In case of interest (and sorry to be posting so much on this) the point about abstentions not counting as a vote is standard practise in all other international organisations. The definitive rules of procedure in international relations are those of the UN General Assembly; these rules date back in their original version to a codification of customary Rules of Procedure which was made for the Congress of Vienna early in the 19th century. The Rules have been continually amended and improved ever since. Robert's Rules of Order and all other recognised rules of procedure are all derived from the UN General Assembly Rules. http://documents.un.org/mother.asp Philip
Hi, It seems the question before the council really boils down to: Is the default vote: - majority of house members - majortiy of votes cast. From http://www.robertsrules.com/faq.html#6
In the usual situation, where either a majority vote or a two-thirds vote is required, abstentions have absolutely no effect on the outcome of the vote since what is required is either a majority or two thirds of the votes cast. On the other hand, if the vote required is a majority or two thirds of the members present, or a majority or two thirds of the entire membership, an abstention will have the same effect as a "no" vote. Even in such a case, however, an abstention is not a vote. [RONR (10th ed.), p. 387, l. 7-13; p. 388, l. 3-6; p. 390, l. 13-24; see also p.66 of RONR In Brief.]
It seems that either way of going is ok to the RONR. And it is not really a matter of what 'to abstain ' means. You are right about this. The same reference says:
The phrase "abstention votes" is an oxymoron, an abstention being a refusal to vote. To abstain means to refrain from voting, and, as a consequence, there can be no such thing as an "abstention vote."
As I understand the UN charter, some votes are defined as votes cast and some have a standard threshold. (coincidentally was just reviewing it yesterday because of a statement I heard while listening to the Libyan speech) The recently approved ByLaws contains: GNSO Council motion or other voting action requires a simple majority vote of each House. The Operating Procedures contains and instance of: a motion must attain a majority of the votes cast and 2 instances of: majority vote of each house Chuck's proposed amendment seems to seek bring that one instance in the Operating Procedures into line with the ByLaws. If the council votes against the amendment and therefore leave the Operating Procedures in disagreement with the ByLaws, I think we will then need to request a further change of the ByLaws from the board in this matter. rgds, a. On 24 Sep 2009, at 06:15, Philip Sheppard wrote:
In case of interest (and sorry to be posting so much on this) the point about abstentions not counting as a vote is standard practise in all other international organisations.
The definitive rules of procedure in international relations are those of the UN General Assembly; these rules date back in their original version to a codification of customary Rules of Procedure which was made for the Congress of Vienna early in the 19th century. The Rules have been continually amended and improved ever since. Robert's Rules of Order and all other recognised rules of procedure are all derived from the UN General Assembly Rules.
http://documents.un.org/mother.asp
Philip
Thanks for this info Philip. It is good to know. It seems to me that this will come down to what our objectives are with regard to this issue. Do we want the procedures to be consistent with the Bylaws or do we want to request another change in the Bylaws? Do we want to attempt to always get maximum support for all decisions or are there exceptions where less than majority support is okay? I am not assuming that I have the right answers to these questions but I think they are good ones to discuss. Chuck ________________________________ From: owner-council@gnso.icann.org [mailto:owner-council@gnso.icann.org] On Behalf Of Philip Sheppard Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 6:15 AM To: 'Council GNSO' Subject: [council] Abstentions In case of interest (and sorry to be posting so much on this) the point about abstentions not counting as a vote is standard practise in all other international organisations. The definitive rules of procedure in international relations are those of the UN General Assembly; these rules date back in their original version to a codification of customary Rules of Procedure which was made for the Congress of Vienna early in the 19th century. The Rules have been continually amended and improved ever since. Robert's Rules of Order and all other recognised rules of procedure are all derived from the UN General Assembly Rules. http://documents.un.org/mother.asp Philip
Chuck, let me know if I missed something but I fear the bylaws are silent on this issue. The point as yet undefined is as Avri started to define the follows. We have defined a set of voting thresholds 25%, 60 % etc in the bylaws and a catch all 50% threshold for anything else. We have not defined the denominator. 25% of what ? etc There are three options of the denominator: 1. Total seats (ie the 13 and the 7) (abstentions question NOT relevant) 2. Members present for the vote (abstentions question relevant) 3. Votes cast (abstentions question relevant) Given quorum there are not many variants and table could be made to show them. But we need to be clear which one we choose. Part of the decision is also based on an assumption of status quo. Is the (policy) status quo today a good place to be? if yes, adopt a conservative approach to change. Is the (policy) status quo today a poor place to be? if yes, adopt a liberal approach to change. You and I might disagree on this one !
The Bylaws thresholds describe threshold percents by House. I assumed that means all votes in the House. If it doesn't, then all the work we did in reaching consensus on the thresholds would seem to lose meaning in my opinon. Chuck ________________________________ From: owner-council@gnso.icann.org [mailto:owner-council@gnso.icann.org] On Behalf Of Philip Sheppard Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 8:51 AM To: 'Council GNSO' Subject: [council] Abstentions Chuck, let me know if I missed something but I fear the bylaws are silent on this issue. The point as yet undefined is as Avri started to define the follows. We have defined a set of voting thresholds 25%, 60 % etc in the bylaws and a catch all 50% threshold for anything else. We have not defined the denominator. 25% of what ? etc There are three options of the denominator: 1. Total seats (ie the 13 and the 7) (abstentions question NOT relevant) 2. Members present for the vote (abstentions question relevant) 3. Votes cast (abstentions question relevant) Given quorum there are not many variants and table could be made to show them. But we need to be clear which one we choose. Part of the decision is also based on an assumption of status quo. Is the (policy) status quo today a good place to be? if yes, adopt a conservative approach to change. Is the (policy) status quo today a poor place to be? if yes, adopt a liberal approach to change. You and I might disagree on this one !
participants (3)
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Avri Doria -
Gomes, Chuck -
Philip Sheppard