Unfortunately, I do not have the benefit of being in Sydney but I support a statement noting that the IRT Report is an important step forward. Thank you to those carrying the workload. David ----- Original Message ----- From: owner-bc-gnso@icann.org <owner-bc-gnso@icann.org> To: bc-gnso@icann.org <bc-gnso@icann.org> Sent: Tue Jun 23 21:49:52 2009 Subject: Re: [bc-gnso] BC statement on IRT NetChoice would support Ayesha's version of the BC consensus: that the IRT report is a positive step forward. Specific concerns (e.g., due process) ought to be submitted individually, as George has done so elegantly. Others agreeing with George can support/expand on that in their own individual submissions. --Steve On 6/24/09 11:28 AM, "Ayesha Hassan" <ayesha.hassan@iccwbo.org> wrote:
I thought the original brief statement reflected the discussion yesterday in the BC and the key is for members to submit their own comments to the consultation. My sense is the statement should be very brief so that members can express their own perspectives directly to the consultation process.
To help reach a statement we can all support, I propose the following:
"The BC recognizes the work and efforts of all those who participated in the IRT. The BC believes that this report is productive step forward in addressing several issues with respect to new gTLDs.
The BC urges its members to post their individual comments on the substance of the report at Public comment space http://www.icann.org/en/announcements/announcement-4-29may09-en.htm"
Regards, Ayesha
On Jun 23, 2009, at 7:24 PM, George Kirikos wrote:
Hello,
We do not support that proposed BC statement on the IRT. We propose an alternative and balanced statement as follows:
----- start proposed statement ------ "The BC appreciates the effort of the IP constituency's work in creating a proposal that would protect trademark holders interests. However, much work remains to be done to ensure that the needs of trademark holders are balanced against the needs of domain registrants for certainty, predictability and due process. The BC looks forward to working with the IP constituency, and other constituencies within the GNSO on an improved version of the IRT's report, one that can achieve consensus support of all stakeholders." ----- end proposed statement ------
As we have stated previously, we have grave concerns about the IRT, and the "answers" provided by the members of the IRT team have been spurious. To give just two concrete examples (there are many more if one reads our prior comments submitted in the official comment periods):
a) No good reason has been provided as to why the IRT proposes that *all* domain names, irregardless of age, should be subject to the URS, especially given that markholders ultimately would want the URS to apply to legacy TLDs such as com/net/org. The URS is an extraordinary procedure that would take down a domain name with short notice (so short that a registrant on vacation may not receive actual notice of a complaint). Such an extraordinary procedure should be targeted only towards the most abusive domain names, one where "time is of the essence." Time is not of the essence if a domain name is 10 years old! The onus should be on markholders to not delay in bringing complaints if there is truly a matter that is "urgent" and requires the URS. We proposed that the URS either apply only to domains younger than a certain age (e.g. 6 months), or that the time to respond to complaints be a function of the age of the domain (e.g. 15 days + the age of the domain in months). Businesses and consumers require certainty and due process, and a system like the URS as proposed that would threaten their legitimate domain name, one that they've owned for years, denies them both certainty and due process.
b) No good reason has been provided as to why the IRT proposes to limit notification to registrants to only 2 emails and 1 letter by post for the URS. Email is unreliable given the amount of spam that exists, and international mail might not be received in time to respond to a complaint, given the slow delivery times of the international postal system. We specifically pointed to opt-in fax as a highly reliable system to notify registrants of complaints, and the IRT provides excuses that leave objective people incredulous. Footnote 30 of the report stated:
"The IRT decided that such requirements would add significant complexity and cost to the system due to time zones and national and local laws regarding faxing and calling."
This is simply astonishing for the IRT to say, given that (a) the faxes are 100% opt-in, and (b) the UDRP has been providing fax notification for over 10 years without issues. The cost to send a 1-page fax notification of a complaint (using email to fax gateways) is on the order of 10 cents, far below the postal delivery stamp fees.
A legitimate URS complaint by a markholder will not be impacted if the registrant receives proper and timely notification (actual notice) by fax. The URS was supposedly intended for "clear cut" cases, and notification shouldn't impact the registrant's ability to defend a "clear cut" case of abuse.
However, illegitimate and frivolous URS complaints with weak claims that hope to win by default due to lack of registrant notification will greatly benefit by lack of fax notification, lack of actual notice. A legitimate registrant will strongly defend their domain name and is hurt by lack of the ability to respond and prepare a defence.
The only logical conclusion is that the IRT has intentionally acted to put the rights of illegitimate and frivolous URS complainants with weak claims ahead of legitimate domain registrants with strong defences, by putting up spurious obstacles to the domain registrants receiving actual notice and due process. This is no surprise given the IP's pro-complainant dominance of the IRT process.
While the IRT members posture in public that their report was a "compromise" I hope it is clear from just the above two cases (and there are more) that it truly was not any compromise, but was an extreme and unbalanced report.
Legitimate domain registrants like my company and others in the BC and other constituencies are prepared to work with the IP constituency to come up with a balanced solution within the GNSO process. But, until such time, the IRT report should continue to draw skepticism within the ICANN community, and be rejected.
Sincerely,
George Kirikos 416-588-0269 http://www.leap.com/
P.S. One can read our early substantial comments on the IRT, indeed with novel approaches (such as the concept of easements), that were ignored by the IRT:
http://forum.icann.org/lists/irt-draft-report/msg00000.html http://forum.icann.org/lists/irt-draft-report/msg00015.html http://forum.icann.org/lists/irt-draft-report/msg00016.html http://forum.icann.org/lists/irt-final-report/msg00000.html
This message and its attachments may contain legally privileged or confidential information. It is intended solely for the named addressee. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message (or responsible for delivery of the message to the addressee), you may not copy or deliver this message or its attachments to anyone. Rather, you should permanently delete this message and its attachments and kindly notify the sender by reply e-mail. Any content of this message and its attachments that does not relate to the official business of News America Incorporated or its subsidiaries must be taken not to have been sent or endorsed by any of them. No representation is made that this email or its attachments are without defect.
Hello, Nokia supports Ayesha's statement. IRT work is a step forward which we really need before going forward in the gTLD process. However, we also understand that further development is needed to address all of the issues. BR, Jarkko Ruuska
-----Original Message----- From: owner-bc-gnso@icann.org [mailto:owner-bc-gnso@icann.org] On Behalf Of ext Fares, David Sent: 24 June, 2009 12:05 To: 'sdelbianco@actonline.org'; 'bc-gnso@icann.org' Subject: Re: [bc-gnso] BC statement on IRT
Unfortunately, I do not have the benefit of being in Sydney but I support a statement noting that the IRT Report is an important step forward.
Thank you to those carrying the workload.
David
----- Original Message ----- From: owner-bc-gnso@icann.org <owner-bc-gnso@icann.org> To: bc-gnso@icann.org <bc-gnso@icann.org> Sent: Tue Jun 23 21:49:52 2009 Subject: Re: [bc-gnso] BC statement on IRT
NetChoice would support Ayesha's version of the BC consensus: that the IRT report is a positive step forward.
Specific concerns (e.g., due process) ought to be submitted individually, as George has done so elegantly. Others agreeing with George can support/expand on that in their own individual submissions. --Steve
On 6/24/09 11:28 AM, "Ayesha Hassan" <ayesha.hassan@iccwbo.org> wrote:
I thought the original brief statement reflected the discussion yesterday in the BC and the key is for members to submit their own comments to the consultation. My sense is the statement
should be very
brief so that members can express their own perspectives directly to the consultation process.
To help reach a statement we can all support, I propose the following:
"The BC recognizes the work and efforts of all those who participated in the IRT. The BC believes that this report is productive step forward in addressing several issues with respect to new gTLDs.
The BC urges its members to post their individual comments on the substance of the report at Public comment space http://www.icann.org/en/announcements/announcement-4-29may09-en.htm"
Regards, Ayesha
On Jun 23, 2009, at 7:24 PM, George Kirikos wrote:
Hello,
We do not support that proposed BC statement on the IRT. We propose an alternative and balanced statement as follows:
----- start proposed statement ------ "The BC appreciates
the effort
of the IP constituency's work in creating a proposal that would protect trademark holders interests. However, much work remains to be done to ensure that the needs of trademark holders are balanced against the needs of domain registrants for certainty, predictability and due process. The BC looks forward to working with the IP constituency, and other constituencies within the GNSO on an improved version of the IRT's report, one that can achieve consensus support of all stakeholders." ----- end proposed statement ------
As we have stated previously, we have grave concerns about the IRT, and the "answers" provided by the members of the IRT team have been spurious. To give just two concrete examples (there are many more if one reads our prior comments submitted in the official comment periods):
a) No good reason has been provided as to why the IRT proposes that *all* domain names, irregardless of age, should be subject to the URS, especially given that markholders ultimately would want the URS to apply to legacy TLDs such as com/net/org. The URS is an extraordinary procedure that would take down a domain name with short notice (so short that a registrant on vacation may not receive actual notice of a complaint). Such an extraordinary procedure should be targeted only towards the most abusive domain names, one where "time is of the essence." Time is not of the essence if a domain name is 10 years old! The onus should be on markholders to not delay in bringing complaints if there is truly a matter that is "urgent" and requires the URS. We proposed that the URS either apply only to domains younger than a certain age (e.g. 6 months), or that the time to respond to complaints be a function of the age of the domain (e.g. 15 days + the age of the domain in months). Businesses and consumers require certainty and due process, and a system like the URS as proposed that would threaten their legitimate domain name, one that they've owned for years, denies them both certainty and due process.
b) No good reason has been provided as to why the IRT proposes to limit notification to registrants to only 2 emails and 1 letter by post for the URS. Email is unreliable given the amount of spam that exists, and international mail might not be received in time to respond to a complaint, given the slow delivery times of the international postal system. We specifically pointed to opt-in fax as a highly reliable system to notify registrants of complaints, and the IRT provides excuses that leave objective people incredulous. Footnote 30 of the report stated:
"The IRT decided that such requirements would add significant complexity and cost to the system due to time zones and national and local laws regarding faxing and calling."
This is simply astonishing for the IRT to say, given that (a) the faxes are 100% opt-in, and (b) the UDRP has been providing fax notification for over 10 years without issues. The cost to send a 1-page fax notification of a complaint (using email to fax gateways) is on the order of 10 cents, far below the postal delivery stamp fees.
A legitimate URS complaint by a markholder will not be impacted if the registrant receives proper and timely notification (actual notice) by fax. The URS was supposedly intended for "clear cut" cases, and notification shouldn't impact the registrant's ability to defend a "clear cut" case of abuse.
However, illegitimate and frivolous URS complaints with weak claims that hope to win by default due to lack of registrant notification will greatly benefit by lack of fax notification, lack of actual notice. A legitimate registrant will strongly defend their domain name and is hurt by lack of the ability to respond and prepare a defence.
The only logical conclusion is that the IRT has intentionally acted to put the rights of illegitimate and frivolous URS complainants with weak claims ahead of legitimate domain registrants with strong defences, by putting up spurious obstacles to the domain registrants receiving actual notice and due process. This is no surprise given the IP's pro-complainant dominance of the IRT process.
While the IRT members posture in public that their report was a "compromise" I hope it is clear from just the above two cases (and there are more) that it truly was not any compromise, but was an extreme and unbalanced report.
Legitimate domain registrants like my company and others in the BC and other constituencies are prepared to work with the IP constituency to come up with a balanced solution within the GNSO process. But, until such time, the IRT report should continue to draw skepticism within the ICANN community, and be rejected.
Sincerely,
George Kirikos 416-588-0269 http://www.leap.com/
P.S. One can read our early substantial comments on the IRT, indeed with novel approaches (such as the concept of easements), that were ignored by the IRT:
http://forum.icann.org/lists/irt-draft-report/msg00000.html http://forum.icann.org/lists/irt-draft-report/msg00015.html http://forum.icann.org/lists/irt-draft-report/msg00016.html http://forum.icann.org/lists/irt-final-report/msg00000.html
This message and its attachments may contain legally privileged or confidential information. It is intended solely for the named addressee. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message (or responsible for delivery of the message to the addressee), you may not copy or deliver this message or its attachments to anyone. Rather, you should permanently delete this message and its attachments and kindly notify the sender by reply e-mail. Any content of this message and its attachments that does not relate to the official business of News America Incorporated or its subsidiaries must be taken not to have been sent or endorsed by any of them. No representation is made that this email or its attachments are without defect.
DNDRC supports Ayesha's draft. Zahid Jamil Barrister-at-law Jamil & Jamil Barristers-at-law 219-221 Central Hotel Annexe Merewether Road, Karachi. Pakistan Cell: +923008238230 Tel: +92 21 5680760 / 5685276 / 5655025 Fax: +92 21 5655026 [http://www.jamilandjamil.com/] www.jamilandjamil.com Notice / Disclaimer This message contains confidential information and its contents are being communicated only for the intended recipients . If you are not the intended recipient you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this message by mistake and delete it from your system. The contents above may contain/are the intellectual property of Jamil & Jamil, Barristers-at-Law, and constitute privileged information protected by attorney client privilege. The reproduction, publication, use, amendment, modification of any kind whatsoever of any part or parts (including photocopying or storing it in any medium by electronic means whether or not transiently or incidentally or some other use of this communication) without prior written permission and consent of Jamil & Jamil is prohibited. -----Original Message----- From: jarkko.ruuska@nokia.com Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 10:46pm To: bc-gnso@icann.org Subject: RE: [bc-gnso] BC statement on IRT Hello, Nokia supports Ayesha's statement. IRT work is a step forward which we really need before going forward in the gTLD process. However, we also understand that further development is needed to address all of the issues. BR, Jarkko Ruuska
-----Original Message----- From: owner-bc-gnso@icann.org [mailto:owner-bc-gnso@icann.org] On Behalf Of ext Fares, David Sent: 24 June, 2009 12:05 To: 'sdelbianco@actonline.org'; 'bc-gnso@icann.org' Subject: Re: [bc-gnso] BC statement on IRT
Unfortunately, I do not have the benefit of being in Sydney but I support a statement noting that the IRT Report is an important step forward.
Thank you to those carrying the workload.
David
----- Original Message ----- From: owner-bc-gnso@icann.org <owner-bc-gnso@icann.org> To: bc-gnso@icann.org <bc-gnso@icann.org> Sent: Tue Jun 23 21:49:52 2009 Subject: Re: [bc-gnso] BC statement on IRT
NetChoice would support Ayesha's version of the BC consensus: that the IRT report is a positive step forward.
Specific concerns (e.g., due process) ought to be submitted individually, as George has done so elegantly. Others agreeing with George can support/expand on that in their own individual submissions. --Steve
On 6/24/09 11:28 AM, "Ayesha Hassan" <ayesha.hassan@iccwbo.org> wrote:
I thought the original brief statement reflected the discussion yesterday in the BC and the key is for members to submit their own comments to the consultation. My sense is the statement
should be very
brief so that members can express their own perspectives directly to the consultation process.
To help reach a statement we can all support, I propose the following:
"The BC recognizes the work and efforts of all those who participated in the IRT. The BC believes that this report is productive step forward in addressing several issues with respect to new gTLDs.
The BC urges its members to post their individual comments on the substance of the report at Public comment space http://www.icann.org/en/announcements/announcement-4-29may09-en.htm"
Regards, Ayesha
On Jun 23, 2009, at 7:24 PM, George Kirikos wrote:
Hello,
We do not support that proposed BC statement on the IRT. We propose an alternative and balanced statement as follows:
----- start proposed statement ------ "The BC appreciates
the effort
of the IP constituency's work in creating a proposal that would protect trademark holders interests. However, much work remains to be done to ensure that the needs of trademark holders are balanced against the needs of domain registrants for certainty, predictability and due process. The BC looks forward to working with the IP constituency, and other constituencies within the GNSO on an improved version of the IRT's report, one that can achieve consensus support of all stakeholders." ----- end proposed statement ------
As we have stated previously, we have grave concerns about the IRT, and the "answers" provided by the members of the IRT team have been spurious. To give just two concrete examples (there are many more if one reads our prior comments submitted in the official comment periods):
a) No good reason has been provided as to why the IRT proposes that *all* domain names, irregardless of age, should be subject to the URS, especially given that markholders ultimately would want the URS to apply to legacy TLDs such as com/net/org. The URS is an extraordinary procedure that would take down a domain name with short notice (so short that a registrant on vacation may not receive actual notice of a complaint). Such an extraordinary procedure should be targeted only towards the most abusive domain names, one where "time is of the essence." Time is not of the essence if a domain name is 10 years old! The onus should be on markholders to not delay in bringing complaints if there is truly a matter that is "urgent" and requires the URS. We proposed that the URS either apply only to domains younger than a certain age (e.g. 6 months), or that the time to respond to complaints be a function of the age of the domain (e.g. 15 days + the age of the domain in months). Businesses and consumers require certainty and due process, and a system like the URS as proposed that would threaten their legitimate domain name, one that they've owned for years, denies them both certainty and due process.
b) No good reason has been provided as to why the IRT proposes to limit notification to registrants to only 2 emails and 1 letter by post for the URS. Email is unreliable given the amount of spam that exists, and international mail might not be received in time to respond to a complaint, given the slow delivery times of the international postal system. We specifically pointed to opt-in fax as a highly reliable system to notify registrants of complaints, and the IRT provides excuses that leave objective people incredulous. Footnote 30 of the report stated:
"The IRT decided that such requirements would add significant complexity and cost to the system due to time zones and national and local laws regarding faxing and calling."
This is simply astonishing for the IRT to say, given that (a) the faxes are 100% opt-in, and (b) the UDRP has been providing fax notification for over 10 years without issues. The cost to send a 1-page fax notification of a complaint (using email to fax gateways) is on the order of 10 cents, far below the postal delivery stamp fees.
A legitimate URS complaint by a markholder will not be impacted if the registrant receives proper and timely notification (actual notice) by fax. The URS was supposedly intended for "clear cut" cases, and notification shouldn't impact the registrant's ability to defend a "clear cut" case of abuse.
However, illegitimate and frivolous URS complaints with weak claims that hope to win by default due to lack of registrant notification will greatly benefit by lack of fax notification, lack of actual notice. A legitimate registrant will strongly defend their domain name and is hurt by lack of the ability to respond and prepare a defence.
The only logical conclusion is that the IRT has intentionally acted to put the rights of illegitimate and frivolous URS complainants with weak claims ahead of legitimate domain registrants with strong defences, by putting up spurious obstacles to the domain registrants receiving actual notice and due process. This is no surprise given the IP's pro-complainant dominance of the IRT process.
While the IRT members posture in public that their report was a "compromise" I hope it is clear from just the above two cases (and there are more) that it truly was not any compromise, but was an extreme and unbalanced report.
Legitimate domain registrants like my company and others in the BC and other constituencies are prepared to work with the IP constituency to come up with a balanced solution within the GNSO process. But, until such time, the IRT report should continue to draw skepticism within the ICANN community, and be rejected.
Sincerely,
George Kirikos 416-588-0269 http://www.leap.com/
P.S. One can read our early substantial comments on the IRT, indeed with novel approaches (such as the concept of easements), that were ignored by the IRT:
http://forum.icann.org/lists/irt-draft-report/msg00000.html http://forum.icann.org/lists/irt-draft-report/msg00015.html http://forum.icann.org/lists/irt-draft-report/msg00016.html http://forum.icann.org/lists/irt-final-report/msg00000.html
This message and its attachments may contain legally privileged or confidential information. It is intended solely for the named addressee. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message (or responsible for delivery of the message to the addressee), you may not copy or deliver this message or its attachments to anyone. Rather, you should permanently delete this message and its attachments and kindly notify the sender by reply e-mail. Any content of this message and its attachments that does not relate to the official business of News America Incorporated or its subsidiaries must be taken not to have been sent or endorsed by any of them. No representation is made that this email or its attachments are without defect.
participants (3)
-
Fares, David -
jarkko.ruuska＠nokia.com -
Zahid Jamil