Avri, Not being in the OSC operations WT but having an interest in the topic, I will reply to a few points made in this thread if you will allow just one more incursion in this mailing list... I am however copying the Council list as I see this as a long term issue, and one which the Council will have to address. On the points raised by Liz, as I suggested before I think a kind of test-run could be tried on selected WGs or DTs to start with, as long as the aim is to find a solution to the problem as a whole. More generally, Liz is absolutely right to point out that organising meetings in timezones outside the US will place a burden on ICANN's US-centric staff. That is absolutely something that we must think about, but it's also something that serves to highlight the US-centric problem even more. Because ICANN has limited staff outside of the US, it will find it hard to provide support for those volunteers in the SOs and ACs that are from other timezones. We therefore seem to be hitting against a contradiction in the ICANN model, which on the one hand strives towards maximum regional representation (just look at the diversity of volunteers on the Council and in any other ICANN structure, or look at the work done on geo regions for instance), but on the other hand doesn't have the logistics to back that up. There is no doubt in my mind that if we are to try to make volunteers' life easier when they are outside the "convenient" US or European regions, we will also need to find ways to have those volunteers adequately supported by ICANN staff. An interested discussion, and one which we obviously need to give a lot more thought to before we are able to suggest workable solutions. Thanks, Stéphane Le 19/08/09 21:45, « Avri Doria » <avri@psg.com> a écrit :

Hi,

I see two issues here.

One a short term problem in terms of the Restructuring DT meeting - which I am still not convinced we need, but willing to follow the lead of others on. On this I am still wondering if there isn't some time that works for all that does not fall into the 12-5 am time zone for anyone.

And second is the general problem. In terms of the general problem I suggest we throw it into the appropriate Work Team for discussion (WG WT or OSC Operations WT) and not use the meeting notification mailing list to try and work it out adhoc.

thanks

a.

On 19 Aug 2009, at 15:29, Liz Gasster wrote:

...

All,

I¹m short on ³solutions² so far, but I do have four questions about how the idea endorsed by Kristina and Stéphane would work:

1. Would it apply to all working groups ­ the Council proposes to have essentially double calls for all working groups? Many working groups have little Asia-Pacific representation today (though it is possible that Asia-Pacific participation might increase if we schedule calls at more convenient times for those participants). 2. I gather that staff would be expected to produce notes and/ or a recording following the ³first² call in time for participants to prepare by reading those notes or listening to the recording of the first call prior to the second call on the same or next day. Is this a correct understanding? 3. Currently the Policy group has no staff in the Asia Pacific region. Staff are assigned to working groups by issue so that we can develop expertise and an understanding of the substance of each working group. Kristina suggested that the same staff person be cover both calls (for particular regions) on a particular topic, I assume to preserve this continuity. I am not sure how staff could manage the hours implied in that suggestion without sharing responsibilities for working groups or working excessive hours on a regular basis. I may be missing the thought about how this arrangement would work. 4. Would working groups ever meet as a whole? I am concerned that it will be even more difficult to coordinate writing tasks and consensus-building when calls are conducted serially, and that as a practical matter staff would assume a go-between role in coordinating documents and work deliverables with two sets of individuals who would only communicate with each other ³on list². Would two sets of action items be maintained? Would documents that staff agreed to update, revise or change on one call need to be complete for review by the second group? How would disagreements and decisions be addressed? Should working group processes be developed to cover such a working environment (like for example by the Working Groups Work Team of the PPSC)?

We would very much like to accommodate a workable arrangement, just thinking through the logistics.

Thanks! Liz

From: owner-ntfy-gnso-restruc-dt@icann.org [mailto:owner-ntfy-gnso-restruc-dt@icann.org ] On Behalf Of Neuman, Jeff Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 10:17 AM To: cgomes@verisign.com; krosette@cov.com; stephane.vangelder@indom.com ; adrian@ausregistry.com.au; Gisella Gruber-White; ntfy-gnso-restruc-dt@icann.org Cc: gnso.secretariat@icann.org Subject: Re: DOODLE / GNSO Council Restructuring drafting team / next call

Rotating times with the schedule set at least a month or two in advance. That is the only way in which everyone will have notice and everyone will have the same amount of "pain". That combined with more work being done on the lists. Jeffrey J. Neuman, Esq. Vice President, Law & Policy NeuStar, Inc. Jeff.Neuman@neustar.biz

From: Gomes, Chuck To: Neuman, Jeff; krosette@cov.com ; stephane.vangelder@indom.com ; adrian@ausregistry.com.au ; Gisella.Gruber-White@icann.org ; ntfy-gnso-restruc-dt@icann.org Cc: gnso.secretariat@icann.org Sent: Wed Aug 19 11:47:41 2009 Subject: RE: DOODLE / GNSO Council Restructuring drafting team / next call Disagreement is good Jeff but it would be helpful if you provided an alternative to deal with the scheduling problem.

Chuck

From: Neuman, Jeff [mailto:Jeff.Neuman@neustar.us] Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 11:22 AM To: krosette@cov.com; stephane.vangelder@indom.com; Gomes, Chuck; adrian@ausregistry.com.au ; Gisella.Gruber-White@icann.org; ntfy-gnso-restruc-dt@icann.org Cc: gnso.secretariat@icann.org Subject: Re: DOODLE / GNSO Council Restructuring drafting team / next call

I actually do not support this proposal. The election of chairs and vice chairs needs to be skills based, not geographical. recommending this approach is ok, requiring it will create more problems than it will solve. Its tough enough to get volunteers for chair positions, but adding a geography requirement seems impossible to implement.

That's just my opinion. Jeffrey J. Neuman, Esq. Vice President, Law & Policy NeuStar, Inc. Jeff.Neuman@neustar.biz

From: owner-ntfy-gnso-restruc-dt@icann.org To: Stéphane Van Gelder ; Gomes, Chuck ; Adrian Kinderis ; Gisella Gruber-White ; ntfy-gnso-restruc-dt@icann.org Cc: GNSO Secretariat Sent: Wed Aug 19 11:10:51 2009 Subject: RE: DOODLE / GNSO Council Restructuring drafting team / next call Sounds like a plan to me. (Only suggestion would be to make clear that one vice-chair could be from Africa/Asia/Australia/Pacific and the other from North America/Latin America/Caribbean/Europe.)

From: Stéphane Van Gelder [mailto:stephane.vangelder@indom.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 10:26 AM To: Rosette, Kristina; Gomes, Chuck; Adrian Kinderis; Gisella Gruber- White; ntfy-gnso-restruc-dt@icann.org Cc: GNSO Secretariat Subject: Re: DOODLE / GNSO Council Restructuring drafting team / next call

Indeed, a very good idea Kristina.

How about 2 vice-chairs and no chairs as SOP for all WGs and DTs? One vice-chair from Europe or USA. One from Asia Pac or other region in same timezone. Staff responsible for supplying vice-chairs with the summaries and briefs they need to coordinate the group¹s work (ie notes from the other timezone meeting). Meetings could then be held on the same day, but at different times according to the relevant timezones. That way, the actual group¹s work does not get delayed by the dual meeting system.

I would also suggest this method initially NOT be used for the full Council meetings. I do not see how attendance at these meetings can be split while still retaining a functioning Council. This method could be evaluated on WGs and DTs and then, after a period, applied elsewhere if it proves effective.

Thanks,

Stéphane

Le 19/08/09 16:14, « Rosette, Kristina » <krosette@cov.com> a écrit :

That's what I was thinking. Will probably require increased staff support to maximize efficiency and decrease amount of chair coordination time.

From: Gomes, Chuck [mailto:cgomes@verisign.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 10:12 AM To: Rosette, Kristina; Stéphane Van Gelder; Adrian Kinderis; Gisella Gruber-White; ntfy-gnso-restruc-dt@icann.org Cc: GNSO Secretariat Subject: RE: DOODLE / GNSO Council Restructuring drafting team / next call

Interesting idea Kristina. It would then be easier for the two co- chairs to find a time to talk to one another and coordinate their schedules than it would be for the whole group.

Chuck

From: Rosette, Kristina [mailto:krosette@cov.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 10:07 AM To: Gomes, Chuck; Stéphane Van Gelder; Adrian Kinderis; Gisella Gruber-White; ntfy-gnso-restruc-dt@icann.org Cc: GNSO Secretariat Subject: RE: DOODLE / GNSO Council Restructuring drafting team / next call

Why not have either two chairs or a chair and vice-chair for each WG/DT, require that one be from USA/Europe and the other from Asia Pacific, have each be responsible for respective meetings and coordinate, with significant staff support (one person who would be responsible for attending all)?

From: owner-ntfy-gnso-restruc-dt@icann.org [mailto:owner-ntfy-gnso-restruc-dt@icann.org ] On Behalf Of Gomes, Chuck Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 9:46 AM To: Stéphane Van Gelder; Adrian Kinderis; Gisella Gruber-White; ntfy-gnso-restruc-dt@icann.org Cc: GNSO Secretariat Subject: RE: DOODLE / GNSO Council Restructuring drafting team / next call

Thanks for the feedback Stephane. Let's keep brainstorming. We really do need to find something or some things that work.

Chuck

From: Stéphane Van Gelder [mailto:stephane.vangelder@indom.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 8:21 AM To: Gomes, Chuck; Adrian Kinderis; Gisella Gruber-White; ntfy-gnso-restruc-dt@icann.org Cc: GNSO Secretariat Subject: Re: DOODLE / GNSO Council Restructuring drafting team / next call

I agree that multiple options need to be explored and that the current status quo is detrimental to a GNSO Council that functions well.

I am not sure that scheduling two meetings to cover the same subject matter is a good idea however. As you point out, this would mean that some people would have to cover both meetings and I suspect we would end up with the same people doing all the work once again, which would place an unfair burden on them. I think this idea can only work if both meetings are attended by, and run by, two completely different sets of people (eg. one set from the USA/Europe regions and the other from Asia Pac). This however then may cause organisational problems as the work done in both meetings would need to be homogenised and streamlined.

Stéphane

Le 18/08/09 13:49, « Gomes, Chuck » <cgomes@verisign.com> a écrit :

We haven't made much progress at all in solving this problem and I believe it is reasonable to expect that it will get worse not better going forward. So it seems to me that we need to come up with some new approaches that we haven't considered yet.

If we eliminate all times between 11 pm and 6 am for all participants in a given meeting and if their are participants from every geographic region, I don't think any time would work. So it is no wonder that simply doing Doodles doesn't work.

We have tried rotating times of meetings so that different participants are negatively impacted at least every other meeting. This seems fairer to all but makes scheduling more difficult. It still may be one of the steps we can take quickly to at least spread the pain around, especially for the most important meetings such as Council calls as Philip suggested, .

It would be nice if there was an ideal solution, but I don't believe there is one, so I think we need to explore multiple options.

One root cause of the problem we are trying to solve is that we have not yet developed the discipline to work productively using electronic means instead of live meetings. So I think we need to focus more attention on exploring ways that we could increase efficiencies using electronic means to work on policy. We have experimented with some tools and they have helped a little but they haven't really decreased our dependence on live meetings. This topic fits well in the GNSO Council Operations Work Team charter but it may be awhile before they can focus on it so It might be a good idea to form a small group to focus on this sooner. Such a group could explore tools and methodologies used by others and develop some concrete recommendations. I am sure that ICANN Policy Staff could be of great assistance on this.

In the near term though, I suspect that we will continue to need live meetings. We also want to be totally open and have as diverse participation as possible but that exasperates the scheduling challenge for live meetings. How can we expand diversity of participation while minimizing scheduling difficulties? Larger groups tend to cause more scheduling difficulties. Could we organize large groups into smaller groups that meet separately and intentionally structure the small groups so that the various time zones represented are more homogeneous? To accomplish this we probably would need to consciously consider time zone practicality when forming the small groups. If we were successful, the small groups could then more readily develop policy approaches for consideration by the larger group electronically. I think this goes along with Philip's suggestion of division of responsibilities. An approach along this line seems to fit into the mission of the Working Group Model team but maybe we could develop some of the concepts before they are able to get to it.

One thing that is not acceptable is to continue the way we have been. We have been trying for weeks to schedule a meeting for the Restructing Drafting Team meeting without success and it is critical that that team meet quickly to resolve several remaining issues. To solve this immediate problem, I suggest we hold two meetings at different times that cover the same agenda. That would require a few of us to participate in both meetings but I think we could keep that to a minimum. It also would require that the a summary of key points and issues of the first meeting be prepared quickly and distributed in advance of the second meeting. After both meetings, it might be possible to finish most of our work online.

Chuck

From: owner-ntfy-gnso-restruc-dt@icann.org [mailto:owner-ntfy-gnso-restruc-dt@icann.org ] On Behalf Of Adrian Kinderis Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 9:19 PM To: Gisella Gruber-White; ntfy-gnso-restruc-dt@icann.org Cc: GNSO Secretariat Subject: RE: DOODLE / GNSO Council Restructuring drafting team / next call

I have completed the Doodle (but I am not sure why I bother).

For the record, whilst I am of course interested in participating (and it is my duty as a Councillor) I will continually reject meeting times that impact my ability to perform my work at 100% (i.e. I will not participate in any calls between 11pm and 6am local time).

Adrian Kinderis Chief Executive Officer

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From: owner-ntfy-gnso-restruc-dt@icann.org [mailto:owner-ntfy-gnso-restruc-dt@icann.org ] On Behalf Of Gisella Gruber-White Sent: Tuesday, 18 August 2009 9:56 AM To: ntfy-gnso-restruc-dt@icann.org Cc: GNSO Secretariat; Gisella Gruber-White Subject: DOODLE / GNSO Council Restructuring drafting team / next call

Dear All,

In order to schedule the next GNSO Council Restructuring drafting team, please complete the attached Doodle poll.

http://www.doodle.com/2c8xaadq6v8wpbx3

We will confirm the date and time once everyone has completed this.

The poll will close on Wednesday at 1200 UTC.

Thank you Kind regards Gisella

---------------------------- Gisella Gruber-White On behalf of GNSO Secretariat Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICANN)

Email: gisella.gruber-white@icann.org Tel: +44 7545 334 360 Skype ID: gisella.gw