a compelling need to be excused from one or two sessions? ) It would require a rule book and a process of implementation, which would shift the ATLAS focus to compliance. The participants are not school boys. Most of the participants, as Carlton observes, offer their valuable time to ATLAS and ICANN, without reward or acknowledgement of the value of their contribution. Most of them do not participate to comply with the requirements, but to exceed any requirement as understood, by ICANN conventions, that is to say, the participation is not 9-5 for four days, but more like 6 am to 12 midnight for seven days or more, not counting time spent in the visa process, time spent in traveling, time spent ahead and after the event by discussions online. While the point about the required commitment is valid, it is not necessary to stipulate rules, device a process to enforce rules and impose penalties. The value of the participant's contribution, in most cases, in ways measurable or not, far, far exceeds the funding of about $5000 per participant which does NOT in any manner amount to a monetary benefit that the participant takes home. Sivasubramanian M On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 3:37 AM Carlton Samuels <carlton.samuels@gmail.com> wrote:
I quite understand the draw for the 'accountability thing'. And I concede my bona fides in the At-Large in general and the previous two ATLAS events in particular are hardly enough to caution.
The problem is proffering traveling to ICANN events as a benefit. For volunteers.
It is not. That characterisation is dead wrong.
Where a benefit is alleged, the natural inclination is to account costs. And no accountant worth spit would wish to ignore some of the ledgers. I submit the volunteer's time, intellectual capital and coin are worthy.
-Carlton ============================== *Carlton A Samuels*
*Mobile: 876-818-1799Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* =============================
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 4:30 PM John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> wrote:
People who choose to take offense at accountability and responsibility (even as a volunteer), choose to be offended.
Please note that I believe that while I may have initially referenced travel funding, I meant to include all funding and ineligibility for elected positions to be fair. If we cannot rely on a volunteer on a single dedicated occasion, it is foolish to rely on such an individual in other circumstances, volunteer or not.
We disagree.
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019, 4:15 PM Carlton Samuels <carlton.samuels@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear John: I know you mean well. But I must register my profound and utter disagreement with you here. And, on principle.
At-Large representatives are volunteers. Largely.
I am seethe at this indignity that a measure of my voluntarism connects to me flying somewhere to volunteer my time, my energy, my intellectual capital and yes, my labour, all as public goods.
I would not wish to be so judged. And what is proposed is nothing but an episode of the slave's torment; doing what he thinks would appease his master by providing the hog grease for the leather whip that stipes his own back.
I came to this opposition from bitter experience. It started when I was the only elected LACRALO official. And in a period when travel was dangled as a benefit to volunteers. I couldn't give a tinker's damn since by that time I had already racked up 2 million plus airmiles. And traveling steerage class is not my idea of a fun time.
In that period of time, LACRALO arguably provided the most egregious examples of the ICANN tourist traveler. And I suffered the slings of my northern metropolitan colleagues for vehemently opposing sanctions on the then LACRALO ALAC representatives. [I am ever grateful to Evan for supporting me on principle!] My argument was those persons behaved badly as individuals. I told them so. One has hated me to this day. But inspite of him, I adamantly refused to support travel sanctions against them. That action reinforces that rather louche idea that travel is a benefit rather than the tool that it is to get a job done. And to hypothecate the tool as security for work to be done seems immoral to me.
Value is assigned my time and intellectual capital by others; I sell them for fee. I got home less than 2 hours ago from Suriname. Most in this thread would likely not even know where that is. it is a hump to get to. And, somebody paid me for that.
As a volunteer, my time, intellectual capital and my own coin have been placed in trust and in the service of the At-Large. An airplane ticket in steerage does not begin to compensate me as volunteer. It is no benefit to me or for me. It is rude and crude to suggest, must less legislate, that it is.
My position has not changed in these many years because the same response offends reason and conscience. It is for the At-Large constituents to pick representatives. And this seemingly Pavlovian response proffered is and remains a bad policy idea. It is inimical to the spirit of volutarism - real voluntarism! - that premises the At-Large engagement.
Best, -Carlton
============================== *Carlton A Samuels*
*Mobile: 876-818-1799Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* =============================
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 9:16 AM John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> wrote:
I would like us all to consider consequences for ATLASIII participants who travel but do not participate (excepting reasons of illness etc). This is a serious, professional responsibility and should be treated as such.
For a start, I would suggest that participants who fail to participate should be ineligible for funding and elections for 3 years.
I look forward to conversation on this topic leading to action by the ALAC.
Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
I have no problem with volunteers giving as much or as little of their time as they can. This is not about judging the measure of one’s participation. Every bit helps. Time is a limited resource. So is travel funding. Both should be valued. Neither should be wasted. For a person to take money intended to bring a person to a place to do a thing, and then not doing that thing to the best of their ability is a selfish squandering of resources. And it is likely to deny the opportunity to another volunteer who can better use that resource. I agree that travel funding is (as Carlton says) “a tool to get the job done.” Taking the funding and then not using it fully to get the job done is like taking a bag of hammers and throwing them in the river. Why give that person more hammers? This is not about hypothecation or compensation. This is about waste. We don’t need to have draconian or arbitrary punishments. We do have to stop wasting our resources — whether it is time, funding or reputation. If there is a good faith explanation why someone takes money to bring them to Atlas III and then misses most of the sessions, we should hear it (real life and job disasters can come up at any time). If a volunteer can’t commit fully to participating in Atlas III (or any other thing), that is perfectly fine. Just don’t take the money intended to support a limited number of people in that participation. Greg On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 5:30 PM John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> wrote:
People who choose to take offense at accountability and responsibility (even as a volunteer), choose to be offended.
Please note that I believe that while I may have initially referenced travel funding, I meant to include all funding and ineligibility for elected positions to be fair. If we cannot rely on a volunteer on a single dedicated occasion, it is foolish to rely on such an individual in other circumstances, volunteer or not.
We disagree.
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019, 4:15 PM Carlton Samuels <carlton.samuels@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear John: I know you mean well. But I must register my profound and utter disagreement with you here. And, on principle.
At-Large representatives are volunteers. Largely.
I am seethe at this indignity that a measure of my voluntarism connects to me flying somewhere to volunteer my time, my energy, my intellectual capital and yes, my labour, all as public goods.
I would not wish to be so judged. And what is proposed is nothing but an episode of the slave's torment; doing what he thinks would appease his master by providing the hog grease for the leather whip that stipes his own back.
I came to this opposition from bitter experience. It started when I was the only elected LACRALO official. And in a period when travel was dangled as a benefit to volunteers. I couldn't give a tinker's damn since by that time I had already racked up 2 million plus airmiles. And traveling steerage class is not my idea of a fun time.
In that period of time, LACRALO arguably provided the most egregious examples of the ICANN tourist traveler. And I suffered the slings of my northern metropolitan colleagues for vehemently opposing sanctions on the then LACRALO ALAC representatives. [I am ever grateful to Evan for supporting me on principle!] My argument was those persons behaved badly as individuals. I told them so. One has hated me to this day. But inspite of him, I adamantly refused to support travel sanctions against them. That action reinforces that rather louche idea that travel is a benefit rather than the tool that it is to get a job done. And to hypothecate the tool as security for work to be done seems immoral to me.
Value is assigned my time and intellectual capital by others; I sell them for fee. I got home less than 2 hours ago from Suriname. Most in this thread would likely not even know where that is. it is a hump to get to. And, somebody paid me for that.
As a volunteer, my time, intellectual capital and my own coin have been placed in trust and in the service of the At-Large. An airplane ticket in steerage does not begin to compensate me as volunteer. It is no benefit to me or for me. It is rude and crude to suggest, must less legislate, that it is.
My position has not changed in these many years because the same response offends reason and conscience. It is for the At-Large constituents to pick representatives. And this seemingly Pavlovian response proffered is and remains a bad policy idea. It is inimical to the spirit of volutarism - real voluntarism! - that premises the At-Large engagement.
Best, -Carlton
============================== *Carlton A Samuels*
*Mobile: 876-818-1799Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* =============================
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 9:16 AM John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> wrote:
I would like us all to consider consequences for ATLASIII participants who travel but do not participate (excepting reasons of illness etc). This is a serious, professional responsibility and should be treated as such.
For a start, I would suggest that participants who fail to participate should be ineligible for funding and elections for 3 years.
I look forward to conversation on this topic leading to action by the ALAC.
Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
-- Greg Shatan greg@isoc-ny.org President, ISOC-NY *"The Internet is for everyone"*
Concur On Tue, Jul 9, 2019, 5:09 PM Greg Shatan <greg@isoc-ny.org> wrote:
I have no problem with volunteers giving as much or as little of their time as they can. This is not about judging the measure of one’s participation. Every bit helps.
Time is a limited resource. So is travel funding. Both should be valued. Neither should be wasted.
For a person to take money intended to bring a person to a place to do a thing, and then not doing that thing to the best of their ability is a selfish squandering of resources. And it is likely to deny the opportunity to another volunteer who can better use that resource.
I agree that travel funding is (as Carlton says) “a tool to get the job done.” Taking the funding and then not using it fully to get the job done is like taking a bag of hammers and throwing them in the river. Why give that person more hammers?
This is not about hypothecation or compensation. This is about waste.
We don’t need to have draconian or arbitrary punishments. We do have to stop wasting our resources — whether it is time, funding or reputation. If there is a good faith explanation why someone takes money to bring them to Atlas III and then misses most of the sessions, we should hear it (real life and job disasters can come up at any time).
If a volunteer can’t commit fully to participating in Atlas III (or any other thing), that is perfectly fine. Just don’t take the money intended to support a limited number of people in that participation.
Greg
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 5:30 PM John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> wrote:
People who choose to take offense at accountability and responsibility (even as a volunteer), choose to be offended.
Please note that I believe that while I may have initially referenced travel funding, I meant to include all funding and ineligibility for elected positions to be fair. If we cannot rely on a volunteer on a single dedicated occasion, it is foolish to rely on such an individual in other circumstances, volunteer or not.
We disagree.
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019, 4:15 PM Carlton Samuels <carlton.samuels@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear John: I know you mean well. But I must register my profound and utter disagreement with you here. And, on principle.
At-Large representatives are volunteers. Largely.
I am seethe at this indignity that a measure of my voluntarism connects to me flying somewhere to volunteer my time, my energy, my intellectual capital and yes, my labour, all as public goods.
I would not wish to be so judged. And what is proposed is nothing but an episode of the slave's torment; doing what he thinks would appease his master by providing the hog grease for the leather whip that stipes his own back.
I came to this opposition from bitter experience. It started when I was the only elected LACRALO official. And in a period when travel was dangled as a benefit to volunteers. I couldn't give a tinker's damn since by that time I had already racked up 2 million plus airmiles. And traveling steerage class is not my idea of a fun time.
In that period of time, LACRALO arguably provided the most egregious examples of the ICANN tourist traveler. And I suffered the slings of my northern metropolitan colleagues for vehemently opposing sanctions on the then LACRALO ALAC representatives. [I am ever grateful to Evan for supporting me on principle!] My argument was those persons behaved badly as individuals. I told them so. One has hated me to this day. But inspite of him, I adamantly refused to support travel sanctions against them. That action reinforces that rather louche idea that travel is a benefit rather than the tool that it is to get a job done. And to hypothecate the tool as security for work to be done seems immoral to me.
Value is assigned my time and intellectual capital by others; I sell them for fee. I got home less than 2 hours ago from Suriname. Most in this thread would likely not even know where that is. it is a hump to get to. And, somebody paid me for that.
As a volunteer, my time, intellectual capital and my own coin have been placed in trust and in the service of the At-Large. An airplane ticket in steerage does not begin to compensate me as volunteer. It is no benefit to me or for me. It is rude and crude to suggest, must less legislate, that it is.
My position has not changed in these many years because the same response offends reason and conscience. It is for the At-Large constituents to pick representatives. And this seemingly Pavlovian response proffered is and remains a bad policy idea. It is inimical to the spirit of volutarism - real voluntarism! - that premises the At-Large engagement.
Best, -Carlton
============================== *Carlton A Samuels*
*Mobile: 876-818-1799Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* =============================
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 9:16 AM John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> wrote:
I would like us all to consider consequences for ATLASIII participants who travel but do not participate (excepting reasons of illness etc). This is a serious, professional responsibility and should be treated as such.
For a start, I would suggest that participants who fail to participate should be ineligible for funding and elections for 3 years.
I look forward to conversation on this topic leading to action by the ALAC.
Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
-- Greg Shatan greg@isoc-ny.org President, ISOC-NY *"The Internet is for everyone"*
I totally agree with Gregs submission. in addition, one applies for travel support without any coercion, its only prudent that one meets their obligation considering that their are many others willing to attend but weren't successful enough. I recall the the time of the budget approval for the fiscal year 2019, travel support funds for fellows were being cut and one of the main issues picked up during the discussions was the issue of tourist fellows, this could affect this program too. all I can suggest is that the participants be required to attend all Atlass III sessions as a bare meeting, since their attendance at the meeting is to the interest of Atlass II hence the travel support. measures to ensure that the sessions have been attended should also be in place Regards Esther Patricia On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 1:09 AM Greg Shatan <greg@isoc-ny.org> wrote:
I have no problem with volunteers giving as much or as little of their time as they can. This is not about judging the measure of one’s participation. Every bit helps.
Time is a limited resource. So is travel funding. Both should be valued. Neither should be wasted.
For a person to take money intended to bring a person to a place to do a thing, and then not doing that thing to the best of their ability is a selfish squandering of resources. And it is likely to deny the opportunity to another volunteer who can better use that resource.
I agree that travel funding is (as Carlton says) “a tool to get the job done.” Taking the funding and then not using it fully to get the job done is like taking a bag of hammers and throwing them in the river. Why give that person more hammers?
This is not about hypothecation or compensation. This is about waste.
We don’t need to have draconian or arbitrary punishments. We do have to stop wasting our resources — whether it is time, funding or reputation. If there is a good faith explanation why someone takes money to bring them to Atlas III and then misses most of the sessions, we should hear it (real life and job disasters can come up at any time).
If a volunteer can’t commit fully to participating in Atlas III (or any other thing), that is perfectly fine. Just don’t take the money intended to support a limited number of people in that participation.
Greg
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 5:30 PM John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> wrote:
People who choose to take offense at accountability and responsibility (even as a volunteer), choose to be offended.
Please note that I believe that while I may have initially referenced travel funding, I meant to include all funding and ineligibility for elected positions to be fair. If we cannot rely on a volunteer on a single dedicated occasion, it is foolish to rely on such an individual in other circumstances, volunteer or not.
We disagree.
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019, 4:15 PM Carlton Samuels <carlton.samuels@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear John: I know you mean well. But I must register my profound and utter disagreement with you here. And, on principle.
At-Large representatives are volunteers. Largely.
I am seethe at this indignity that a measure of my voluntarism connects to me flying somewhere to volunteer my time, my energy, my intellectual capital and yes, my labour, all as public goods.
I would not wish to be so judged. And what is proposed is nothing but an episode of the slave's torment; doing what he thinks would appease his master by providing the hog grease for the leather whip that stipes his own back.
I came to this opposition from bitter experience. It started when I was the only elected LACRALO official. And in a period when travel was dangled as a benefit to volunteers. I couldn't give a tinker's damn since by that time I had already racked up 2 million plus airmiles. And traveling steerage class is not my idea of a fun time.
In that period of time, LACRALO arguably provided the most egregious examples of the ICANN tourist traveler. And I suffered the slings of my northern metropolitan colleagues for vehemently opposing sanctions on the then LACRALO ALAC representatives. [I am ever grateful to Evan for supporting me on principle!] My argument was those persons behaved badly as individuals. I told them so. One has hated me to this day. But inspite of him, I adamantly refused to support travel sanctions against them. That action reinforces that rather louche idea that travel is a benefit rather than the tool that it is to get a job done. And to hypothecate the tool as security for work to be done seems immoral to me.
Value is assigned my time and intellectual capital by others; I sell them for fee. I got home less than 2 hours ago from Suriname. Most in this thread would likely not even know where that is. it is a hump to get to. And, somebody paid me for that.
As a volunteer, my time, intellectual capital and my own coin have been placed in trust and in the service of the At-Large. An airplane ticket in steerage does not begin to compensate me as volunteer. It is no benefit to me or for me. It is rude and crude to suggest, must less legislate, that it is.
My position has not changed in these many years because the same response offends reason and conscience. It is for the At-Large constituents to pick representatives. And this seemingly Pavlovian response proffered is and remains a bad policy idea. It is inimical to the spirit of volutarism - real voluntarism! - that premises the At-Large engagement.
Best, -Carlton
============================== *Carlton A Samuels*
*Mobile: 876-818-1799Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* =============================
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 9:16 AM John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> wrote:
I would like us all to consider consequences for ATLASIII participants who travel but do not participate (excepting reasons of illness etc). This is a serious, professional responsibility and should be treated as such.
For a start, I would suggest that participants who fail to participate should be ineligible for funding and elections for 3 years.
I look forward to conversation on this topic leading to action by the ALAC.
Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
-- Greg Shatan greg@isoc-ny.org President, ISOC-NY *"The Internet is for everyone"* _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Hi Carlton. As usual, we agree on some things and we disagree on other. I fully support your view that travel, in particular when tickets are provided at the lowest possible cost - which implies also the lowest level of comfort and service - is not a benefit but "the tool that it is to get a job done”. Where we disagree is what to do if and when the job is not done. IMHO, ALAC does not have just the option, but the duty, to analyse whether the limited funds should be allocated in a different way to maximise the result. That is, as you correctly put, "to get a job done”. Incidentally, if ALAC does not monitor the fund allocation and show that there is no waste, ICANN will do. And I personally don’t like at all this outcome. But since I am well-known for making examples that are a bit extreme, and sometimes drive people mad, please allow me to be up to my reputation and mention this case. These days in Italy there are a couple of cases of public administrations, including a public hospital, where employees have been caught being repeatedly absent from work while colleagues were clocking them in and out. Am I the only one who sees similarities? Cheers, Roberto On 09.07.2019, at 23:14, Carlton Samuels <carlton.samuels@gmail.com<mailto:carlton.samuels@gmail.com>> wrote: Dear John: I know you mean well. But I must register my profound and utter disagreement with you here. And, on principle. At-Large representatives are volunteers. Largely. I am seethe at this indignity that a measure of my voluntarism connects to me flying somewhere to volunteer my time, my energy, my intellectual capital and yes, my labour, all as public goods. I would not wish to be so judged. And what is proposed is nothing but an episode of the slave's torment; doing what he thinks would appease his master by providing the hog grease for the leather whip that stipes his own back. I came to this opposition from bitter experience. It started when I was the only elected LACRALO official. And in a period when travel was dangled as a benefit to volunteers. I couldn't give a tinker's damn since by that time I had already racked up 2 million plus airmiles. And traveling steerage class is not my idea of a fun time. In that period of time, LACRALO arguably provided the most egregious examples of the ICANN tourist traveler. And I suffered the slings of my northern metropolitan colleagues for vehemently opposing sanctions on the then LACRALO ALAC representatives. [I am ever grateful to Evan for supporting me on principle!] My argument was those persons behaved badly as individuals. I told them so. One has hated me to this day. But inspite of him, I adamantly refused to support travel sanctions against them. That action reinforces that rather louche idea that travel is a benefit rather than the tool that it is to get a job done. And to hypothecate the tool as security for work to be done seems immoral to me. Value is assigned my time and intellectual capital by others; I sell them for fee. I got home less than 2 hours ago from Suriname. Most in this thread would likely not even know where that is. it is a hump to get to. And, somebody paid me for that. As a volunteer, my time, intellectual capital and my own coin have been placed in trust and in the service of the At-Large. An airplane ticket in steerage does not begin to compensate me as volunteer. It is no benefit to me or for me. It is rude and crude to suggest, must less legislate, that it is. My position has not changed in these many years because the same response offends reason and conscience. It is for the At-Large constituents to pick representatives. And this seemingly Pavlovian response proffered is and remains a bad policy idea. It is inimical to the spirit of volutarism - real voluntarism! - that premises the At-Large engagement. Best, -Carlton ============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround ============================= On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 9:16 AM John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com<mailto:jlaprise@gmail.com>> wrote: I would like us all to consider consequences for ATLASIII participants who travel but do not participate (excepting reasons of illness etc). This is a serious, professional responsibility and should be treated as such. For a start, I would suggest that participants who fail to participate should be ineligible for funding and elections for 3 years. I look forward to conversation on this topic leading to action by the ALAC. Sent from my Pixel 3XL John Laprise, Ph.D. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org<mailto:At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org<http://atlarge.icann.org/> _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org<mailto:At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Hi Roberto: Funny enough, we are closer to total agreement than you imagine. You see, your second paragraph got to the heart of the issue. What to do when the job is not done? My response is to tell the same persons to their face that they did not contribute much. And, message the folks who elect them as representative as much. It's like electing a common fool for president and we blame the fool and not the voters who pulled the lever for the fool. In my corner of empire we tend to elect crooks, never fools. So we know what is our problem. I'm suggesting we can fix those problems without dangling travel or other funding as benefits to be removed as punishment. Especially if it devalues your efforts and mine. I have seen volunteers struggle to assimilate and articulate a position on an issue. I have seen so-called tourist travelers mature and make useful contributions. It is a crap shoot. So, I want to reinforce the fact that not everybody is interested in every topic the At-Large gets all bothered about. Indeed, I have seen a few that IMHO, isn't worth a bucket of warm spit to the end user that we allegedly represent in names and numbers policy matters. Not everybody need be interested in every topic to be a volunteer. Whosoever will may come. And, we can help them find their way in....or out. Best Carlton On Tue, 9 Jul 2019, 5:47 pm Roberto Gaetano, <roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hi Carlton. As usual, we agree on some things and we disagree on other. I fully support your view that travel, in particular when tickets are provided at the lowest possible cost - which implies also the lowest level of comfort and service - is not a benefit but "the tool that it is to get a job done”. Where we disagree is what to do if and when the job is not done. IMHO, ALAC does not have just the option, but the duty, to analyse whether the limited funds should be allocated in a different way to maximise the result. That is, as you correctly put, "to get a job done”. Incidentally, if ALAC does not monitor the fund allocation and show that there is no waste, ICANN will do. And I personally don’t like at all this outcome. But since I am well-known for making examples that are a bit extreme, and sometimes drive people mad, please allow me to be up to my reputation and mention this case. These days in Italy there are a couple of cases of public administrations, including a public hospital, where employees have been caught being repeatedly absent from work while colleagues were clocking them in and out. Am I the only one who sees similarities? Cheers, Roberto
On 09.07.2019, at 23:14, Carlton Samuels <carlton.samuels@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear John: I know you mean well. But I must register my profound and utter disagreement with you here. And, on principle.
At-Large representatives are volunteers. Largely.
I am seethe at this indignity that a measure of my voluntarism connects to me flying somewhere to volunteer my time, my energy, my intellectual capital and yes, my labour, all as public goods.
I would not wish to be so judged. And what is proposed is nothing but an episode of the slave's torment; doing what he thinks would appease his master by providing the hog grease for the leather whip that stipes his own back.
I came to this opposition from bitter experience. It started when I was the only elected LACRALO official. And in a period when travel was dangled as a benefit to volunteers. I couldn't give a tinker's damn since by that time I had already racked up 2 million plus airmiles. And traveling steerage class is not my idea of a fun time.
In that period of time, LACRALO arguably provided the most egregious examples of the ICANN tourist traveler. And I suffered the slings of my northern metropolitan colleagues for vehemently opposing sanctions on the then LACRALO ALAC representatives. [I am ever grateful to Evan for supporting me on principle!] My argument was those persons behaved badly as individuals. I told them so. One has hated me to this day. But inspite of him, I adamantly refused to support travel sanctions against them. That action reinforces that rather louche idea that travel is a benefit rather than the tool that it is to get a job done. And to hypothecate the tool as security for work to be done seems immoral to me.
Value is assigned my time and intellectual capital by others; I sell them for fee. I got home less than 2 hours ago from Suriname. Most in this thread would likely not even know where that is. it is a hump to get to. And, somebody paid me for that.
As a volunteer, my time, intellectual capital and my own coin have been placed in trust and in the service of the At-Large. An airplane ticket in steerage does not begin to compensate me as volunteer. It is no benefit to me or for me. It is rude and crude to suggest, must less legislate, that it is.
My position has not changed in these many years because the same response offends reason and conscience. It is for the At-Large constituents to pick representatives. And this seemingly Pavlovian response proffered is and remains a bad policy idea. It is inimical to the spirit of volutarism - real voluntarism! - that premises the At-Large engagement.
Best, -Carlton
============================== *Carlton A Samuels*
*Mobile: 876-818-1799 Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* =============================
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 9:16 AM John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> wrote:
I would like us all to consider consequences for ATLASIII participants who travel but do not participate (excepting reasons of illness etc). This is a serious, professional responsibility and should be treated as such.
For a start, I would suggest that participants who fail to participate should be ineligible for funding and elections for 3 years.
I look forward to conversation on this topic leading to action by the ALAC.
Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
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_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
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you are right. everyone who travels must really participate and contribute to the activities. In my humble opinion B.Regards, Cedric KINANGA cedrickinanga@gmail.com ISOC DRCongo Chapter Le mar. 9 juil. 2019 à 15:16, John Laprise <jlaprise@gmail.com> a écrit :
I would like us all to consider consequences for ATLASIII participants who travel but do not participate (excepting reasons of illness etc). This is a serious, professional responsibility and should be treated as such.
For a start, I would suggest that participants who fail to participate should be ineligible for funding and elections for 3 years.
I look forward to conversation on this topic leading to action by the ALAC.
Sent from my Pixel 3XL
John Laprise, Ph.D. _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
participants (24)
-
Alan Levin -
Alberto Soto -
Alfredo Calderon -
Ali Almeshal -
Carlton Samuels -
CEDRIC KINANGA -
Fatimata Seye Sylla -
Greg Shatan -
h.raiche＠internode.on.net -
Humberto Carrasco -
Jacqueline Morris -
Johan Helsingius -
John Laprise -
Nadira Alaraj -
Nkemdilim Nweke -
Patricia Akello -
Remmy Nweke -
Roberto Gaetano -
Sergio Salinas Porto -
Seun Ojedeji -
sivasubramanian muthusamy -
Sonigitu Ekpe -
sylvia＠prontocl.com.br -
Vanda Scartezini