Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism
Following on from the last CCWG call and the input received on the individual appeals mechanism, please find attached an updated proposal for your review. Please share any comments, concerns or suggestions you may have in advance of the next CCWG meeting which has been scheduled for Wednesday 21 August.
It's OK to have an appeal process but this leaves some rather important questions open, e.g. * Who pays for the appeal? Is it like UDRP where the parties split the cost, or is it all ICANN? * I expect that no matter what we say, most appeals will in fact be applicants who are unhappy that they didn't get funded. Is there a way to dispose of obviously bogus appeals efficiently? Obviously bogus means things like not identifying any process failure other than saying no. Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
I agree with John. I do not think that we should have an appeal process. That being said, if we MUST have one it should: - be VERY light weight; - there must be VERY tight time requirements for submission - go to the manager of the selection group with the final result being final; - the final result being the project is accepted or still rejected. Specifically, there should be no "reason" given (as has recently been suggested). Note that we may end up rejecting perfectly good projects. But they may not, in the view of the evaluators, have a sufficiently high benefit:cost ration. Or we may simply have used up all of our funds for that period on projects that were better! As John mentions, cost is an issue. If there is an appeal process, and the cost is minimal or zero, it will be used by pretty much everyone who is rejected, significantly increasing the cost of the program with little positive outcome. That being said, grant applicants, both accepted and rejected, should be requested to fill out a survey with their input being used for the annul review of the program. Alan At 16/08/2019 09:46 PM, John R Levine wrote:
Are we going to just ignore the input from people who actually run such grant making organizations @Sylvia Cadena<mailto:sylvia@apnic.net> has weighed in on this with some factual statements that we seem to have just glossed over?
I am a trustee of the Internet Society, where we have recently set up an actual captive grant making foundation with no appeal process, so no, we are not. It's a bad idea. R's, John At 15/08/2019 09:32 AM, John R Levine wrote:
Following on from the last CCWG call and the input received on the individual appeals mechanism, please find attached an updated proposal for your review. Please share any comments, concerns or suggestions you may have in advance of the next CCWG meeting which has been scheduled for Wednesday 21 August.
It's OK to have an appeal process but this leaves some rather important questions open, e.g.
* Who pays for the appeal? Is it like UDRP where the parties split the cost, or is it all ICANN?
* I expect that no matter what we say, most appeals will in fact be applicants who are unhappy that they didn't get funded. Is there a way to dispose of obviously bogus appeals efficiently? Obviously bogus means things like not identifying any process failure other than saying no.
Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly _______________________________________________ Ccwg-auctionproceeds mailing list Ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ccwg-auctionproceeds _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
"That being said, grant applicants, both accepted and rejected, should be requested to fill out a survey with their input being used for the annul review of the program." End quote. This makes a lot of sense to me, given the the independent nature of the grant process being tabled. The strength of the selection process should be of sufficient integrity to forgo the additional cost of an appeals procedure which could be quite detrimental to the expected outcome and purpose of the grants. My view currently is to stay away from appeal procedures of all kinds; and fine tune the mechanisms to ensure that grant awards stay well within pre established control lines. There are already review mechanisms, designed to keep the process in line with ICANN's mission and purpose. I am thinking that in the context of an independent body, and the relative size of the fund, and the advice of others on this d list, no appeal process is going to be "very light weight" . I think, we should keep it out of the equation if at all possible. Each funding call should be drafted with this in mind... RD On Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 22:21 Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> wrote:
I agree with John. I do not think that we should have an appeal process. That being said, if we MUST have one it should:
- be VERY light weight; - there must be VERY tight time requirements for submission - go to the manager of the selection group with the final result being final; - the final result being the project is accepted or still rejected. Specifically, there should be no "reason" given (as has recently been suggested).
Note that we may end up rejecting perfectly good projects. But they may not, in the view of the evaluators, have a sufficiently high benefit:cost ration. Or we may simply have used up all of our funds for that period on projects that were better!
As John mentions, cost is an issue. If there is an appeal process, and the cost is minimal or zero, it will be used by pretty much everyone who is rejected, significantly increasing the cost of the program with little positive outcome.
That being said, grant applicants, both accepted and rejected, should be requested to fill out a survey with their input being used for the annul review of the program.
Alan
At 16/08/2019 09:46 PM, John R Levine wrote:
Are we going to just ignore the input from people who actually run such grant making organizations @Sylvia Cadena<mailto:sylvia@apnic.net> has weighed in on this with some factual statements that we seem to have just glossed over?
I am a trustee of the Internet Society, where we have recently set up an actual captive grant making foundation with no appeal process, so no, we are not. It's a bad idea.
R's, John
At 15/08/2019 09:32 AM, John R Levine wrote:
Following on from the last CCWG call and the input received on the individual appeals mechanism, please find attached an updated proposal for your review. Please share any comments, concerns or suggestions you may have in advance of the next CCWG meeting which has been scheduled for Wednesday 21 August.
It's OK to have an appeal process but this leaves some rather important questions open, e.g.
* Who pays for the appeal? Is it like UDRP where the parties split the cost, or is it all ICANN?
* I expect that no matter what we say, most appeals will in fact be applicants who are unhappy that they didn't get funded. Is there a way to dispose of obviously bogus appeals efficiently? Obviously bogus means things like not identifying any process failure other than saying no.
Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly _______________________________________________ Ccwg-auctionproceeds mailing list Ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ccwg-auctionproceeds _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ Ccwg-auctionproceeds mailing list Ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ccwg-auctionproceeds _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Make sense to me too. I was against an appeal as I said early on since that is the way all R&D grants here works and the independent panel and their report make the not appeal alternative accountable to the society. Not having appellation makes the process quicker allowing the start up of the projects while it makes sense due the development of the technology in the ICT field as is the case of DNS related issues Vanda Scartezini Sent from my iPad Sorry for any typos and misspellings On 17 Aug 2019, at 00:02, Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com<mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com>> wrote: "That being said, grant applicants, both accepted and rejected, should be requested to fill out a survey with their input being used for the annul review of the program." End quote. This makes a lot of sense to me, given the the independent nature of the grant process being tabled. The strength of the selection process should be of sufficient integrity to forgo the additional cost of an appeals procedure which could be quite detrimental to the expected outcome and purpose of the grants. My view currently is to stay away from appeal procedures of all kinds; and fine tune the mechanisms to ensure that grant awards stay well within pre established control lines. There are already review mechanisms, designed to keep the process in line with ICANN's mission and purpose. I am thinking that in the context of an independent body, and the relative size of the fund, and the advice of others on this d list, no appeal process is going to be "very light weight" . I think, we should keep it out of the equation if at all possible. Each funding call should be drafted with this in mind... RD On Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 22:21 Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca<mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca>> wrote: I agree with John. I do not think that we should have an appeal process. That being said, if we MUST have one it should: - be VERY light weight; - there must be VERY tight time requirements for submission - go to the manager of the selection group with the final result being final; - the final result being the project is accepted or still rejected. Specifically, there should be no "reason" given (as has recently been suggested). Note that we may end up rejecting perfectly good projects. But they may not, in the view of the evaluators, have a sufficiently high benefit:cost ration. Or we may simply have used up all of our funds for that period on projects that were better! As John mentions, cost is an issue. If there is an appeal process, and the cost is minimal or zero, it will be used by pretty much everyone who is rejected, significantly increasing the cost of the program with little positive outcome. That being said, grant applicants, both accepted and rejected, should be requested to fill out a survey with their input being used for the annul review of the program. Alan At 16/08/2019 09:46 PM, John R Levine wrote:
Are we going to just ignore the input from people who actually run such grant making organizations @Sylvia Cadena<mailto:sylvia@apnic.net<mailto:sylvia@apnic.net>> has weighed in on this with some factual statements that we seem to have just glossed over?
I am a trustee of the Internet Society, where we have recently set up an actual captive grant making foundation with no appeal process, so no, we are not. It's a bad idea. R's, John At 15/08/2019 09:32 AM, John R Levine wrote:
Following on from the last CCWG call and the input received on the individual appeals mechanism, please find attached an updated proposal for your review. Please share any comments, concerns or suggestions you may have in advance of the next CCWG meeting which has been scheduled for Wednesday 21 August.
It's OK to have an appeal process but this leaves some rather important questions open, e.g.
* Who pays for the appeal? Is it like UDRP where the parties split the cost, or is it all ICANN?
* I expect that no matter what we say, most appeals will in fact be applicants who are unhappy that they didn't get funded. Is there a way to dispose of obviously bogus appeals efficiently? Obviously bogus means things like not identifying any process failure other than saying no.
Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com<mailto:johnl@iecc.com>, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly _______________________________________________ Ccwg-auctionproceeds mailing list Ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org<mailto:Ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ccwg-auctionproceeds _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ Ccwg-auctionproceeds mailing list Ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org<mailto:Ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ccwg-auctionproceeds _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ Ccwg-auctionproceeds mailing list Ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org<mailto:Ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ccwg-auctionproceeds _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Wow, are we seeing "general" support for no appeal mechanism? Perhaps we can put this sort of to 'bed'? Add something in our documentation - discussed extensively; considered; recommend that an appeal mechanism is not needed, and would add unneeded complexity, and include a paragraph of explanation, so that in the public comment process, the community commenting feels fully informed? ________________________________ From: Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Vanda Scartezini <vanda@scartezini.org> Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 12:12 AM To: Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com> Cc: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com>; CCWG Auction Proceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism Make sense to me too. I was against an appeal as I said early on since that is the way all R&D grants here works and the independent panel and their report make the not appeal alternative accountable to the society. Not having appellation makes the process quicker allowing the start up of the projects while it makes sense due the development of the technology in the ICT field as is the case of DNS related issues Vanda Scartezini Sent from my iPad Sorry for any typos and misspellings On 17 Aug 2019, at 00:02, Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com<mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com>> wrote: "That being said, grant applicants, both accepted and rejected, should be requested to fill out a survey with their input being used for the annul review of the program." End quote. This makes a lot of sense to me, given the the independent nature of the grant process being tabled. The strength of the selection process should be of sufficient integrity to forgo the additional cost of an appeals procedure which could be quite detrimental to the expected outcome and purpose of the grants. My view currently is to stay away from appeal procedures of all kinds; and fine tune the mechanisms to ensure that grant awards stay well within pre established control lines. There are already review mechanisms, designed to keep the process in line with ICANN's mission and purpose. I am thinking that in the context of an independent body, and the relative size of the fund, and the advice of others on this d list, no appeal process is going to be "very light weight" . I think, we should keep it out of the equation if at all possible. Each funding call should be drafted with this in mind... RD On Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 22:21 Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca<mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca>> wrote: I agree with John. I do not think that we should have an appeal process. That being said, if we MUST have one it should: - be VERY light weight; - there must be VERY tight time requirements for submission - go to the manager of the selection group with the final result being final; - the final result being the project is accepted or still rejected. Specifically, there should be no "reason" given (as has recently been suggested). Note that we may end up rejecting perfectly good projects. But they may not, in the view of the evaluators, have a sufficiently high benefit:cost ration. Or we may simply have used up all of our funds for that period on projects that were better! As John mentions, cost is an issue. If there is an appeal process, and the cost is minimal or zero, it will be used by pretty much everyone who is rejected, significantly increasing the cost of the program with little positive outcome. That being said, grant applicants, both accepted and rejected, should be requested to fill out a survey with their input being used for the annul review of the program. Alan At 16/08/2019 09:46 PM, John R Levine wrote:
Are we going to just ignore the input from people who actually run such grant making organizations @Sylvia Cadena<mailto:sylvia@apnic.net<mailto:sylvia@apnic.net>> has weighed in on this with some factual statements that we seem to have just glossed over?
I am a trustee of the Internet Society, where we have recently set up an actual captive grant making foundation with no appeal process, so no, we are not. It's a bad idea. R's, John At 15/08/2019 09:32 AM, John R Levine wrote:
Following on from the last CCWG call and the input received on the individual appeals mechanism, please find attached an updated proposal for your review. Please share any comments, concerns or suggestions you may have in advance of the next CCWG meeting which has been scheduled for Wednesday 21 August.
It's OK to have an appeal process but this leaves some rather important questions open, e.g.
* Who pays for the appeal? Is it like UDRP where the parties split the cost, or is it all ICANN?
* I expect that no matter what we say, most appeals will in fact be applicants who are unhappy that they didn't get funded. Is there a way to dispose of obviously bogus appeals efficiently? Obviously bogus means things like not identifying any process failure other than saying no.
Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com<mailto:johnl@iecc.com>, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fjl.ly&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cf0335de880ab40abc37608d722c929a2%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637016119694986707&sdata=V%2Bl7mZ3kPaK7iXq2Fs0CwUh%2BHrGQyWPJdLko%2BS9uoPw%3D&reserved=0> _______________________________________________ Ccwg-auctionproceeds mailing list Ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org<mailto:Ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ccwg-auctionproceeds<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmm.icann.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fccwg-auctionproceeds&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cf0335de880ab40abc37608d722c929a2%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637016119694996718&sdata=Ixv7Nn7h%2BBb9evLTSVEP6jzYTG4KX5stLTk8Ma%2F%2Fj1w%3D&reserved=0> _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icann.org%2Fprivacy%2Fpolicy&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cf0335de880ab40abc37608d722c929a2%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637016119695006723&sdata=kRiYGP3HWbBl4zenJs4jsj32EHBVi%2FFl6BnrGAv%2FhdQ%3D&reserved=0>) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icann.org%2Fprivacy%2Ftos&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cf0335de880ab40abc37608d722c929a2%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637016119695016734&sdata=%2FqodieXY9MTAfgnU9QGi88a06AbOzHM7OjrHaTByuCI%3D&reserved=0>). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
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I believe we have an agreement ... though we had such an agreement before but then Sam thought we should reconsider our understanding ... hopefully we can put this item to rest now. Erika Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 17, 2019, at 12:21 PM, Marilyn Cade <marilynscade@hotmail.com> wrote:
Wow, are we seeing "general" support for no appeal mechanism?
Perhaps we can put this sort of to 'bed'?
Add something in our documentation - discussed extensively; considered; recommend that an appeal mechanism is not needed, and would add unneeded complexity, and include a paragraph of explanation, so that in the public comment process, the community commenting feels fully informed?
From: Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Vanda Scartezini <vanda@scartezini.org> Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 12:12 AM To: Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com> Cc: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com>; CCWG Auction Proceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism
Make sense to me too. I was against an appeal as I said early on since that is the way all R&D grants here works and the independent panel and their report make the not appeal alternative accountable to the society. Not having appellation makes the process quicker allowing the start up of the projects while it makes sense due the development of the technology in the ICT field as is the case of DNS related issues
Vanda Scartezini Sent from my iPad Sorry for any typos and misspellings
On 17 Aug 2019, at 00:02, Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com> wrote:
"That being said, grant applicants, both accepted and rejected, should be requested to fill out a survey with their input being used for the annul review of the program." End quote.
This makes a lot of sense to me, given the the independent nature of the grant process being tabled. The strength of the selection process should be of sufficient integrity to forgo the additional cost of an appeals procedure which could be quite detrimental to the expected outcome and purpose of the grants. My view currently is to stay away from appeal procedures of all kinds; and fine tune the mechanisms to ensure that grant awards stay well within pre established control lines. There are already review mechanisms, designed to keep the process in line with ICANN's mission and purpose. I am thinking that in the context of an independent body, and the relative size of the fund, and the advice of others on this d list, no appeal process is going to be "very light weight" .
I think, we should keep it out of the equation if at all possible. Each funding call should be drafted with this in mind... RD
On Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 22:21 Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> wrote: I agree with John. I do not think that we should have an appeal process. That being said, if we MUST have one it should:
- be VERY light weight; - there must be VERY tight time requirements for submission - go to the manager of the selection group with the final result being final; - the final result being the project is accepted or still rejected. Specifically, there should be no "reason" given (as has recently been suggested).
Note that we may end up rejecting perfectly good projects. But they may not, in the view of the evaluators, have a sufficiently high benefit:cost ration. Or we may simply have used up all of our funds for that period on projects that were better!
As John mentions, cost is an issue. If there is an appeal process, and the cost is minimal or zero, it will be used by pretty much everyone who is rejected, significantly increasing the cost of the program with little positive outcome.
That being said, grant applicants, both accepted and rejected, should be requested to fill out a survey with their input being used for the annul review of the program.
Alan
At 16/08/2019 09:46 PM, John R Levine wrote:
Are we going to just ignore the input from people who actually run such grant making organizations @Sylvia Cadena<mailto:sylvia@apnic.net> has weighed in on this with some factual statements that we seem to have just glossed over?
I am a trustee of the Internet Society, where we have recently set up an actual captive grant making foundation with no appeal process, so no, we are not. It's a bad idea.
R's, John
At 15/08/2019 09:32 AM, John R Levine wrote:
Following on from the last CCWG call and the input received on the individual appeals mechanism, please find attached an updated proposal for your review. Please share any comments, concerns or suggestions you may have in advance of the next CCWG meeting which has been scheduled for Wednesday 21 August.
It's OK to have an appeal process but this leaves some rather important questions open, e.g.
* Who pays for the appeal? Is it like UDRP where the parties split the cost, or is it all ICANN?
* I expect that no matter what we say, most appeals will in fact be applicants who are unhappy that they didn't get funded. Is there a way to dispose of obviously bogus appeals efficiently? Obviously bogus means things like not identifying any process failure other than saying no.
Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly _______________________________________________ Ccwg-auctionproceeds mailing list Ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ccwg-auctionproceeds _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
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Hi Erika I agree as well. Sylvia made some excellent points. While I like the idea of an appeals process I can see that it adds an extra layer of complexity to the grant process Best Judith Sent from my iPhone Judith@jhellerstein.com Skype ID:Judithhellerstein
On Aug 17, 2019, at 7:23 AM, Erika Mann <erika@erikamann.com> wrote:
I believe we have an agreement ... though we had such an agreement before but then Sam thought we should reconsider our understanding ... hopefully we can put this item to rest now.
Erika
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 17, 2019, at 12:21 PM, Marilyn Cade <marilynscade@hotmail.com> wrote:
Wow, are we seeing "general" support for no appeal mechanism?
Perhaps we can put this sort of to 'bed'?
Add something in our documentation - discussed extensively; considered; recommend that an appeal mechanism is not needed, and would add unneeded complexity, and include a paragraph of explanation, so that in the public comment process, the community commenting feels fully informed?
From: Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Vanda Scartezini <vanda@scartezini.org> Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 12:12 AM To: Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com> Cc: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com>; CCWG Auction Proceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism
Make sense to me too. I was against an appeal as I said early on since that is the way all R&D grants here works and the independent panel and their report make the not appeal alternative accountable to the society. Not having appellation makes the process quicker allowing the start up of the projects while it makes sense due the development of the technology in the ICT field as is the case of DNS related issues
Vanda Scartezini Sent from my iPad Sorry for any typos and misspellings
On 17 Aug 2019, at 00:02, Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com> wrote:
"That being said, grant applicants, both accepted and rejected, should be requested to fill out a survey with their input being used for the annul review of the program." End quote.
This makes a lot of sense to me, given the the independent nature of the grant process being tabled. The strength of the selection process should be of sufficient integrity to forgo the additional cost of an appeals procedure which could be quite detrimental to the expected outcome and purpose of the grants. My view currently is to stay away from appeal procedures of all kinds; and fine tune the mechanisms to ensure that grant awards stay well within pre established control lines. There are already review mechanisms, designed to keep the process in line with ICANN's mission and purpose. I am thinking that in the context of an independent body, and the relative size of the fund, and the advice of others on this d list, no appeal process is going to be "very light weight" .
I think, we should keep it out of the equation if at all possible. Each funding call should be drafted with this in mind... RD
On Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 22:21 Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> wrote: I agree with John. I do not think that we should have an appeal process. That being said, if we MUST have one it should:
- be VERY light weight; - there must be VERY tight time requirements for submission - go to the manager of the selection group with the final result being final; - the final result being the project is accepted or still rejected. Specifically, there should be no "reason" given (as has recently been suggested).
Note that we may end up rejecting perfectly good projects. But they may not, in the view of the evaluators, have a sufficiently high benefit:cost ration. Or we may simply have used up all of our funds for that period on projects that were better!
As John mentions, cost is an issue. If there is an appeal process, and the cost is minimal or zero, it will be used by pretty much everyone who is rejected, significantly increasing the cost of the program with little positive outcome.
That being said, grant applicants, both accepted and rejected, should be requested to fill out a survey with their input being used for the annul review of the program.
Alan
At 16/08/2019 09:46 PM, John R Levine wrote:
Are we going to just ignore the input from people who actually run such grant making organizations @Sylvia Cadena<mailto:sylvia@apnic.net> has weighed in on this with some factual statements that we seem to have just glossed over?
I am a trustee of the Internet Society, where we have recently set up an actual captive grant making foundation with no appeal process, so no, we are not. It's a bad idea.
R's, John
At 15/08/2019 09:32 AM, John R Levine wrote:
Following on from the last CCWG call and the input received on the individual appeals mechanism, please find attached an updated proposal for your review. Please share any comments, concerns or suggestions you may have in advance of the next CCWG meeting which has been scheduled for Wednesday 21 August.
It's OK to have an appeal process but this leaves some rather important questions open, e.g.
* Who pays for the appeal? Is it like UDRP where the parties split the cost, or is it all ICANN?
* I expect that no matter what we say, most appeals will in fact be applicants who are unhappy that they didn't get funded. Is there a way to dispose of obviously bogus appeals efficiently? Obviously bogus means things like not identifying any process failure other than saying no.
Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly _______________________________________________ Ccwg-auctionproceeds mailing list Ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ccwg-auctionproceeds _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ Ccwg-auctionproceeds mailing list Ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ccwg-auctionproceeds _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ Ccwg-auctionproceeds mailing list Ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ccwg-auctionproceeds _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
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It will be particularly important that the final report be clear that the CCWG does not believe that ICANN’s existing accountability mechanisms (ombuds, Reconsiderations, or IRP) should be available to challenge an adverse grant decision. Those mechanisms are not well suited to this kind of situation. From: Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com> Date: Saturday, August 17, 2019 at 9:14 PM To: Erika Mann <erika@erikamann.com> Cc: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com>, CCWG Auction Proceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism Hi Erika I agree as well. Sylvia made some excellent points. While I like the idea of an appeals process I can see that it adds an extra layer of complexity to the grant process Best Judith Sent from my iPhone Judith@jhellerstein.com<mailto:Judith@jhellerstein.com> Skype ID:Judithhellerstein On Aug 17, 2019, at 7:23 AM, Erika Mann <erika@erikamann.com<mailto:erika@erikamann.com>> wrote: I believe we have an agreement ... though we had such an agreement before but then Sam thought we should reconsider our understanding ... hopefully we can put this item to rest now. Erika Sent from my iPhone On Aug 17, 2019, at 12:21 PM, Marilyn Cade <marilynscade@hotmail.com<mailto:marilynscade@hotmail.com>> wrote: Wow, are we seeing "general" support for no appeal mechanism? Perhaps we can put this sort of to 'bed'? Add something in our documentation - discussed extensively; considered; recommend that an appeal mechanism is not needed, and would add unneeded complexity, and include a paragraph of explanation, so that in the public comment process, the community commenting feels fully informed? ________________________________ From: Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org<mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Vanda Scartezini <vanda@scartezini.org<mailto:vanda@scartezini.org>> Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 12:12 AM To: Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com<mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com>> Cc: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com<mailto:johnl@taugh.com>>; CCWG Auction Proceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org<mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism Make sense to me too. I was against an appeal as I said early on since that is the way all R&D grants here works and the independent panel and their report make the not appeal alternative accountable to the society. Not having appellation makes the process quicker allowing the start up of the projects while it makes sense due the development of the technology in the ICT field as is the case of DNS related issues Vanda Scartezini Sent from my iPad Sorry for any typos and misspellings On 17 Aug 2019, at 00:02, Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com<mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com>> wrote: "That being said, grant applicants, both accepted and rejected, should be requested to fill out a survey with their input being used for the annul review of the program." End quote. This makes a lot of sense to me, given the the independent nature of the grant process being tabled. The strength of the selection process should be of sufficient integrity to forgo the additional cost of an appeals procedure which could be quite detrimental to the expected outcome and purpose of the grants. My view currently is to stay away from appeal procedures of all kinds; and fine tune the mechanisms to ensure that grant awards stay well within pre established control lines. There are already review mechanisms, designed to keep the process in line with ICANN's mission and purpose. I am thinking that in the context of an independent body, and the relative size of the fund, and the advice of others on this d list, no appeal process is going to be "very light weight" . I think, we should keep it out of the equation if at all possible. Each funding call should be drafted with this in mind... RD On Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 22:21 Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca<mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca>> wrote: I agree with John. I do not think that we should have an appeal process. That being said, if we MUST have one it should: - be VERY light weight; - there must be VERY tight time requirements for submission - go to the manager of the selection group with the final result being final; - the final result being the project is accepted or still rejected. Specifically, there should be no "reason" given (as has recently been suggested). Note that we may end up rejecting perfectly good projects. But they may not, in the view of the evaluators, have a sufficiently high benefit:cost ration. Or we may simply have used up all of our funds for that period on projects that were better! As John mentions, cost is an issue. If there is an appeal process, and the cost is minimal or zero, it will be used by pretty much everyone who is rejected, significantly increasing the cost of the program with little positive outcome. That being said, grant applicants, both accepted and rejected, should be requested to fill out a survey with their input being used for the annul review of the program. Alan At 16/08/2019 09:46 PM, John R Levine wrote:
Are we going to just ignore the input from people who actually run such grant making organizations @Sylvia Cadena<mailto:sylvia@apnic.net<mailto:sylvia@apnic.net>> has weighed in on this with some factual statements that we seem to have just glossed over?
I am a trustee of the Internet Society, where we have recently set up an actual captive grant making foundation with no appeal process, so no, we are not. It's a bad idea. R's, John At 15/08/2019 09:32 AM, John R Levine wrote:
Following on from the last CCWG call and the input received on the individual appeals mechanism, please find attached an updated proposal for your review. Please share any comments, concerns or suggestions you may have in advance of the next CCWG meeting which has been scheduled for Wednesday 21 August.
It's OK to have an appeal process but this leaves some rather important questions open, e.g.
* Who pays for the appeal? Is it like UDRP where the parties split the cost, or is it all ICANN?
* I expect that no matter what we say, most appeals will in fact be applicants who are unhappy that they didn't get funded. Is there a way to dispose of obviously bogus appeals efficiently? Obviously bogus means things like not identifying any process failure other than saying no.
Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com<mailto:johnl@iecc.com>, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fjl.ly&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cf0335de880ab40abc37608d722c929a2%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637016119694986707&sdata=V%2Bl7mZ3kPaK7iXq2Fs0CwUh%2BHrGQyWPJdLko%2BS9uoPw%3D&reserved=0> _______________________________________________ Ccwg-auctionproceeds mailing list Ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org<mailto:Ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ccwg-auctionproceeds<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmm.icann.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fccwg-auctionproceeds&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cf0335de880ab40abc37608d722c929a2%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637016119694996718&sdata=Ixv7Nn7h%2BBb9evLTSVEP6jzYTG4KX5stLTk8Ma%2F%2Fj1w%3D&reserved=0> _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icann.org%2Fprivacy%2Fpolicy&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cf0335de880ab40abc37608d722c929a2%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637016119695006723&sdata=kRiYGP3HWbBl4zenJs4jsj32EHBVi%2FFl6BnrGAv%2FhdQ%3D&reserved=0>) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icann.org%2Fprivacy%2Ftos&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cf0335de880ab40abc37608d722c929a2%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637016119695016734&sdata=%2FqodieXY9MTAfgnU9QGi88a06AbOzHM7OjrHaTByuCI%3D&reserved=0>). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
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My recollection is that we were pretty clear that the existing accountabilty mechanisms would not apply, and that it is possible that a fundamental Bylaw change would be required to do that. Alan -- Sent from my mobile. Please excuse brevity and typos. On August 19, 2019 12:05:18 PM EDT, Becky Burr <BBurr@hwglaw.com> wrote: It will be particularly important that the final report be clear that the CCWG does not believe that ICANN’s existing accountability mechanisms (ombuds, Reconsiderations, or IRP) should be available to challenge an adverse grant decision. Those mechanisms are not well suited to this kind of situation. From: Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com> Date: Saturday, August 17, 2019 at 9:14 PM To: Erika Mann <erika@erikamann.com> Cc: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com>, CCWG Auction Proceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism Hi Erika I agree as well. Sylvia made some excellent points. While I like the idea of an appeals process I can see that it adds an extra layer of complexity to the grant process Best Judith Sent from my iPhone Judith@jhellerstein.com<mailto:Judith@jhellerstein.com> Skype ID:Judithhellerstein On Aug 17, 2019, at 7:23 AM, Erika Mann <erika@erikamann.com<mailto:erika@erikamann.com>> wrote: I believe we have an agreement ... though we had such an agreement before but then Sam thought we should reconsider our understanding ... hopefully we can put this item to rest now. Erika Sent from my iPhone On Aug 17, 2019, at 12:21 PM, Marilyn Cade <marilynscade@hotmail.com<mailto:marilynscade@hotmail.com>> wrote: Wow, are we seeing "general" support for no appeal mechanism? Perhaps we can put this sort of to 'bed'? Add something in our documentation - discussed extensively; considered; recommend that an appeal mechanism is not needed, and would add unneeded complexity, and include a paragraph of explanation, so that in the public comment process, the community commenting feels fully informed? ________________________________ From: Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org<mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Vanda Scartezini <vanda@scartezini.org<mailto:vanda@scartezini.org>> Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 12:12 AM To: Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com<mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com>> Cc: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com<mailto:johnl@taugh.com>>; CCWG Auction Proceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org<mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism Make sense to me too. I was against an appeal as I said early on since that is the way all R&D grants here works and the independent panel and their report make the not appeal alternative accountable to the society. Not having appellation makes the process quicker allowing the start up of the projects while it makes sense due the development of the technology in the ICT field as is the case of DNS related issues Vanda Scartezini Sent from my iPad Sorry for any typos and misspellings On 17 Aug 2019, at 00:02, Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com<mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com>> wrote: "That being said, grant applicants, both accepted and rejected, should be requested to fill out a survey with their input being used for the annul review of the program." End quote. This makes a lot of sense to me, given the the independent nature of the grant process being tabled. The strength of the selection process should be of sufficient integrity to forgo the additional cost of an appeals procedure which could be quite detrimental to the expected outcome and purpose of the grants. My view currently is to stay away from appeal procedures of all kinds; and fine tune the mechanisms to ensure that grant awards stay well within pre established control lines. There are already review mechanisms, designed to keep the process in line with ICANN's mission and purpose. I am thinking that in the context of an independent body, and the relative size of the fund, and the advice of others on this d list, no appeal process is going to be "very light weight" . I think, we should keep it out of the equation if at all possible. Each funding call should be drafted with this in mind... RD On Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 22:21 Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca<mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca>> wrote: I agree with John. I do not think that we should have an appeal process. That being said, if we MUST have one it should: - be VERY light weight; - there must be VERY tight time requirements for submission - go to the manager of the selection group with the final result being final; - the final result being the project is accepted or still rejected. Specifically, there should be no "reason" given (as has recently been suggested). Note that we may end up rejecting perfectly good projects. But they may not, in the view of the evaluators, have a sufficiently high benefit:cost ration. Or we may simply have used up all of our funds for that period on projects that were better! As John mentions, cost is an issue. If there is an appeal process, and the cost is minimal or zero, it will be used by pretty much everyone who is rejected, significantly increasing the cost of the program with little positive outcome. That being said, grant applicants, both accepted and rejected, should be requested to fill out a survey with their input being used for the annul review of the program. Alan At 16/08/2019 09:46 PM, John R Levine wrote: Are we going to just ignore the input from people who actually run such grant making organizations @Sylvia Cadena<mailto:sylvia@apnic.net<mailto:sylvia@apnic.net>> has weighed in on this with some factual statements that we seem to have just glossed over? I am a trustee of the Internet Society, where we have recently set up an actual captive grant making foundation with no appeal process, so no, we are not. It's a bad idea. R's, John At 15/08/2019 09:32 AM, John R Levine wrote: Following on from the last CCWG call and the input received on the individual appeals mechanism, please find attached an updated proposal for your review. Please share any comments, concerns or suggestions you may have in advance of the next CCWG meeting which has been scheduled for Wednesday 21 August. It's OK to have an appeal process but this leaves some rather important questions open, e.g. * Who pays for the appeal? Is it like UDRP where the parties split the cost, or is it all ICANN? * I expect that no matter what we say, most appeals will in fact be applicants who are unhappy that they didn't get funded. Is there a way to dispose of obviously bogus appeals efficiently? Obviously bogus means things like not identifying any process failure other than saying no. 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Dear All, Thank you all for your input. Hereby the current language of the draft Final Report which already addressed the point of the existing accountability mechanism with added in bold and brackets new language which aims to reflect the input received to date: The CCWG discussed whether an appeals mechanism should be available for applicant not selected and/but agreed that [this would create a level of complexity that was deemed not desirable or necessary, after having reviewed how other organizations deal with appeals. Instead, it is the expectation that applicants not selected would receive feedback as part of the response to their application outlining the reasons for why their application was not selected. Also, in the context of the regular review of the mechanisms, both selected applicants and non-selected applicants should be invited to participate and provide any feedback they may have on how the program can be further improved]. The CCWG did agree that appropriate measures should be taken that would exclude applicants from using ICANN accountability measures such as IRP. The reason for this recommendation is that the Board decision in this context would be in relation to the disbursement of funds based on the recommendations of the independent evaluation panel and not as a result of the ICANN’s Board assessment of an individual application. This should not necessarily prevent applicants from seeking redress through other means as defined by the mechanism responsible for disbursement of auction proceeds. CCWG Recommendation #NEW: Applicants should not have access to ICANN accountability mechanisms such as IRP to challenge a decision from the independent evaluation panel to not approve their application, but applicants [not selected should receive feedback as part of the response to their application outlining the reasons for why their application was not selected] have a mechanism available that allows them to provide additional clarifications to the independent evaluation panel or flag if it is believed that something in the application was misunderstood or missed. This will be on the agenda for Wednesday’s meeting so if you have any concerns about the proposed edits, please share these in advance of Wednesday’s meeting. Best regards, Marika From: Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> Date: Monday, August 19, 2019 at 10:22 To: "ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org" <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org>, Becky Burr <BBurr@hwglaw.com>, Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com>, "erika@erikamann.com" <erika@erikamann.com> Cc: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com>, "ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org" <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism My recollection is that we were pretty clear that the existing accountabilty mechanisms would not apply, and that it is possible that a fundamental Bylaw change would be required to do that. Alan -- Sent from my mobile. Please excuse brevity and typos. On August 19, 2019 12:05:18 PM EDT, Becky Burr <BBurr@hwglaw.com> wrote: It will be particularly important that the final report be clear that the CCWG does not believe that ICANN’s existing accountability mechanisms (ombuds, Reconsiderations, or IRP) should be available to challenge an adverse grant decision. Those mechanisms are not well suited to this kind of situation. From: Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com> Date: Saturday, August 17, 2019 at 9:14 PM To: Erika Mann <erika@erikamann.com> Cc: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com>, CCWG Auction Proceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism Hi Erika I agree as well. Sylvia made some excellent points. While I like the idea of an appeals process I can see that it adds an extra layer of complexity to the grant process Best Judith Sent from my iPhone Judith@jhellerstein.com<mailto:Judith@jhellerstein.com> Skype ID:Judithhellerstein On Aug 17, 2019, at 7:23 AM, Erika Mann <erika@erikamann.com<mailto:erika@erikamann.com>> wrote: I believe we have an agreement ... though we had such an agreement before but then Sam thought we should reconsider our understanding ... hopefully we can put this item to rest now. Erika Sent from my iPhone On Aug 17, 2019, at 12:21 PM, Marilyn Cade <marilynscade@hotmail.com<mailto:marilynscade@hotmail.com>> wrote: Wow, are we seeing "general" support for no appeal mechanism? Perhaps we can put this sort of to 'bed'? Add something in our documentation - discussed extensively; considered; recommend that an appeal mechanism is not needed, and would add unneeded complexity, and include a paragraph of explanation, so that in the public comment process, the community commenting feels fully informed? ________________________________ From: Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org<mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Vanda Scartezini <vanda@scartezini.org<mailto:vanda@scartezini.org>> Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 12:12 AM To: Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com<mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com>> Cc: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com<mailto:johnl@taugh.com>>; CCWG Auction Proceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org<mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism Make sense to me too. I was against an appeal as I said early on since that is the way all R&D grants here works and the independent panel and their report make the not appeal alternative accountable to the society. Not having appellation makes the process quicker allowing the start up of the projects while it makes sense due the development of the technology in the ICT field as is the case of DNS related issues Vanda Scartezini Sent from my iPad Sorry for any typos and misspellings On 17 Aug 2019, at 00:02, Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com<mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com>> wrote: "That being said, grant applicants, both accepted and rejected, should be requested to fill out a survey with their input being used for the annul review of the program." End quote. This makes a lot of sense to me, given the the independent nature of the grant process being tabled. The strength of the selection process should be of sufficient integrity to forgo the additional cost of an appeals procedure which could be quite detrimental to the expected outcome and purpose of the grants. My view currently is to stay away from appeal procedures of all kinds; and fine tune the mechanisms to ensure that grant awards stay well within pre established control lines. There are already review mechanisms, designed to keep the process in line with ICANN's mission and purpose. I am thinking that in the context of an independent body, and the relative size of the fund, and the advice of others on this d list, no appeal process is going to be "very light weight" . I think, we should keep it out of the equation if at all possible. Each funding call should be drafted with this in mind... RD On Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 22:21 Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca<mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca>> wrote: I agree with John. I do not think that we should have an appeal process. That being said, if we MUST have one it should: - be VERY light weight; - there must be VERY tight time requirements for submission - go to the manager of the selection group with the final result being final; - the final result being the project is accepted or still rejected. Specifically, there should be no "reason" given (as has recently been suggested). Note that we may end up rejecting perfectly good projects. But they may not, in the view of the evaluators, have a sufficiently high benefit:cost ration. Or we may simply have used up all of our funds for that period on projects that were better! As John mentions, cost is an issue. If there is an appeal process, and the cost is minimal or zero, it will be used by pretty much everyone who is rejected, significantly increasing the cost of the program with little positive outcome. That being said, grant applicants, both accepted and rejected, should be requested to fill out a survey with their input being used for the annul review of the program. Alan At 16/08/2019 09:46 PM, John R Levine wrote: Are we going to just ignore the input from people who actually run such grant making organizations @Sylvia Cadena<mailto:sylvia@apnic.net<mailto:sylvia@apnic.net>> has weighed in on this with some factual statements that we seem to have just glossed over? I am a trustee of the Internet Society, where we have recently set up an actual captive grant making foundation with no appeal process, so no, we are not. It's a bad idea. R's, John At 15/08/2019 09:32 AM, John R Levine wrote: Following on from the last CCWG call and the input received on the individual appeals mechanism, please find attached an updated proposal for your review. Please share any comments, concerns or suggestions you may have in advance of the next CCWG meeting which has been scheduled for Wednesday 21 August. It's OK to have an appeal process but this leaves some rather important questions open, e.g. * Who pays for the appeal? Is it like UDRP where the parties split the cost, or is it all ICANN? * I expect that no matter what we say, most appeals will in fact be applicants who are unhappy that they didn't get funded. Is there a way to dispose of obviously bogus appeals efficiently? Obviously bogus means things like not identifying any process failure other than saying no. 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Great appreciation for the staff incorporation of the input/discussions online! M ________________________________ From: Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Marika Konings <marika.konings@icann.org> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 12:54 PM To: Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca>; ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org>; Becky Burr <BBurr@hwglaw.com>; Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com>; erika@erikamann.com <erika@erikamann.com> Cc: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism Dear All, Thank you all for your input. Hereby the current language of the draft Final Report which already addressed the point of the existing accountability mechanism with added in bold and brackets new language which aims to reflect the input received to date: The CCWG discussed whether an appeals mechanism should be available for applicant not selected and/but agreed that [this would create a level of complexity that was deemed not desirable or necessary, after having reviewed how other organizations deal with appeals. Instead, it is the expectation that applicants not selected would receive feedback as part of the response to their application outlining the reasons for why their application was not selected. Also, in the context of the regular review of the mechanisms, both selected applicants and non-selected applicants should be invited to participate and provide any feedback they may have on how the program can be further improved]. The CCWG did agree that appropriate measures should be taken that would exclude applicants from using ICANN accountability measures such as IRP. The reason for this recommendation is that the Board decision in this context would be in relation to the disbursement of funds based on the recommendations of the independent evaluation panel and not as a result of the ICANN’s Board assessment of an individual application. This should not necessarily prevent applicants from seeking redress through other means as defined by the mechanism responsible for disbursement of auction proceeds. CCWG Recommendation #NEW: Applicants should not have access to ICANN accountability mechanisms such as IRP to challenge a decision from the independent evaluation panel to not approve their application, but applicants [not selected should receive feedback as part of the response to their application outlining the reasons for why their application was not selected] have a mechanism available that allows them to provide additional clarifications to the independent evaluation panel or flag if it is believed that something in the application was misunderstood or missed. This will be on the agenda for Wednesday’s meeting so if you have any concerns about the proposed edits, please share these in advance of Wednesday’s meeting. Best regards, Marika From: Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> Date: Monday, August 19, 2019 at 10:22 To: "ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org" <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org>, Becky Burr <BBurr@hwglaw.com>, Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com>, "erika@erikamann.com" <erika@erikamann.com> Cc: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com>, "ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org" <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism My recollection is that we were pretty clear that the existing accountabilty mechanisms would not apply, and that it is possible that a fundamental Bylaw change would be required to do that. Alan -- Sent from my mobile. Please excuse brevity and typos. On August 19, 2019 12:05:18 PM EDT, Becky Burr <BBurr@hwglaw.com> wrote: It will be particularly important that the final report be clear that the CCWG does not believe that ICANN’s existing accountability mechanisms (ombuds, Reconsiderations, or IRP) should be available to challenge an adverse grant decision. Those mechanisms are not well suited to this kind of situation. From: Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com> Date: Saturday, August 17, 2019 at 9:14 PM To: Erika Mann <erika@erikamann.com> Cc: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com>, CCWG Auction Proceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism Hi Erika I agree as well. Sylvia made some excellent points. While I like the idea of an appeals process I can see that it adds an extra layer of complexity to the grant process Best Judith Sent from my iPhone Judith@jhellerstein.com<mailto:Judith@jhellerstein.com> Skype ID:Judithhellerstein On Aug 17, 2019, at 7:23 AM, Erika Mann <erika@erikamann.com<mailto:erika@erikamann.com>> wrote: I believe we have an agreement ... though we had such an agreement before but then Sam thought we should reconsider our understanding ... hopefully we can put this item to rest now. Erika Sent from my iPhone On Aug 17, 2019, at 12:21 PM, Marilyn Cade <marilynscade@hotmail.com<mailto:marilynscade@hotmail.com>> wrote: Wow, are we seeing "general" support for no appeal mechanism? Perhaps we can put this sort of to 'bed'? Add something in our documentation - discussed extensively; considered; recommend that an appeal mechanism is not needed, and would add unneeded complexity, and include a paragraph of explanation, so that in the public comment process, the community commenting feels fully informed? ________________________________ From: Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org<mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Vanda Scartezini <vanda@scartezini.org<mailto:vanda@scartezini.org>> Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 12:12 AM To: Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com<mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com>> Cc: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com<mailto:johnl@taugh.com>>; CCWG Auction Proceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org<mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism Make sense to me too. I was against an appeal as I said early on since that is the way all R&D grants here works and the independent panel and their report make the not appeal alternative accountable to the society. Not having appellation makes the process quicker allowing the start up of the projects while it makes sense due the development of the technology in the ICT field as is the case of DNS related issues Vanda Scartezini Sent from my iPad Sorry for any typos and misspellings On 17 Aug 2019, at 00:02, Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com<mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com>> wrote: "That being said, grant applicants, both accepted and rejected, should be requested to fill out a survey with their input being used for the annul review of the program." End quote. This makes a lot of sense to me, given the the independent nature of the grant process being tabled. The strength of the selection process should be of sufficient integrity to forgo the additional cost of an appeals procedure which could be quite detrimental to the expected outcome and purpose of the grants. My view currently is to stay away from appeal procedures of all kinds; and fine tune the mechanisms to ensure that grant awards stay well within pre established control lines. There are already review mechanisms, designed to keep the process in line with ICANN's mission and purpose. I am thinking that in the context of an independent body, and the relative size of the fund, and the advice of others on this d list, no appeal process is going to be "very light weight" . I think, we should keep it out of the equation if at all possible. Each funding call should be drafted with this in mind... RD On Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 22:21 Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca<mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca>> wrote: I agree with John. I do not think that we should have an appeal process. That being said, if we MUST have one it should: - be VERY light weight; - there must be VERY tight time requirements for submission - go to the manager of the selection group with the final result being final; - the final result being the project is accepted or still rejected. Specifically, there should be no "reason" given (as has recently been suggested). Note that we may end up rejecting perfectly good projects. But they may not, in the view of the evaluators, have a sufficiently high benefit:cost ration. Or we may simply have used up all of our funds for that period on projects that were better! As John mentions, cost is an issue. If there is an appeal process, and the cost is minimal or zero, it will be used by pretty much everyone who is rejected, significantly increasing the cost of the program with little positive outcome. That being said, grant applicants, both accepted and rejected, should be requested to fill out a survey with their input being used for the annul review of the program. Alan At 16/08/2019 09:46 PM, John R Levine wrote: Are we going to just ignore the input from people who actually run such grant making organizations @Sylvia Cadena<mailto:sylvia@apnic.net<mailto:sylvia@apnic.net>> has weighed in on this with some factual statements that we seem to have just glossed over? I am a trustee of the Internet Society, where we have recently set up an actual captive grant making foundation with no appeal process, so no, we are not. It's a bad idea. R's, John At 15/08/2019 09:32 AM, John R Levine wrote: Following on from the last CCWG call and the input received on the individual appeals mechanism, please find attached an updated proposal for your review. Please share any comments, concerns or suggestions you may have in advance of the next CCWG meeting which has been scheduled for Wednesday 21 August. It's OK to have an appeal process but this leaves some rather important questions open, e.g. * Who pays for the appeal? Is it like UDRP where the parties split the cost, or is it all ICANN? * I expect that no matter what we say, most appeals will in fact be applicants who are unhappy that they didn't get funded. Is there a way to dispose of obviously bogus appeals efficiently? Obviously bogus means things like not identifying any process failure other than saying no. 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On Mon, 19 Aug 2019, Marilyn Cade wrote:
Great appreciation for the staff incorporation of the input/discussions online!
Yes, this is a good summary.
________________________________ From: Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Marika Konings <marika.konings@icann.org> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 12:54 PM To: Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca>; ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org>; Becky Burr <BBurr@hwglaw.com>; Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com>; erika@erikamann.com <erika@erikamann.com> Cc: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism
Dear All,
Thank you all for your input. Hereby the current language of the draft Final Report which already addressed the point of the existing accountability mechanism with added in bold and brackets new language which aims to reflect the input received to date:
The CCWG discussed whether an appeals mechanism should be available for applicant not selected and/but agreed that [this would create a level of complexity that was deemed not desirable or necessary, after having reviewed how other organizations deal with appeals. Instead, it is the expectation that applicants not selected would receive feedback as part of the response to their application outlining the reasons for why their application was not selected. Also, in the context of the regular review of the mechanisms, both selected applicants and non-selected applicants should be invited to participate and provide any feedback they may have on how the program can be further improved]. The CCWG did agree that appropriate measures should be taken that would exclude applicants from using ICANN accountability measures such as IRP. The reason for this recommendation is that the Board decision in this context would be in relation to the disbursement of funds based on the recommendations of the independent evaluation panel and not as a result of the ICANN’s Board assessment of an individual application. This should not necessarily prevent applicants from seeking redress through other means as defined by the mechanism responsible for disbursement of auction proceeds.
CCWG Recommendation #NEW: Applicants should not have access to ICANN accountability mechanisms such as IRP to challenge a decision from the independent evaluation panel to not approve their application, but applicants [not selected should receive feedback as part of the response to their application outlining the reasons for why their application was not selected] have a mechanism available that allows them to provide additional clarifications to the independent evaluation panel or flag if it is believed that something in the application was misunderstood or missed.
This will be on the agenda for Wednesday’s meeting so if you have any concerns about the proposed edits, please share these in advance of Wednesday’s meeting.
Best regards,
Marika
From: Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> Date: Monday, August 19, 2019 at 10:22 To: "ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org" <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org>, Becky Burr <BBurr@hwglaw.com>, Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com>, "erika@erikamann.com" <erika@erikamann.com> Cc: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com>, "ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org" <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism
My recollection is that we were pretty clear that the existing accountabilty mechanisms would not apply, and that it is possible that a fundamental Bylaw change would be required to do that.
Alan -- Sent from my mobile. Please excuse brevity and typos.
On August 19, 2019 12:05:18 PM EDT, Becky Burr <BBurr@hwglaw.com> wrote:
It will be particularly important that the final report be clear that the CCWG does not believe that ICANN’s existing accountability mechanisms (ombuds, Reconsiderations, or IRP) should be available to challenge an adverse grant decision. Those mechanisms are not well suited to this kind of situation.
From: Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com> Date: Saturday, August 17, 2019 at 9:14 PM To: Erika Mann <erika@erikamann.com> Cc: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com>, CCWG Auction Proceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism
Hi Erika I agree as well. Sylvia made some excellent points. While I like the idea of an appeals process I can see that it adds an extra layer of complexity to the grant process
Best Judith Sent from my iPhone Judith@jhellerstein.com<mailto:Judith@jhellerstein.com> Skype ID:Judithhellerstein
On Aug 17, 2019, at 7:23 AM, Erika Mann <erika@erikamann.com<mailto:erika@erikamann.com>> wrote: I believe we have an agreement ... though we had such an agreement before but then Sam thought we should reconsider our understanding ... hopefully we can put this item to rest now.
Erika Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 17, 2019, at 12:21 PM, Marilyn Cade <marilynscade@hotmail.com<mailto:marilynscade@hotmail.com>> wrote: Wow, are we seeing "general" support for no appeal mechanism?
Perhaps we can put this sort of to 'bed'?
Add something in our documentation - discussed extensively; considered; recommend that an appeal mechanism is not needed, and would add unneeded complexity, and include a paragraph of explanation, so that in the public comment process, the community commenting feels fully informed?
________________________________
From: Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org<mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Vanda Scartezini <vanda@scartezini.org<mailto:vanda@scartezini.org>> Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 12:12 AM To: Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com<mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com>> Cc: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com<mailto:johnl@taugh.com>>; CCWG Auction Proceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org<mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism
Make sense to me too. I was against an appeal as I said early on since that is the way all R&D grants here works and the independent panel and their report make the not appeal alternative accountable to the society. Not having appellation makes the process quicker allowing the start up of the projects while it makes sense due the development of the technology in the ICT field as is the case of DNS related issues
Vanda Scartezini Sent from my iPad Sorry for any typos and misspellings
On 17 Aug 2019, at 00:02, Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com<mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com>> wrote: "That being said, grant applicants, both accepted and rejected, should be requested to fill out a survey with their input being used for the annul review of the program." End quote.
This makes a lot of sense to me, given the the independent nature of the grant process being tabled. The strength of the selection process should be of sufficient integrity to forgo the additional cost of an appeals procedure which could be quite detrimental to the expected outcome and purpose of the grants. My view currently is to stay away from appeal procedures of all kinds; and fine tune the mechanisms to ensure that grant awards stay well within pre established control lines. There are already review mechanisms, designed to keep the process in line with ICANN's mission and purpose. I am thinking that in the context of an independent body, and the relative size of the fund, and the advice of others on this d list, no appeal process is going to be "very light weight" .
I think, we should keep it out of the equation if at all possible. Each funding call should be drafted with this in mind... RD
On Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 22:21 Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca<mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca>> wrote: I agree with John. I do not think that we should have an appeal process. That being said, if we MUST have one it should:
- be VERY light weight; - there must be VERY tight time requirements for submission - go to the manager of the selection group with the final result being final; - the final result being the project is accepted or still rejected. Specifically, there should be no "reason" given (as has recently been suggested).
Note that we may end up rejecting perfectly good projects. But they may not, in the view of the evaluators, have a sufficiently high benefit:cost ration. Or we may simply have used up all of our funds for that period on projects that were better!
As John mentions, cost is an issue. If there is an appeal process, and the cost is minimal or zero, it will be used by pretty much everyone who is rejected, significantly increasing the cost of the program with little positive outcome.
That being said, grant applicants, both accepted and rejected, should be requested to fill out a survey with their input being used for the annul review of the program.
Alan
At 16/08/2019 09:46 PM, John R Levine wrote:
Are we going to just ignore the input from people who actually run such grant making organizations @Sylvia Cadena<mailto:sylvia@apnic.net<mailto:sylvia@apnic.net>> has weighed in on this with some factual statements that we seem to have just glossed over?
I am a trustee of the Internet Society, where we have recently set up an actual captive grant making foundation with no appeal process, so no, we are not. It's a bad idea.
R's, John
At 15/08/2019 09:32 AM, John R Levine wrote:
Following on from the last CCWG call and the input received on the individual appeals mechanism, please find attached an updated proposal for your review. Please share any comments, concerns or suggestions you may have in advance of the next CCWG meeting which has been scheduled for Wednesday 21 August.
It's OK to have an appeal process but this leaves some rather important questions open, e.g.
* Who pays for the appeal? Is it like UDRP where the parties split the cost, or is it all ICANN?
* I expect that no matter what we say, most appeals will in fact be applicants who are unhappy that they didn't get funded. Is there a way to dispose of obviously bogus appeals efficiently? Obviously bogus means things like not identifying any process failure other than saying no.
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Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
I too am in agreement with setting explicit boundaries on what can and cannot be appealed and how that process would work. I would like to add one more suggestion as food for thought. If we want to broaden the playing field for potential applicants, ICANN might want to provide either an online self-learning module, or a set of webcasts (archived) for an orientation and training process for organizations considering applying for funding. I put this on the table as food for thought because I have seen too many poorly constructed proposals coming from areas where there is intense need but areas where organizations lack the skills to draft an appropriate proposal. For a while I was the head of the board of an organization that "farmed out" its World Bank proposal expert to help organizations less familiar with the details of a good proposal. I would hate to see this pool of funding go mainly to the "same old same old" organizations, only because they had a competitive advantage in proposal writing. ---- Food for thought ---. Sam Lanfranco On 8/19/2019 12:54 PM, Marika Konings wrote:
Dear All,
Thank you all for your input. Hereby the current language of the draft Final Report which already addressed the point of the existing accountability mechanism with added in bold and brackets new language which aims to reflect the input received to date:
/The CCWG discussed whether an appeals mechanism should be available for applicant not selected and/but agreed that [*this would create a level of complexity that was deemed not desirable or necessary, after having reviewed how other organizations deal with appeals. Instead, it is the expectation that applicants not selected would receive feedback as part of the response to their application outlining the reasons for why their application was not selected. Also, in the context of the regular review of the mechanisms, both selected applicants and non-selected applicants should be invited to participate and provide any feedback they may have on how the program can be further improved]. *The CCWG did agree that appropriate measures should be taken that would exclude applicants from using ICANN accountability measures such as IRP. The reason for this recommendation is that the Board decision in this context would be in relation to the disbursement of funds based on the recommendations of the independent evaluation panel and not as a result of the ICANN’s Board assessment of an individual application. This should not necessarily prevent applicants from seeking redress through other means as defined by the mechanism responsible for disbursement of auction proceeds. /
//
/CCWG Recommendation #NEW: Applicants should not have access to ICANN accountability mechanisms such as IRP to challenge a decision from the independent evaluation panel to not approve their application, but applicants [*not selected should receive feedback as part of the response to their application outlining the reasons for why their application was not selected]* have a mechanism available that allows them to provide additional clarifications to the independent evaluation panel or flag if it is believed that something in the application was misunderstood or missed. /
//
This will be on the agenda for Wednesday’s meeting so if you have any concerns about the proposed edits, please share these in advance of Wednesday’s meeting.
Best regards,
Marika
*From: *Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> *Date: *Monday, August 19, 2019 at 10:22 *To: *"ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org" <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org>, Becky Burr <BBurr@hwglaw.com>, Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com>, "erika@erikamann.com" <erika@erikamann.com> *Cc: *John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com>, "ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org" <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org> *Subject: *Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism
My recollection is that we were pretty clear that the existing accountabilty mechanisms would not apply, and that it is possible that a fundamental Bylaw change would be required to do that.
Alan -- Sent from my mobile. Please excuse brevity and typos.
On August 19, 2019 12:05:18 PM EDT, Becky Burr <BBurr@hwglaw.com> wrote:
It will be particularly important that the final report be clear that the CCWG does not believe that ICANN’s existing accountability mechanisms (ombuds, Reconsiderations, or IRP) should be available to challenge an adverse grant decision. Those mechanisms are not well suited to this kind of situation.
From: Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com> Date: Saturday, August 17, 2019 at 9:14 PM To: Erika Mann <erika@erikamann.com> Cc: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com>, CCWG Auction Proceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism
Hi Erika I agree as well. Sylvia made some excellent points. While I like the idea of an appeals process I can see that it adds an extra layer of complexity to the grant process
Best Judith Sent from my iPhone Judith@jhellerstein.com<mailto:Judith@jhellerstein.com> Skype ID:Judithhellerstein
On Aug 17, 2019, at 7:23 AM, Erika Mann <erika@erikamann.com<mailto:erika@erikamann.com>> wrote: I believe we have an agreement ... though we had such an agreement before but then Sam thought we should reconsider our understanding ... hopefully we can put this item to rest now.
Erika Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 17, 2019, at 12:21 PM, Marilyn Cade <marilynscade@hotmail.com<mailto:marilynscade@hotmail.com>> wrote: Wow, are we seeing "general" support for no appeal mechanism?
Perhaps we can put this sort of to 'bed'?
Add something in our documentation - discussed extensively; considered; recommend that an appeal mechanism is not needed, and would add unneeded complexity, and include a paragraph of explanation, so that in the public comment process, the community commenting feels fully informed?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org<mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Vanda Scartezini <vanda@scartezini.org<mailto:vanda@scartezini.org>> Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 12:12 AM To: Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com<mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com>> Cc: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com<mailto:johnl@taugh.com>>; CCWG Auction Proceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org<mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism
Make sense to me too. I was against an appeal as I said early on since that is the way all R&D grants here works and the independent panel and their report make the not appeal alternative accountable to the society. Not having appellation makes the process quicker allowing the start up of the projects while it makes sense due the development of the technology in the ICT field as is the case of DNS related issues
Vanda Scartezini Sent from my iPad Sorry for any typos and misspellings
On 17 Aug 2019, at 00:02, Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com<mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com>> wrote: "That being said, grant applicants, both accepted and rejected, should be requested to fill out a survey with their input being used for the annul review of the program." End quote.
This makes a lot of sense to me, given the the independent nature of the grant process being tabled. The strength of the selection process should be of sufficient integrity to forgo the additional cost of an appeals procedure which could be quite detrimental to the expected outcome and purpose of the grants. My view currently is to stay away from appeal procedures of all kinds; and fine tune the mechanisms to ensure that grant awards stay well within pre established control lines. There are already review mechanisms, designed to keep the process in line with ICANN's mission and purpose. I am thinking that in the context of an independent body, and the relative size of the fund, and the advice of others on this d list, no appeal process is going to be "very light weight" .
I think, we should keep it out of the equation if at all possible. Each funding call should be drafted with this in mind... RD
On Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 22:21 Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca<mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca>> wrote: I agree with John. I do not think that we should have an appeal process. That being said, if we MUST have one it should:
- be VERY light weight; - there must be VERY tight time requirements for submission - go to the manager of the selection group with the final result being final; - the final result being the project is accepted or still rejected. Specifically, there should be no "reason" given (as has recently been suggested).
Note that we may end up rejecting perfectly good projects. But they may not, in the view of the evaluators, have a sufficiently high benefit:cost ration. Or we may simply have used up all of our funds for that period on projects that were better!
As John mentions, cost is an issue. If there is an appeal process, and the cost is minimal or zero, it will be used by pretty much everyone who is rejected, significantly increasing the cost of the program with little positive outcome.
That being said, grant applicants, both accepted and rejected, should be requested to fill out a survey with their input being used for the annul review of the program.
Alan
At 16/08/2019 09:46 PM, John R Levine wrote:
Are we going to just ignore the input from people who actually run such grant making organizations @Sylvia Cadena<mailto:sylvia@apnic.net<mailto:sylvia@apnic.net>> has weighed in on this with some factual statements that we seem to have just glossed over?
I am a trustee of the Internet Society, where we have recently set up an actual captive grant making foundation with no appeal process, so no, we are not. It's a bad idea.
R's, John
At 15/08/2019 09:32 AM, John R Levine wrote:
Following on from the last CCWG call and the input received on the individual appeals mechanism, please find attached an updated proposal for your review. Please share any comments, concerns or suggestions you may have in advance of the next CCWG meeting which has been scheduled for Wednesday 21 August.
It's OK to have an appeal process but this leaves some rather important questions open, e.g.
* Who pays for the appeal? Is it like UDRP where the parties split the cost, or is it all ICANN?
* I expect that no matter what we say, most appeals will in fact be applicants who are unhappy that they didn't get funded. Is there a way to dispose of obviously bogus appeals efficiently? Obviously bogus means things like not identifying any process failure other than saying no.
Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com<mailto:johnl@iecc.com>, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail.https://jl.ly [jl.ly] <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__jl.ly&d=DwMGaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=7_PQAir-9nJQ2uB2cWiTDDDo5Hfy5HL9rSTe65iXLVM&m=jHKPVFak9C7yj2MJlE7r685K5_WRqix50ov486ADs-Y&s=dD5kH_aGjyLoQVL6iKkiusiJyXLE8qipFotW7X8ai8I&e=><https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fjl.ly&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cf0335de880ab40abc37608d722c929a2%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637016119694986707&sdata=V%2Bl7mZ3kPaK7iXq2Fs0CwUh%2BHrGQyWPJdLko%2BS9uoPw%3D&reserved=0 [eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com] <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Fjl.ly-26data-3D02-257C01-257C-257Cf0335de880ab40abc37608d722c929a2-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa-257C1-257C0-257C637016119694986707-26sdata-3DV-252Bl7mZ3kPaK7iXq2Fs0CwUh-252BHrGQyWPJdLko-252BS9uoPw-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMGaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=7_PQAir-9nJQ2uB2cWiTDDDo5Hfy5HL9rSTe65iXLVM&m=jHKPVFak9C7yj2MJlE7r685K5_WRqix50ov486ADs-Y&s=7mXj_ImGcVDYJIsZPFwd1IokveskFVclwRLEylnXyNE&e=>>
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-- ------------------------------------------------ "It is a disgrace to be rich and honored in an unjust state" -Confucius 邦有道，贫且贱焉，耻也。邦无道，富且贵焉，耻也 ------------------------------------------------ Dr Sam Lanfranco (Prof Emeritus), Econ, York U., CANADA email: sam@lanfranco.net Skype: slanfranco blog: https://samlanfranco.blogspot.com Phone: +1 613-476-0429 cell: +1 416-816-2852
I think we discussed some time ago about the promotional and communications support activities like the ones Sam is mentioning. If those discussions didn’t find their way to the report it will be good to review that, although it will be better to do it on a separate thread from the appeals mechanism. I think some of the external experts also touched on that when they talk about set up. If I remember correctly we talked about how the application process should have detailed guidelines to help people prepare, be done with enough time, etc. However, I think we didn’t went into a lot of detail, thinking that was part of an implementation phase outside of the scope of the CCWG. In any case, I think this is a good point to make. Regards, Sylvia ________________________________________________________________________ Sylvia Cadena | APNIC Foundation - Head of Programs | sylvia@apnic.net | http://www.apnic.foundation ISIF Asia, WSIS Champion on International Cooperation 2018 & 2019 | http://www.isif.asia | FB ISIF.asia | @ISIF_Asia | G+ ISIFAsia | 6 Cordelia Street, South Brisbane, QLD, 4101 Australia | PO Box 3646 | +10 GMT | skypeID: sylviacadena | Tel: +61 7 3858 3100 | Fax: +61 7 3858 3199 * Love trees. Print only if necessary. From: Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Sam Lanfranco <sam@lanfranco.net> Date: Tuesday, 20 August 2019 at 4:51 am To: Marika Konings <marika.konings@icann.org>, "ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org" <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism I too am in agreement with setting explicit boundaries on what can and cannot be appealed and how that process would work. I would like to add one more suggestion as food for thought. If we want to broaden the playing field for potential applicants, ICANN might want to provide either an online self-learning module, or a set of webcasts (archived) for an orientation and training process for organizations considering applying for funding. I put this on the table as food for thought because I have seen too many poorly constructed proposals coming from areas where there is intense need but areas where organizations lack the skills to draft an appropriate proposal. For a while I was the head of the board of an organization that "farmed out" its World Bank proposal expert to help organizations less familiar with the details of a good proposal. I would hate to see this pool of funding go mainly to the "same old same old" organizations, only because they had a competitive advantage in proposal writing. ---- Food for thought ---. Sam Lanfranco On 8/19/2019 12:54 PM, Marika Konings wrote: Dear All, Thank you all for your input. Hereby the current language of the draft Final Report which already addressed the point of the existing accountability mechanism with added in bold and brackets new language which aims to reflect the input received to date: The CCWG discussed whether an appeals mechanism should be available for applicant not selected and/but agreed that [this would create a level of complexity that was deemed not desirable or necessary, after having reviewed how other organizations deal with appeals. Instead, it is the expectation that applicants not selected would receive feedback as part of the response to their application outlining the reasons for why their application was not selected. Also, in the context of the regular review of the mechanisms, both selected applicants and non-selected applicants should be invited to participate and provide any feedback they may have on how the program can be further improved]. The CCWG did agree that appropriate measures should be taken that would exclude applicants from using ICANN accountability measures such as IRP. The reason for this recommendation is that the Board decision in this context would be in relation to the disbursement of funds based on the recommendations of the independent evaluation panel and not as a result of the ICANN’s Board assessment of an individual application. This should not necessarily prevent applicants from seeking redress through other means as defined by the mechanism responsible for disbursement of auction proceeds. CCWG Recommendation #NEW: Applicants should not have access to ICANN accountability mechanisms such as IRP to challenge a decision from the independent evaluation panel to not approve their application, but applicants [not selected should receive feedback as part of the response to their application outlining the reasons for why their application was not selected] have a mechanism available that allows them to provide additional clarifications to the independent evaluation panel or flag if it is believed that something in the application was misunderstood or missed. This will be on the agenda for Wednesday’s meeting so if you have any concerns about the proposed edits, please share these in advance of Wednesday’s meeting. Best regards, Marika From: Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org><mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca><mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> Date: Monday, August 19, 2019 at 10:22 To: "ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org"<mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org> <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org><mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org>, Becky Burr <BBurr@hwglaw.com><mailto:BBurr@hwglaw.com>, Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com><mailto:judith@jhellerstein.com>, "erika@erikamann.com"<mailto:erika@erikamann.com> <erika@erikamann.com><mailto:erika@erikamann.com> Cc: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com><mailto:johnl@taugh.com>, "ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org"<mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org> <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org><mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism My recollection is that we were pretty clear that the existing accountabilty mechanisms would not apply, and that it is possible that a fundamental Bylaw change would be required to do that. Alan -- Sent from my mobile. Please excuse brevity and typos. On August 19, 2019 12:05:18 PM EDT, Becky Burr <BBurr@hwglaw.com><mailto:BBurr@hwglaw.com> wrote: It will be particularly important that the final report be clear that the CCWG does not believe that ICANN’s existing accountability mechanisms (ombuds, Reconsiderations, or IRP) should be available to challenge an adverse grant decision. Those mechanisms are not well suited to this kind of situation. From: Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org><mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com><mailto:judith@jhellerstein.com> Date: Saturday, August 17, 2019 at 9:14 PM To: Erika Mann <erika@erikamann.com><mailto:erika@erikamann.com> Cc: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com><mailto:johnl@taugh.com>, CCWG Auction Proceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org><mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism Hi Erika I agree as well. Sylvia made some excellent points. While I like the idea of an appeals process I can see that it adds an extra layer of complexity to the grant process Best Judith Sent from my iPhone Judith@jhellerstein.com<mailto:Judith@jhellerstein.com><mailto:Judith@jhellerstein.com><mailto:Judith@jhellerstein.com> Skype ID:Judithhellerstein On Aug 17, 2019, at 7:23 AM, Erika Mann <erika@erikamann.com<mailto:erika@erikamann.com><mailto:erika@erikamann.com><mailto:erika@erikamann.com>> wrote: I believe we have an agreement ... though we had such an agreement before but then Sam thought we should reconsider our understanding ... hopefully we can put this item to rest now. Erika Sent from my iPhone On Aug 17, 2019, at 12:21 PM, Marilyn Cade <marilynscade@hotmail.com<mailto:marilynscade@hotmail.com><mailto:marilynscade@hotmail.com><mailto:marilynscade@hotmail.com>> wrote: Wow, are we seeing "general" support for no appeal mechanism? Perhaps we can put this sort of to 'bed'? Add something in our documentation - discussed extensively; considered; recommend that an appeal mechanism is not needed, and would add unneeded complexity, and include a paragraph of explanation, so that in the public comment process, the community commenting feels fully informed? ________________________________ From: Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org<mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org><mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org><mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Vanda Scartezini <vanda@scartezini.org<mailto:vanda@scartezini.org><mailto:vanda@scartezini.org><mailto:vanda@scartezini.org>> Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 12:12 AM To: Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com<mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com><mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com><mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com>> Cc: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com<mailto:johnl@taugh.com><mailto:johnl@taugh.com><mailto:johnl@taugh.com>>; CCWG Auction Proceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org<mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org><mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org><mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism Make sense to me too. I was against an appeal as I said early on since that is the way all R&D grants here works and the independent panel and their report make the not appeal alternative accountable to the society. Not having appellation makes the process quicker allowing the start up of the projects while it makes sense due the development of the technology in the ICT field as is the case of DNS related issues Vanda Scartezini Sent from my iPad Sorry for any typos and misspellings On 17 Aug 2019, at 00:02, Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com<mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com><mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com><mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com>> wrote: "That being said, grant applicants, both accepted and rejected, should be requested to fill out a survey with their input being used for the annul review of the program." End quote. This makes a lot of sense to me, given the the independent nature of the grant process being tabled. The strength of the selection process should be of sufficient integrity to forgo the additional cost of an appeals procedure which could be quite detrimental to the expected outcome and purpose of the grants. My view currently is to stay away from appeal procedures of all kinds; and fine tune the mechanisms to ensure that grant awards stay well within pre established control lines. There are already review mechanisms, designed to keep the process in line with ICANN's mission and purpose. I am thinking that in the context of an independent body, and the relative size of the fund, and the advice of others on this d list, no appeal process is going to be "very light weight" . I think, we should keep it out of the equation if at all possible. Each funding call should be drafted with this in mind... RD On Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 22:21 Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca<mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca><mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca><mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca>> wrote: I agree with John. I do not think that we should have an appeal process. That being said, if we MUST have one it should: - be VERY light weight; - there must be VERY tight time requirements for submission - go to the manager of the selection group with the final result being final; - the final result being the project is accepted or still rejected. Specifically, there should be no "reason" given (as has recently been suggested). Note that we may end up rejecting perfectly good projects. But they may not, in the view of the evaluators, have a sufficiently high benefit:cost ration. Or we may simply have used up all of our funds for that period on projects that were better! As John mentions, cost is an issue. If there is an appeal process, and the cost is minimal or zero, it will be used by pretty much everyone who is rejected, significantly increasing the cost of the program with little positive outcome. That being said, grant applicants, both accepted and rejected, should be requested to fill out a survey with their input being used for the annul review of the program. Alan At 16/08/2019 09:46 PM, John R Levine wrote: Are we going to just ignore the input from people who actually run such grant making organizations @Sylvia Cadena<mailto:sylvia@apnic.net<mailto:sylvia@apnic.net><mailto:sylvia@apnic.net>> has weighed in on this with some factual statements that we seem to have just glossed over? I am a trustee of the Internet Society, where we have recently set up an actual captive grant making foundation with no appeal process, so no, we are not. It's a bad idea. R's, John At 15/08/2019 09:32 AM, John R Levine wrote: Following on from the last CCWG call and the input received on the individual appeals mechanism, please find attached an updated proposal for your review. Please share any comments, concerns or suggestions you may have in advance of the next CCWG meeting which has been scheduled for Wednesday 21 August. It's OK to have an appeal process but this leaves some rather important questions open, e.g. * Who pays for the appeal? Is it like UDRP where the parties split the cost, or is it all ICANN? * I expect that no matter what we say, most appeals will in fact be applicants who are unhappy that they didn't get funded. Is there a way to dispose of obviously bogus appeals efficiently? Obviously bogus means things like not identifying any process failure other than saying no. 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You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. -- ------------------------------------------------ "It is a disgrace to be rich and honored in an unjust state" -Confucius 邦有道，贫且贱焉，耻也。邦无道，富且贵焉，耻也 ------------------------------------------------ Dr Sam Lanfranco (Prof Emeritus), Econ, York U., CANADA email: sam@lanfranco.net<mailto:sam@lanfranco.net> Skype: slanfranco blog: https://samlanfranco.blogspot.com Phone: +1 613-476-0429 cell: +1 416-816-2852
Thank you. I agree with the text. ( as I have sent similar ideas before the meeting I could not attend) Vanda Scartezini Polo Consultores Associados Av. Paulista 1159, cj 1004 01311-200- Sao Paulo, SP, Brazil Land Line: +55 11 3266.6253 Mobile: + 55 11 98181.1464 Sorry for any typos. From: Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of 'Marika Konings' <marika.konings@icann.org> Date: Monday, August 19, 2019 at 13:54 To: Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca>, "ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org" <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org>, Becky Burr <BBurr@hwglaw.com>, Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com>, Erika Mann <erika@erikamann.com> Cc: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism Dear All, Thank you all for your input. Hereby the current language of the draft Final Report which already addressed the point of the existing accountability mechanism with added in bold and brackets new language which aims to reflect the input received to date: The CCWG discussed whether an appeals mechanism should be available for applicant not selected and/but agreed that [this would create a level of complexity that was deemed not desirable or necessary, after having reviewed how other organizations deal with appeals. Instead, it is the expectation that applicants not selected would receive feedback as part of the response to their application outlining the reasons for why their application was not selected. Also, in the context of the regular review of the mechanisms, both selected applicants and non-selected applicants should be invited to participate and provide any feedback they may have on how the program can be further improved]. The CCWG did agree that appropriate measures should be taken that would exclude applicants from using ICANN accountability measures such as IRP. The reason for this recommendation is that the Board decision in this context would be in relation to the disbursement of funds based on the recommendations of the independent evaluation panel and not as a result of the ICANN’s Board assessment of an individual application. This should not necessarily prevent applicants from seeking redress through other means as defined by the mechanism responsible for disbursement of auction proceeds. CCWG Recommendation #NEW: Applicants should not have access to ICANN accountability mechanisms such as IRP to challenge a decision from the independent evaluation panel to not approve their application, but applicants [not selected should receive feedback as part of the response to their application outlining the reasons for why their application was not selected] have a mechanism available that allows them to provide additional clarifications to the independent evaluation panel or flag if it is believed that something in the application was misunderstood or missed. This will be on the agenda for Wednesday’s meeting so if you have any concerns about the proposed edits, please share these in advance of Wednesday’s meeting. Best regards, Marika From: Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> Date: Monday, August 19, 2019 at 10:22 To: "ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org" <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org>, Becky Burr <BBurr@hwglaw.com>, Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com>, "erika@erikamann.com" <erika@erikamann.com> Cc: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com>, "ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org" <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism My recollection is that we were pretty clear that the existing accountabilty mechanisms would not apply, and that it is possible that a fundamental Bylaw change would be required to do that. Alan -- Sent from my mobile. Please excuse brevity and typos. On August 19, 2019 12:05:18 PM EDT, Becky Burr <BBurr@hwglaw.com> wrote: It will be particularly important that the final report be clear that the CCWG does not believe that ICANN’s existing accountability mechanisms (ombuds, Reconsiderations, or IRP) should be available to challenge an adverse grant decision. Those mechanisms are not well suited to this kind of situation. From: Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com> Date: Saturday, August 17, 2019 at 9:14 PM To: Erika Mann <erika@erikamann.com> Cc: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com>, CCWG Auction Proceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism Hi Erika I agree as well. Sylvia made some excellent points. While I like the idea of an appeals process I can see that it adds an extra layer of complexity to the grant process Best Judith Sent from my iPhone Judith@jhellerstein.com<mailto:Judith@jhellerstein.com> Skype ID:Judithhellerstein On Aug 17, 2019, at 7:23 AM, Erika Mann <erika@erikamann.com<mailto:erika@erikamann.com>> wrote: I believe we have an agreement ... though we had such an agreement before but then Sam thought we should reconsider our understanding ... hopefully we can put this item to rest now. Erika Sent from my iPhone On Aug 17, 2019, at 12:21 PM, Marilyn Cade <marilynscade@hotmail.com<mailto:marilynscade@hotmail.com>> wrote: Wow, are we seeing "general" support for no appeal mechanism? Perhaps we can put this sort of to 'bed'? Add something in our documentation - discussed extensively; considered; recommend that an appeal mechanism is not needed, and would add unneeded complexity, and include a paragraph of explanation, so that in the public comment process, the community commenting feels fully informed? ________________________________ From: Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org<mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Vanda Scartezini <vanda@scartezini.org<mailto:vanda@scartezini.org>> Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 12:12 AM To: Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com<mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com>> Cc: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com<mailto:johnl@taugh.com>>; CCWG Auction Proceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org<mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism Make sense to me too. I was against an appeal as I said early on since that is the way all R&D grants here works and the independent panel and their report make the not appeal alternative accountable to the society. Not having appellation makes the process quicker allowing the start up of the projects while it makes sense due the development of the technology in the ICT field as is the case of DNS related issues Vanda Scartezini Sent from my iPad Sorry for any typos and misspellings On 17 Aug 2019, at 00:02, Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com<mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com>> wrote: "That being said, grant applicants, both accepted and rejected, should be requested to fill out a survey with their input being used for the annul review of the program." End quote. This makes a lot of sense to me, given the the independent nature of the grant process being tabled. The strength of the selection process should be of sufficient integrity to forgo the additional cost of an appeals procedure which could be quite detrimental to the expected outcome and purpose of the grants. My view currently is to stay away from appeal procedures of all kinds; and fine tune the mechanisms to ensure that grant awards stay well within pre established control lines. There are already review mechanisms, designed to keep the process in line with ICANN's mission and purpose. I am thinking that in the context of an independent body, and the relative size of the fund, and the advice of others on this d list, no appeal process is going to be "very light weight" . I think, we should keep it out of the equation if at all possible. Each funding call should be drafted with this in mind... RD On Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 22:21 Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca<mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca>> wrote: I agree with John. I do not think that we should have an appeal process. That being said, if we MUST have one it should: - be VERY light weight; - there must be VERY tight time requirements for submission - go to the manager of the selection group with the final result being final; - the final result being the project is accepted or still rejected. Specifically, there should be no "reason" given (as has recently been suggested). Note that we may end up rejecting perfectly good projects. But they may not, in the view of the evaluators, have a sufficiently high benefit:cost ration. Or we may simply have used up all of our funds for that period on projects that were better! As John mentions, cost is an issue. If there is an appeal process, and the cost is minimal or zero, it will be used by pretty much everyone who is rejected, significantly increasing the cost of the program with little positive outcome. That being said, grant applicants, both accepted and rejected, should be requested to fill out a survey with their input being used for the annul review of the program. Alan At 16/08/2019 09:46 PM, John R Levine wrote: Are we going to just ignore the input from people who actually run such grant making organizations @Sylvia Cadena<mailto:sylvia@apnic.net<mailto:sylvia@apnic.net>> has weighed in on this with some factual statements that we seem to have just glossed over? I am a trustee of the Internet Society, where we have recently set up an actual captive grant making foundation with no appeal process, so no, we are not. It's a bad idea. R's, John At 15/08/2019 09:32 AM, John R Levine wrote: Following on from the last CCWG call and the input received on the individual appeals mechanism, please find attached an updated proposal for your review. Please share any comments, concerns or suggestions you may have in advance of the next CCWG meeting which has been scheduled for Wednesday 21 August. It's OK to have an appeal process but this leaves some rather important questions open, e.g. * Who pays for the appeal? Is it like UDRP where the parties split the cost, or is it all ICANN? * I expect that no matter what we say, most appeals will in fact be applicants who are unhappy that they didn't get funded. Is there a way to dispose of obviously bogus appeals efficiently? Obviously bogus means things like not identifying any process failure other than saying no. 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The text below is ok, however, it is important to reiterate this should be observed independently of the mechanism selected. Maybe worth mentioning that if the mechanism A is selected, there may be other traditional ICANN practices/mechanisms that will not be applicable -not only the IRP- but that will be for the implementation phase to review and analyse. I also think the recommendation should not limit the feedback to the reason why they were not selected, as in some cases providing those reasons is not as simple to explain. Feedback to applicants about how to improve for future applications, feedback about what were the stronger parts or their proposal, feedback about the weakest part of the proposal, of funding availability are common ways to provide that feedback. Sometimes the committee can’t agree and a proposal doesn’t have full support but those discussions are not made public. Regards, Sylvia ________________________________________________________________________ Sylvia Cadena | APNIC Foundation - Head of Programs | sylvia@apnic.net | http://www.apnic.foundation ISIF Asia, WSIS Champion on International Cooperation 2018 & 2019 | http://www.isif.asia | FB ISIF.asia | @ISIF_Asia | G+ ISIFAsia | 6 Cordelia Street, South Brisbane, QLD, 4101 Australia | PO Box 3646 | +10 GMT | skypeID: sylviacadena | Tel: +61 7 3858 3100 | Fax: +61 7 3858 3199 * Love trees. Print only if necessary. From: Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Marika Konings <marika.konings@icann.org> Date: Tuesday, 20 August 2019 at 2:54 am To: Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca>, "ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org" <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org>, Becky Burr <BBurr@hwglaw.com>, Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com>, "erika@erikamann.com" <erika@erikamann.com> Cc: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism Dear All, Thank you all for your input. Hereby the current language of the draft Final Report which already addressed the point of the existing accountability mechanism with added in bold and brackets new language which aims to reflect the input received to date: The CCWG discussed whether an appeals mechanism should be available for applicant not selected and/but agreed that [this would create a level of complexity that was deemed not desirable or necessary, after having reviewed how other organizations deal with appeals. Instead, it is the expectation that applicants not selected would receive feedback as part of the response to their application outlining the reasons for why their application was not selected. Also, in the context of the regular review of the mechanisms, both selected applicants and non-selected applicants should be invited to participate and provide any feedback they may have on how the program can be further improved]. The CCWG did agree that appropriate measures should be taken that would exclude applicants from using ICANN accountability measures such as IRP. The reason for this recommendation is that the Board decision in this context would be in relation to the disbursement of funds based on the recommendations of the independent evaluation panel and not as a result of the ICANN’s Board assessment of an individual application. This should not necessarily prevent applicants from seeking redress through other means as defined by the mechanism responsible for disbursement of auction proceeds. CCWG Recommendation #NEW: Applicants should not have access to ICANN accountability mechanisms such as IRP to challenge a decision from the independent evaluation panel to not approve their application, but applicants [not selected should receive feedback as part of the response to their application outlining the reasons for why their application was not selected] have a mechanism available that allows them to provide additional clarifications to the independent evaluation panel or flag if it is believed that something in the application was misunderstood or missed. This will be on the agenda for Wednesday’s meeting so if you have any concerns about the proposed edits, please share these in advance of Wednesday’s meeting. Best regards, Marika From: Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> Date: Monday, August 19, 2019 at 10:22 To: "ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org" <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org>, Becky Burr <BBurr@hwglaw.com>, Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com>, "erika@erikamann.com" <erika@erikamann.com> Cc: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com>, "ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org" <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism My recollection is that we were pretty clear that the existing accountabilty mechanisms would not apply, and that it is possible that a fundamental Bylaw change would be required to do that. Alan -- Sent from my mobile. Please excuse brevity and typos. On August 19, 2019 12:05:18 PM EDT, Becky Burr <BBurr@hwglaw.com> wrote: It will be particularly important that the final report be clear that the CCWG does not believe that ICANN’s existing accountability mechanisms (ombuds, Reconsiderations, or IRP) should be available to challenge an adverse grant decision. Those mechanisms are not well suited to this kind of situation. From: Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com> Date: Saturday, August 17, 2019 at 9:14 PM To: Erika Mann <erika@erikamann.com> Cc: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com>, CCWG Auction Proceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism Hi Erika I agree as well. Sylvia made some excellent points. While I like the idea of an appeals process I can see that it adds an extra layer of complexity to the grant process Best Judith Sent from my iPhone Judith@jhellerstein.com<mailto:Judith@jhellerstein.com> Skype ID:Judithhellerstein On Aug 17, 2019, at 7:23 AM, Erika Mann <erika@erikamann.com<mailto:erika@erikamann.com>> wrote: I believe we have an agreement ... though we had such an agreement before but then Sam thought we should reconsider our understanding ... hopefully we can put this item to rest now. Erika Sent from my iPhone On Aug 17, 2019, at 12:21 PM, Marilyn Cade <marilynscade@hotmail.com<mailto:marilynscade@hotmail.com>> wrote: Wow, are we seeing "general" support for no appeal mechanism? Perhaps we can put this sort of to 'bed'? Add something in our documentation - discussed extensively; considered; recommend that an appeal mechanism is not needed, and would add unneeded complexity, and include a paragraph of explanation, so that in the public comment process, the community commenting feels fully informed? ________________________________ From: Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org<mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Vanda Scartezini <vanda@scartezini.org<mailto:vanda@scartezini.org>> Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 12:12 AM To: Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com<mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com>> Cc: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com<mailto:johnl@taugh.com>>; CCWG Auction Proceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org<mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism Make sense to me too. I was against an appeal as I said early on since that is the way all R&D grants here works and the independent panel and their report make the not appeal alternative accountable to the society. Not having appellation makes the process quicker allowing the start up of the projects while it makes sense due the development of the technology in the ICT field as is the case of DNS related issues Vanda Scartezini Sent from my iPad Sorry for any typos and misspellings On 17 Aug 2019, at 00:02, Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com<mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com>> wrote: "That being said, grant applicants, both accepted and rejected, should be requested to fill out a survey with their input being used for the annul review of the program." End quote. This makes a lot of sense to me, given the the independent nature of the grant process being tabled. The strength of the selection process should be of sufficient integrity to forgo the additional cost of an appeals procedure which could be quite detrimental to the expected outcome and purpose of the grants. My view currently is to stay away from appeal procedures of all kinds; and fine tune the mechanisms to ensure that grant awards stay well within pre established control lines. There are already review mechanisms, designed to keep the process in line with ICANN's mission and purpose. I am thinking that in the context of an independent body, and the relative size of the fund, and the advice of others on this d list, no appeal process is going to be "very light weight" . I think, we should keep it out of the equation if at all possible. Each funding call should be drafted with this in mind... RD On Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 22:21 Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca<mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca>> wrote: I agree with John. I do not think that we should have an appeal process. That being said, if we MUST have one it should: - be VERY light weight; - there must be VERY tight time requirements for submission - go to the manager of the selection group with the final result being final; - the final result being the project is accepted or still rejected. Specifically, there should be no "reason" given (as has recently been suggested). Note that we may end up rejecting perfectly good projects. But they may not, in the view of the evaluators, have a sufficiently high benefit:cost ration. Or we may simply have used up all of our funds for that period on projects that were better! As John mentions, cost is an issue. If there is an appeal process, and the cost is minimal or zero, it will be used by pretty much everyone who is rejected, significantly increasing the cost of the program with little positive outcome. That being said, grant applicants, both accepted and rejected, should be requested to fill out a survey with their input being used for the annul review of the program. Alan At 16/08/2019 09:46 PM, John R Levine wrote: Are we going to just ignore the input from people who actually run such grant making organizations @Sylvia Cadena<mailto:sylvia@apnic.net<mailto:sylvia@apnic.net>> has weighed in on this with some factual statements that we seem to have just glossed over? I am a trustee of the Internet Society, where we have recently set up an actual captive grant making foundation with no appeal process, so no, we are not. It's a bad idea. R's, John At 15/08/2019 09:32 AM, John R Levine wrote: Following on from the last CCWG call and the input received on the individual appeals mechanism, please find attached an updated proposal for your review. Please share any comments, concerns or suggestions you may have in advance of the next CCWG meeting which has been scheduled for Wednesday 21 August. It's OK to have an appeal process but this leaves some rather important questions open, e.g. * Who pays for the appeal? Is it like UDRP where the parties split the cost, or is it all ICANN? * I expect that no matter what we say, most appeals will in fact be applicants who are unhappy that they didn't get funded. Is there a way to dispose of obviously bogus appeals efficiently? Obviously bogus means things like not identifying any process failure other than saying no. 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I agree with Sylvia and especially with regards to feedback to those whose proposals are rejected. They need appropriate feedback that will help them to produce the applications that are going to make the grade. This is more needed by those from underserved communities that do not have experience in writing such proposals yet are requesting something that is really worthwhile. Maureen On Mon, 19 Aug 2019, 9:30 PM Sylvia Cadena, <sylvia@apnic.net> wrote:
The text below is ok, however, it is important to reiterate this should be observed independently of the mechanism selected. Maybe worth mentioning that if the mechanism A is selected, there may be other traditional ICANN practices/mechanisms that will not be applicable -not only the IRP- but that will be for the implementation phase to review and analyse.
I also think the recommendation should not limit the feedback to the reason why they were not selected, as in some cases providing those reasons is not as simple to explain. Feedback to applicants about how to improve for future applications, feedback about what were the stronger parts or their proposal, feedback about the weakest part of the proposal, of funding availability are common ways to provide that feedback. Sometimes the committee can’t agree and a proposal doesn’t have full support but those discussions are not made public.
Regards,
Sylvia
________________________________________________________________________
Sylvia Cadena | APNIC Foundation - Head of Programs | sylvia@apnic.net | http://www.apnic.foundation
ISIF Asia, WSIS Champion on International Cooperation 2018 & 2019 | http://www.isif.asia | FB ISIF.asia | @ISIF_Asia | G+ ISIFAsia |
6 Cordelia Street, South Brisbane, QLD, 4101 Australia | PO Box 3646 | +10 GMT | skypeID: sylviacadena | Tel: +61 7 3858 3100 | Fax: +61 7 3858 3199
* Love trees. Print only if necessary.
*From: *Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Marika Konings <marika.konings@icann.org> *Date: *Tuesday, 20 August 2019 at 2:54 am *To: *Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca>, " ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org" <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org>, Becky Burr <BBurr@hwglaw.com>, Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com>, " erika@erikamann.com" <erika@erikamann.com> *Cc: *John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com> *Subject: *Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism
Dear All,
Thank you all for your input. Hereby the current language of the draft Final Report which already addressed the point of the existing accountability mechanism with added in bold and brackets new language which aims to reflect the input received to date:
*The CCWG discussed whether an appeals mechanism should be available for applicant not selected and/but agreed that [this would create a level of complexity that was deemed not desirable or necessary, after having reviewed how other organizations deal with appeals. Instead, it is the expectation that applicants not selected would receive feedback as part of the response to their application outlining the reasons for why their application was not selected. Also, in the context of the regular review of the mechanisms, both selected applicants and non-selected applicants should be invited to participate and provide any feedback they may have on how the program can be further improved]. The CCWG did agree that appropriate measures should be taken that would exclude applicants from using ICANN accountability measures such as IRP. The reason for this recommendation is that the Board decision in this context would be in relation to the disbursement of funds based on the recommendations of the independent evaluation panel and not as a result of the ICANN’s Board assessment of an individual application. This should not necessarily prevent applicants from seeking redress through other means as defined by the mechanism responsible for disbursement of auction proceeds. *
*CCWG Recommendation #NEW: Applicants should not have access to ICANN accountability mechanisms such as IRP to challenge a decision from the independent evaluation panel to not approve their application, but applicants [not selected should receive feedback as part of the response to their application outlining the reasons for why their application was not selected] have a mechanism available that allows them to provide additional clarifications to the independent evaluation panel or flag if it is believed that something in the application was misunderstood or missed. *
This will be on the agenda for Wednesday’s meeting so if you have any concerns about the proposed edits, please share these in advance of Wednesday’s meeting.
Best regards,
Marika
*From: *Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> *Date: *Monday, August 19, 2019 at 10:22 *To: *"ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org" <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org>, Becky Burr <BBurr@hwglaw.com>, Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com>, "erika@erikamann.com" <erika@erikamann.com> *Cc: *John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com>, "ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org" < ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org> *Subject: *Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism
My recollection is that we were pretty clear that the existing accountabilty mechanisms would not apply, and that it is possible that a fundamental Bylaw change would be required to do that.
Alan -- Sent from my mobile. Please excuse brevity and typos.
On August 19, 2019 12:05:18 PM EDT, Becky Burr <BBurr@hwglaw.com> wrote:
It will be particularly important that the final report be clear that the CCWG does not believe that ICANN’s existing accountability mechanisms (ombuds, Reconsiderations, or IRP) should be available to challenge an adverse grant decision. Those mechanisms are not well suited to this kind of situation.
From: Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com> Date: Saturday, August 17, 2019 at 9:14 PM To: Erika Mann <erika@erikamann.com> Cc: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com>, CCWG Auction Proceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism
Hi Erika I agree as well. Sylvia made some excellent points. While I like the idea of an appeals process I can see that it adds an extra layer of complexity to the grant process
Best Judith Sent from my iPhone Judith@jhellerstein.com<mailto:Judith@jhellerstein.com> Skype ID:Judithhellerstein
On Aug 17, 2019, at 7:23 AM, Erika Mann <erika@erikamann.com<mailto:erika@erikamann.com>> wrote: I believe we have an agreement ... though we had such an agreement before but then Sam thought we should reconsider our understanding ... hopefully we can put this item to rest now.
Erika Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 17, 2019, at 12:21 PM, Marilyn Cade <marilynscade@hotmail.com<mailto:marilynscade@hotmail.com>> wrote: Wow, are we seeing "general" support for no appeal mechanism?
Perhaps we can put this sort of to 'bed'?
Add something in our documentation - discussed extensively; considered; recommend that an appeal mechanism is not needed, and would add unneeded complexity, and include a paragraph of explanation, so that in the public comment process, the community commenting feels fully informed?
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From: Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org<mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Vanda Scartezini <vanda@scartezini.org<mailto:vanda@scartezini.org>> Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 12:12 AM To: Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com<mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com>> Cc: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com<mailto:johnl@taugh.com>>; CCWG Auction Proceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org<mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism
Make sense to me too. I was against an appeal as I said early on since that is the way all R&D grants here works and the independent panel and their report make the not appeal alternative accountable to the society. Not having appellation makes the process quicker allowing the start up of the projects while it makes sense due the development of the technology in the ICT field as is the case of DNS related issues
Vanda Scartezini Sent from my iPad Sorry for any typos and misspellings
On 17 Aug 2019, at 00:02, Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com<mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com>> wrote: "That being said, grant applicants, both accepted and rejected, should be requested to fill out a survey with their input being used for the annul review of the program." End quote.
This makes a lot of sense to me, given the the independent nature of the grant process being tabled. The strength of the selection process should be of sufficient integrity to forgo the additional cost of an appeals procedure which could be quite detrimental to the expected outcome and purpose of the grants. My view currently is to stay away from appeal procedures of all kinds; and fine tune the mechanisms to ensure that grant awards stay well within pre established control lines. There are already review mechanisms, designed to keep the process in line with ICANN's mission and purpose. I am thinking that in the context of an independent body, and the relative size of the fund, and the advice of others on this d list, no appeal process is going to be "very light weight" .
I think, we should keep it out of the equation if at all possible. Each funding call should be drafted with this in mind... RD
On Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 22:21 Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca<mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca>> wrote: I agree with John. I do not think that we should have an appeal process. That being said, if we MUST have one it should:
- be VERY light weight; - there must be VERY tight time requirements for submission - go to the manager of the selection group with the final result being final; - the final result being the project is accepted or still rejected. Specifically, there should be no "reason" given (as has recently been suggested).
Note that we may end up rejecting perfectly good projects. But they may not, in the view of the evaluators, have a sufficiently high benefit:cost ration. Or we may simply have used up all of our funds for that period on projects that were better!
As John mentions, cost is an issue. If there is an appeal process, and the cost is minimal or zero, it will be used by pretty much everyone who is rejected, significantly increasing the cost of the program with little positive outcome.
That being said, grant applicants, both accepted and rejected, should be requested to fill out a survey with their input being used for the annul review of the program.
Alan
At 16/08/2019 09:46 PM, John R Levine wrote:
Are we going to just ignore the input from people who actually run such grant making organizations @Sylvia Cadena<mailto:sylvia@apnic.net<mailto:sylvia@apnic.net>> has weighed in on this with some factual statements that we seem to have just glossed over?
I am a trustee of the Internet Society, where we have recently set up an actual captive grant making foundation with no appeal process, so no, we are not. It's a bad idea.
R's, John
At 15/08/2019 09:32 AM, John R Levine wrote:
Following on from the last CCWG call and the input received on the individual appeals mechanism, please find attached an updated proposal for your review. Please share any comments, concerns or suggestions you may have in advance of the next CCWG meeting which has been scheduled for Wednesday 21 August.
It's OK to have an appeal process but this leaves some rather important questions open, e.g.
* Who pays for the appeal? Is it like UDRP where the parties split the cost, or is it all ICANN?
* I expect that no matter what we say, most appeals will in fact be applicants who are unhappy that they didn't get funded. Is there a way to dispose of obviously bogus appeals efficiently? Obviously bogus means things like not identifying any process failure other than saying no.
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_______________________________________________ Ccwg-auctionproceeds mailing list Ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ccwg-auctionproceeds _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
On Tue, 20 Aug 2019, Maureen Hilyard wrote:
I agree with Sylvia and especially with regards to feedback to those whose proposals are rejected. They need appropriate feedback that will help them to produce the applications that are going to make the grade. This is more needed by those from underserved communities that do not have experience in writing such proposals yet are requesting something that is really worthwhile.
I really do not think it is our job to tell people how to rewrite their proposals so they can reapply. (Will there even be a chance to reapply?) If we want to provide grant writing help, we should make that part of the plan and not confuse it with the grant evaluation. Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
Once a call is closed no one can apply to that particular call, but I have never heard of a grants program that does not allow organizations that were not successful to apply for future rounds of funding. They should be able to re-apply, as there is no plan to allocate all auction proceeds in one go. As long as the criteria is met, that should not be an issue. It is very common to have a percentage of unsuccessful applicants re-applying. In our case, some organizations applied at least 3 times before they are granted funding. Considering the number of organizations that work around the objectives of this fund, that seems very likely. Successful applicants that have already received funding should -in my opinion- be able to request additional funding as well. Either for the same project or for a totally different one. That is done by most large donors to support scale-up and achieve impact for a solution that works, or to support organizations that are done really well on their reporting and outcomes, as impact takes time. But that is -again- a different subject. That is particularly important with large organizations such as universities, where funding can go to one department/faculty once and then to a different one in the future. Regards, Sylvia ________________________________________________________________________ Sylvia Cadena | APNIC Foundation - Head of Programs | sylvia@apnic.net | http://www.apnic.foundation ISIF Asia, WSIS Champion on International Cooperation 2018 & 2019 | http://www.isif.asia | FB ISIF.asia | @ISIF_Asia | G+ ISIFAsia | 6 Cordelia Street, South Brisbane, QLD, 4101 Australia | PO Box 3646 | +10 GMT | skypeID: sylviacadena | Tel: +61 7 3858 3100 | Fax: +61 7 3858 3199 * Love trees. Print only if necessary. On 21/8/19, 6:58 am, "Ccwg-auctionproceeds on behalf of John R Levine" <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org on behalf of johnl@taugh.com> wrote: On Tue, 20 Aug 2019, Maureen Hilyard wrote: > I agree with Sylvia and especially with regards to feedback to those whose > proposals are rejected. They need appropriate feedback that will help them > to produce the applications that are going to make the grade. This is more > needed by those from underserved communities that do not have experience in > writing such proposals yet are requesting something that is really > worthwhile. I really do not think it is our job to tell people how to rewrite their proposals so they can reapply. (Will there even be a chance to reapply?) If we want to provide grant writing help, we should make that part of the plan and not confuse it with the grant evaluation. Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly _______________________________________________ Ccwg-auctionproceeds mailing list Ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ccwg-auctionproceeds _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Three quick small comments: 1. I don't think there is any thought about applicants not being able to re-apply in subsequent rounds. As noted, some applicants learn from both their rejections and access to the proposals of those who were funded. 2. The policies for handling subsequent proposals from successful applicants need to be thought through carefully, and be made clear from the start. Some funding sources have a two-stage funding process built in, wherein a successful preliminary project has specified access to a second level project proposal window, but no assurance of funding. Others do not, and expect successful projects to look elsewhere for subsequent funding, or to reapply with no preferential treatment. 3. Maureen Hilyard writes: "/I really do not think it is our job to tell people how to rewrite their proposals so they can reapply. (Will there even be a chance to reapply?) If we want to provide grant writing help, we should make that part of the //plan and not confuse it with the grant evaluation/." As one of those who proposed some training or orientation for applicants, I agree with her here. I would like to see some open access training materials used to help make clear what the ICANN auction funds Calls for Proposals should have to constitute a relevant and adequately constructed application for funding. This would assist those writing the proposals, be they those who will execute the project, or those retained to assist with proposal writing. Sam L. On 8/20/2019 6:50 PM, Sylvia Cadena wrote:
Once a call is closed no one can apply to that particular call, but I have never heard of a grants program that does not allow organizations that were not successful to apply for future rounds of funding. They should be able to re-apply, as there is no plan to allocate all auction proceeds in one go. As long as the criteria is met, that should not be an issue.
It is very common to have a percentage of unsuccessful applicants re-applying. In our case, some organizations applied at least 3 times before they are granted funding. Considering the number of organizations that work around the objectives of this fund, that seems very likely.
Successful applicants that have already received funding should -in my opinion- be able to request additional funding as well. Either for the same project or for a totally different one. That is done by most large donors to support scale-up and achieve impact for a solution that works, or to support organizations that are done really well on their reporting and outcomes, as impact takes time. But that is -again- a different subject. That is particularly important with large organizations such as universities, where funding can go to one department/faculty once and then to a different one in the future.
Regards,
Sylvia
________________________________________________________________________
Sylvia Cadena | APNIC Foundation - Head of Programs | sylvia@apnic.net | http://www.apnic.foundation ISIF Asia, WSIS Champion on International Cooperation 2018 & 2019 | http://www.isif.asia | FB ISIF.asia | @ISIF_Asia | G+ ISIFAsia | 6 Cordelia Street, South Brisbane, QLD, 4101 Australia | PO Box 3646 | +10 GMT | skypeID: sylviacadena | Tel: +61 7 3858 3100 | Fax: +61 7 3858 3199 * Love trees. Print only if necessary.
On 21/8/19, 6:58 am, "Ccwg-auctionproceeds on behalf of John R Levine" <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org on behalf of johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
On Tue, 20 Aug 2019, Maureen Hilyard wrote:
> I agree with Sylvia and especially with regards to feedback to those whose > proposals are rejected. They need appropriate feedback that will help them > to produce the applications that are going to make the grade. This is more > needed by those from underserved communities that do not have experience in > writing such proposals yet are requesting something that is really > worthwhile.
I really do not think it is our job to tell people how to rewrite their proposals so they can reapply. (Will there even be a chance to reapply?)
If we want to provide grant writing help, we should make that part of the plan and not confuse it with the grant evaluation.
Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly _______________________________________________ Ccwg-auctionproceeds mailing list Ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ccwg-auctionproceeds _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ Ccwg-auctionproceeds mailing list Ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ccwg-auctionproceeds _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
-- ------------------------------------------------ "It is a disgrace to be rich and honored in an unjust state" -Confucius 邦有道，贫且贱焉，耻也。邦无道，富且贵焉，耻也 ------------------------------------------------ Dr Sam Lanfranco (Prof Emeritus), Econ, York U., CANADA email: sam@lanfranco.net Skype: slanfranco blog: https://samlanfranco.blogspot.com Phone: +1 613-476-0429 cell: +1 416-816-2852
Hi Sam You attributed something to me that John Levine wrote in response to my saying that some people needed support in writing the sort of application that we may require them to complete. But really they need to fully understand its requirements well in advance of even applying. And while they may get feedback on the process, no reference should be made of the actual evaluation. As John pointed out, and we all agree, this is a capacity development need not an evaluation need. Maureen On Tue, 20 Aug 2019, 1:23 PM Sam Lanfranco, <sam@lanfranco.net> wrote:
Three quick small comments:
1. I don't think there is any thought about applicants not being able to re-apply in subsequent rounds. As noted, some applicants learn from both their rejections and access to the proposals of those who were funded.
2. The policies for handling subsequent proposals from successful applicants need to be thought through carefully, and be made clear from the start. Some funding sources have a two-stage funding process built in, wherein a successful preliminary project has specified access to a second level project proposal window, but no assurance of funding. Others do not, and expect successful projects to look elsewhere for subsequent funding, or to reapply with no preferential treatment.
3. Maureen Hilyard writes: "*I really do not think it is our job to tell people how to rewrite their proposals so they can reapply. (Will there even be a chance to reapply?) If we want to provide grant writing help, we should make that part of the **plan and not confuse it with the grant evaluation*." As one of those who proposed some training or orientation for applicants, I agree with her here. I would like to see some open access training materials used to help make clear what the ICANN auction funds Calls for Proposals should have to constitute a relevant and adequately constructed application for funding. This would assist those writing the proposals, be they those who will execute the project, or those retained to assist with proposal writing.
Sam L. On 8/20/2019 6:50 PM, Sylvia Cadena wrote:
Once a call is closed no one can apply to that particular call, but I have never heard of a grants program that does not allow organizations that were not successful to apply for future rounds of funding. They should be able to re-apply, as there is no plan to allocate all auction proceeds in one go. As long as the criteria is met, that should not be an issue.
It is very common to have a percentage of unsuccessful applicants re-applying. In our case, some organizations applied at least 3 times before they are granted funding. Considering the number of organizations that work around the objectives of this fund, that seems very likely.
Successful applicants that have already received funding should -in my opinion- be able to request additional funding as well. Either for the same project or for a totally different one. That is done by most large donors to support scale-up and achieve impact for a solution that works, or to support organizations that are done really well on their reporting and outcomes, as impact takes time. But that is -again- a different subject. That is particularly important with large organizations such as universities, where funding can go to one department/faculty once and then to a different one in the future.
Regards,
Sylvia
________________________________________________________________________
Sylvia Cadena | APNIC Foundation - Head of Programs | sylvia@apnic.net | http://www.apnic.foundation ISIF Asia, WSIS Champion on International Cooperation 2018 & 2019 | http://www.isif.asia | FB ISIF.asia | @ISIF_Asia | G+ ISIFAsia | 6 Cordelia Street, South Brisbane, QLD, 4101 Australia | PO Box 3646 | +10 GMT | skypeID: sylviacadena | Tel: +61 7 3858 3100 | Fax: +61 7 3858 3199 * Love trees. Print only if necessary.
On 21/8/19, 6:58 am, "Ccwg-auctionproceeds on behalf of John R Levine" <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org on behalf of johnl@taugh.com> <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.orgonbehalfofjohnl@taugh.com> wrote:
On Tue, 20 Aug 2019, Maureen Hilyard wrote:
> I agree with Sylvia and especially with regards to feedback to those whose > proposals are rejected. They need appropriate feedback that will help them > to produce the applications that are going to make the grade. This is more > needed by those from underserved communities that do not have experience in > writing such proposals yet are requesting something that is really > worthwhile.
I really do not think it is our job to tell people how to rewrite their proposals so they can reapply. (Will there even be a chance to reapply?)
If we want to provide grant writing help, we should make that part of the plan and not confuse it with the grant evaluation.
Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly _______________________________________________ Ccwg-auctionproceeds mailing list Ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ccwg-auctionproceeds _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
_______________________________________________ Ccwg-auctionproceeds mailing listCcwg-auctionproceeds@icann.orghttps://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ccwg-auctionproceeds _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
-- ------------------------------------------------ "It is a disgrace to be rich and honored in an unjust state" -Confucius 邦有道，贫且贱焉，耻也。邦无道，富且贵焉，耻也 ------------------------------------------------ Dr Sam Lanfranco (Prof Emeritus), Econ, York U., CANADA email: sam@lanfranco.net Skype: slanfranco blog: https://samlanfranco.blogspot.com Phone: +1 613-476-0429 cell: +1 416-816-2852
_______________________________________________ Ccwg-auctionproceeds mailing list Ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ccwg-auctionproceeds _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Even theoretically agreeing with Maureen, I see a great problem in responding all denied presentations. My proposal was to apply first with a small resume to not expend much time/people in the proposal analysis from both sides. With this, we can have as we do here, a template with the reasons to denied as one with next steps for the accepted, with instructions wil do the task For instance here the DENIED template states some of the reasons: - out of context ( could be out of ICANN mission ) - lack of innovation - existing studies ( solutions etc ) - lack of impact analysis ( demanding as previous justification) After the previous approval people that will make the full proposal with cost, detailed explanations and justifications can be also approved or rejected When not approved the feedback will state, for isntance: - inconsistency between Cost X project - inconsistency between time length X project - inadequate team - better structured similar projects With some templates the feedback is delivered with some information but the time consuming is minimum. Lack of capacitation certainly exist, but the Auction is there to get good results, not a program to capacitate on how to make good projects proposals My 2 cents Vanda Scartezini Polo Consultores Associados Av. Paulista 1159, cj 1004 01311-200- Sao Paulo, SP, Brazil Land Line: +55 11 3266.6253 Mobile: + 55 11 98181.1464 Sorry for any typos. On 8/20/19, 17:57, "Ccwg-auctionproceeds on behalf of John R Levine" <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org on behalf of johnl@taugh.com> wrote: On Tue, 20 Aug 2019, Maureen Hilyard wrote: > I agree with Sylvia and especially with regards to feedback to those whose > proposals are rejected. They need appropriate feedback that will help them > to produce the applications that are going to make the grade. This is more > needed by those from underserved communities that do not have experience in > writing such proposals yet are requesting something that is really > worthwhile. I really do not think it is our job to tell people how to rewrite their proposals so they can reapply. (Will there even be a chance to reapply?) If we want to provide grant writing help, we should make that part of the plan and not confuse it with the grant evaluation. Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly _______________________________________________ Ccwg-auctionproceeds mailing list Ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ccwg-auctionproceeds _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
I don't understand what you're proposing here. This looks like a combincation of a two-stage application process (which I suppose is OK for large grants but way too much work for small ones) and a more complex denial process in which the evaluators have to say why they refused a grant. What if there are three evaluators and they each have a different reason? It's going to be hard enough just to get to yes or no, so I am utterly opposed to any sort of explanation of why a grant was not approved. R's, John On Thu, 22 Aug 2019, Vanda Scartezini wrote:
Even theoretically agreeing with Maureen, I see a great problem in responding all denied presentations. My proposal was to apply first with a small resume to not expend much time/people in the proposal analysis from both sides. With this, we can have as we do here, a template with the reasons to denied as one with next steps for the accepted, with instructions wil do the task
For instance here the DENIED template states some of the reasons: - out of context ( could be out of ICANN mission ) - lack of innovation - existing studies ( solutions etc ) - lack of impact analysis ( demanding as previous justification)
After the previous approval people that will make the full proposal with cost, detailed explanations and justifications can be also approved or rejected When not approved the feedback will state, for isntance: - inconsistency between Cost X project - inconsistency between time length X project - inadequate team - better structured similar projects
With some templates the feedback is delivered with some information but the time consuming is minimum. Lack of capacitation certainly exist, but the Auction is there to get good results, not a program to capacitate on how to make good projects proposals
My 2 cents
Vanda Scartezini Polo Consultores Associados Av. Paulista 1159, cj 1004 01311-200- Sao Paulo, SP, Brazil Land Line: +55 11 3266.6253 Mobile: + 55 11 98181.1464 Sorry for any typos.
On 8/20/19, 17:57, "Ccwg-auctionproceeds on behalf of John R Levine" <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org on behalf of johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
On Tue, 20 Aug 2019, Maureen Hilyard wrote:
I agree with Sylvia and especially with regards to feedback to those whose proposals are rejected. They need appropriate feedback that will help them to produce the applications that are going to make the grade. This is more needed by those from underserved communities that do not have experience in writing such proposals yet are requesting something that is really worthwhile.
I really do not think it is our job to tell people how to rewrite their proposals so they can reapply. (Will there even be a chance to reapply?)
If we want to provide grant writing help, we should make that part of the plan and not confuse it with the grant evaluation.
Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly _______________________________________________ Ccwg-auctionproceeds mailing list Ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ccwg-auctionproceeds _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
Sylvia has my support too. Makes a lot of sense. Vanda Scartezini Polo Consultores Associados Av. Paulista 1159, cj 1004 01311-200- Sao Paulo, SP, Brazil Land Line: +55 11 3266.6253 Mobile: + 55 11 98181.1464 Sorry for any typos. From: Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Maureen Hilyard <maureen.hilyard@gmail.com> Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2019 at 17:42 To: Sylvia Cadena <sylvia@apnic.net> Cc: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com>, "ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org" <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism I agree with Sylvia and especially with regards to feedback to those whose proposals are rejected. They need appropriate feedback that will help them to produce the applications that are going to make the grade. This is more needed by those from underserved communities that do not have experience in writing such proposals yet are requesting something that is really worthwhile. Maureen On Mon, 19 Aug 2019, 9:30 PM Sylvia Cadena, <sylvia@apnic.net<mailto:sylvia@apnic.net>> wrote: The text below is ok, however, it is important to reiterate this should be observed independently of the mechanism selected. Maybe worth mentioning that if the mechanism A is selected, there may be other traditional ICANN practices/mechanisms that will not be applicable -not only the IRP- but that will be for the implementation phase to review and analyse. I also think the recommendation should not limit the feedback to the reason why they were not selected, as in some cases providing those reasons is not as simple to explain. Feedback to applicants about how to improve for future applications, feedback about what were the stronger parts or their proposal, feedback about the weakest part of the proposal, of funding availability are common ways to provide that feedback. Sometimes the committee can’t agree and a proposal doesn’t have full support but those discussions are not made public. Regards, Sylvia ________________________________________________________________________ Sylvia Cadena | APNIC Foundation - Head of Programs | sylvia@apnic.net<mailto:sylvia@apnic.net> | http://www.apnic.foundation ISIF Asia, WSIS Champion on International Cooperation 2018 & 2019 | http://www.isif.asia | FB ISIF.asia | @ISIF_Asia | G+ ISIFAsia | 6 Cordelia Street, South Brisbane, QLD, 4101 Australia | PO Box 3646 | +10 GMT | skypeID: sylviacadena | Tel: +61 7 3858 3100 | Fax: +61 7 3858 3199 * Love trees. Print only if necessary. From: Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org<mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Marika Konings <marika.konings@icann.org<mailto:marika.konings@icann.org>> Date: Tuesday, 20 August 2019 at 2:54 am To: Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca<mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca>>, "ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org<mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org>" <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org<mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org>>, Becky Burr <BBurr@hwglaw.com<mailto:BBurr@hwglaw.com>>, Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com<mailto:judith@jhellerstein.com>>, "erika@erikamann.com<mailto:erika@erikamann.com>" <erika@erikamann.com<mailto:erika@erikamann.com>> Cc: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com<mailto:johnl@taugh.com>> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism Dear All, Thank you all for your input. Hereby the current language of the draft Final Report which already addressed the point of the existing accountability mechanism with added in bold and brackets new language which aims to reflect the input received to date: The CCWG discussed whether an appeals mechanism should be available for applicant not selected and/but agreed that [this would create a level of complexity that was deemed not desirable or necessary, after having reviewed how other organizations deal with appeals. Instead, it is the expectation that applicants not selected would receive feedback as part of the response to their application outlining the reasons for why their application was not selected. Also, in the context of the regular review of the mechanisms, both selected applicants and non-selected applicants should be invited to participate and provide any feedback they may have on how the program can be further improved]. The CCWG did agree that appropriate measures should be taken that would exclude applicants from using ICANN accountability measures such as IRP. The reason for this recommendation is that the Board decision in this context would be in relation to the disbursement of funds based on the recommendations of the independent evaluation panel and not as a result of the ICANN’s Board assessment of an individual application. This should not necessarily prevent applicants from seeking redress through other means as defined by the mechanism responsible for disbursement of auction proceeds. CCWG Recommendation #NEW: Applicants should not have access to ICANN accountability mechanisms such as IRP to challenge a decision from the independent evaluation panel to not approve their application, but applicants [not selected should receive feedback as part of the response to their application outlining the reasons for why their application was not selected] have a mechanism available that allows them to provide additional clarifications to the independent evaluation panel or flag if it is believed that something in the application was misunderstood or missed. This will be on the agenda for Wednesday’s meeting so if you have any concerns about the proposed edits, please share these in advance of Wednesday’s meeting. Best regards, Marika From: Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org<mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca<mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca>> Date: Monday, August 19, 2019 at 10:22 To: "ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org<mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org>" <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org<mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org>>, Becky Burr <BBurr@hwglaw.com<mailto:BBurr@hwglaw.com>>, Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com<mailto:judith@jhellerstein.com>>, "erika@erikamann.com<mailto:erika@erikamann.com>" <erika@erikamann.com<mailto:erika@erikamann.com>> Cc: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com<mailto:johnl@taugh.com>>, "ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org<mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org>" <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org<mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism My recollection is that we were pretty clear that the existing accountabilty mechanisms would not apply, and that it is possible that a fundamental Bylaw change would be required to do that. Alan -- Sent from my mobile. Please excuse brevity and typos. On August 19, 2019 12:05:18 PM EDT, Becky Burr <BBurr@hwglaw.com<mailto:BBurr@hwglaw.com>> wrote: It will be particularly important that the final report be clear that the CCWG does not believe that ICANN’s existing accountability mechanisms (ombuds, Reconsiderations, or IRP) should be available to challenge an adverse grant decision. Those mechanisms are not well suited to this kind of situation. From: Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org<mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com<mailto:judith@jhellerstein.com>> Date: Saturday, August 17, 2019 at 9:14 PM To: Erika Mann <erika@erikamann.com<mailto:erika@erikamann.com>> Cc: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com<mailto:johnl@taugh.com>>, CCWG Auction Proceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org<mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism Hi Erika I agree as well. Sylvia made some excellent points. While I like the idea of an appeals process I can see that it adds an extra layer of complexity to the grant process Best Judith Sent from my iPhone Judith@jhellerstein.com<mailto:Judith@jhellerstein.com><mailto:Judith@jhellerstein.com<mailto:Judith@jhellerstein.com>> Skype ID:Judithhellerstein On Aug 17, 2019, at 7:23 AM, Erika Mann <erika@erikamann.com<mailto:erika@erikamann.com><mailto:erika@erikamann.com<mailto:erika@erikamann.com>>> wrote: I believe we have an agreement ... though we had such an agreement before but then Sam thought we should reconsider our understanding ... hopefully we can put this item to rest now. Erika Sent from my iPhone On Aug 17, 2019, at 12:21 PM, Marilyn Cade <marilynscade@hotmail.com<mailto:marilynscade@hotmail.com><mailto:marilynscade@hotmail.com<mailto:marilynscade@hotmail.com>>> wrote: Wow, are we seeing "general" support for no appeal mechanism? Perhaps we can put this sort of to 'bed'? Add something in our documentation - discussed extensively; considered; recommend that an appeal mechanism is not needed, and would add unneeded complexity, and include a paragraph of explanation, so that in the public comment process, the community commenting feels fully informed? ________________________________ From: Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org<mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org><mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org<mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org>>> on behalf of Vanda Scartezini <vanda@scartezini.org<mailto:vanda@scartezini.org><mailto:vanda@scartezini.org<mailto:vanda@scartezini.org>>> Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 12:12 AM To: Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com<mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com><mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com<mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com>>> Cc: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com<mailto:johnl@taugh.com><mailto:johnl@taugh.com<mailto:johnl@taugh.com>>>; CCWG Auction Proceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org<mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org><mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org<mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org>>> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism Make sense to me too. I was against an appeal as I said early on since that is the way all R&D grants here works and the independent panel and their report make the not appeal alternative accountable to the society. Not having appellation makes the process quicker allowing the start up of the projects while it makes sense due the development of the technology in the ICT field as is the case of DNS related issues Vanda Scartezini Sent from my iPad Sorry for any typos and misspellings On 17 Aug 2019, at 00:02, Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com<mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com><mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com<mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com>>> wrote: "That being said, grant applicants, both accepted and rejected, should be requested to fill out a survey with their input being used for the annul review of the program." End quote. This makes a lot of sense to me, given the the independent nature of the grant process being tabled. The strength of the selection process should be of sufficient integrity to forgo the additional cost of an appeals procedure which could be quite detrimental to the expected outcome and purpose of the grants. My view currently is to stay away from appeal procedures of all kinds; and fine tune the mechanisms to ensure that grant awards stay well within pre established control lines. There are already review mechanisms, designed to keep the process in line with ICANN's mission and purpose. I am thinking that in the context of an independent body, and the relative size of the fund, and the advice of others on this d list, no appeal process is going to be "very light weight" . I think, we should keep it out of the equation if at all possible. Each funding call should be drafted with this in mind... RD On Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 22:21 Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca<mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca><mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca<mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca>>> wrote: I agree with John. I do not think that we should have an appeal process. That being said, if we MUST have one it should: - be VERY light weight; - there must be VERY tight time requirements for submission - go to the manager of the selection group with the final result being final; - the final result being the project is accepted or still rejected. Specifically, there should be no "reason" given (as has recently been suggested). Note that we may end up rejecting perfectly good projects. But they may not, in the view of the evaluators, have a sufficiently high benefit:cost ration. Or we may simply have used up all of our funds for that period on projects that were better! As John mentions, cost is an issue. If there is an appeal process, and the cost is minimal or zero, it will be used by pretty much everyone who is rejected, significantly increasing the cost of the program with little positive outcome. That being said, grant applicants, both accepted and rejected, should be requested to fill out a survey with their input being used for the annul review of the program. Alan At 16/08/2019 09:46 PM, John R Levine wrote: Are we going to just ignore the input from people who actually run such grant making organizations @Sylvia Cadena<mailto:sylvia@apnic.net<mailto:sylvia@apnic.net><mailto:sylvia@apnic.net<mailto:sylvia@apnic.net>>> has weighed in on this with some factual statements that we seem to have just glossed over? I am a trustee of the Internet Society, where we have recently set up an actual captive grant making foundation with no appeal process, so no, we are not. It's a bad idea. R's, John At 15/08/2019 09:32 AM, John R Levine wrote: Following on from the last CCWG call and the input received on the individual appeals mechanism, please find attached an updated proposal for your review. Please share any comments, concerns or suggestions you may have in advance of the next CCWG meeting which has been scheduled for Wednesday 21 August. It's OK to have an appeal process but this leaves some rather important questions open, e.g. * Who pays for the appeal? Is it like UDRP where the parties split the cost, or is it all ICANN? * I expect that no matter what we say, most appeals will in fact be applicants who are unhappy that they didn't get funded. Is there a way to dispose of obviously bogus appeals efficiently? Obviously bogus means things like not identifying any process failure other than saying no. 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I fully agree, Becky, that the report we present should be clear about these distinctions. ________________________________ From: Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Becky Burr <BBurr@hwglaw.com> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 12:05 PM To: Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com>; Erika Mann <erika@erikamann.com> Cc: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com>; CCWG Auction Proceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism It will be particularly important that the final report be clear that the CCWG does not believe that ICANN’s existing accountability mechanisms (ombuds, Reconsiderations, or IRP) should be available to challenge an adverse grant decision. Those mechanisms are not well suited to this kind of situation. From: Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com> Date: Saturday, August 17, 2019 at 9:14 PM To: Erika Mann <erika@erikamann.com> Cc: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com>, CCWG Auction Proceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism Hi Erika I agree as well. Sylvia made some excellent points. While I like the idea of an appeals process I can see that it adds an extra layer of complexity to the grant process Best Judith Sent from my iPhone Judith@jhellerstein.com<mailto:Judith@jhellerstein.com> Skype ID:Judithhellerstein On Aug 17, 2019, at 7:23 AM, Erika Mann <erika@erikamann.com<mailto:erika@erikamann.com>> wrote: I believe we have an agreement ... though we had such an agreement before but then Sam thought we should reconsider our understanding ... hopefully we can put this item to rest now. Erika Sent from my iPhone On Aug 17, 2019, at 12:21 PM, Marilyn Cade <marilynscade@hotmail.com<mailto:marilynscade@hotmail.com>> wrote: Wow, are we seeing "general" support for no appeal mechanism? Perhaps we can put this sort of to 'bed'? Add something in our documentation - discussed extensively; considered; recommend that an appeal mechanism is not needed, and would add unneeded complexity, and include a paragraph of explanation, so that in the public comment process, the community commenting feels fully informed? ________________________________ From: Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org<mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Vanda Scartezini <vanda@scartezini.org<mailto:vanda@scartezini.org>> Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 12:12 AM To: Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com<mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com>> Cc: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com<mailto:johnl@taugh.com>>; CCWG Auction Proceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org<mailto:ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism Make sense to me too. I was against an appeal as I said early on since that is the way all R&D grants here works and the independent panel and their report make the not appeal alternative accountable to the society. Not having appellation makes the process quicker allowing the start up of the projects while it makes sense due the development of the technology in the ICT field as is the case of DNS related issues Vanda Scartezini Sent from my iPad Sorry for any typos and misspellings On 17 Aug 2019, at 00:02, Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com<mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com>> wrote: "That being said, grant applicants, both accepted and rejected, should be requested to fill out a survey with their input being used for the annul review of the program." End quote. This makes a lot of sense to me, given the the independent nature of the grant process being tabled. The strength of the selection process should be of sufficient integrity to forgo the additional cost of an appeals procedure which could be quite detrimental to the expected outcome and purpose of the grants. My view currently is to stay away from appeal procedures of all kinds; and fine tune the mechanisms to ensure that grant awards stay well within pre established control lines. There are already review mechanisms, designed to keep the process in line with ICANN's mission and purpose. I am thinking that in the context of an independent body, and the relative size of the fund, and the advice of others on this d list, no appeal process is going to be "very light weight" . I think, we should keep it out of the equation if at all possible. Each funding call should be drafted with this in mind... RD On Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 22:21 Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca<mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca>> wrote: I agree with John. I do not think that we should have an appeal process. That being said, if we MUST have one it should: - be VERY light weight; - there must be VERY tight time requirements for submission - go to the manager of the selection group with the final result being final; - the final result being the project is accepted or still rejected. Specifically, there should be no "reason" given (as has recently been suggested). Note that we may end up rejecting perfectly good projects. But they may not, in the view of the evaluators, have a sufficiently high benefit:cost ration. Or we may simply have used up all of our funds for that period on projects that were better! As John mentions, cost is an issue. If there is an appeal process, and the cost is minimal or zero, it will be used by pretty much everyone who is rejected, significantly increasing the cost of the program with little positive outcome. That being said, grant applicants, both accepted and rejected, should be requested to fill out a survey with their input being used for the annul review of the program. Alan At 16/08/2019 09:46 PM, John R Levine wrote:
Are we going to just ignore the input from people who actually run such grant making organizations @Sylvia Cadena<mailto:sylvia@apnic.net<mailto:sylvia@apnic.net>> has weighed in on this with some factual statements that we seem to have just glossed over?
I am a trustee of the Internet Society, where we have recently set up an actual captive grant making foundation with no appeal process, so no, we are not. It's a bad idea. R's, John At 15/08/2019 09:32 AM, John R Levine wrote:
Following on from the last CCWG call and the input received on the individual appeals mechanism, please find attached an updated proposal for your review. Please share any comments, concerns or suggestions you may have in advance of the next CCWG meeting which has been scheduled for Wednesday 21 August.
It's OK to have an appeal process but this leaves some rather important questions open, e.g.
* Who pays for the appeal? Is it like UDRP where the parties split the cost, or is it all ICANN?
* I expect that no matter what we say, most appeals will in fact be applicants who are unhappy that they didn't get funded. Is there a way to dispose of obviously bogus appeals efficiently? Obviously bogus means things like not identifying any process failure other than saying no.
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I agree, Becky On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 6:05 AM Becky Burr <BBurr@hwglaw.com> wrote:
It will be particularly important that the final report be clear that the CCWG does not believe that ICANN’s existing accountability mechanisms (ombuds, Reconsiderations, or IRP) should be available to challenge an adverse grant decision. Those mechanisms are not well suited to this kind of situation.
From: Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Judith Hellerstein <judith@jhellerstein.com> Date: Saturday, August 17, 2019 at 9:14 PM To: Erika Mann <erika@erikamann.com> Cc: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com>, CCWG Auction Proceeds < ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism
Hi Erika I agree as well. Sylvia made some excellent points. While I like the idea of an appeals process I can see that it adds an extra layer of complexity to the grant process
Best Judith Sent from my iPhone Judith@jhellerstein.com<mailto:Judith@jhellerstein.com> Skype ID:Judithhellerstein
On Aug 17, 2019, at 7:23 AM, Erika Mann <erika@erikamann.com<mailto: erika@erikamann.com>> wrote: I believe we have an agreement ... though we had such an agreement before but then Sam thought we should reconsider our understanding ... hopefully we can put this item to rest now.
Erika Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 17, 2019, at 12:21 PM, Marilyn Cade <marilynscade@hotmail.com <mailto:marilynscade@hotmail.com>> wrote: Wow, are we seeing "general" support for no appeal mechanism?
Perhaps we can put this sort of to 'bed'?
Add something in our documentation - discussed extensively; considered; recommend that an appeal mechanism is not needed, and would add unneeded complexity, and include a paragraph of explanation, so that in the public comment process, the community commenting feels fully informed?
________________________________ From: Ccwg-auctionproceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org<mailto: ccwg-auctionproceeds-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Vanda Scartezini < vanda@scartezini.org<mailto:vanda@scartezini.org>> Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 12:12 AM To: Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com<mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com>> Cc: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com<mailto:johnl@taugh.com>>; CCWG Auction Proceeds <ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org<mailto: ccwg-auctionproceeds@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Ccwg-auctionproceeds] For your review - updated proposal for individual appeals mechanism
Make sense to me too. I was against an appeal as I said early on since that is the way all R&D grants here works and the independent panel and their report make the not appeal alternative accountable to the society. Not having appellation makes the process quicker allowing the start up of the projects while it makes sense due the development of the technology in the ICT field as is the case of DNS related issues
Vanda Scartezini Sent from my iPad Sorry for any typos and misspellings
On 17 Aug 2019, at 00:02, Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com<mailto: rudi.daniel@gmail.com>> wrote: "That being said, grant applicants, both accepted and rejected, should be requested to fill out a survey with their input being used for the annul review of the program." End quote.
This makes a lot of sense to me, given the the independent nature of the grant process being tabled. The strength of the selection process should be of sufficient integrity to forgo the additional cost of an appeals procedure which could be quite detrimental to the expected outcome and purpose of the grants. My view currently is to stay away from appeal procedures of all kinds; and fine tune the mechanisms to ensure that grant awards stay well within pre established control lines. There are already review mechanisms, designed to keep the process in line with ICANN's mission and purpose. I am thinking that in the context of an independent body, and the relative size of the fund, and the advice of others on this d list, no appeal process is going to be "very light weight" .
I think, we should keep it out of the equation if at all possible. Each funding call should be drafted with this in mind... RD
On Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 22:21 Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca <mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca>> wrote: I agree with John. I do not think that we should have an appeal process. That being said, if we MUST have one it should:
- be VERY light weight; - there must be VERY tight time requirements for submission - go to the manager of the selection group with the final result being final; - the final result being the project is accepted or still rejected. Specifically, there should be no "reason" given (as has recently been suggested).
Note that we may end up rejecting perfectly good projects. But they may not, in the view of the evaluators, have a sufficiently high benefit:cost ration. Or we may simply have used up all of our funds for that period on projects that were better!
As John mentions, cost is an issue. If there is an appeal process, and the cost is minimal or zero, it will be used by pretty much everyone who is rejected, significantly increasing the cost of the program with little positive outcome.
That being said, grant applicants, both accepted and rejected, should be requested to fill out a survey with their input being used for the annul review of the program.
Alan
At 16/08/2019 09:46 PM, John R Levine wrote:
Are we going to just ignore the input from people who actually run such grant making organizations @Sylvia Cadena<mailto:sylvia@apnic.net<mailto:sylvia@apnic.net>> has weighed in on this with some factual statements that we seem to have just glossed over?
I am a trustee of the Internet Society, where we have recently set up an actual captive grant making foundation with no appeal process, so no, we are not. It's a bad idea.
R's, John
At 15/08/2019 09:32 AM, John R Levine wrote:
Following on from the last CCWG call and the input received on the individual appeals mechanism, please find attached an updated proposal for your review. Please share any comments, concerns or suggestions you may have in advance of the next CCWG meeting which has been scheduled for Wednesday 21 August.
It's OK to have an appeal process but this leaves some rather important questions open, e.g.
* Who pays for the appeal? Is it like UDRP where the parties split the cost, or is it all ICANN?
* I expect that no matter what we say, most appeals will in fact be applicants who are unhappy that they didn't get funded. Is there a way to dispose of obviously bogus appeals efficiently? Obviously bogus means things like not identifying any process failure other than saying no.
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participants (12)
-
Alan Greenberg -
Becky Burr -
Erika Mann -
John R Levine -
Judith Hellerstein -
Marika Konings -
Marilyn Cade -
Maureen Hilyard -
Rudolph Daniel -
Sam Lanfranco -
Sylvia Cadena -
Vanda Scartezini