Hi all, I'm not sure which version we're checking now, but I want to point out that the version I see, where it says 'the NCSG expressed its opposition to the conversation between the Council and the GAC* on this subject*' is inaccurate. As we have repeatedly stated, it's not the subject of the dialogue we oppose, but the approach initiated by the Board. I strongly opposed the edits as it mischaracterize NCSG's position and reasons for objection. I would suggest we just keep the sentence as it was, better if we add a line of clarification: While the Council is willing to pursue these next steps, it is important to note that Non-Commercial Stakeholders Group expressed its opposition to the approach. The NCSG will communicate directly to the Board regarding the rationale of their opposition. Many thanks, Manju On Tue, Apr 26, 2022 at 7:40 AM Justine Chew via council < council@gnso.icann.org> wrote:
Dear Philippe,
Thank you for taking on board my suggestion -- what you have included in your version 4 at the end of para 3 works for me.
Best, Justine
On Tue, 26 Apr 2022 at 00:45, <philippe.fouquart@orange.com> wrote:
Thanks Paul, you might indeed, you might :) I have the same impression of there being nothing controversial in these changes, but they provide useful context, hence the suggested inclusion.
I should have said shorter, in fact, rather than concise.
Best,
Philippe
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*From:* McGrady, Jr., Paul D. <PMcGrady@taftlaw.com> *Sent:* Monday, April 25, 2022 6:31 PM *To:* FOUQUART Philippe INNOV/NET <philippe.fouquart@orange.com>; Justine Chew <justine.chew.icann@gmail.com>; council@gnso icann. org < council@gnso.icann.org> *Cc:* Jeff Neuman <jeff@jjnsolutions.com>; Kurt Pritz <kurt@kjpritz.com>; GNSO Secs <gnso-secs@icann.org> *Subject:* RE: [council] Draft letter to the Board on closed generics dialogue
Thanks Phillippe. Since Justine didn’t express what the ALAC did not like about my proposed enhancements, and since being concise means “brief but *comprehensive*”, might I *cheekily* suggest that my very modest changes resulted in the more concise version since I really do believe that some of the framing in your initial draft didn’t contain all of the necessary information needed for the Board to understand where we are coming from on this. Nothing I included should be controversial.
Best,
Paul
*From:* philippe.fouquart@orange.com <philippe.fouquart@orange.com> *Sent:* Monday, April 25, 2022 11:24 AM *To:* Justine Chew <justine.chew.icann@gmail.com>; McGrady, Jr., Paul D. <PMcGrady@taftlaw.com>; council@gnso icann. org <council@gnso.icann.org> *Cc:* Jeff Neuman <jeff@jjnsolutions.com>; Kurt Pritz <kurt@kjpritz.com>; GNSO Secs <gnso-secs@icann.org> *Subject:* RE: [council] Draft letter to the Board on closed generics dialogue
[EXTERNAL MESSAGE]
[responding to Justine’s email that followed Paul’s]
Dear Councilors,
Paul’s suggestions seem to be essentially quoting the letter and framing paper – however, if like Justine below, some councilors would consider that context to be unnecessary or restrictive, let the list know, (and if so, for ease of editing and given the time constraint we’d revert back to the previous - more concise - version)
@Justine <justine.chew.icann@gmail.com> I’ve slightly reworded your other suggestion to make it sound less one-directional, at the risk of stating the obvious. Hope that’ll work.
Thank you.
Philippe
*From:* Justine Chew <justine.chew.icann@gmail.com> *Sent:* Monday, April 25, 2022 10:36 AM *To:* McGrady, Jr., Paul D. <PMcGrady@taftlaw.com>; FOUQUART Philippe INNOV/NET <philippe.fouquart@orange.com> *Cc:* Jeff Neuman <jeff@jjnsolutions.com>; Kurt Pritz <kurt@kjpritz.com>; GNSO Secs <gnso-secs@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [council] Draft letter to the Board on closed generics dialogue
Hello Paul,
I think the simpler version 2 of the draft reply with amendments as proposed by Philippe regarding references to (a) NCSG's letter and (b) "modalities" is sufficient for the present purposes.
Hello Philippe,
My 3rd point was a suggestion to indicate that Council is undertaking some thinking for the dialogue, so, perhaps something along the lines of the following could be considered? While I won't insist on it, I think it's useful to provide some context on the timing of this response.
*It is on that basis that the Council is willing to pursue next steps for the facilitated dialogue, subject to mutual agreement with the GAC on the conditions which the Council is preparing to propose for that dialogue.*
Thanks, Justine
On Sat, 23 Apr 2022 at 04:11, McGrady, Jr., Paul D. <PMcGrady@taftlaw.com> wrote:
Thanks Philippe, Kurt, Justine, and Jeff.
Dear All:
I’m happy with the NCSG’s letter being attached, or not, but I do think it is important to at least call it out since we don’t want to give the misimpression that the Council is completely unified on this topic. I for one have a *great deal of sympathy* with the idea that GAC advice should not restart policy work in the GNSO, but rather the Board needs to figure out how to implement (via IRT) both the completed policy Recommendations and the GAC advice in the next version of the Applicant Guidebook (like they did with much of the GAC advice that rolled in after the policy work was done for the first round). Hopefully something will come out of this dialogue that helps in that process.
As for the letter itself, I think we could just as easily say “Dear Board, of course we are happy to talk with the GAC about their concerns. We will reach out to them and get it set up.” But, we do like our letters here in ICANNland, so my marked up version (based off the last version sent by Philippe) is attached. If we are going to frame the issues, instead of just a quick “we are on it” response, I think a tiny bit of more detail of how we got here makes sense. Hopefully my proposed changes (which are in red on my screen) will be viewed as friendly amendments, which is the spirit in which they are offered.
Thank all!
Best,
Paul
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*From:* council <council-bounces@gnso.icann.org> *On Behalf Of *philippe.fouquart--- via council *Sent:* Friday, April 22, 2022 1:57 PM *To:* Jeff Neuman <jeff@jjnsolutions.com>; Justine Chew < justine.chew.icann@gmail.com>; Kurt Pritz <kurt@kjpritz.com> *Cc:* GNSO Secs <gnso-secs@icann.org>; council@gnso icann. org < council@gnso.icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [council] Draft letter to the Board on closed generics dialogue
[EXTERNAL MESSAGE]
Kurt, Justine, Jeff, thanks for the inputs.
On 1) and reference to the NCSG’s letter: The reference is on record with the minutes, and can also be found in the Council list archive, I don’t think there’s any risk this goes unnoticed, I’d suggest we simply say While the Council is willing to pursue these next steps, it is important to note that Non-Commercial Stakeholders Group expressed its opposition to the approach.
Manju (since it is you who spoke on this during our call): would you be fine with this?
On 2) and modalities, I’d suggest we go for Jeff’s edits and simply say in the second paragraph:
The Council is appreciative of the ICANN Board’s attention to GNSO related matters and is willing to pursue next steps for the facilitated dialogue, subject to mutual agreement with the GAC on the conditions for that dialogue.
Ironically, in French, the equivalent of ‘modalities’ has a sense of a series of menial tasks that the authors would consider a) quite straightforward and b) as a result, generally not worth doing by themselves. Neither of which would probably be true here I think.
It seems 2) alleviates the need to elaborate as, Justine, you suggested with your 3rd point but let us know if it doesn’t work.
As attached with diff marks.
Regards,
Philippe
*From:* Jeff Neuman <jeff@jjnsolutions.com> *Sent:* Friday, April 22, 2022 3:48 PM *To:* Justine Chew <justine.chew.icann@gmail.com>; Kurt Pritz < kurt@kjpritz.com>; FOUQUART Philippe INNOV/NET < philippe.fouquart@orange.com> *Cc:* GNSO Secs <gnso-secs@icann.org>; council@gnso icann. org < council@gnso.icann.org> *Subject:* RE: [council] Draft letter to the Board on closed generics dialogue
I strongly urge that the letter from the NCSG is not included with this letter. As Justine states, there are some mischaracterizations in that letter and as far as I am aware the rest of the Council does not agree with the opinions expressed by the NCSG. You can indicate that the NCSG opposed the meeting in the letter without any attachments. If you include the NCSG letter, would you consider adding letters from the other SGs and Cs that are in support of the meeting? I believe the best way is to note the NCSG’s disagreement, but not attach anything.
And with respect to the word “modalities”, it is an unnecessary word. A “modality” is a condition is it not? So I would just state: “….that the Council is willing to pursue next steps for the facilitated dialogue, subject to mutual agreement with the GAC on the conditions for that dialogue.”
Jeffrey J. Neuman
Founder & CEO
JJN Solutions, LLC
p: +1.202.549.5079
E: jeff@jjnsolutions.com
*From:* council <council-bounces@gnso.icann.org> *On Behalf Of *Justine Chew via council *Sent:* Thursday, April 21, 2022 8:12 PM *To:* Kurt Pritz <kurt@kjpritz.com>; Philippe Fouquart < philippe.fouquart@orange.com> *Cc:* GNSO Secs <gnso-secs@icann.org>; council@gnso icann. org < council@gnso.icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [council] Draft letter to the Board on closed generics dialogue
Hello Philippe, Kurt,
1. I agree with Kurt on the NCSG letter, and if it were to be included, I think we should at least address the assertion that "GAC has been silent since 2013 on the matter of Closed Generics" as called out by Jeff as a mis-characterization of the GAC on the part of NCSG.
2. I understand the word "modalities" to mean "ways of doing something", but if there's a better word to address Kurt's concerns then by all means, let's consider that.
3. Would it be feasible to add to the end of the second paragraph, a suggestion that "the conditions and modalities for that dialogue" will be forthcoming? That would indicate that Council is giving thought to those and will continue to do so (hence allowing for the Closed Generics small team leeway to do its work).
Thanks for considering.
Kind regards, Justine
On Fri, 22 Apr 2022 at 06:54, Kurt Pritz via council < council@gnso.icann.org> wrote:
Hi Philippe:
Two comments:
1. If the NCSG has requested that reference to their comment should be included it in the letter, then we should include it. If not, you might ask if they want that (and if they do, include it). I don’t think it adds value at this point — but will add value as we get into the meeting set-up, the discussion scope, and the actions taken with any recommendations that come out of the meeting.
2. I personally recommend that we avoid the use of the term ‘modalities.’ I don’t know what it means and, if participating in a group tasked with identifying them, I wouldn’t know what they are. I right clicked on the word and found that Microsoft knows of no synonyms. I looked it up in a popular online dictionary and came up with:
— the quality or state of being modal; a modal quality or attribute;
— the classification of logical propositions according to their asserting or denying the possibility, impossibility, contingency, or necessity of their content;
— one of the main avenues of sensation (such as vision);
— a usually physical therapeutic agency
Not getting the sense from there, I looked for its use in a sentence and found:
"Ineluctable modality of the visible: at least that if no more, thought through my eyes.” *The New Yorker, 7 Feb. 2022*
That did not help me understand the definition but did tell me a lot about the kind of people that use the word. I understand the word is commonly used in governmental settings but we needn’t adopt the custom if it is not clarifying or helpful.
Slightly more seriously, when we meet among ourselves and with the GAC, we should all understand the target and “modalities” seems too broad. It would be helpful for me (maybe it is just me) to replace the word with commonly spoken terms or to parenthetically define it.
Thanks for listening,
Kurt
On Apr 22, 2022, at 3:32 AM, philippe.fouquart--- via council < council@gnso.icann.org> wrote:
Dear Councilors,
Please find attached for you review a draft response letter to the ICANN Board on closed generics. It intends to capture the conclusions of our discussion during the Council call last week.
We would like to have it ready for the Board workshop next week, so please have a look before April 27th 1200 UTC (Wednesday)
Thanks.
Regards,
Philippe
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