Reading over today's testimony, one can't help but have the feeling that ICANN is digging itself deeper and deeper into a bunker position from which it may not recover. I'm reminded of the gigantic underground cistern located near the Blue Mosque in Istanbul. Worth a trip if you haven't seen it. After the collapse of the Roman Empire, the Goths and so on came down the peninsula and ravaged the city. So walls were built. Then sieges were put in place and folks ran out of water. So at great expense the cistern was dug and covered over. Then longer sieges, etc. The invaders prevailed. The moral being that some ideas are so flawed that no amount of building walls thicker and cisterns deeper will carry the day. The Kurt Pritz testimony goes on for more than 15 pages trying to cover every possible contingency of bad behavior connected to new TLDs. And doesn't succeed. Even though the BC membership includes members with multiple relationships to ICANN, some of which are linked to proposed new TLDs, the core rationale for our constituency is to represent business users of the Domain Name System. Setting aside IDNs, which have their own rationale, I haven't seen any enthusiasm for new TLDs among users, and most of us have been opposed but willing to work on the details with ICANN because that seemed better than letting it happen without any input from us. What we have gotten for our trouble is Kurt claiming in his testimony that there is broad community support for new TLDs. That has never been the case. The ever greater accretion of protective bureaucracy to the program has produced a balance of costs and benefits - in the broad sense, including more than dollars and cents - that is seriously out of whack. It's time for us to acknowledge this, and say so publicly. - Mike
Mike: Where did you find the testimony? I've been checking the Senate Commerce website hearing notice at http://commerce.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?p=Hearings&ContentRecord_id=22f4... and have yet to find any links to witness statements. As to your larger point, I never understood why it had to be a program of unlimited new gTLDs rather than some discrete number, or why there couldn't at least have been a limited rollout in the first round to demonstrate proof of concept. It has always been the prospect of hundreds, or even thousands of new gTLDs being added near-simultaneously that has generated the intense debate within ICANN as well as the intense opposition of outside forces. Also, having attended the TM Clearinghouse briefing in Dakar as well as being on the first two Implementation Advisory Group calls that some of these protections will be damn hard to achieve -- TMC seems to require establishing something akin to a initial global TM database, which doesn't exist at present, in the next 12 months. That said, I'm not sure that anything short of litigation can halt or reopen the program at this stage. Best to all, Philip Philip S. Corwin, Founding Principal Virtualaw LLC 1155 F Street, NW Suite 1050 Washington, DC 20004 202-559-8597/Direct 202-559-8750/Fax 202-255-6172/cell "Luck is the residue of design" -- Branch Rickey -----Original Message----- From: owner-bc-gnso@icann.org [mailto:owner-bc-gnso@icann.org] On Behalf Of Mike Roberts Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 5:38 PM To: bc - GNSO list Subject: [bc-gnso] ICANN hearings Reading over today's testimony, one can't help but have the feeling that ICANN is digging itself deeper and deeper into a bunker position from which it may not recover. I'm reminded of the gigantic underground cistern located near the Blue Mosque in Istanbul. Worth a trip if you haven't seen it. After the collapse of the Roman Empire, the Goths and so on came down the peninsula and ravaged the city. So walls were built. Then sieges were put in place and folks ran out of water. So at great expense the cistern was dug and covered over. Then longer sieges, etc. The invaders prevailed. The moral being that some ideas are so flawed that no amount of building walls thicker and cisterns deeper will carry the day. The Kurt Pritz testimony goes on for more than 15 pages trying to cover every possible contingency of bad behavior connected to new TLDs. And doesn't succeed. Even though the BC membership includes members with multiple relationships to ICANN, some of which are linked to proposed new TLDs, the core rationale for our constituency is to represent business users of the Domain Name System. Setting aside IDNs, which have their own rationale, I haven't seen any enthusiasm for new TLDs among users, and most of us have been opposed but willing to work on the details with ICANN because that seemed better than letting it happen without any input from us. What we have gotten for our trouble is Kurt claiming in his testimony that there is broad community support for new TLDs. That has never been the case. The ever greater accretion of protective bureaucracy to the program has produced a balance of costs and benefits - in the broad sense, including more than dollars and cents - that is seriously out of whack. It's time for us to acknowledge this, and say so publicly. - Mike ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1415 / Virus Database: 2102/4065 - Release Date: 12/07/11
Well said! I'd also like to see copies of any testimony that is available. It will be interesting to see what transpires at tomorrow's hearing. Sarah Sarah B. Deutsch Vice President & Associate General Counsel Verizon Communications Phone: 703-351-3044 Fax: 703-351-3670 -----Original Message----- From: owner-bc-gnso@icann.org [mailto:owner-bc-gnso@icann.org] On Behalf Of Mike Roberts Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 5:38 PM To: bc - GNSO list Subject: [bc-gnso] ICANN hearings Reading over today's testimony, one can't help but have the feeling that ICANN is digging itself deeper and deeper into a bunker position from which it may not recover. I'm reminded of the gigantic underground cistern located near the Blue Mosque in Istanbul. Worth a trip if you haven't seen it. After the collapse of the Roman Empire, the Goths and so on came down the peninsula and ravaged the city. So walls were built. Then sieges were put in place and folks ran out of water. So at great expense the cistern was dug and covered over. Then longer sieges, etc. The invaders prevailed. The moral being that some ideas are so flawed that no amount of building walls thicker and cisterns deeper will carry the day. The Kurt Pritz testimony goes on for more than 15 pages trying to cover every possible contingency of bad behavior connected to new TLDs. And doesn't succeed. Even though the BC membership includes members with multiple relationships to ICANN, some of which are linked to proposed new TLDs, the core rationale for our constituency is to represent business users of the Domain Name System. Setting aside IDNs, which have their own rationale, I haven't seen any enthusiasm for new TLDs among users, and most of us have been opposed but willing to work on the details with ICANN because that seemed better than letting it happen without any input from us. What we have gotten for our trouble is Kurt claiming in his testimony that there is broad community support for new TLDs. That has never been the case. The ever greater accretion of protective bureaucracy to the program has produced a balance of costs and benefits - in the broad sense, including more than dollars and cents - that is seriously out of whack. It's time for us to acknowledge this, and say so publicly. - Mike
Update on what I know, or don't: The hearing is now one of two. House hearing rumored/or perhaps confirmed by now. If members have the testimony, post it to bc-private, rather than bc-gNSO.
From: sarah.b.deutsch@verizon.com To: mmr@darwin.ptvy.ca.us; bc-gnso@icann.org Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 18:51:14 -0500 Subject: RE: [bc-gnso] ICANN hearings
Well said! I'd also like to see copies of any testimony that is available. It will be interesting to see what transpires at tomorrow's hearing.
Sarah
Sarah B. Deutsch Vice President & Associate General Counsel Verizon Communications Phone: 703-351-3044 Fax: 703-351-3670
-----Original Message----- From: owner-bc-gnso@icann.org [mailto:owner-bc-gnso@icann.org] On Behalf Of Mike Roberts Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 5:38 PM To: bc - GNSO list Subject: [bc-gnso] ICANN hearings
Reading over today's testimony, one can't help but have the feeling that ICANN is digging itself deeper and deeper into a bunker position from which it may not recover.
I'm reminded of the gigantic underground cistern located near the Blue Mosque in Istanbul. Worth a trip if you haven't seen it.
After the collapse of the Roman Empire, the Goths and so on came down the peninsula and ravaged the city. So walls were built. Then sieges were put in place and folks ran out of water. So at great expense the cistern was dug and covered over. Then longer sieges, etc. The invaders prevailed.
The moral being that some ideas are so flawed that no amount of building walls thicker and cisterns deeper will carry the day.
The Kurt Pritz testimony goes on for more than 15 pages trying to cover every possible contingency of bad behavior connected to new TLDs. And doesn't succeed.
Even though the BC membership includes members with multiple relationships to ICANN, some of which are linked to proposed new TLDs, the core rationale for our constituency is to represent business users of the Domain Name System. Setting aside IDNs, which have their own rationale, I haven't seen any enthusiasm for new TLDs among users, and most of us have been opposed but willing to work on the details with ICANN because that seemed better than letting it happen without any input from us. What we have gotten for our trouble is Kurt claiming in his testimony that there is broad community support for new TLDs. That has never been the case.
The ever greater accretion of protective bureaucracy to the program has produced a balance of costs and benefits - in the broad sense, including more than dollars and cents - that is seriously out of whack. It's time for us to acknowledge this, and say so publicly.
- Mike
You are correct, Marilyn - hearing 2 has been officially noticed - http://energycommerce.house.gov/hearings/hearingdetail.aspx?NewsID=9134 Hearing ICANN's Top-Level Domain Name Program December 14, 2011 The Subcommittee on Communications and Technology has scheduled a hearing on Wednesday, December 14, 2011, at 9:00 a.m. in room 2123 of the Rayburn House Office Building. The title of the hearing is "ICANN's Top-Level Domain Name Program." Witness list to be announced. Philip S. Corwin, Founding Principal Virtualaw LLC 1155 F Street, NW Suite 1050 Washington, DC 20004 202-559-8597/Direct 202-559-8750/Fax 202-255-6172/cell "Luck is the residue of design" -- Branch Rickey From: owner-bc-gnso@icann.org [mailto:owner-bc-gnso@icann.org] On Behalf Of Marilyn Cade Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 7:12 PM To: sarah.b.deutsch@verizon.com; mmr@darwin.ptvy.ca.us; bc - GNSO list Subject: RE: [bc-gnso] ICANN hearings Update on what I know, or don't: The hearing is now one of two. House hearing rumored/or perhaps confirmed by now. If members have the testimony, post it to bc-private, rather than bc-gNSO.
From: sarah.b.deutsch@verizon.com<mailto:sarah.b.deutsch@verizon.com> To: mmr@darwin.ptvy.ca.us<mailto:mmr@darwin.ptvy.ca.us>; bc-gnso@icann.org<mailto:bc-gnso@icann.org> Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 18:51:14 -0500 Subject: RE: [bc-gnso] ICANN hearings
Well said! I'd also like to see copies of any testimony that is available. It will be interesting to see what transpires at tomorrow's hearing.
Sarah
Sarah B. Deutsch Vice President & Associate General Counsel Verizon Communications Phone: 703-351-3044 Fax: 703-351-3670
-----Original Message----- From: owner-bc-gnso@icann.org<mailto:owner-bc-gnso@icann.org> [mailto:owner-bc-gnso@icann.org]<mailto:[mailto:owner-bc-gnso@icann.org]> On Behalf Of Mike Roberts Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 5:38 PM To: bc - GNSO list Subject: [bc-gnso] ICANN hearings
Reading over today's testimony, one can't help but have the feeling that ICANN is digging itself deeper and deeper into a bunker position from which it may not recover.
I'm reminded of the gigantic underground cistern located near the Blue Mosque in Istanbul. Worth a trip if you haven't seen it.
After the collapse of the Roman Empire, the Goths and so on came down the peninsula and ravaged the city. So walls were built. Then sieges were put in place and folks ran out of water. So at great expense the cistern was dug and covered over. Then longer sieges, etc. The invaders prevailed.
The moral being that some ideas are so flawed that no amount of building walls thicker and cisterns deeper will carry the day.
The Kurt Pritz testimony goes on for more than 15 pages trying to cover every possible contingency of bad behavior connected to new TLDs. And doesn't succeed.
Even though the BC membership includes members with multiple relationships to ICANN, some of which are linked to proposed new TLDs, the core rationale for our constituency is to represent business users of the Domain Name System. Setting aside IDNs, which have their own rationale, I haven't seen any enthusiasm for new TLDs among users, and most of us have been opposed but willing to work on the details with ICANN because that seemed better than letting it happen without any input from us. What we have gotten for our trouble is Kurt claiming in his testimony that there is broad community support for new TLDs. That has never been the case.
The ever greater accretion of protective bureaucracy to the program has produced a balance of costs and benefits - in the broad sense, including more than dollars and cents - that is seriously out of whack. It's time for us to acknowledge this, and say so publicly.
- Mike
________________________________ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<http://www.avg.com> Version: 10.0.1415 / Virus Database: 2102/4065 - Release Date: 12/07/11
Well said Mike, thanks Michael Castello CEO/President Castello Cities Internet Network, Inc. http://www.ccin.com michael@ccin.com -- Wednesday, December 7, 2011, 2:37:47 PM, you wrote: MR> Reading over today's testimony, one can't help but have the MR> feeling that ICANN is digging itself deeper and deeper into a MR> bunker position from which it may not recover. MR> I'm reminded of the gigantic underground cistern located near the MR> Blue Mosque in Istanbul. Worth a trip if you haven't seen it. MR> After the collapse of the Roman Empire, the Goths and so on came MR> down the peninsula and ravaged the city. So walls were built. MR> Then sieges were put in place and folks ran out of water. So at MR> great expense the cistern was dug and covered over. Then longer MR> sieges, etc. The invaders prevailed. MR> The moral being that some ideas are so flawed that no amount of MR> building walls thicker and cisterns deeper will carry the day. MR> The Kurt Pritz testimony goes on for more than 15 pages trying to MR> cover every possible contingency of bad behavior connected to new TLDs. And doesn't succeed. MR> Even though the BC membership includes members with multiple MR> relationships to ICANN, some of which are linked to proposed new MR> TLDs, the core rationale for our constituency is to represent MR> business users of the Domain Name System. Setting aside IDNs, MR> which have their own rationale, I haven't seen any enthusiasm for MR> new TLDs among users, and most of us have been opposed but willing MR> to work on the details with ICANN because that seemed better than MR> letting it happen without any input from us. What we have gotten MR> for our trouble is Kurt claiming in his testimony that there is MR> broad community support for new TLDs. That has never been the case. MR> The ever greater accretion of protective bureaucracy to the MR> program has produced a balance of costs and benefits - in the MR> broad sense, including more than dollars and cents - that is MR> seriously out of whack. It's time for us to acknowledge this, and say so publicly. MR> - Mike
I disagree with your assessment of community support for the program. There was a supermajority vote which approved the new TLD principles, including support of the BC and IPC, because we believe that business users of the DNS would be better off with more domain name choices, more registration service providers, and IDN TLDs, . The ICANN Board was nearly unanimous in approving the current implementation plan. The BC is still in favor of new TLDs, even if we have some reservations about some of the implementation details. There is broad community support for them, even if there also remains some broad opposition from some business/IP groups who are noisily repeating some of the arguments that have been made by the BC and others repeatedly for years. So, I am not clear about what you would like the BC to say publicly at this point, perhaps you could circulate a draft? Thanks, Mike Mike Rodenbaugh RODENBAUGH LAW tel/fax: +1.415.738.8087 http://rodenbaugh.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-bc-gnso@icann.org [mailto:owner-bc-gnso@icann.org] On Behalf Of Mike Roberts Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 2:38 PM To: bc - GNSO list Subject: [bc-gnso] ICANN hearings Reading over today's testimony, one can't help but have the feeling that ICANN is digging itself deeper and deeper into a bunker position from which it may not recover. I'm reminded of the gigantic underground cistern located near the Blue Mosque in Istanbul. Worth a trip if you haven't seen it. After the collapse of the Roman Empire, the Goths and so on came down the peninsula and ravaged the city. So walls were built. Then sieges were put in place and folks ran out of water. So at great expense the cistern was dug and covered over. Then longer sieges, etc. The invaders prevailed. The moral being that some ideas are so flawed that no amount of building walls thicker and cisterns deeper will carry the day. The Kurt Pritz testimony goes on for more than 15 pages trying to cover every possible contingency of bad behavior connected to new TLDs. And doesn't succeed. Even though the BC membership includes members with multiple relationships to ICANN, some of which are linked to proposed new TLDs, the core rationale for our constituency is to represent business users of the Domain Name System. Setting aside IDNs, which have their own rationale, I haven't seen any enthusiasm for new TLDs among users, and most of us have been opposed but willing to work on the details with ICANN because that seemed better than letting it happen without any input from us. What we have gotten for our trouble is Kurt claiming in his testimony that there is broad community support for new TLDs. That has never been the case. The ever greater accretion of protective bureaucracy to the program has produced a balance of costs and benefits - in the broad sense, including more than dollars and cents - that is seriously out of whack. It's time for us to acknowledge this, and say so publicly. - Mike
I've always maintained that it is easy to tell when you have consensus, for any reasonable definition of consensus. Given the continued disagreement, discussion, and debate regarding new gTLDs, it doesn't appear that we have consensus. If we did, I believe we'd see more head nodding and much less talking. Even here in the BC, we have discussed and submitted suggestions for "improvement" to the new system. That's not a consensus agreement but something more like what was described in an earlier message that went something like this; if new gTLDs are a fait a complit, it's better that we help eliminate the worst aspects and improve it as best we can. That's fatalism, not consensus. While ICANN claims to be a bottoms-up, consensus-based, multi-stakeholder organization, it has yet to navigate the difficult waters of actually become the organization it professes to be. In terms of consensus, as far as I know a simple majority in each of ICANN's constituencies would be sufficient to declare consensus, by a strict definition, on any issue at the GNSO Council. The vote would be unanimous. So if our definition of consensus is a simple majority of those voting, ICANN is consensus-based. But if our definition is closer to unanimity, or lack of sustained, substantial objection by more than an insignificant minority, we don't have a consensus decision. I'd be hard-pressed to sit before Congress and declare that we have reached consensus. On Dec 7, 2011, at 11:37 PM, "icann@rodenbaugh.com" <icann@rodenbaugh.com> wrote:
I disagree with your assessment of community support for the program. There was a supermajority vote which approved the new TLD principles, including support of the BC and IPC, because we believe that business users of the DNS would be better off with more domain name choices, more registration service providers, and IDN TLDs, . The ICANN Board was nearly unanimous in approving the current implementation plan. The BC is still in favor of new TLDs, even if we have some reservations about some of the implementation details. There is broad community support for them, even if there also remains some broad opposition from some business/IP groups who are noisily repeating some of the arguments that have been made by the BC and others repeatedly for years.
So, I am not clear about what you would like the BC to say publicly at this point, perhaps you could circulate a draft?
Thanks, Mike
Mike Rodenbaugh RODENBAUGH LAW tel/fax: +1.415.738.8087 http://rodenbaugh.com
-----Original Message----- From: owner-bc-gnso@icann.org [mailto:owner-bc-gnso@icann.org] On Behalf Of Mike Roberts Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 2:38 PM To: bc - GNSO list Subject: [bc-gnso] ICANN hearings
Reading over today's testimony, one can't help but have the feeling that ICANN is digging itself deeper and deeper into a bunker position from which it may not recover.
I'm reminded of the gigantic underground cistern located near the Blue Mosque in Istanbul. Worth a trip if you haven't seen it.
After the collapse of the Roman Empire, the Goths and so on came down the peninsula and ravaged the city. So walls were built. Then sieges were put in place and folks ran out of water. So at great expense the cistern was dug and covered over. Then longer sieges, etc. The invaders prevailed.
The moral being that some ideas are so flawed that no amount of building walls thicker and cisterns deeper will carry the day.
The Kurt Pritz testimony goes on for more than 15 pages trying to cover every possible contingency of bad behavior connected to new TLDs. And doesn't succeed.
Even though the BC membership includes members with multiple relationships to ICANN, some of which are linked to proposed new TLDs, the core rationale for our constituency is to represent business users of the Domain Name System. Setting aside IDNs, which have their own rationale, I haven't seen any enthusiasm for new TLDs among users, and most of us have been opposed but willing to work on the details with ICANN because that seemed better than letting it happen without any input from us. What we have gotten for our trouble is Kurt claiming in his testimony that there is broad community support for new TLDs. That has never been the case.
The ever greater accretion of protective bureaucracy to the program has produced a balance of costs and benefits - in the broad sense, including more than dollars and cents - that is seriously out of whack. It's time for us to acknowledge this, and say so publicly.
- Mike
participants (7)
-
Deutsch, Sarah B -
icann@rodenbaugh.com -
Marilyn Cade -
Michael Castello -
Mike Roberts -
Phil Corwin -
Smith, Bill