thanks Rafik - let me  try posting to this one :)

Joy
On 2/12/2014 2:05 p.m., Rafik Dammak wrote:
Hi Joy,

this is the list  http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/cc-humanrights/ and its mail address cc-humanrights@icann.org , what kind of error message your are getting?

Rafik

2014-12-02 9:29 GMT+09:00 joy <joy@apc.org>:
Hi - for some reason the new list created for us is not working when I try to post to it, so a brief reply below in the meantime
Regards

Joy
On 2/12/2014 1:36 a.m., Niels ten Oever wrote:
Dear Bill,

Response inline:

>>> Re: title, bear in mind how it will look on an ICANN program,
>>> crammed into a little box.  Also, I don’t think a workshop
>>> needs to be labeled as cross community, workshops are presumed
>>> to be open to the whole community unless marked with a [C].
>>> Indeed, it doesn’t even need to be labeled a workshop.  Look
>>> for ex at Wednesday sessions
>>> athttp://la51.icann.org/en/schedule-full
>>> <http://la51.icann.org/en/schedule-full>.  And for further
>>> finickiness, I’m not sure I’d mention procedures, which could
>>> set some minds spinning (are they saying our SO-AC's procedures
>>> are problematic in terms of HR?!)  Why not just a simple soft
>>> entry like ICANN Human Rights: Continuing the Conversation?

Moving from substance to process is not necessarily a good thing imho.
If people have issues with 'procedures', let's discuss it there!

I think your comments on length are very useful, so I would propose:

Human rights and ICANN's policies and procedures

 I'm relaxed about the title - but I recall the clear message at the last ICANN meeting was to try and bring people along and into the discussion, so have something simple and inclusive.
>>>
>>> Re: mail list, like Marilia I would never presume that by
>>> signing a passed around paper people have agreed to have their
>>> names added to yet another mail list.  I’d set it up and send a
>>> message inviting them to join.

Will do.
 Like I said, for some reason I am getting error messages from this list: ncsg-hr-icann-request@icann.org Is there another one?

>>>
>>> Re: description, I know we don’t all agree on the appropriate
>>> speed here, but personally I would not convey that we (some
>>> undefined group) have already determined that ICANNs policies
>>> and procedures have an impact of human rights and therefore we
>>> are starting a process to formulate a solution.

Am a bit surprised by this Bill. There is not a doubt that ICANN
impacts freedom of expression and privacy, right?!
 Neils: I am afraid Bill is correct and in my view we have a severe clash of understanding in ICANN - as human rights advocates, you and I both know that 'human rights' includes FX and privacy. But in ICANN, dominated as it is by US folks, they have no clue what 'human rights' are: honestly. They might have a vague idea what 'civil rights' are, but in my experience most are quite ignorant about 'human rights' and think these are to do with poverty and clean water or social security - so there is sometimes a kind of intellectual allergic reaction or a more mild sense of being non-plussed about how human rights are relevant. This seems to also attach to the politics of the issue as well.

>>> A lot of the community is still nowhere near being in the tent.
>>> I had two board members pull me aside in LA to say WTF is this
>>> human rights thing who are these people this could be a
>>> disaster, and I heard various other comments from people in
>>> governments and the community that were at a minimum, skeptical
>>> and reserved.

But isn't that exactly a reason to have that discussion in a workshop
instead of in backchannels?
 JL: yes, but it needs to come back to some simple concepts to help build understanding - the Europeans, Canadians, South African, Kenyan, Pakistan among others, - will understand - but my guess is that many from the US will not.


>>> So I’d think we want a formulation that isn’t still stuck at
>>> square 1 but isn’t already charging up the hill either.
>>> Moreover, I think we’d want to acknowledge some of the push
>>> back we have already received about is ICANN the wrong place
>>> for this, a few policies might be relevant but most are not,
>>> was the report an official statement of collective view by the
>>> COE, etc. etc.
>>>


>>> Would this be too weak-kneed for you all?

This text seems fine with me. Let's agree on the title and submit it.

>>>
>>> There is a growing recognition in parts of the community that
>>> some of ICANN’s policies and other actions may have
>>> implications for human rights like freedom of expression and
>>> the right to privacy. While ICANN is not the place to negotiate
>>> over such rights, it would be advisable on political and other
>>> grounds to assess whether our work is fully consistent with
>>> internationally agreed human rights laws and policies, and to
>>> identify possible methods for addressing any incompatibilities.
>>> To date, these issues have been discussed on a case by case
>>> basis. This cross-community workshop will consider options for
>>> starting a process that could address them in a more systemic
>>> manner.
>>>
>>> The workshop builds on discussions begun in London with the
>>> presentation of a report sponsored by the Council of Europe,
>>> [1] and continued in LA with the cross-community workshop on
>>> ICANN and Human Rights.
JL: some ideas for an issues paper to support the Singapore meeting might be:

+ let's give these HR some faces and names!! How about 3 or 4 case studies or human rights related scenarios from registrants'  perspectives: eg 3 or 4  HR defenders from Syria, Egypt, or other countries whose registrant information is illegally sought by LEA under ICANN policies and this puts them at risk; perhaps have a freedom of association and freedom of expression case study as well. Also a case study of what can go wrong if HR not taken into account - from a Registrar perspective - eg put at legal risk for violating registrants rights; or
+ A mapping of some current GNSO pdps where human rights are relevant but have no so far been realised and where a HRAC (like SSAC) could be asked for advice; or
+ contrast the HR issues in ccTLD and gTLD (this might be too complex to do at this point, but could be a way to engage with ccNSO

I am happy to help with these and will have time after Dec 16th to do so

Joy

>>>
>>> Two cents,
>>>
>>> Bill
>>>

Cheers,

Niels


>>>
>>>
>>>> On Nov 27, 2014, at 8:36 PM, Stephanie Perrin
>>>> <stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Yes we made that amply clear, people who did not want their
>>>> names on tended to not supply them as I recall. cheers Steph
>>>> On 14-11-27 11:41 AM, Marilia Maciel wrote:
>>>>> Dear Niels,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you for the workshop description. I think that´s
>>>>> exactly what we need. I would go with the shorter title.
>>>>> Did we make clear in LA that we would add people who
>>>>> provided their e-mails to a mailing list? If not, maybe it
>>>>> would be better to send a short message asking them to
>>>>> join. People tend to be upset when they are added without
>>>>> consent.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best, Marília
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 8:21 PM, Niels ten Oever
>>>>> <niels@article19.org <mailto:niels@article19.org>> wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> My first stab at a description for the session:
>>>
>>> __________
>>>
>>> Short title: Cross-Community Workshop on human rights and
>>> ICANN's policies and procedures
>>>
>>> Possible longer title: ICANNs policies and procedures and
>>> their impact on human rights and fundamental freedoms
>>>
>>> __________
>>>
>>> ICANNs policies and procedures have an impact of human rights
>>> such as freedom of expression and the right to privacy. These
>>> issues are often discussed on a case by case bases. This
>>> workshop aims to discuss how a process could be started which
>>> would try to formulate a more systemic approach to protect
>>> human rights, fundamental freedoms and democratic values.
>>>
>>> The workshop will continue the discussion that started with
>>> the presentation of the Council of Europe report [0] in London
>>> and the meeting on ICANN and Human Rights in LA and aims to
>>> include voices from all constituencies.
>>>
>>>
>>> [0]
>>> http://www.coe.int/t/informationsociety/icann-and-human-rights.asp
>>
>>>
> <http://www.coe.int/t/informationsociety/icann-and-human-rights.asp>
>>


>>> ___________
>>>
>>> Also Rafik, are you the admin of the mailinglist? Shall I sent
>>> an email announcing the mailing list to the people who signed
>>> up for this in LA ? Or would you like to auto-add them to the
>>> mailinglist?
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Niels
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11/24/2014 01:46 PM, Rafik Dammak wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are 2 things: -securing a room is "logistics" , I
>>>>>>> can make request and give details like room layout,
>>>>>>> expected number of attendees, remote participation but
>>>>>>> I will need a description for session. Glen will help
>>>>>>> with metimg team - program committee concern getting
>>>>>>> other parts of the community in board e.g. registrars
>>>>>>> and so on
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can do the first, for the second we need to
>>>>>>> coordinate to avoid confusing messages.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rafik
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Nov 22, 2014 2:59 AM, "Marilia Maciel"
>>>>>>> <mariliamaciel@gmail.com
>>>>>>> <mailto:mariliamaciel@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> <mailto:mariliamaciel@gmail.com
>>>>>>> <mailto:mariliamaciel@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Steph,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On my mind the request for the room and the actual
>>>>>>> organization/sponsorship of the meeting are two
>>>>>>> different things. The first is just a formality. As Lee
>>>>>>> confirmed to us, we need to anchor it in a community to
>>>>>>> secure a room. Probably a partnership between NCSG/NCUC
>>>>>>> and CoE is the fastest way forward. As Bill highlighted
>>>>>>> we should get it going.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For the actual planning and shapping of the event I
>>>>>>> completely agree with you. We need to broaden the
>>>>>>> organizing team. Other constituencies, ACs and SOs
>>>>>>> should take ownership. Maybe some kind of joint
>>>>>>> curation of the program could be a way forward?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Marília
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 3:36 PM, Stephanie Perrin
>>>>>>> <stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca
>>>>>>> <mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca>
>>>>>>> <mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca
>>>>>>> <mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> WHy not try for a friendly registrar as a partner,
>>>>>>> like VOlker or Michele? or Tucows? or Bladel?  We could
>>>>>>> also hit up Don Blumenthal who is chairing the PPSAI?
>>>>>>> On 2014-11-21, 12:12, William Drake wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nigel’s suggestion strikes me as difficult to move
>>>>>>>> quickly and a potentially a bit of a hard sell, given
>>>>>>>> that most of the GNSO either won’t be up to speed or
>>>>>>>> may be opposed. But if we want to try that route I
>>>>>>>> suppose Avri could raise it in the GNSO Council and
>>>>>>>> see if all the industry factions suddenly discover a
>>>>>>>> collective desire to have ICANN talking human
>>>>>>>> rights.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It’s not obvious to me why this should be necessary
>>>>>>>> though. NCUC and NCSG have secured meeting space
>>>>>>>> before. If NCSG were to submit and say this is a
>>>>>>>> joint request with COE and some governments (would
>>>>>>>> help a lot to have one willing to be publicly
>>>>>>>> identified with it) I’d not see how they could argue
>>>>>>>> that it’s not a sufficiently ‘community’ initiative.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bill
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Nov 21, 2014, at 5:39 PM, HIBBARD Lee
>>>>>>>>> <Lee.HIBBARD@coe.int <mailto:Lee.HIBBARD@coe.int>
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:Lee.HIBBARD@coe.int
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:Lee.HIBBARD@coe.int>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi everyone,____ I asked Nigel Hickson for a room
>>>>>>>>> and he suggested that GNSO makes the request. It
>>>>>>>>> seems best to attach it to a community structure –
>>>>>>>>> could anyone help?____ Thanks Lee____
>>>>>>>>> *From:*Marilia Maciel
>>>>>>>>> [mailto:mariliamaciel@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:mariliamaciel@gmail.com>] *Sent:*vendredi
>>>>>>>>> 21 novembre 2014 17:15 *To:*William Drake
>>>>>>>>> *Cc:*Rafik Dammak; Niels ten Oever; Olivier
>>>>>>>>> Crepin-Leblond;
>>>>>>>>> StephaniePerrin;Mark.Carvell@culture.gsi.gov.uk
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:Perrin%3BMark.Carvell@culture.gsi.gov.uk>
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:Mark.Carvell@culture.gsi.gov.uk
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:Mark.Carvell@culture.gsi.gov.uk>>;Nicolas.Rollier@bakom.admin.ch
>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>> <mailto:Nicolas.Rollier@bakom.admin.ch>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>> <mailto:Nicolas.Rollier@bakom.admin.ch
>>> <mailto:Nicolas.Rollier@bakom.admin.ch>>; Joy
>>>>>>>>> Liddicoat;RPEREZGA@minetur.es
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:Liddicoat%3BRPEREZGA@minetur.es>
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:RPEREZGA@minetur.es
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:RPEREZGA@minetur.es>>; Thomas Schneider;
>>>>>>>>> Avri Doria;wolf@eurodig.org
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:Doria%3Bwolf@eurodig.org>
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:wolf@eurodig.org
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:wolf@eurodig.org>>;mcastanon@rree.gob.pe
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:mcastanon@rree.gob.pe>
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:mcastanon@rree.gob.pe
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:mcastanon@rree.gob.pe>>; Roy Balleste;
>>>>>>>>> Robin Gross; HIBBARD Lee;
>>>>>>>>> OlgaCavalli;mallory@apc.org
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:Cavalli%3Bmallory@apc.org>
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:mallory@apc.org <mailto:mallory@apc.org>>
>>>>>>>>> *Subject:*Re: ICANN and human rights followup to
>>>>>>>>> meeting in LA____ __ __ Hi Bill,____
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> According to Niels´ notes from our meeting Lee was
>>>>>>>>> expected to book the room. However, I think that
>>>>>>>>> in order to avoid any misunderstanding about the
>>>>>>>>> nature of this meeting (re. confusing with a
>>>>>>>>> private/parallel event, as happened in LA) a
>>>>>>>>> community leader should do it. Maybe you or Rafik
>>>>>>>>> could help us? If useful, I volunteer to assist
>>>>>>>>> with the follow-up of the contact with staff if you
>>>>>>>>> make the first request and cc me.____
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Best!____ Marília____ __ __ On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at
>>>>>>>>> 1:26 PM, William Drake <wjdrake@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:wjdrake@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:wjdrake@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:wjdrake@gmail.com>>> wrote:____ Hi
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Glad this is moving along. Has anyone made a room
>>>>>>>>> request for Singapore?  There’s going to be quite a
>>>>>>>>> lot of pulls on the scheduling...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Best
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bill____
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Nov 21, 2014, at 4:06 PM, Marilia Maciel
>>>>>>>>> <mariliamaciel@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:mariliamaciel@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:mariliamaciel@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:mariliamaciel@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Rafik,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks so much for your work on that. Please
>>>>>>>>>> convey our thanks also
>>>>>>>>> to Glen. I think the name is excellent. CC
>>>>>>>>> reinforces that this is a cross-community effort
>>>>>>>>> and we have human rights clearly on the tittle.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If everyone agrees, I believe we could proceed
>>>>>>>>>> with sending
>>>>>>>>> invitations to the people who participated in our
>>>>>>>>> meeting in LA so they will join this list. Once it
>>>>>>>>> is working our discussions will become more
>>>>>>>>> inclusive.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> All the best!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Marília
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ____
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --____ *Marília Maciel*____ Pesquisadora Gestora -
>>>>>>>>> Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade - FGV Direito
>>>>>>>>> Rio____ Researcher and Coordinator - Center for
>>>>>>>>> Technology & Society - FGV Law School____
>>>>>>>>> http://direitorio.fgv.br/cts____
>>>>>>>>> <http://direitorio.fgv.br/cts____> __ __
>>>>>>>>> DiploFoundation associate -www.diplomacy.edu
>>>>>>>>> <http://www.diplomacy.edu/>
>>>>>>>>> <http://www.diplomacy.edu/
>>>>>>>>> <http://www.diplomacy.edu/>>____ PoliTICs Magazine
>>>>>>>>> Advisory Committee
>>>>>>>>> -http://www.politics.org.br/____
>>>>>>>>> <http://www.politics.org.br/____> Subscribe
>>>>>>>>> "Digital Rights: Latin America & the Caribbean" -
>>>>>>>>> http://www.digitalrightslac.net/en
>>>>>>>>> <http://www.digitalrightslac.net/en>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ***********************************************
>>>>>>>> William J. Drake International Fellow & Lecturer
>>>>>>>> Media Change & Innovation Division, IPMZ University
>>>>>>>> of Zurich, Switzerland Chair, Noncommercial Users
>>>>>>>> Constituency, ICANN,www.ncuc.org
>>>>>>>> <http://www.ncuc.org/> <http://www.ncuc.org
>>>>>>>> <http://www.ncuc.org/>> william.drake@uzh.ch
>>>>>>>> <mailto:william.drake@uzh.ch>
>>>>>>>> <mailto:william.drake@uzh.ch
>>>>>>>> <mailto:william.drake@uzh.ch>>
>>>>>>>> (direct),wjdrake@gmail.com
>>>>>>>> <mailto:wjdrake@gmail.com> <mailto:wjdrake@gmail.com
>>>>>>>> <mailto:wjdrake@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>> (lists),www.williamdrake.org
>>>>>>>> <http://www.williamdrake.org/>
>>>>>>>> <http://www.williamdrake.org
>>>>>>>> <http://www.williamdrake.org/>>
>>>>>>>> ***********************************************
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -- *Marília Maciel* Pesquisadora Gestora - Centro de
>>>>>>> Tecnologia e Sociedade - FGV Direito Rio Researcher
>>>>>>> and Coordinator - Center for Technology & Society - FGV
>>>>>>> Law Schoolhttp://direitorio.fgv.br/cts
>>>>>>> <http://direitorio.fgv.br/cts>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> DiploFoundation associate -www.diplomacy.edu
>>>>>>> <http://www.diplomacy.edu/> <http://www.diplomacy.edu
>>>>>>> <http://www.diplomacy.edu/>> PoliTICs Magazine
>>>>>>> Advisory Committee -http://www.politics.org.br/
>>>>>>> <http://www.politics.org.br/> Subscribe "Digital
>>>>>>> Rights: Latin America & the Caribbean" -
>>>>>>> http://www.digitalrightslac.net/en
>>>>>>> <http://www.digitalrightslac.net/en>
>>>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -- Marília Maciel Pesquisadora Gestora - Centro de
>>>>> Tecnologia e Sociedade - FGV Direito Rio Researcher and
>>>>> Coordinator - Center for Technology & Society - FGV Law
>>>>> School http://direitorio.fgv.br/cts
>>>>> <http://direitorio.fgv.br/cts>
>>>>>
>>>>> DiploFoundation associate -www.diplomacy.edu
>>>>> <http://www.diplomacy.edu/> PoliTICs Magazine Advisory
>>>>> Committee -http://www.politics.org.br/
>>>>> <http://www.politics.org.br/> Subscribe "Digital Rights:
>>>>> Latin America & the Caribbean" -
>>>>> http://www.digitalrightslac.net/en
>>>>> <http://www.digitalrightslac.net/en>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> *********************************************** William J.
>>> Drake International Fellow & Lecturer Media Change & Innovation
>>> Division, IPMZ University of Zurich, Switzerland Chair,
>>> Noncommercial Users Constituency, ICANN,www.ncuc.org
>>> william.drake@uzh.ch (direct), wjdrake@gmail.com (lists),
>>> www.williamdrake.org
>>> ***********************************************
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>