Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] New Deadline - 26 July 2019 - input on updated draft Final Report and outstanding questions
B was not an ICANN Subsidiary but some other existing entity that we could team up with so that we did not have to re-invent services that we could outsource. That being said, I am happy to eliminate it! Mechanism A always has the option of outsourcing some of the functions. BTW, under the California law that we operate under, a Public Interest Corp cannot have a "subsidiary", but that is just a nomenclature issue. Alan At 25/07/2019 01:35 AM, John Levine wrote:
Mechanism B: I presume the phrase "established at a public charity" should be "established as a public charity". I do not understand why the issue of tax benefits is being raised as in our case all of the money is coming form ICANN which does not pay any taxes. So it SOUNDS like a benefit but is in fact meaningless in our case. It should be made clear that at this point, it is not clear what parts would be outsourced and what will be kept within ICANN (except the application evaluation which must be outsourced).
I believe that this is supposed to say that ICANN establishes a captive foundation as a subsidiary.
Having done exactly that at ISOC, I can say that for the CCWG's purposes, giving away a one-time pile of money, this mechanism is inferior in every way to mechanism A. It costs more, takes longer, has a lot more bureaucratic overhead, and can do no more or no less than mechanism A. As Alan notes, it has no tax benefits. It is a waste of everyone's time to pursue it further.
If anyone has a concrete reason why they believe this would be a good idea, and is reasonably familiar with US non-profit tax law so they understand what's involved, I would like to hear about it.
R's, John
PS: ISOC's situation is quite different and it makes sense for us. If anyone wants details write me privately.
Would it be helpful, just for information, to note that : "Public Technical Identifiers (PTI) was incorporated in August 2016 as an affiliate of ICANN, and, through contracts and subcontracts with ICANN, began performing the IANA functions on behalf of ICANN in October 2016." -----Message d'origine----- De : Ccwg-auctionproceeds [mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org] De la part de Alan Greenberg Envoyé : jeudi 25 juillet 2019 17:36 À : John Levine Cc : CCWG Auction Proceeds Objet : Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] New Deadline - 26 July 2019 - input on updated draft Final Report and outstanding questions B was not an ICANN Subsidiary but some other existing entity that we could team up with so that we did not have to re-invent services that we could outsource. That being said, I am happy to eliminate it! Mechanism A always has the option of outsourcing some of the functions. BTW, under the California law that we operate under, a Public Interest Corp cannot have a "subsidiary", but that is just a nomenclature issue. Alan At 25/07/2019 01:35 AM, John Levine wrote:
Mechanism B: I presume the phrase "established at a public charity" should be "established as a public charity". I do not understand why the issue of tax benefits is being raised as in our case all of the money is coming form ICANN which does not pay any taxes. So it SOUNDS like a benefit but is in fact meaningless in our case. It should be made clear that at this point, it is not clear what parts would be outsourced and what will be kept within ICANN (except the application evaluation which must be outsourced).
I believe that this is supposed to say that ICANN establishes a captive foundation as a subsidiary.
Having done exactly that at ISOC, I can say that for the CCWG's purposes, giving away a one-time pile of money, this mechanism is inferior in every way to mechanism A. It costs more, takes longer, has a lot more bureaucratic overhead, and can do no more or no less than mechanism A. As Alan notes, it has no tax benefits. It is a waste of everyone's time to pursue it further.
If anyone has a concrete reason why they believe this would be a good idea, and is reasonably familiar with US non-profit tax law so they understand what's involved, I would like to hear about it.
R's, John
PS: ISOC's situation is quite different and it makes sense for us. If anyone wants details write me privately.
_______________________________________________ Ccwg-auctionproceeds mailing list Ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ccwg-auctionproceeds _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified. Thank you.
Thank you for reminding us of this connection which we raised as an option to consider very early in our discussions but was ignored. On Thu, 25 Jul 2019, 5:40 AM , <marienoemie.marques@orange.com> wrote:
Would it be helpful, just for information, to note that : "Public Technical Identifiers (PTI) was incorporated in August 2016 as an affiliate of ICANN, and, through contracts and subcontracts with ICANN, began performing the IANA functions on behalf of ICANN in October 2016."
-----Message d'origine----- De : Ccwg-auctionproceeds [mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org] De la part de Alan Greenberg Envoyé : jeudi 25 juillet 2019 17:36 À : John Levine Cc : CCWG Auction Proceeds Objet : Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] New Deadline - 26 July 2019 - input on updated draft Final Report and outstanding questions
B was not an ICANN Subsidiary but some other existing entity that we could team up with so that we did not have to re-invent services that we could outsource. That being said, I am happy to eliminate it! Mechanism A always has the option of outsourcing some of the functions.
BTW, under the California law that we operate under, a Public Interest Corp cannot have a "subsidiary", but that is just a nomenclature issue.
Alan
At 25/07/2019 01:35 AM, John Levine wrote:
Mechanism B: I presume the phrase "established at a public charity" should be "established as a public charity". I do not understand why the issue of tax benefits is being raised as in our case all of the money is coming form ICANN which does not pay any taxes. So it SOUNDS like a benefit but is in fact meaningless in our case. It should be made clear that at this point, it is not clear what parts would be outsourced and what will be kept within ICANN (except the application evaluation which must be outsourced).
I believe that this is supposed to say that ICANN establishes a captive foundation as a subsidiary.
Having done exactly that at ISOC, I can say that for the CCWG's purposes, giving away a one-time pile of money, this mechanism is inferior in every way to mechanism A. It costs more, takes longer, has a lot more bureaucratic overhead, and can do no more or no less than mechanism A. As Alan notes, it has no tax benefits. It is a waste of everyone's time to pursue it further.
If anyone has a concrete reason why they believe this would be a good idea, and is reasonably familiar with US non-profit tax law so they understand what's involved, I would like to hear about it.
R's, John
PS: ISOC's situation is quite different and it makes sense for us. If anyone wants details write me privately.
_______________________________________________ Ccwg-auctionproceeds mailing list Ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ccwg-auctionproceeds _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified. Thank you.
_______________________________________________ Ccwg-auctionproceeds mailing list Ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ccwg-auctionproceeds _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
PTI's structure and functions have no relationship to the ccwg's. I do not understand why people keep bringing it up.PTI does administrative activities under contract to icann and others. It does nothing even a little bit like giving out grants.Autocorrectly,John -------- Original message --------From: Maureen Hilyard <maureen.hilyard@gmail.com> Date: 7/25/19 08:46 (GMT-08:00) To: marienoemie.marques@orange.com Cc: Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca>, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com>, CCWG Auction Proceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] New Deadline - 26 July 2019 - input on updated draft Final Report and outstanding questions Thank you for reminding us of this connection which we raised as an option to consider very early in our discussions but was ignored.On Thu, 25 Jul 2019, 5:40 AM , <marienoemie.marques@orange.com> wrote:Would it be helpful, just for information, to note that : "Public Technical Identifiers (PTI) was incorporated in August 2016 as an affiliate of ICANN, and, through contracts and subcontracts with ICANN, began performing the IANA functions on behalf of ICANN in October 2016." -----Message d'origine----- De : Ccwg-auctionproceeds [mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org] De la part de Alan Greenberg Envoyé : jeudi 25 juillet 2019 17:36 À : John Levine Cc : CCWG Auction Proceeds Objet : Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] New Deadline - 26 July 2019 - input on updated draft Final Report and outstanding questions B was not an ICANN Subsidiary but some other existing entity that we could team up with so that we did not have to re-invent services that we could outsource. That being said, I am happy to eliminate it! Mechanism A always has the option of outsourcing some of the functions. BTW, under the California law that we operate under, a Public Interest Corp cannot have a "subsidiary", but that is just a nomenclature issue. Alan At 25/07/2019 01:35 AM, John Levine wrote:
Mechanism B: I presume the phrase "established at a public charity" should be "established as a public charity". I do not understand why the issue of tax benefits is being raised as in our case all of the money is coming form ICANN which does not pay any taxes. So it SOUNDS like a benefit but is in fact meaningless in our case. It should be made clear that at this point, it is not clear what parts would be outsourced and what will be kept within ICANN (except the application evaluation which must be outsourced).
I believe that this is supposed to say that ICANN establishes a captive foundation as a subsidiary.
Having done exactly that at ISOC, I can say that for the CCWG's purposes, giving away a one-time pile of money, this mechanism is inferior in every way to mechanism A. It costs more, takes longer, has a lot more bureaucratic overhead, and can do no more or no less than mechanism A. As Alan notes, it has no tax benefits. It is a waste of everyone's time to pursue it further.
If anyone has a concrete reason why they believe this would be a good idea, and is reasonably familiar with US non-profit tax law so they understand what's involved, I would like to hear about it.
R's, John
PS: ISOC's situation is quite different and it makes sense for us. If anyone wants details write me privately.
_______________________________________________ Ccwg-auctionproceeds mailing list Ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ccwg-auctionproceeds _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. _______________________________________________ Ccwg-auctionproceeds mailing list Ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ccwg-auctionproceeds _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
John The point is that ICANN can create a structure/department that can act autonomously On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 5:58 AM John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
PTI's structure and functions have no relationship to the ccwg's. I do not understand why people keep bringing it up.
PTI does administrative activities under contract to icann and others. It does nothing even a little bit like giving out grants.
Autocorrectly, John
-------- Original message -------- From: Maureen Hilyard <maureen.hilyard@gmail.com> Date: 7/25/19 08:46 (GMT-08:00) To: marienoemie.marques@orange.com Cc: Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca>, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com>, CCWG Auction Proceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] New Deadline - 26 July 2019 - input on updated draft Final Report and outstanding questions
Thank you for reminding us of this connection which we raised as an option to consider very early in our discussions but was ignored.
On Thu, 25 Jul 2019, 5:40 AM , <marienoemie.marques@orange.com> wrote:
Would it be helpful, just for information, to note that : "Public Technical Identifiers (PTI) was incorporated in August 2016 as an affiliate of ICANN, and, through contracts and subcontracts with ICANN, began performing the IANA functions on behalf of ICANN in October 2016."
-----Message d'origine----- De : Ccwg-auctionproceeds [mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org] De la part de Alan Greenberg Envoyé : jeudi 25 juillet 2019 17:36 À : John Levine Cc : CCWG Auction Proceeds Objet : Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] New Deadline - 26 July 2019 - input on updated draft Final Report and outstanding questions
B was not an ICANN Subsidiary but some other existing entity that we could team up with so that we did not have to re-invent services that we could outsource. That being said, I am happy to eliminate it! Mechanism A always has the option of outsourcing some of the functions.
BTW, under the California law that we operate under, a Public Interest Corp cannot have a "subsidiary", but that is just a nomenclature issue.
Alan
At 25/07/2019 01:35 AM, John Levine wrote:
Mechanism B: I presume the phrase "established at a public charity" should be "established as a public charity". I do not understand why the issue of tax benefits is being raised as in our case all of the money is coming form ICANN which does not pay any taxes. So it SOUNDS like a benefit but is in fact meaningless in our case. It should be made clear that at this point, it is not clear what parts would be outsourced and what will be kept within ICANN (except the application evaluation which must be outsourced).
I believe that this is supposed to say that ICANN establishes a captive foundation as a subsidiary.
Having done exactly that at ISOC, I can say that for the CCWG's purposes, giving away a one-time pile of money, this mechanism is inferior in every way to mechanism A. It costs more, takes longer, has a lot more bureaucratic overhead, and can do no more or no less than mechanism A. As Alan notes, it has no tax benefits. It is a waste of everyone's time to pursue it further.
If anyone has a concrete reason why they believe this would be a good idea, and is reasonably familiar with US non-profit tax law so they understand what's involved, I would like to hear about it.
R's, John
PS: ISOC's situation is quite different and it makes sense for us. If anyone wants details write me privately.
_______________________________________________ Ccwg-auctionproceeds mailing list Ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ccwg-auctionproceeds _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified. Thank you.
_______________________________________________ Ccwg-auctionproceeds mailing list Ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ccwg-auctionproceeds _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
The point is that ICANN can create a structure/department that can act autonomously
I'm sorry, but that completely misses the point of PTI. It exists as a separate subsidiary because it has multiple clients: the RIRs, the IETF, and ICANN. As I may have mentioned once or twice, that's irrelevant to this CCWG. ICANN can authorize a department to act however it wants so long as it complies with ICANN's mission and US and California law. There is no need to add extra layers of corporate or other structure. All that's needed is a resolution from the board setting it up. By the way, Alan reminded me that I conflated options B and C. The captive foundation is option C. Option B, is as far as I can tell, the same as option A with extra layers of bureaucracy which, of course, would again add complexity with no advantage to anyone. The only option that makes any sense is A. R's, John
On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 5:58 AM John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
PTI's structure and functions have no relationship to the ccwg's. I do not understand why people keep bringing it up.
PTI does administrative activities under contract to icann and others. It does nothing even a little bit like giving out grants.
To further refine John's statement, the internal organizational structure of ICANN is within the CEO's power to determine and does not require Board action or resolution, so long as the CEO is acting within his Bylaws-granted and Board delegated powers. ____ Samantha Eisner Deputy General Counsel, ICANN 12025 Waterfront Drive, Suite 300 Los Angeles, California 90094 USA Direct Dial: +1 310 578 8631 ________________________________________ From: Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2019 10:13 AM To: Maureen Hilyard Cc: CCWG Auction Proceeds Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] New Deadline - 26 July 2019 - input on updated draft Final Report and outstanding questions
The point is that ICANN can create a structure/department that can act autonomously
I'm sorry, but that completely misses the point of PTI. It exists as a separate subsidiary because it has multiple clients: the RIRs, the IETF, and ICANN. As I may have mentioned once or twice, that's irrelevant to this CCWG. ICANN can authorize a department to act however it wants so long as it complies with ICANN's mission and US and California law. There is no need to add extra layers of corporate or other structure. All that's needed is a resolution from the board setting it up. By the way, Alan reminded me that I conflated options B and C. The captive foundation is option C. Option B, is as far as I can tell, the same as option A with extra layers of bureaucracy which, of course, would again add complexity with no advantage to anyone. The only option that makes any sense is A. R's, John
On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 5:58 AM John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
PTI's structure and functions have no relationship to the ccwg's. I do not understand why people keep bringing it up.
PTI does administrative activities under contract to icann and others. It does nothing even a little bit like giving out grants.
_______________________________________________ Ccwg-auctionproceeds mailing list Ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ccwg-auctionproceeds _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_privacy_p... ) and the website Terms of Service (https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_privacy_t... ). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
participants (5)
-
Alan Greenberg -
John Levine -
marienoemie.marques＠orange.com -
Maureen Hilyard -
Samantha Eisner