Agenda for GNSO Council Meetings in Beijing
All, We are on track with a team to work with peers in the ccNSO in order to develop the proposed topics for our meeting with the ccNSO. As far as our prospective meeting with the GAC Is concerned, that is still work in progress, so for now that leaves meeting with the ICANN Board and the CEO. Typically in the past, these meetings have consisted of our topics / their topics and my sense is that we have, at least at times, talked past one another. However, it is clearly still very useful to have a view on key areas we like to see covered in our interaction with the CEO and the board and to do the preparatory work on these. With the above in mind, I'd welcome input that proposes topics for either or both of these interactions. Once we settle on the topics (I have contacted both the board and the CEO in order to collaborate on these) we'll likely need volunteers to develop the topics and potentially lead the discussions. Therefore, please can you propose one or more topics for either or both sessions (with CEO and Board) as soon as possible. Thank-you. Jonathan
With the Board, I think it is imperative that we talk about our views on the multi-stakeholder process and the recent measures we have seen that we believe erode away at that model. Jeffrey J. Neuman Neustar, Inc. / Vice President, Business Affairs From: owner-council@gnso.icann.org [mailto:owner-council@gnso.icann.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan Robinson Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 2:48 PM To: council@gnso.icann.org Subject: [council] Agenda for GNSO Council Meetings in Beijing All, We are on track with a team to work with peers in the ccNSO in order to develop the proposed topics for our meeting with the ccNSO. As far as our prospective meeting with the GAC Is concerned, that is still work in progress, so for now that leaves meeting with the ICANN Board and the CEO. Typically in the past, these meetings have consisted of our topics / their topics and my sense is that we have, at least at times, talked past one another. However, it is clearly still very useful to have a view on key areas we like to see covered in our interaction with the CEO and the board and to do the preparatory work on these. With the above in mind, I'd welcome input that proposes topics for either or both of these interactions. Once we settle on the topics (I have contacted both the board and the CEO in order to collaborate on these) we'll likely need volunteers to develop the topics and potentially lead the discussions. Therefore, please can you propose one or more topics for either or both sessions (with CEO and Board) as soon as possible. Thank-you. Jonathan
Thanks Jeff. I agree and think it may even be necessary to go back to first principles on the function and role of the GNSO Council within the GNSO and in the context of the overall multi-stakeholder model. From: Neuman, Jeff [mailto:Jeff.Neuman@neustar.us] Sent: 19 March 2013 19:01 To: Jonathan Robinson; council@gnso.icann.org Subject: RE: [council] Agenda for GNSO Council Meetings in Beijing With the Board, I think it is imperative that we talk about our views on the multi-stakeholder process and the recent measures we have seen that we believe erode away at that model. Jeffrey J. Neuman Neustar, Inc. / Vice President, Business Affairs From: owner-council@gnso.icann.org [mailto:owner-council@gnso.icann.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan Robinson Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 2:48 PM To: council@gnso.icann.org Subject: [council] Agenda for GNSO Council Meetings in Beijing All, We are on track with a team to work with peers in the ccNSO in order to develop the proposed topics for our meeting with the ccNSO. As far as our prospective meeting with the GAC Is concerned, that is still work in progress, so for now that leaves meeting with the ICANN Board and the CEO. Typically in the past, these meetings have consisted of our topics / their topics and my sense is that we have, at least at times, talked past one another. However, it is clearly still very useful to have a view on key areas we like to see covered in our interaction with the CEO and the board and to do the preparatory work on these. With the above in mind, I'd welcome input that proposes topics for either or both of these interactions. Once we settle on the topics (I have contacted both the board and the CEO in order to collaborate on these) we'll likely need volunteers to develop the topics and potentially lead the discussions. Therefore, please can you propose one or more topics for either or both sessions (with CEO and Board) as soon as possible. Thank-you. Jonathan
Thanks Jonathan and Jeff, For our meeting with the Board, NCSG agrees that multistakholder engagement should be top of the agenda (we noted the issue as Bottom-up multi-stakeholderism versus ICANN unilateralism). In addition, we'd suggest consideration of Definition of the "public interest" at ICANN; ICANN engagement & outreach plans; and possibly New constituencies. Best, -Wendy On 03/19/2013 03:10 PM, Jonathan Robinson wrote:
Thanks Jeff. I agree and think it may even be necessary to go back to first principles on the function and role of the GNSO Council within the GNSO and in the context of the overall multi-stakeholder model.
From: Neuman, Jeff [mailto:Jeff.Neuman@neustar.us] Sent: 19 March 2013 19:01 To: Jonathan Robinson; council@gnso.icann.org Subject: RE: [council] Agenda for GNSO Council Meetings in Beijing
With the Board, I think it is imperative that we talk about our views on the multi-stakeholder process and the recent measures we have seen that we believe erode away at that model.
Jeffrey J. Neuman Neustar, Inc. / Vice President, Business Affairs
From: owner-council@gnso.icann.org [mailto:owner-council@gnso.icann.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan Robinson Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 2:48 PM To: council@gnso.icann.org Subject: [council] Agenda for GNSO Council Meetings in Beijing
All,
We are on track with a team to work with peers in the ccNSO in order to develop the proposed topics for our meeting with the ccNSO.
As far as our prospective meeting with the GAC Is concerned, that is still work in progress, so for now that leaves meeting with the ICANN Board and the CEO.
Typically in the past, these meetings have consisted of our topics / their topics and my sense is that we have, at least at times, talked past one another.
However, it is clearly still very useful to have a view on key areas we like to see covered in our interaction with the CEO and the board and to do the preparatory work on these.
With the above in mind, I'd welcome input that proposes topics for either or both of these interactions.
Once we settle on the topics (I have contacted both the board and the CEO in order to collaborate on these) we'll likely need volunteers to develop the topics and potentially lead the discussions.
Therefore, please can you propose one or more topics for either or both sessions (with CEO and Board) as soon as possible.
Thank-you.
Jonathan
-- Wendy Seltzer -- wendy@seltzer.org +1 617.863.0613 Policy Counsel, World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) Fellow, Berkman Center for Internet & Society at Harvard University Visiting Fellow, Yale Law School Information Society Project http://wendy.seltzer.org/ https://www.chillingeffects.org/ https://www.torproject.org/ http://www.freedom-to-tinker.com/
All, My suggested process is as follows: 1. Create an agreed list of topics (which may need to be pared back) 2. Seek volunteers to introduce and open the topic in the discussion in Beijing In order to prepare, I met with Steve Crocker late last week and talked with him about how we might best interact. I shared with him my sense that our interactions have not always been productive and that we have, at least at times in in some prior interactions, talked past one another. As a consequence, we agreed to experiment with a new approach as follows: We (the GNSO Council) define topics we wish to discuss with the board. Say 3-5 topics. The board will leave that to us. We pull together a sub-group of Councillors who can introduce these topics effectively and, prior to meeting with the board, discuss them with GNSO board members Bruce Tonkin and Bill Graham. The purpose of working with Bill & Graham is to develop and frame the topics in a way which will be most constructive in our interaction with the board. So far, we have some topics on the list as follows: 1. Multi-stakeholder model & processes and recent activities that challenge the model. 2. The concept of Public Interest within the ICANN model 3. ICANN engagement & outreach 4. New constituencies I urge you to come forward and support these, suggest that they are modified or removed and, potentially, offer to lead these. I feel we are at a pivotal point in time for many reasons. We have an opportunity to take advantage of face-to-face interaction with the Board and engage effectively. I look forward to further input from you and then engaging Bill & Bruce on this next week. I hope I haven't left out previous suggestions, please remind me if I have. Thank-you, Jonathan -----Original Message----- From: owner-council@gnso.icann.org [mailto:owner-council@gnso.icann.org] On Behalf Of Wendy Seltzer Sent: 20 March 2013 14:58 To: Jonathan Robinson Cc: 'Neuman, Jeff'; council@gnso.icann.org Subject: Re: [council] Agenda for GNSO Council Meetings in Beijing / Council-Board Thanks Jonathan and Jeff, For our meeting with the Board, NCSG agrees that multistakholder engagement should be top of the agenda (we noted the issue as Bottom-up multi-stakeholderism versus ICANN unilateralism). In addition, we'd suggest consideration of Definition of the "public interest" at ICANN; ICANN engagement & outreach plans; and possibly New constituencies. Best, -Wendy On 03/19/2013 03:10 PM, Jonathan Robinson wrote:
Thanks Jeff. I agree and think it may even be necessary to go back to first principles on the function and role of the GNSO Council within the GNSO and in the context of the overall multi-stakeholder model.
From: Neuman, Jeff [mailto:Jeff.Neuman@neustar.us] Sent: 19 March 2013 19:01 To: Jonathan Robinson; council@gnso.icann.org Subject: RE: [council] Agenda for GNSO Council Meetings in Beijing
With the Board, I think it is imperative that we talk about our views on the multi-stakeholder process and the recent measures we have seen that we believe erode away at that model.
Jeffrey J. Neuman Neustar, Inc. / Vice President, Business Affairs
From: owner-council@gnso.icann.org [mailto:owner-council@gnso.icann.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan Robinson Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 2:48 PM To: council@gnso.icann.org Subject: [council] Agenda for GNSO Council Meetings in Beijing
All,
We are on track with a team to work with peers in the ccNSO in order to develop the proposed topics for our meeting with the ccNSO.
As far as our prospective meeting with the GAC Is concerned, that is still work in progress, so for now that leaves meeting with the ICANN Board and the CEO.
Typically in the past, these meetings have consisted of our topics / their topics and my sense is that we have, at least at times, talked past one another.
However, it is clearly still very useful to have a view on key areas we like to see covered in our interaction with the CEO and the board and to do the preparatory work on these.
With the above in mind, I'd welcome input that proposes topics for either or both of these interactions.
Once we settle on the topics (I have contacted both the board and the CEO in order to collaborate on these) we'll likely need volunteers to develop the topics and potentially lead the discussions.
Therefore, please can you propose one or more topics for either or both sessions (with CEO and Board) as soon as possible.
Thank-you.
Jonathan
-- Wendy Seltzer -- wendy@seltzer.org +1 617.863.0613 Policy Counsel, World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) Fellow, Berkman Center for Internet & Society at Harvard University Visiting Fellow, Yale Law School Information Society Project http://wendy.seltzer.org/ https://www.chillingeffects.org/ https://www.torproject.org/ http://www.freedom-to-tinker.com/
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi Jonathan - I think that is a sensible approach and has more of a constructive dialogue flavour, which I think has been lacking. Thanks for your work Joy On 27/03/2013 10:17 a.m., Jonathan Robinson wrote:
All,
My suggested process is as follows:
1. Create an agreed list of topics (which may need to be pared back) 2. Seek volunteers to introduce and open the topic in the discussion in Beijing
In order to prepare, I met with Steve Crocker late last week and talked with him about how we might best interact. I shared with him my sense that our interactions have not always been productive and that we have, at least at times in in some prior interactions, talked past one another. As a consequence, we agreed to experiment with a new approach as follows:
We (the GNSO Council) define topics we wish to discuss with the board. Say 3-5 topics. The board will leave that to us. We pull together a sub-group of Councillors who can introduce these topics effectively and, prior to meeting with the board, discuss them with GNSO board members Bruce Tonkin and Bill Graham. The purpose of working with Bill & Graham is to develop and frame the topics in a way which will be most constructive in our interaction with the board.
So far, we have some topics on the list as follows:
1. Multi-stakeholder model & processes and recent activities that challenge the model. 2. The concept of Public Interest within the ICANN model 3. ICANN engagement & outreach 4. New constituencies
I urge you to come forward and support these, suggest that they are modified or removed and, potentially, offer to lead these.
I feel we are at a pivotal point in time for many reasons. We have an opportunity to take advantage of face-to-face interaction with the Board and engage effectively.
I look forward to further input from you and then engaging Bill & Bruce on this next week. I hope I haven't left out previous suggestions, please remind me if I have.
Thank-you,
Jonathan
-----Original Message----- From: owner-council@gnso.icann.org [mailto:owner-council@gnso.icann.org] On Behalf Of Wendy Seltzer Sent: 20 March 2013 14:58 To: Jonathan Robinson Cc: 'Neuman, Jeff'; council@gnso.icann.org Subject: Re: [council] Agenda for GNSO Council Meetings in Beijing / Council-Board
Thanks Jonathan and Jeff,
For our meeting with the Board, NCSG agrees that multistakholder engagement should be top of the agenda (we noted the issue as Bottom-up multi-stakeholderism versus ICANN unilateralism).
In addition, we'd suggest consideration of Definition of the "public interest" at ICANN; ICANN engagement & outreach plans; and possibly New constituencies.
Best, -Wendy
On 03/19/2013 03:10 PM, Jonathan Robinson wrote:
Thanks Jeff. I agree and think it may even be necessary to go back to first principles on the function and role of the GNSO Council within the GNSO and in the context of the overall multi-stakeholder model.
From: Neuman, Jeff [mailto:Jeff.Neuman@neustar.us] Sent: 19 March 2013 19:01 To: Jonathan Robinson; council@gnso.icann.org Subject: RE: [council] Agenda for GNSO Council Meetings in Beijing
With the Board, I think it is imperative that we talk about our views on the multi-stakeholder process and the recent measures we have seen that we believe erode away at that model.
Jeffrey J. Neuman Neustar, Inc. / Vice President, Business Affairs
From: owner-council@gnso.icann.org [mailto:owner-council@gnso.icann.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan Robinson Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 2:48 PM To: council@gnso.icann.org Subject: [council] Agenda for GNSO Council Meetings in Beijing
All,
We are on track with a team to work with peers in the ccNSO in order to develop the proposed topics for our meeting with the ccNSO.
As far as our prospective meeting with the GAC Is concerned, that is still work in progress, so for now that leaves meeting with the ICANN Board and the CEO.
Typically in the past, these meetings have consisted of our topics / their topics and my sense is that we have, at least at times, talked past one another.
However, it is clearly still very useful to have a view on key areas we like to see covered in our interaction with the CEO and the board and to do the preparatory work on these.
With the above in mind, I'd welcome input that proposes topics for either or both of these interactions.
Once we settle on the topics (I have contacted both the board and the CEO in order to collaborate on these) we'll likely need volunteers to develop the topics and potentially lead the discussions.
Therefore, please can you propose one or more topics for either or both sessions (with CEO and Board) as soon as possible.
Thank-you.
Jonathan
-- Wendy Seltzer -- wendy@seltzer.org +1 617.863.0613 Policy Counsel, World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) Fellow, Berkman Center for Internet & Society at Harvard University Visiting Fellow, Yale Law School Information Society Project http://wendy.seltzer.org/ https://www.chillingeffects.org/ https://www.torproject.org/ http://www.freedom-to-tinker.com/
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Thanks Joy, Any comments on the nature or substance of the topics, feel free to contribute. Which I know you will. I'll update the Council on progress with our proposed meeting with the GAC tomorrow. Jonathan -----Original Message----- From: joy [mailto:joy@apc.org] Sent: 26 March 2013 22:01 To: Jonathan Robinson Cc: 'Wendy Seltzer'; 'Neuman, Jeff'; council@gnso.icann.org Subject: Re: [council] Agenda for GNSO Council Meetings in Beijing / Council-Board -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi Jonathan - I think that is a sensible approach and has more of a constructive dialogue flavour, which I think has been lacking. Thanks for your work Joy On 27/03/2013 10:17 a.m., Jonathan Robinson wrote:
All,
My suggested process is as follows:
1. Create an agreed list of topics (which may need to be pared back) 2. Seek volunteers to introduce and open the topic in the discussion in Beijing
In order to prepare, I met with Steve Crocker late last week and talked with him about how we might best interact. I shared with him my sense that our interactions have not always been productive and that we have, at least at times in in some prior interactions, talked past one another. As a consequence, we agreed to experiment with a new approach as follows:
We (the GNSO Council) define topics we wish to discuss with the board. Say 3-5 topics. The board will leave that to us. We pull together a sub-group of Councillors who can introduce these topics effectively and, prior to meeting with the board, discuss them with GNSO board members Bruce Tonkin and Bill Graham. The purpose of working with Bill & Graham is to develop and frame the topics in a way which will be most constructive in our interaction with the board.
So far, we have some topics on the list as follows:
1. Multi-stakeholder model & processes and recent activities that challenge the model. 2. The concept of Public Interest within the ICANN model 3. ICANN engagement & outreach 4. New constituencies
I urge you to come forward and support these, suggest that they are modified or removed and, potentially, offer to lead these.
I feel we are at a pivotal point in time for many reasons. We have an opportunity to take advantage of face-to-face interaction with the Board and engage effectively.
I look forward to further input from you and then engaging Bill & Bruce on this next week. I hope I haven't left out previous suggestions, please remind me if I have.
Thank-you,
Jonathan
-----Original Message----- From: owner-council@gnso.icann.org [mailto:owner-council@gnso.icann.org] On Behalf Of Wendy Seltzer Sent: 20 March 2013 14:58 To: Jonathan Robinson Cc: 'Neuman, Jeff'; council@gnso.icann.org Subject: Re: [council] Agenda for GNSO Council Meetings in Beijing / Council-Board
Thanks Jonathan and Jeff,
For our meeting with the Board, NCSG agrees that multistakholder engagement should be top of the agenda (we noted the issue as Bottom-up multi-stakeholderism versus ICANN unilateralism).
In addition, we'd suggest consideration of Definition of the "public interest" at ICANN; ICANN engagement & outreach plans; and possibly New constituencies.
Best, -Wendy
On 03/19/2013 03:10 PM, Jonathan Robinson wrote:
Thanks Jeff. I agree and think it may even be necessary to go back to first principles on the function and role of the GNSO Council within the GNSO and in the context of the overall multi-stakeholder model.
From: Neuman, Jeff [mailto:Jeff.Neuman@neustar.us] Sent: 19 March 2013 19:01 To: Jonathan Robinson; council@gnso.icann.org Subject: RE: [council] Agenda for GNSO Council Meetings in Beijing
With the Board, I think it is imperative that we talk about our views on the multi-stakeholder process and the recent measures we have seen that we believe erode away at that model.
Jeffrey J. Neuman Neustar, Inc. / Vice President, Business Affairs
From: owner-council@gnso.icann.org [mailto:owner-council@gnso.icann.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan Robinson Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 2:48 PM To: council@gnso.icann.org Subject: [council] Agenda for GNSO Council Meetings in Beijing
All,
We are on track with a team to work with peers in the ccNSO in order to develop the proposed topics for our meeting with the ccNSO.
As far as our prospective meeting with the GAC Is concerned, that is still work in progress, so for now that leaves meeting with the ICANN Board and the CEO.
Typically in the past, these meetings have consisted of our topics / their topics and my sense is that we have, at least at times, talked past one another.
However, it is clearly still very useful to have a view on key areas we like to see covered in our interaction with the CEO and the board and to do the preparatory work on these.
With the above in mind, I'd welcome input that proposes topics for either or both of these interactions.
Once we settle on the topics (I have contacted both the board and the CEO in order to collaborate on these) we'll likely need volunteers to develop the topics and potentially lead the discussions.
Therefore, please can you propose one or more topics for either or both sessions (with CEO and Board) as soon as possible.
Thank-you.
Jonathan
-- Wendy Seltzer -- wendy@seltzer.org +1 617.863.0613 Policy Counsel, World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) Fellow, Berkman Center for Internet & Society at Harvard University Visiting Fellow, Yale Law School Information Society Project http://wendy.seltzer.org/ https://www.chillingeffects.org/ https://www.torproject.org/ http://www.freedom-to-tinker.com/
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I support. Thanks Jonathan. On Mar 26, 2013, at 12:01 PM, joy wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Hi Jonathan - I think that is a sensible approach and has more of a constructive dialogue flavour, which I think has been lacking. Thanks for your work Joy
On 27/03/2013 10:17 a.m., Jonathan Robinson wrote:
All,
My suggested process is as follows:
1. Create an agreed list of topics (which may need to be pared back) 2. Seek volunteers to introduce and open the topic in the discussion in Beijing
In order to prepare, I met with Steve Crocker late last week and talked with him about how we might best interact. I shared with him my sense that our interactions have not always been productive and that we have, at least at times in in some prior interactions, talked past one another. As a consequence, we agreed to experiment with a new approach as follows:
We (the GNSO Council) define topics we wish to discuss with the board. Say 3-5 topics. The board will leave that to us. We pull together a sub-group of Councillors who can introduce these topics effectively and, prior to meeting with the board, discuss them with GNSO board members Bruce Tonkin and Bill Graham. The purpose of working with Bill & Graham is to develop and frame the topics in a way which will be most constructive in our interaction with the board.
So far, we have some topics on the list as follows:
1. Multi-stakeholder model & processes and recent activities that challenge the model. 2. The concept of Public Interest within the ICANN model 3. ICANN engagement & outreach 4. New constituencies
I urge you to come forward and support these, suggest that they are modified or removed and, potentially, offer to lead these.
I feel we are at a pivotal point in time for many reasons. We have an opportunity to take advantage of face-to-face interaction with the Board and engage effectively.
I look forward to further input from you and then engaging Bill & Bruce on this next week. I hope I haven't left out previous suggestions, please remind me if I have.
Thank-you,
Jonathan
-----Original Message----- From: owner-council@gnso.icann.org [mailto:owner-council@gnso.icann.org] On Behalf Of Wendy Seltzer Sent: 20 March 2013 14:58 To: Jonathan Robinson Cc: 'Neuman, Jeff'; council@gnso.icann.org Subject: Re: [council] Agenda for GNSO Council Meetings in Beijing / Council-Board
Thanks Jonathan and Jeff,
For our meeting with the Board, NCSG agrees that multistakholder engagement should be top of the agenda (we noted the issue as Bottom-up multi-stakeholderism versus ICANN unilateralism).
In addition, we'd suggest consideration of Definition of the "public interest" at ICANN; ICANN engagement & outreach plans; and possibly New constituencies.
Best, -Wendy
On 03/19/2013 03:10 PM, Jonathan Robinson wrote:
Thanks Jeff. I agree and think it may even be necessary to go back to first principles on the function and role of the GNSO Council within the GNSO and in the context of the overall multi-stakeholder model.
From: Neuman, Jeff [mailto:Jeff.Neuman@neustar.us] Sent: 19 March 2013 19:01 To: Jonathan Robinson; council@gnso.icann.org Subject: RE: [council] Agenda for GNSO Council Meetings in Beijing
With the Board, I think it is imperative that we talk about our views on the multi-stakeholder process and the recent measures we have seen that we believe erode away at that model.
Jeffrey J. Neuman Neustar, Inc. / Vice President, Business Affairs
From: owner-council@gnso.icann.org [mailto:owner-council@gnso.icann.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan Robinson Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 2:48 PM To: council@gnso.icann.org Subject: [council] Agenda for GNSO Council Meetings in Beijing
All,
We are on track with a team to work with peers in the ccNSO in order to develop the proposed topics for our meeting with the ccNSO.
As far as our prospective meeting with the GAC Is concerned, that is still work in progress, so for now that leaves meeting with the ICANN Board and the CEO.
Typically in the past, these meetings have consisted of our topics / their topics and my sense is that we have, at least at times, talked past one another.
However, it is clearly still very useful to have a view on key areas we like to see covered in our interaction with the CEO and the board and to do the preparatory work on these.
With the above in mind, I'd welcome input that proposes topics for either or both of these interactions.
Once we settle on the topics (I have contacted both the board and the CEO in order to collaborate on these) we'll likely need volunteers to develop the topics and potentially lead the discussions.
Therefore, please can you propose one or more topics for either or both sessions (with CEO and Board) as soon as possible.
Thank-you.
Jonathan
-- Wendy Seltzer -- wendy@seltzer.org +1 617.863.0613 Policy Counsel, World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) Fellow, Berkman Center for Internet & Society at Harvard University Visiting Fellow, Yale Law School Information Society Project http://wendy.seltzer.org/ https://www.chillingeffects.org/ https://www.torproject.org/ http://www.freedom-to-tinker.com/
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participants (5)
-
Jonathan Robinson -
joy -
Mason Cole -
Neuman, Jeff -
Wendy Seltzer