On techies versus politicians
From a Facebook post by Andrea Glorioso (unedited):
*The problem with engineer-like folks trying to do politics is that most of them don't understand that emotions are often more powerful than facts, and that they are simply not as relevant for the the person they are debating with, or as powerful in the grand scheme of things, as they think.If I had a dime for every "techie" who won the battle of showing he knew more than his counterpart, just to lose the war of actually getting the long-term result s/he wanted, I'd be reasonably well-off (some techies do understand politics - some.)* -- Evan Leibovitch Geneva, CH Em: evan at telly dot org Sk: evanleibovitch Tw: el56
On September 15, 2016 at 13:30 evan@telly.org (Evan Leibovitch) wrote:
From a Facebook post by Andrea Glorioso (unedited):
The problem with engineer-like folks trying to do politics is that most of them don't understand that emotions are often more powerful than facts, and that they are simply not as relevant for the the person they are debating with, or as powerful in the grand scheme of things, as they think.
If I had a dime for every "techie" who won the battle of showing he knew more than his counterpart, just to lose the war of actually getting the long-term result s/he wanted, I'd be reasonably well-off (some techies do understand politics - some.)
This borders on offensive and self-aggrandizing stereotyping. One doesn't have to spend a lot of time at ICANN meetings etc to pick up on the anti-old-guard/techie sentiments by the non-techie policy wonks, lawyers, etc. It's not shocking they find people who might actually understand how a lot of this works threatening and want to minimize their participation. At any meeting or forum they may get publicly humbled in a sentence or two amounting to "that's impossible, it doesn't even work that way, not at all". They don't get that scrutiny from their fellow non-technical wonks who tend to agree that making PI exactly 3 would be easier to remember (who could argue? common sense!), do we have a second? All in favor? When someone dismisses the competence of a group with as broad a term as "engineer-like" that person should be shut down. This type of thinking marks one as a dinosaur. The world is changing around them, fast. The technical tide is rising and any separation of technical and political is fading. No doubt it is scary to those who can't keep up and their inclination is to wish it away by discrediting those who do understand it. Increasingly we live in a world where: 1. Business and trade live on blockchains and increasingly "automatic contracts" and all that implies. And often implemented by neural nets. 2. Technology has democratized and globalized crime and espionage to such an extent that we rely on technology not policy to combat it. No one disagrees that crimes are involved, or only rarely. 3. Internet protocol specs have human rights implications and need to be evaluated in that light. There's an entire IETF research group devoted to this, I follow it. 4. Issues such as "net neutrality" get so tangled in the technical realities of what that means that most policy makers speak utter nonsense about it trying desparately to make it fit into their mental models. 5. Individual empowerment on the internet for billions of people revolves around not so much what everyone has a "right" to do or not, that's of some importance of course, but rather how one, specifically, one might achieve that beyond mouthing a few audience-pleasing platitudes. 6. Nation-state censorship and cyber-oppression can be enabled or thwarted not only by policy which often no one has much say over but a myriad of technologies such as VPNs, alternate infrastructures (e.g., alt roots), and encryption techniques. The above comment mirrors broad swaths on why women shouldn't be given the vote (too emotional!) or similar. -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@TheWorld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo*
Therefore we must work in a multi-stakeholder model, where insurance will find a multidisciplinary team to work. Kind regards Alberto -----Mensaje original----- De: at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] En nombre de bzs@theworld.com Enviado el: jueves, 15 de septiembre de 2016 03:04 p.m. Para: Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org> CC: ICANN At-Large list <at-large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Asunto: Re: [At-Large] On techies versus politicians On September 15, 2016 at 13:30 evan@telly.org (Evan Leibovitch) wrote:
From a Facebook post by Andrea Glorioso (unedited):
The problem with engineer-like folks trying to do politics is that most of them don't understand that emotions are often more powerful than facts, and that they are simply not as relevant for the the person they are debating with, or as powerful in the grand scheme of things, as they think.
If I had a dime for every "techie" who won the battle of showing he knew more than his counterpart, just to lose the war of actually getting the long-term result s/he wanted, I'd be reasonably well-off (some techies do understand politics - some.)
This borders on offensive and self-aggrandizing stereotyping. One doesn't have to spend a lot of time at ICANN meetings etc to pick up on the anti-old-guard/techie sentiments by the non-techie policy wonks, lawyers, etc. It's not shocking they find people who might actually understand how a lot of this works threatening and want to minimize their participation. At any meeting or forum they may get publicly humbled in a sentence or two amounting to "that's impossible, it doesn't even work that way, not at all". They don't get that scrutiny from their fellow non-technical wonks who tend to agree that making PI exactly 3 would be easier to remember (who could argue? common sense!), do we have a second? All in favor? When someone dismisses the competence of a group with as broad a term as "engineer-like" that person should be shut down. This type of thinking marks one as a dinosaur. The world is changing around them, fast. The technical tide is rising and any separation of technical and political is fading. No doubt it is scary to those who can't keep up and their inclination is to wish it away by discrediting those who do understand it. Increasingly we live in a world where: 1. Business and trade live on blockchains and increasingly "automatic contracts" and all that implies. And often implemented by neural nets. 2. Technology has democratized and globalized crime and espionage to such an extent that we rely on technology not policy to combat it. No one disagrees that crimes are involved, or only rarely. 3. Internet protocol specs have human rights implications and need to be evaluated in that light. There's an entire IETF research group devoted to this, I follow it. 4. Issues such as "net neutrality" get so tangled in the technical realities of what that means that most policy makers speak utter nonsense about it trying desparately to make it fit into their mental models. 5. Individual empowerment on the internet for billions of people revolves around not so much what everyone has a "right" to do or not, that's of some importance of course, but rather how one, specifically, one might achieve that beyond mouthing a few audience-pleasing platitudes. 6. Nation-state censorship and cyber-oppression can be enabled or thwarted not only by policy which often no one has much say over but a myriad of technologies such as VPNs, alternate infrastructures (e.g., alt roots), and encryption techniques. The above comment mirrors broad swaths on why women shouldn't be given the vote (too emotional!) or similar. -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@TheWorld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo* _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org --- El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico en busca de virus. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Let me disagree. I believe that Glorioso's statement is insulting for politicians, not for techies. He asserts basically that politicians do not pick what factually would be the best solution, because they are sidetracked by sentiments :) (actually, my opinion is that they are sidetracked by their own hidden agendas) R
-----Messaggio originale----- Da: at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:at-large- bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] Per conto di bzs@theworld.com Inviato: giovedì 15 settembre 2016 20:04 A: Evan Leibovitch Cc: ICANN At-Large list Oggetto: Re: [At-Large] On techies versus politicians
On September 15, 2016 at 13:30 evan@telly.org<mailto:evan@telly.org> (Evan Leibovitch) wrote:
From a Facebook post by Andrea Glorioso (unedited):
The problem with engineer-like folks trying to do politics is that most of them don't understand that emotions are often more powerful than facts, and that they are simply not as relevant for the the person they are debating with, or as powerful in the grand scheme of things, as they think.
If I had a dime for every "techie" who won the battle of showing he knew more than his counterpart, just to lose the war of actually getting the long-term result s/he wanted, I'd be reasonably well-off (some techies do understand politics - some.)
This borders on offensive and self-aggrandizing stereotyping.
One doesn't have to spend a lot of time at ICANN meetings etc to pick up on the anti-old-guard/techie sentiments by the non-techie policy wonks, lawyers, etc.
It's not shocking they find people who might actually understand how a lot of this works threatening and want to minimize their participation. At any meeting or forum they may get publicly humbled in a sentence or two amounting to "that's impossible, it doesn't even work that way, not at all".
They don't get that scrutiny from their fellow non-technical wonks who tend to agree that making PI exactly 3 would be easier to remember (who could argue? common sense!), do we have a second? All in favor?
When someone dismisses the competence of a group with as broad a term as "engineer-like" that person should be shut down.
This type of thinking marks one as a dinosaur.
The world is changing around them, fast. The technical tide is rising and any separation of technical and political is fading.
No doubt it is scary to those who can't keep up and their inclination is to wish it away by discrediting those who do understand it.
Increasingly we live in a world where:
1. Business and trade live on blockchains and increasingly "automatic contracts" and all that implies. And often implemented by neural nets.
2. Technology has democratized and globalized crime and espionage to such an extent that we rely on technology not policy to combat it. No one disagrees that crimes are involved, or only rarely.
3. Internet protocol specs have human rights implications and need to be evaluated in that light. There's an entire IETF research group devoted to this, I follow it.
4. Issues such as "net neutrality" get so tangled in the technical realities of what that means that most policy makers speak utter nonsense about it trying desparately to make it fit into their mental models.
5. Individual empowerment on the internet for billions of people revolves around not so much what everyone has a "right" to do or not, that's of some importance of course, but rather how one, specifically, one might achieve that beyond mouthing a few audience-pleasing platitudes.
6. Nation-state censorship and cyber-oppression can be enabled or thwarted not only by policy which often no one has much say over but a myriad of technologies such as VPNs, alternate infrastructures (e.g., alt roots), and encryption techniques.
The above comment mirrors broad swaths on why women shouldn't be given the vote (too emotional!) or similar.
-- -Barry Shein
Software Tool & Die | bzs@TheWorld.com<mailto:bzs@TheWorld.com> | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo* _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org<mailto:At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org
Hi, Andrea Glorioso is an accessible, informed guy who means nothing but well, and is easily misinterpreted esp. on grounds of a single statement. Many of us have had good interactions with him, on subjects of ICANN and Internet governance more generally, over many years. Using the At Large space for lynching him in absentia when the discussion can be held frontally with him in the place where he published his opinion is a low point (unfortunately not the lowest, and the set is large.) To say the least, it is unbecoming. Yours, Alejandro Pisanty - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Facultad de Química UNAM Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico +52-1-5541444475 FROM ABROAD +525541444475 DESDE MÉXICO SMS +525541444475 Blog: http://pisanty.blogspot.com LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn, http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614 Twitter: http://twitter.com/apisanty ---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, http://www.isoc.org . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ________________________________ Desde: at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] en nombre de Roberto Gaetano [roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com] Enviado el: jueves, 15 de septiembre de 2016 16:24 Hasta: bzs@theworld.com; Evan Leibovitch CC: ICANN At-Large list Asunto: [At-Large] R: On techies versus politicians Let me disagree. I believe that Glorioso's statement is insulting for politicians, not for techies. He asserts basically that politicians do not pick what factually would be the best solution, because they are sidetracked by sentiments :) (actually, my opinion is that they are sidetracked by their own hidden agendas) R
-----Messaggio originale----- Da: at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [<UrlBlockedError.aspx>mailto:at-large- bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] Per conto di bzs@theworld.com Inviato: giovedì 15 settembre 2016 20:04 A: Evan Leibovitch Cc: ICANN At-Large list Oggetto: Re: [At-Large] On techies versus politicians
On September 15, 2016 at 13:30 evan@telly.org<mailto:evan@telly.org> (Evan Leibovitch) wrote:
From a Facebook post by Andrea Glorioso (unedited):
The problem with engineer-like folks trying to do politics is that most of them don't understand that emotions are often more powerful than facts, and that they are simply not as relevant for the the person they are debating with, or as powerful in the grand scheme of things, as they think.
If I had a dime for every "techie" who won the battle of showing he knew more than his counterpart, just to lose the war of actually getting the long-term result s/he wanted, I'd be reasonably well-off (some techies do understand politics - some.)
This borders on offensive and self-aggrandizing stereotyping.
One doesn't have to spend a lot of time at ICANN meetings etc to pick up on the anti-old-guard/techie sentiments by the non-techie policy wonks, lawyers, etc.
It's not shocking they find people who might actually understand how a lot of this works threatening and want to minimize their participation. At any meeting or forum they may get publicly humbled in a sentence or two amounting to "that's impossible, it doesn't even work that way, not at all".
They don't get that scrutiny from their fellow non-technical wonks who tend to agree that making PI exactly 3 would be easier to remember (who could argue? common sense!), do we have a second? All in favor?
When someone dismisses the competence of a group with as broad a term as "engineer-like" that person should be shut down.
This type of thinking marks one as a dinosaur.
The world is changing around them, fast. The technical tide is rising and any separation of technical and political is fading.
No doubt it is scary to those who can't keep up and their inclination is to wish it away by discrediting those who do understand it.
Increasingly we live in a world where:
1. Business and trade live on blockchains and increasingly "automatic contracts" and all that implies. And often implemented by neural nets.
2. Technology has democratized and globalized crime and espionage to such an extent that we rely on technology not policy to combat it. No one disagrees that crimes are involved, or only rarely.
3. Internet protocol specs have human rights implications and need to be evaluated in that light. There's an entire IETF research group devoted to this, I follow it.
4. Issues such as "net neutrality" get so tangled in the technical realities of what that means that most policy makers speak utter nonsense about it trying desparately to make it fit into their mental models.
5. Individual empowerment on the internet for billions of people revolves around not so much what everyone has a "right" to do or not, that's of some importance of course, but rather how one, specifically, one might achieve that beyond mouthing a few audience-pleasing platitudes.
6. Nation-state censorship and cyber-oppression can be enabled or thwarted not only by policy which often no one has much say over but a myriad of technologies such as VPNs, alternate infrastructures (e.g., alt roots), and encryption techniques.
The above comment mirrors broad swaths on why women shouldn't be given the vote (too emotional!) or similar.
-- -Barry Shein
Software Tool & Die | bzs@TheWorld.com<mailto:bzs@TheWorld.com> | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo* _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org<mailto:At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org
Alx, Maybe I need to add a few words. I have also met Andrea, and have a very good opinion of him. He, being Italian like me, would have understood that I meant to be funny not offending - I even put a smiley to reinforce the nature of my post. But point taken, I shall be more careful in making statements that can be interpreted in ways that were unintended. Thanks for pointing out. Cheers, R. Da: Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch [mailto:apisan@unam.mx] Inviato: venerdì 16 settembre 2016 01:19 A: Roberto Gaetano; bzs@theworld.com; Evan Leibovitch Cc: ICANN At-Large list Oggetto: RE: [At-Large] R: On techies versus politicians Hi, Andrea Glorioso is an accessible, informed guy who means nothing but well, and is easily misinterpreted esp. on grounds of a single statement. Many of us have had good interactions with him, on subjects of ICANN and Internet governance more generally, over many years. Using the At Large space for lynching him in absentia when the discussion can be held frontally with him in the place where he published his opinion is a low point (unfortunately not the lowest, and the set is large.) To say the least, it is unbecoming. Yours, Alejandro Pisanty - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Facultad de Química UNAM Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico +52-1-5541444475 FROM ABROAD +525541444475 DESDE MÉXICO SMS +525541444475 Blog: http://pisanty.blogspot.com LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn, http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614 Twitter: http://twitter.com/apisanty ---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, http://www.isoc.org . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ________________________________ Desde: at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org<mailto:at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> [at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] en nombre de Roberto Gaetano [roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com] Enviado el: jueves, 15 de septiembre de 2016 16:24 Hasta: bzs@theworld.com<mailto:bzs@theworld.com>; Evan Leibovitch CC: ICANN At-Large list Asunto: [At-Large] R: On techies versus politicians Let me disagree. I believe that Glorioso's statement is insulting for politicians, not for techies. He asserts basically that politicians do not pick what factually would be the best solution, because they are sidetracked by sentiments :) (actually, my opinion is that they are sidetracked by their own hidden agendas) R
-----Messaggio originale----- Da: at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org<mailto:at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> [mailto:at-large- bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org<mailto:bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org>] Per conto di bzs@theworld.com<mailto:bzs@theworld.com> Inviato: giovedì 15 settembre 2016 20:04 A: Evan Leibovitch Cc: ICANN At-Large list Oggetto: Re: [At-Large] On techies versus politicians
On September 15, 2016 at 13:30 evan@telly.org<mailto:evan@telly.org> (Evan Leibovitch) wrote:
From a Facebook post by Andrea Glorioso (unedited):
The problem with engineer-like folks trying to do politics is that most of them don't understand that emotions are often more powerful than facts, and that they are simply not as relevant for the the person they are debating with, or as powerful in the grand scheme of things, as they think.
If I had a dime for every "techie" who won the battle of showing he knew more than his counterpart, just to lose the war of actually getting the long-term result s/he wanted, I'd be reasonably well-off (some techies do understand politics - some.)
This borders on offensive and self-aggrandizing stereotyping.
One doesn't have to spend a lot of time at ICANN meetings etc to pick up on the anti-old-guard/techie sentiments by the non-techie policy wonks, lawyers, etc.
It's not shocking they find people who might actually understand how a lot of this works threatening and want to minimize their participation. At any meeting or forum they may get publicly humbled in a sentence or two amounting to "that's impossible, it doesn't even work that way, not at all".
They don't get that scrutiny from their fellow non-technical wonks who tend to agree that making PI exactly 3 would be easier to remember (who could argue? common sense!), do we have a second? All in favor?
When someone dismisses the competence of a group with as broad a term as "engineer-like" that person should be shut down.
This type of thinking marks one as a dinosaur.
The world is changing around them, fast. The technical tide is rising and any separation of technical and political is fading.
No doubt it is scary to those who can't keep up and their inclination is to wish it away by discrediting those who do understand it.
Increasingly we live in a world where:
1. Business and trade live on blockchains and increasingly "automatic contracts" and all that implies. And often implemented by neural nets.
2. Technology has democratized and globalized crime and espionage to such an extent that we rely on technology not policy to combat it. No one disagrees that crimes are involved, or only rarely.
3. Internet protocol specs have human rights implications and need to be evaluated in that light. There's an entire IETF research group devoted to this, I follow it.
4. Issues such as "net neutrality" get so tangled in the technical realities of what that means that most policy makers speak utter nonsense about it trying desparately to make it fit into their mental models.
5. Individual empowerment on the internet for billions of people revolves around not so much what everyone has a "right" to do or not, that's of some importance of course, but rather how one, specifically, one might achieve that beyond mouthing a few audience-pleasing platitudes.
6. Nation-state censorship and cyber-oppression can be enabled or thwarted not only by policy which often no one has much say over but a myriad of technologies such as VPNs, alternate infrastructures (e.g., alt roots), and encryption techniques.
The above comment mirrors broad swaths on why women shouldn't be given the vote (too emotional!) or similar.
-- -Barry Shein
Software Tool & Die | bzs@TheWorld.com<mailto:bzs@TheWorld.com> | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo* _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org<mailto:At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org
On September 15, 2016 at 21:24 roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com (Roberto Gaetano) wrote:
Let me disagree. I believe that Glorioso's statement is insulting for politicians, not for techies. He asserts basically that politicians do not pick what factually would be the best solution, because they are sidetracked by sentiments J (actually, my opinion is that they are sidetracked by their own hidden agendas)
Roberto: Noted! But what is the use of all this fuel without an occasional flame? -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@TheWorld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo*
I think Adam Smith describe this reality as the prejudices of one’s education. Dr William Tibben Lecturer School of Computing and Information Technology Faculty of Engineering and Information Sciences University of Wollongong Wollongong NSW 2522 Australia T +61 2 4221 3768 W eis.uow.edu.au<http://eis.uow.edu.au> [cid:12847E93-ED35-458D-804C-37B3B602AD91] On 16 Sep 2016, at 1:12 PM, bzs@theworld.com<mailto:bzs@theworld.com> wrote: On September 15, 2016 at 21:24 roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com<mailto:roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com> (Roberto Gaetano) wrote: Let me disagree. I believe that Glorioso's statement is insulting for politicians, not for techies. He asserts basically that politicians do not pick what factually would be the best solution, because they are sidetracked by sentiments J (actually, my opinion is that they are sidetracked by their own hidden agendas) Roberto: Noted! But what is the use of all this fuel without an occasional flame? -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@TheWorld.com<mailto:bzs@theworld.com> | http://www.TheWorld.com<http://www.theworld.com> Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo* _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org<mailto:At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org
participants (7)
-
Alberto Soto -
bzs＠theworld.com -
Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch -
Evan Leibovitch -
Johan Helsingius -
Roberto Gaetano -
William Tibben