Fwd: RE: [council] Response to ccNSO/GAC Issues report
I also agree with Avri's suggestion, where others already consented. At the table I was - and I later talking to people from another table - there was opposition to the "One IDNccTLD per one script per one language group": "their government should decide to choose just one." I was surprised about the lack of sensitivity on the political/social/cultural implications. I argued - as a example - saying that it would be highly destructive in the presently tense situation, if the Malaysian government would give preference to the Chinese over against the Indian ethnic sections of the society by allocating only one IDNccTLD, but this was dismissed as "not ICANN's problem." Norbert - ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: RE: [council] Response to ccNSO/GAC Issues report Date: Monday, 11 February 2008 From: "Edmon Chung" <edmon@dotasia.org> To: "'Council GNSO'" <council@gnso.icann.org> Agreed. Edmon
-----Original Message----- From: owner-council@gnso.icann.org [mailto:owner-council@gnso.icann.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Kinderis Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 10:11 AM To: Avri Doria; Council GNSO Subject: RE: [council] Response to ccNSO/GAC Issues report
The same issue was raised at our table Avri.
I believe your suggested change would be appropriate.
Regards,
Adrian Kinderis
-- If you want to know what is going on in Cambodia, please visit us regularly - you can find something new every day: http://cambodiamirror.wordpress.com Agreed. Edmon
-----Original Message----- From: owner-council@gnso.icann.org [mailto:owner-council@gnso.icann.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Kinderis Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 10:11 AM To: Avri Doria; Council GNSO Subject: RE: [council] Response to ccNSO/GAC Issues report
The same issue was raised at our table Avri.
I believe your suggested change would be appropriate.
Regards,
Adrian Kinderis Managing Director AusRegistry Group Pty Ltd Level 8, 10 Queens Road Melbourne. Victoria Australia. 3004 Ph: +61 3 9866 3710 Fax: +61 3 9866 1970 Email: adrian@ausregistry.com Web: www.ausregistrygroup.com
The information contained in this communication is intended for the named recipients only. It is subject to copyright and may contain legally privileged and confidential information and if you are not an intended recipient you must not use, copy, distribute or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this communication in error, please delete all copies from your system and notify us immediately.
-----Original Message----- From: owner-council@gnso.icann.org [mailto:owner-council@gnso.icann.org] On Behalf Of Avri Doria Sent: Monday, 11 February 2008 12:59 PM To: Council GNSO Subject: [council] Response to ccNSO/GAC Issues report
Hi,
At my table this evening, we had a conversation about Executive summary point #5 - specifically the last phrase "... without GNSO's concurrence"
While explaning it this, I explained that it really refered to the need to have have resolved the issue as explained in #2 and the ICANn community had achieved a common agreement of an interim procedure.
I am wondering whether we might be to change it to say: " without prior community concurrence"
thanks
a.
The same issue was raised at my table by the board members. The feeling was "if two countries are going to start a war over a domain name, that is their problem. They must pick 1 name." I think there is merit to this view. It was also mentioned that Chinese is a script that is used by a large community in just about EVERY country in the world, so does this mean every country gets a script in Chinese? In the US alone, there are large language communities for probably 10 scripts, giving the US 10 scripts under our rule. I do not believe this is what we intended. And a few other points were raised that need to be dealt with. In particular, the recommendation that "strings must not be confusingly similar" is misplaced. Only technical confusion is the type that should be dealt with here, not general confusion. I agree. This recommendation really does not make sense from a trademark viewpoint (although that is how it is intended), since a domain name, by itself, does not cause confusion, but only with relation to how the domain is used. We are going well beyond technical stability and trying to regulate other things that are outside ICANN's authority. Perhaps we should give more thought to our recommendations before we vote on them. I found the feedback from the board to be enormously useful and we should try to address their concerns before voting. Thanks, Robin On Feb 10, 2008, at 7:39 PM, Norbert Klein wrote:
I also agree with Avri's suggestion, where others already consented.
At the table I was - and I later talking to people from another table - there was opposition to the "One IDNccTLD per one script per one language group": "their government should decide to choose just one."
I was surprised about the lack of sensitivity on the political/ social/cultural implications. I argued - as a example - saying that it would be highly destructive in the presently tense situation, if the Malaysian government would give preference to the Chinese over against the Indian ethnic sections of the society by allocating only one IDNccTLD, but this was dismissed as "not ICANN's problem."
Norbert
-
---------- Forwarded Message ----------
Subject: RE: [council] Response to ccNSO/GAC Issues report Date: Monday, 11 February 2008 From: "Edmon Chung" <edmon@dotasia.org> To: "'Council GNSO'" <council@gnso.icann.org>
Agreed. Edmon
-----Original Message----- From: owner-council@gnso.icann.org [mailto:owner- council@gnso.icann.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Kinderis Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 10:11 AM To: Avri Doria; Council GNSO Subject: RE: [council] Response to ccNSO/GAC Issues report
The same issue was raised at our table Avri.
I believe your suggested change would be appropriate.
Regards,
Adrian Kinderis
-- If you want to know what is going on in Cambodia, please visit us regularly - you can find something new every day:
http://cambodiamirror.wordpress.com
Agreed. Edmon
-----Original Message----- From: owner-council@gnso.icann.org [mailto:owner- council@gnso.icann.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Kinderis Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 10:11 AM To: Avri Doria; Council GNSO Subject: RE: [council] Response to ccNSO/GAC Issues report
The same issue was raised at our table Avri.
I believe your suggested change would be appropriate.
Regards,
Adrian Kinderis Managing Director AusRegistry Group Pty Ltd Level 8, 10 Queens Road Melbourne. Victoria Australia. 3004 Ph: +61 3 9866 3710 Fax: +61 3 9866 1970 Email: adrian@ausregistry.com Web: www.ausregistrygroup.com
The information contained in this communication is intended for the named recipients only. It is subject to copyright and may contain legally privileged and confidential information and if you are not an intended recipient you must not use, copy, distribute or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this communication in error, please delete all copies from your system and notify us immediately.
-----Original Message----- From: owner-council@gnso.icann.org [mailto:owner- council@gnso.icann.org] On Behalf Of Avri Doria Sent: Monday, 11 February 2008 12:59 PM To: Council GNSO Subject: [council] Response to ccNSO/GAC Issues report
Hi,
At my table this evening, we had a conversation about Executive summary point #5 - specifically the last phrase "... without GNSO's concurrence"
While explaning it this, I explained that it really refered to the need to have have resolved the issue as explained in #2 and the ICANn community had achieved a common agreement of an interim procedure.
I am wondering whether we might be to change it to say: " without prior community concurrence"
thanks
a.
IP JUSTICE Robin Gross, Executive Director 1192 Haight Street, San Francisco, CA 94117 USA p: +1-415-553-6261 f: +1-415-462-6451 w: http://www.ipjustice.org e: robin@ipjustice.org
Recommendation 2 (confusingly similar) does not necessarily relate to trademarks although that could be a subset. The detailed discussion we included for this was taken from international law relating to trademarks but the intent was to apply the requirement on broader basis, in particularly for existing gTLDs that do not have any trade mark rights. Chuck ________________________________ From: owner-council@gnso.icann.org [mailto:owner-council@gnso.icann.org] On Behalf Of Robin Gross Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 12:50 AM To: Council GNSO Subject: Re: [council] Response to ccNSO/GAC Issues report The same issue was raised at my table by the board members. The feeling was "if two countries are going to start a war over a domain name, that is their problem. They must pick 1 name." I think there is merit to this view. It was also mentioned that Chinese is a script that is used by a large community in just about EVERY country in the world, so does this mean every country gets a script in Chinese? In the US alone, there are large language communities for probably 10 scripts, giving the US 10 scripts under our rule. I do not believe this is what we intended. And a few other points were raised that need to be dealt with. In particular, the recommendation that "strings must not be confusingly similar" is misplaced. Only technical confusion is the type that should be dealt with here, not general confusion. I agree. This recommendation really does not make sense from a trademark viewpoint (although that is how it is intended), since a domain name, by itself, does not cause confusion, but only with relation to how the domain is used. We are going well beyond technical stability and trying to regulate other things that are outside ICANN's authority. Perhaps we should give more thought to our recommendations before we vote on them. I found the feedback from the board to be enormously useful and we should try to address their concerns before voting. Thanks, Robin On Feb 10, 2008, at 7:39 PM, Norbert Klein wrote: I also agree with Avri's suggestion, where others already consented. At the table I was - and I later talking to people from another table - there was opposition to the "One IDNccTLD per one script per one language group": "their government should decide to choose just one." I was surprised about the lack of sensitivity on the political/social/cultural implications. I argued - as a example - saying that it would be highly destructive in the presently tense situation, if the Malaysian government would give preference to the Chinese over against the Indian ethnic sections of the society by allocating only one IDNccTLD, but this was dismissed as "not ICANN's problem." Norbert - ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: RE: [council] Response to ccNSO/GAC Issues report Date: Monday, 11 February 2008 From: "Edmon Chung" <edmon@dotasia.org> To: "'Council GNSO'" <council@gnso.icann.org> Agreed. Edmon -----Original Message----- From: owner-council@gnso.icann.org [mailto:owner-council@gnso.icann.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Kinderis Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 10:11 AM To: Avri Doria; Council GNSO Subject: RE: [council] Response to ccNSO/GAC Issues report The same issue was raised at our table Avri. I believe your suggested change would be appropriate. Regards, Adrian Kinderis -- If you want to know what is going on in Cambodia, please visit us regularly - you can find something new every day: http://cambodiamirror.wordpress.com Agreed. Edmon -----Original Message----- From: owner-council@gnso.icann.org [mailto:owner-council@gnso.icann.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Kinderis Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 10:11 AM To: Avri Doria; Council GNSO Subject: RE: [council] Response to ccNSO/GAC Issues report The same issue was raised at our table Avri. I believe your suggested change would be appropriate. Regards, Adrian Kinderis Managing Director AusRegistry Group Pty Ltd Level 8, 10 Queens Road Melbourne. Victoria Australia. 3004 Ph: +61 3 9866 3710 Fax: +61 3 9866 1970 Email: adrian@ausregistry.com Web: www.ausregistrygroup.com The information contained in this communication is intended for the named recipients only. It is subject to copyright and may contain legally privileged and confidential information and if you are not an intended recipient you must not use, copy, distribute or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this communication in error, please delete all copies from your system and notify us immediately. -----Original Message----- From: owner-council@gnso.icann.org [mailto:owner-council@gnso.icann.org] On Behalf Of Avri Doria Sent: Monday, 11 February 2008 12:59 PM To: Council GNSO Subject: [council] Response to ccNSO/GAC Issues report Hi, At my table this evening, we had a conversation about Executive summary point #5 - specifically the last phrase "... without GNSO's concurrence" While explaning it this, I explained that it really refered to the need to have have resolved the issue as explained in #2 and the ICANn community had achieved a common agreement of an interim procedure. I am wondering whether we might be to change it to say: " without prior community concurrence" thanks a. IP JUSTICE Robin Gross, Executive Director 1192 Haight Street, San Francisco, CA 94117 USA p: +1-415-553-6261 f: +1-415-462-6451 w: http://www.ipjustice.org e: robin@ipjustice.org
Chuck, I agree with you that trademarks are only a subset of "confusingly similar". The point is that trademarks are outside of the realm of technical confusion, and only technical confusion should be included within the "confusingly similar" issue since that is all that is within ICANN's scope of authority. I disagree that international law says that domain names, without any analysis of their use, can be considered confusingly similar. Please remember the presentation that Professor Christine Haight Farley, American University international trademark law expert, gave to us in San Juan, where she attempted to explain this key point in detail. Her paper is online at: http://ipjustice.org/wp/2007/06/06/farley- legal-briefing/ and the video of her presentation is at: http://www.keep-the-core- neutral.org/node/31 It is a mistake for us to continue to expand trademark rights in domain names beyond the scope of rights that trademark law grants. So I can't support a GNSO position that does this. Another suggestion that was provided at our dinner table last night was that a better way to deal with confusion caused by similar script characters (such as the "paypal example") is by the creation of new FONTS that make the characters more distinct and thus eliminate this type of confusion through a software fix (rather than by expanding trademark rights). I agree that we should explore this approach. Thanks, Robin On Feb 11, 2008, at 4:00 AM, Gomes, Chuck wrote:
Recommendation 2 (confusingly similar) does not necessarily relate to trademarks although that could be a subset. The detailed discussion we included for this was taken from international law relating to trademarks but the intent was to apply the requirement on broader basis, in particularly for existing gTLDs that do not have any trade mark rights.
Chuck
From: owner-council@gnso.icann.org [mailto:owner- council@gnso.icann.org] On Behalf Of Robin Gross Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 12:50 AM To: Council GNSO Subject: Re: [council] Response to ccNSO/GAC Issues report
The same issue was raised at my table by the board members. The feeling was "if two countries are going to start a war over a domain name, that is their problem. They must pick 1 name." I think there is merit to this view. It was also mentioned that Chinese is a script that is used by a large community in just about EVERY country in the world, so does this mean every country gets a script in Chinese? In the US alone, there are large language communities for probably 10 scripts, giving the US 10 scripts under our rule. I do not believe this is what we intended.
And a few other points were raised that need to be dealt with. In particular, the recommendation that "strings must not be confusingly similar" is misplaced. Only technical confusion is the type that should be dealt with here, not general confusion. I agree. This recommendation really does not make sense from a trademark viewpoint (although that is how it is intended), since a domain name, by itself, does not cause confusion, but only with relation to how the domain is used. We are going well beyond technical stability and trying to regulate other things that are outside ICANN's authority.
Perhaps we should give more thought to our recommendations before we vote on them. I found the feedback from the board to be enormously useful and we should try to address their concerns before voting.
Thanks, Robin
On Feb 10, 2008, at 7:39 PM, Norbert Klein wrote:
I also agree with Avri's suggestion, where others already consented.
At the table I was - and I later talking to people from another table - there was opposition to the "One IDNccTLD per one script per one language group": "their government should decide to choose just one."
I was surprised about the lack of sensitivity on the political/ social/cultural implications. I argued - as a example - saying that it would be highly destructive in the presently tense situation, if the Malaysian government would give preference to the Chinese over against the Indian ethnic sections of the society by allocating only one IDNccTLD, but this was dismissed as "not ICANN's problem."
Norbert
-
---------- Forwarded Message ----------
Subject: RE: [council] Response to ccNSO/GAC Issues report Date: Monday, 11 February 2008 From: "Edmon Chung" <edmon@dotasia.org> To: "'Council GNSO'" <council@gnso.icann.org>
Agreed. Edmon
-----Original Message----- From: owner-council@gnso.icann.org [mailto:owner- council@gnso.icann.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Kinderis Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 10:11 AM To: Avri Doria; Council GNSO Subject: RE: [council] Response to ccNSO/GAC Issues report
The same issue was raised at our table Avri.
I believe your suggested change would be appropriate.
Regards,
Adrian Kinderis
-- If you want to know what is going on in Cambodia, please visit us regularly - you can find something new every day:
http://cambodiamirror.wordpress.com
Agreed. Edmon
-----Original Message----- From: owner-council@gnso.icann.org [mailto:owner- council@gnso.icann.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Kinderis Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 10:11 AM To: Avri Doria; Council GNSO Subject: RE: [council] Response to ccNSO/GAC Issues report
The same issue was raised at our table Avri.
I believe your suggested change would be appropriate.
Regards,
Adrian Kinderis Managing Director AusRegistry Group Pty Ltd Level 8, 10 Queens Road Melbourne. Victoria Australia. 3004 Ph: +61 3 9866 3710 Fax: +61 3 9866 1970 Email: adrian@ausregistry.com Web: www.ausregistrygroup.com
The information contained in this communication is intended for the named recipients only. It is subject to copyright and may contain legally privileged and confidential information and if you are not an intended recipient you must not use, copy, distribute or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this communication in error, please delete all copies from your system and notify us immediately.
-----Original Message----- From: owner-council@gnso.icann.org [mailto:owner- council@gnso.icann.org] On Behalf Of Avri Doria Sent: Monday, 11 February 2008 12:59 PM To: Council GNSO Subject: [council] Response to ccNSO/GAC Issues report
Hi,
At my table this evening, we had a conversation about Executive summary point #5 - specifically the last phrase "... without GNSO's concurrence"
While explaning it this, I explained that it really refered to the need to have have resolved the issue as explained in #2 and the ICANn community had achieved a common agreement of an interim procedure.
I am wondering whether we might be to change it to say: " without prior community concurrence"
thanks
a.
IP JUSTICE Robin Gross, Executive Director 1192 Haight Street, San Francisco, CA 94117 USA p: +1-415-553-6261 f: +1-415-462-6451 w: http://www.ipjustice.org e: robin@ipjustice.org
IP JUSTICE Robin Gross, Executive Director 1192 Haight Street, San Francisco, CA 94117 USA p: +1-415-553-6261 f: +1-415-462-6451 w: http://www.ipjustice.org e: robin@ipjustice.org
I see that my statement below has a typo that should be corrected on the issue of the number of scripts per country. I did not mean "if two countries are going to start a war over a domain name, ..." I meant, if two COMMUNITIES within a country are going to start a war over a domain name..." Further on this point, I don't think we should succumb to the threat, "if you don't give us what we want, we will kill each other". That does not strike me as the kind of principled argument we should bow to. Robin On Feb 10, 2008, at 9:49 PM, Robin Gross wrote:
The same issue was raised at my table by the board members. The feeling was "if two countries are going to start a war over a domain name, that is their problem. They must pick 1 name." I think there is merit to this view. It was also mentioned that Chinese is a script that is used by a large community in just about EVERY country in the world, so does this mean every country gets a script in Chinese? In the US alone, there are large language communities for probably 10 scripts, giving the US 10 scripts under our rule. I do not believe this is what we intended.
And a few other points were raised that need to be dealt with. In particular, the recommendation that "strings must not be confusingly similar" is misplaced. Only technical confusion is the type that should be dealt with here, not general confusion. I agree. This recommendation really does not make sense from a trademark viewpoint (although that is how it is intended), since a domain name, by itself, does not cause confusion, but only with relation to how the domain is used. We are going well beyond technical stability and trying to regulate other things that are outside ICANN's authority.
Perhaps we should give more thought to our recommendations before we vote on them. I found the feedback from the board to be enormously useful and we should try to address their concerns before voting.
Thanks, Robin
On Feb 10, 2008, at 7:39 PM, Norbert Klein wrote:
I also agree with Avri's suggestion, where others already consented.
At the table I was - and I later talking to people from another table - there was opposition to the "One IDNccTLD per one script per one language group": "their government should decide to choose just one."
I was surprised about the lack of sensitivity on the political/ social/cultural implications. I argued - as a example - saying that it would be highly destructive in the presently tense situation, if the Malaysian government would give preference to the Chinese over against the Indian ethnic sections of the society by allocating only one IDNccTLD, but this was dismissed as "not ICANN's problem."
Norbert
-
---------- Forwarded Message ----------
Subject: RE: [council] Response to ccNSO/GAC Issues report Date: Monday, 11 February 2008 From: "Edmon Chung" <edmon@dotasia.org> To: "'Council GNSO'" <council@gnso.icann.org>
Agreed. Edmon
-----Original Message----- From: owner-council@gnso.icann.org [mailto:owner- council@gnso.icann.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Kinderis Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 10:11 AM To: Avri Doria; Council GNSO Subject: RE: [council] Response to ccNSO/GAC Issues report
The same issue was raised at our table Avri.
I believe your suggested change would be appropriate.
Regards,
Adrian Kinderis
-- If you want to know what is going on in Cambodia, please visit us regularly - you can find something new every day:
http://cambodiamirror.wordpress.com
Agreed. Edmon
-----Original Message----- From: owner-council@gnso.icann.org [mailto:owner- council@gnso.icann.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Kinderis Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 10:11 AM To: Avri Doria; Council GNSO Subject: RE: [council] Response to ccNSO/GAC Issues report
The same issue was raised at our table Avri.
I believe your suggested change would be appropriate.
Regards,
Adrian Kinderis Managing Director AusRegistry Group Pty Ltd Level 8, 10 Queens Road Melbourne. Victoria Australia. 3004 Ph: +61 3 9866 3710 Fax: +61 3 9866 1970 Email: adrian@ausregistry.com Web: www.ausregistrygroup.com
The information contained in this communication is intended for the named recipients only. It is subject to copyright and may contain legally privileged and confidential information and if you are not an intended recipient you must not use, copy, distribute or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this communication in error, please delete all copies from your system and notify us immediately.
-----Original Message----- From: owner-council@gnso.icann.org [mailto:owner- council@gnso.icann.org] On Behalf Of Avri Doria Sent: Monday, 11 February 2008 12:59 PM To: Council GNSO Subject: [council] Response to ccNSO/GAC Issues report
Hi,
At my table this evening, we had a conversation about Executive summary point #5 - specifically the last phrase "... without GNSO's concurrence"
While explaning it this, I explained that it really refered to the need to have have resolved the issue as explained in #2 and the ICANn community had achieved a common agreement of an interim procedure.
I am wondering whether we might be to change it to say: " without prior community concurrence"
thanks
a.
IP JUSTICE Robin Gross, Executive Director 1192 Haight Street, San Francisco, CA 94117 USA p: +1-415-553-6261 f: +1-415-462-6451 w: http://www.ipjustice.org e: robin@ipjustice.org
IP JUSTICE Robin Gross, Executive Director 1192 Haight Street, San Francisco, CA 94117 USA p: +1-415-553-6261 f: +1-415-462-6451 w: http://www.ipjustice.org e: robin@ipjustice.org
I would be fine with concept of an IDN ccTLD for any string that is a 'meaningful representation of a country name.' I understand there is work to define that and to provide a challenge procedure, but think that should not be very difficult. The toughest part I envision is to ensure that words that are languages can be gTLDs, i.e. .hebrew or .korean in those scripts; even though .israel or .korea in those scripts would be proper ccTLDs. If ccNSO and GAC commit that they will not request any additional strings beyond representations of country names, then we should not stand in the way of those. In answer to Robin's question whether any/every country should get an IDN ccTLD in Chinese, I think that would be fine, just as they all have one in ASCII. Thanks, Mike From: owner-council@gnso.icann.org [mailto:owner-council@gnso.icann.org] On Behalf Of Robin Gross Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 4:13 AM To: Council GNSO Subject: Re: [council] Response to ccNSO/GAC Issues report I see that my statement below has a typo that should be corrected on the issue of the number of scripts per country. I did not mean "if two countries are going to start a war over a domain name, ..." I meant, if two COMMUNITIES within a country are going to start a war over a domain name..." Further on this point, I don't think we should succumb to the threat, "if you don't give us what we want, we will kill each other". That does not strike me as the kind of principled argument we should bow to. Robin On Feb 10, 2008, at 9:49 PM, Robin Gross wrote: The same issue was raised at my table by the board members. The feeling was "if two countries are going to start a war over a domain name, that is their problem. They must pick 1 name." I think there is merit to this view. It was also mentioned that Chinese is a script that is used by a large community in just about EVERY country in the world, so does this mean every country gets a script in Chinese? In the US alone, there are large language communities for probably 10 scripts, giving the US 10 scripts under our rule. I do not believe this is what we intended. And a few other points were raised that need to be dealt with. In particular, the recommendation that "strings must not be confusingly similar" is misplaced. Only technical confusion is the type that should be dealt with here, not general confusion. I agree. This recommendation really does not make sense from a trademark viewpoint (although that is how it is intended), since a domain name, by itself, does not cause confusion, but only with relation to how the domain is used. We are going well beyond technical stability and trying to regulate other things that are outside ICANN's authority. Perhaps we should give more thought to our recommendations before we vote on them. I found the feedback from the board to be enormously useful and we should try to address their concerns before voting. Thanks, Robin On Feb 10, 2008, at 7:39 PM, Norbert Klein wrote: I also agree with Avri's suggestion, where others already consented. At the table I was - and I later talking to people from another table - there was opposition to the "One IDNccTLD per one script per one language group": "their government should decide to choose just one." I was surprised about the lack of sensitivity on the political/social/cultural implications. I argued - as a example - saying that it would be highly destructive in the presently tense situation, if the Malaysian government would give preference to the Chinese over against the Indian ethnic sections of the society by allocating only one IDNccTLD, but this was dismissed as "not ICANN's problem." Norbert - ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: RE: [council] Response to ccNSO/GAC Issues report Date: Monday, 11 February 2008 From: "Edmon Chung" <edmon@dotasia.org> To: "'Council GNSO'" <council@gnso.icann.org> Agreed. Edmon -----Original Message----- From: owner-council@gnso.icann.org [mailto:owner-council@gnso.icann.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Kinderis Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 10:11 AM To: Avri Doria; Council GNSO Subject: RE: [council] Response to ccNSO/GAC Issues report The same issue was raised at our table Avri. I believe your suggested change would be appropriate. Regards, Adrian Kinderis -- If you want to know what is going on in Cambodia, please visit us regularly - you can find something new every day: http://cambodiamirror.wordpress.com Agreed. Edmon -----Original Message----- From: owner-council@gnso.icann.org [mailto:owner-council@gnso.icann.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Kinderis Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 10:11 AM To: Avri Doria; Council GNSO Subject: RE: [council] Response to ccNSO/GAC Issues report The same issue was raised at our table Avri. I believe your suggested change would be appropriate. Regards, Adrian Kinderis Managing Director AusRegistry Group Pty Ltd Level 8, 10 Queens Road Melbourne. Victoria Australia. 3004 Ph: +61 3 9866 3710 Fax: +61 3 9866 1970 Email: adrian@ausregistry.com Web: www.ausregistrygroup.com The information contained in this communication is intended for the named recipients only. It is subject to copyright and may contain legally privileged and confidential information and if you are not an intended recipient you must not use, copy, distribute or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this communication in error, please delete all copies from your system and notify us immediately. -----Original Message----- From: owner-council@gnso.icann.org [mailto:owner-council@gnso.icann.org] On Behalf Of Avri Doria Sent: Monday, 11 February 2008 12:59 PM To: Council GNSO Subject: [council] Response to ccNSO/GAC Issues report Hi, At my table this evening, we had a conversation about Executive summary point #5 - specifically the last phrase "... without GNSO's concurrence" While explaning it this, I explained that it really refered to the need to have have resolved the issue as explained in #2 and the ICANn community had achieved a common agreement of an interim procedure. I am wondering whether we might be to change it to say: " without prior community concurrence" thanks a. IP JUSTICE Robin Gross, Executive Director 1192 Haight Street, San Francisco, CA 94117 USA p: +1-415-553-6261 f: +1-415-462-6451 w: http://www.ipjustice.org e: robin@ipjustice.org IP JUSTICE Robin Gross, Executive Director 1192 Haight Street, San Francisco, CA 94117 USA p: +1-415-553-6261 f: +1-415-462-6451 w: http://www.ipjustice.org e: robin@ipjustice.org
I have to agree with Mike, I do not think that there is any way of keeping governments from having their countries name in the scripts used in their country (or likewise important to their country). Trying to impose or persuade them to have such "territorial TLDs"under a GNSO ICANN governed regime if they could have the liberty to set the rules by themselves does not seem to me a good use of our time. Lets not kid our self if i.e the USG decides out of whatever reasons that they want .USA in kanji script there is no way that a.) ICANN can keep them from doing so a.) that they would submit them self to the GNSO processes. That holds also true for the German and Cambodian or in fact every government in the world. Instead of getting in endless debates with the cc Community and the GAC about how many TLDs a country can have and what scripts it can be we should rather engage into discussions on how to come up with a "new " iso 3166 list or algorithm to make a clear distinction between cc and g. Best, tom _____ Von: owner-council@gnso.icann.org [mailto:owner-council@gnso.icann.org] Im Auftrag von Mike Rodenbaugh Gesendet: Montag, 11. Februar 2008 13:41 An: 'Robin Gross'; 'Council GNSO' Betreff: RE: [council] Response to ccNSO/GAC Issues report I would be fine with concept of an IDN ccTLD for any string that is a 'meaningful representation of a country name.' I understand there is work to define that and to provide a challenge procedure, but think that should not be very difficult. The toughest part I envision is to ensure that words that are languages can be gTLDs, i.e. .hebrew or ..korean in those scripts; even though .israel or .korea in those scripts would be proper ccTLDs. If ccNSO and GAC commit that they will not request any additional strings beyond representations of country names, then we should not stand in the way of those. In answer to Robin's question whether any/every country should get an IDN ccTLD in Chinese, I think that would be fine, just as they all have one in ASCII. Thanks, Mike From: owner-council@gnso.icann.org [mailto:owner-council@gnso.icann.org] On Behalf Of Robin Gross Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 4:13 AM To: Council GNSO Subject: Re: [council] Response to ccNSO/GAC Issues report I see that my statement below has a typo that should be corrected on the issue of the number of scripts per country. I did not mean "if two countries are going to start a war over a domain name, ..." I meant, if two COMMUNITIES within a country are going to start a war over a domain name..." Further on this point, I don't think we should succumb to the threat, "if you don't give us what we want, we will kill each other". That does not strike me as the kind of principled argument we should bow to. Robin On Feb 10, 2008, at 9:49 PM, Robin Gross wrote: The same issue was raised at my table by the board members. The feeling was "if two countries are going to start a war over a domain name, that is their problem. They must pick 1 name." I think there is merit to this view. It was also mentioned that Chinese is a script that is used by a large community in just about EVERY country in the world, so does this mean every country gets a script in Chinese? In the US alone, there are large language communities for probably 10 scripts, giving the US 10 scripts under our rule. I do not believe this is what we intended. And a few other points were raised that need to be dealt with. In particular, the recommendation that "strings must not be confusingly similar" is misplaced. Only technical confusion is the type that should be dealt with here, not general confusion. I agree. This recommendation really does not make sense from a trademark viewpoint (although that is how it is intended), since a domain name, by itself, does not cause confusion, but only with relation to how the domain is used. We are going well beyond technical stability and trying to regulate other things that are outside ICANN's authority. Perhaps we should give more thought to our recommendations before we vote on them. I found the feedback from the board to be enormously useful and we should try to address their concerns before voting. Thanks, Robin On Feb 10, 2008, at 7:39 PM, Norbert Klein wrote: I also agree with Avri's suggestion, where others already consented. At the table I was - and I later talking to people from another table - there was opposition to the "One IDNccTLD per one script per one language group": "their government should decide to choose just one." I was surprised about the lack of sensitivity on the political/social/cultural implications. I argued - as a example - saying that it would be highly destructive in the presently tense situation, if the Malaysian government would give preference to the Chinese over against the Indian ethnic sections of the society by allocating only one IDNccTLD, but this was dismissed as "not ICANN's problem." Norbert - ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: RE: [council] Response to ccNSO/GAC Issues report Date: Monday, 11 February 2008 From: "Edmon Chung" <edmon@dotasia.org> To: "'Council GNSO'" <council@gnso.icann.org> Agreed. Edmon -----Original Message----- From: owner-council@gnso.icann.org [mailto:owner-council@gnso.icann.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Kinderis Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 10:11 AM To: Avri Doria; Council GNSO Subject: RE: [council] Response to ccNSO/GAC Issues report The same issue was raised at our table Avri. I believe your suggested change would be appropriate. Regards, Adrian Kinderis -- If you want to know what is going on in Cambodia, please visit us regularly - you can find something new every day: http://cambodiamirror.wordpress.com Agreed. Edmon -----Original Message----- From: owner-council@gnso.icann.org [mailto:owner-council@gnso.icann.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Kinderis Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 10:11 AM To: Avri Doria; Council GNSO Subject: RE: [council] Response to ccNSO/GAC Issues report The same issue was raised at our table Avri. I believe your suggested change would be appropriate. Regards, Adrian Kinderis Managing Director AusRegistry Group Pty Ltd Level 8, 10 Queens Road Melbourne. Victoria Australia. 3004 Ph: +61 3 9866 3710 Fax: +61 3 9866 1970 Email: adrian@ausregistry.com Web: www.ausregistrygroup.com The information contained in this communication is intended for the named recipients only. It is subject to copyright and may contain legally privileged and confidential information and if you are not an intended recipient you must not use, copy, distribute or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this communication in error, please delete all copies from your system and notify us immediately. -----Original Message----- From: owner-council@gnso.icann.org [mailto:owner-council@gnso.icann.org] On Behalf Of Avri Doria Sent: Monday, 11 February 2008 12:59 PM To: Council GNSO Subject: [council] Response to ccNSO/GAC Issues report Hi, At my table this evening, we had a conversation about Executive summary point #5 - specifically the last phrase "... without GNSO's concurrence" While explaning it this, I explained that it really refered to the need to have have resolved the issue as explained in #2 and the ICANn community had achieved a common agreement of an interim procedure. I am wondering whether we might be to change it to say: " without prior community concurrence" thanks a. IP JUSTICE Robin Gross, Executive Director 1192 Haight Street, San Francisco, CA 94117 USA p: +1-415-553-6261 f: +1-415-462-6451 w: http://www.ipjustice.org e: robin@ipjustice.org IP JUSTICE Robin Gross, Executive Director 1192 Haight Street, San Francisco, CA 94117 USA p: +1-415-553-6261 f: +1-415-462-6451 w: http://www.ipjustice.org e: robin@ipjustice.org
Hi, After yesterday's meeting I am inclined to agree as well. When you get right down to it what difference does it make whether the list of possible ccTLDs is 2000 or 10000 or more. a. On 12 Feb 2008, at 18:09, Thomas Keller wrote:
I have to agree with Mike, I do not think that there is any way of keeping governments from having their countries name in the scripts used in their country (or likewise important to their country). Trying to impose or persuade them to have such "territorial TLDs"under a GNSO ICANN governed regime if they could have the liberty to set the rules by themselves does not seem to me a good use of our time. Lets not kid our self if i.e the USG decides out of whatever reasons that they want .USA in kanji script there is no way that a.) ICANN can keep them from doing so a.) that they would submit them self to the GNSO processes. That holds also true for the German and Cambodian or in fact every government in the world.
Instead of getting in endless debates with the cc Community and the GAC about how many TLDs a country can have and what scripts it can be we should rather engage into discussions on how to come up with a "new " iso 3166 list or algorithm to make a clear distinction between cc and g.
Best,
tom Von: owner-council@gnso.icann.org [mailto:owner- council@gnso.icann.org] Im Auftrag von Mike Rodenbaugh Gesendet: Montag, 11. Februar 2008 13:41 An: 'Robin Gross'; 'Council GNSO' Betreff: RE: [council] Response to ccNSO/GAC Issues report
I would be fine with concept of an IDN ccTLD for any string that is a ‘meaningful representation of a country name.’ I understand there is work to define that and to provide a challenge procedure, but think that should not be very difficult. The toughest part I envision is to ensure that words that are languages can be gTLDs, i.e. .hebrew or ..korean in those scripts; even though .israel or .korea in those scripts would be proper ccTLDs. If ccNSO and GAC commit that they will not request any additional strings beyond representations of country names, then we should not stand in the way of those.
In answer to Robin’s question whether any/every country should get an IDN ccTLD in Chinese, I think that would be fine, just as they all have one in ASCII.
Thanks, Mike
From: owner-council@gnso.icann.org [mailto:owner-council@gnso.icann.org ] On Behalf Of Robin Gross Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 4:13 AM To: Council GNSO Subject: Re: [council] Response to ccNSO/GAC Issues report
I see that my statement below has a typo that should be corrected on the issue of the number of scripts per country.
I did not mean "if two countries are going to start a war over a domain name, ..."
I meant, if two COMMUNITIES within a country are going to start a war over a domain name..."
Further on this point, I don't think we should succumb to the threat, "if you don't give us what we want, we will kill each other". That does not strike me as the kind of principled argument we should bow to.
Robin
On Feb 10, 2008, at 9:49 PM, Robin Gross wrote:
The same issue was raised at my table by the board members. The feeling was "if two countries are going to start a war over a domain name, that is their problem. They must pick 1 name." I think there is merit to this view. It was also mentioned that Chinese is a script that is used by a large community in just about EVERY country in the world, so does this mean every country gets a script in Chinese? In the US alone, there are large language communities for probably 10 scripts, giving the US 10 scripts under our rule. I do not believe this is what we intended.
And a few other points were raised that need to be dealt with. In particular, the recommendation that "strings must not be confusingly similar" is misplaced. Only technical confusion is the type that should be dealt with here, not general confusion. I agree. This recommendation really does not make sense from a trademark viewpoint (although that is how it is intended), since a domain name, by itself, does not cause confusion, but only with relation to how the domain is used. We are going well beyond technical stability and trying to regulate other things that are outside ICANN's authority.
Perhaps we should give more thought to our recommendations before we vote on them. I found the feedback from the board to be enormously useful and we should try to address their concerns before voting.
Thanks, Robin
On Feb 10, 2008, at 7:39 PM, Norbert Klein wrote:
I also agree with Avri's suggestion, where others already consented.
At the table I was - and I later talking to people from another table - there was opposition to the "One IDNccTLD per one script per one language group": "their government should decide to choose just one."
I was surprised about the lack of sensitivity on the political/ social/cultural implications. I argued - as a example - saying that it would be highly destructive in the presently tense situation, if the Malaysian government would give preference to the Chinese over against the Indian ethnic sections of the society by allocating only one IDNccTLD, but this was dismissed as "not ICANN's problem."
Norbert
-
---------- Forwarded Message ----------
Subject: RE: [council] Response to ccNSO/GAC Issues report Date: Monday, 11 February 2008 From: "Edmon Chung" <edmon@dotasia.org> To: "'Council GNSO'" <council@gnso.icann.org>
Agreed. Edmon
-----Original Message----- From: owner-council@gnso.icann.org [mailto:owner-council@gnso.icann.org ] On Behalf Of Adrian Kinderis Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 10:11 AM To: Avri Doria; Council GNSO Subject: RE: [council] Response to ccNSO/GAC Issues report
The same issue was raised at our table Avri.
I believe your suggested change would be appropriate.
Regards,
Adrian Kinderis
-- If you want to know what is going on in Cambodia, please visit us regularly - you can find something new every day:
http://cambodiamirror.wordpress.com
Agreed. Edmon
-----Original Message----- From: owner-council@gnso.icann.org [mailto:owner-council@gnso.icann.org ] On Behalf Of Adrian Kinderis Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 10:11 AM To: Avri Doria; Council GNSO Subject: RE: [council] Response to ccNSO/GAC Issues report
The same issue was raised at our table Avri.
I believe your suggested change would be appropriate.
Regards,
Adrian Kinderis Managing Director AusRegistry Group Pty Ltd Level 8, 10 Queens Road Melbourne. Victoria Australia. 3004 Ph: +61 3 9866 3710 Fax: +61 3 9866 1970 Email: adrian@ausregistry.com Web: www.ausregistrygroup.com
The information contained in this communication is intended for the named recipients only. It is subject to copyright and may contain legally privileged and confidential information and if you are not an intended recipient you must not use, copy, distribute or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this communication in error, please delete all copies from your system and notify us immediately.
-----Original Message----- From: owner-council@gnso.icann.org [mailto:owner-council@gnso.icann.org ] On Behalf Of Avri Doria Sent: Monday, 11 February 2008 12:59 PM To: Council GNSO Subject: [council] Response to ccNSO/GAC Issues report
Hi,
At my table this evening, we had a conversation about Executive summary point #5 - specifically the last phrase "... without GNSO's concurrence"
While explaning it this, I explained that it really refered to the need to have have resolved the issue as explained in #2 and the ICANn community had achieved a common agreement of an interim procedure.
I am wondering whether we might be to change it to say: " without prior community concurrence"
thanks
a.
IP JUSTICE Robin Gross, Executive Director 1192 Haight Street, San Francisco, CA 94117 USA p: +1-415-553-6261 f: +1-415-462-6451 w: http://www.ipjustice.org e: robin@ipjustice.org
IP JUSTICE Robin Gross, Executive Director 1192 Haight Street, San Francisco, CA 94117 USA p: +1-415-553-6261 f: +1-415-462-6451 w: http://www.ipjustice.org e: robin@ipjustice.org
Avri, collegues, I agree with the change in 5. of the Executive Summary. On the other hand they asked me why considering the ISO list, if all countries could apply for IDNs cc or gtlds once the process starts. In the fast track stage each country could get one significant idn cctld. All new IDN ccTLDs and IDNs gTLDs should have the same contractual relationship with ICANN, all should be treated equally. Regards Olga 2008/2/11, Norbert Klein <nhklein@gmx.net>:
I also agree with Avri's suggestion, where others already consented.
At the table I was - and I later talking to people from another table - there was opposition to the "One IDNccTLD per one script per one language group": "their government should decide to choose just one."
I was surprised about the lack of sensitivity on the political/social/cultural implications. I argued - as a example - saying that it would be highly destructive in the presently tense situation, if the Malaysian government would give preference to the Chinese over against the Indian ethnic sections of the society by allocating only one IDNccTLD, but this was dismissed as "not ICANN's problem."
Norbert
-
---------- Forwarded Message ----------
Subject: RE: [council] Response to ccNSO/GAC Issues report Date: Monday, 11 February 2008 From: "Edmon Chung" <edmon@dotasia.org> To: "'Council GNSO'" <council@gnso.icann.org>
Agreed. Edmon
-----Original Message----- From: owner-council@gnso.icann.org [mailto:owner-council@gnso.icann.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Kinderis Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 10:11 AM To: Avri Doria; Council GNSO Subject: RE: [council] Response to ccNSO/GAC Issues report
The same issue was raised at our table Avri.
I believe your suggested change would be appropriate.
Regards,
Adrian Kinderis
-- If you want to know what is going on in Cambodia, please visit us regularly - you can find something new every day:
http://cambodiamirror.wordpress.com
Agreed. Edmon
-----Original Message----- From: owner-council@gnso.icann.org [mailto:owner-council@gnso.icann.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Kinderis Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 10:11 AM To: Avri Doria; Council GNSO Subject: RE: [council] Response to ccNSO/GAC Issues report
The same issue was raised at our table Avri.
I believe your suggested change would be appropriate.
Regards,
Adrian Kinderis Managing Director AusRegistry Group Pty Ltd Level 8, 10 Queens Road Melbourne. Victoria Australia. 3004 Ph: +61 3 9866 3710 Fax: +61 3 9866 1970 Email: adrian@ausregistry.com Web: www.ausregistrygroup.com
The information contained in this communication is intended for the named recipients only. It is subject to copyright and may contain legally privileged and confidential information and if you are not an intended recipient you must not use, copy, distribute or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this communication in error, please delete all copies from your system and notify us immediately.
-----Original Message----- From: owner-council@gnso.icann.org [mailto:owner-council@gnso.icann.org] On Behalf Of Avri Doria Sent: Monday, 11 February 2008 12:59 PM To: Council GNSO Subject: [council] Response to ccNSO/GAC Issues report
Hi,
At my table this evening, we had a conversation about Executive summary point #5 - specifically the last phrase "... without GNSO's concurrence"
While explaning it this, I explained that it really refered to the need to have have resolved the issue as explained in #2 and the ICANn community had achieved a common agreement of an interim procedure.
I am wondering whether we might be to change it to say: " without prior community concurrence"
thanks
a.
participants (7)
-
Avri Doria -
Gomes, Chuck -
Mike Rodenbaugh -
Norbert Klein -
Olga Cavalli -
Robin Gross -
Thomas Keller