Let us not forget that the use of this effective tool provides security to the DNS, thus providing security to various members of our multi-stakeholder system. So, perhaps, ICANN could consider the possibility of making some agreement with these government providers so that the cost is zero. I am writing this on behalf of the end users of the Internet.

 

Regards

 

Alberto

 

De: Theo Geurts <atlarge@dcx.nl>
Enviado el: lunes, 17 de febrero de 2025 11:48
Para: alberto@soto.net.ar; Steinar Grøtterød <steinar@recito.no>; Carlton Samuels <carlton.samuels@gmail.com>; 'Jonathan Zuck' <JZuck@innovatorsnetwork.org>
CC: Bill Jouris via CPWG <cpwg@icann.org>; 'ALAC' <alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org>; 'Michael Palage' <michael@palage.com>
Asunto: Re: [CPWG] Re: [ALAC] Re: Statement on Registration Data Accuracy

 

Great suggestion/example Alberto, 

 

And yes in Germany and Belgium, you pay for the digital signature, which shifts the costs to the registrant. I do not know if that is bad or a good solution. But I do agree that a better understanding of what the options are of the governments of 193 countries is important to know. 

 

Also, what does it mean in terms of accuracy when there are no commercial or governmental services for certain countries? Will there be a shift where registrants decide not to pay 5 USD for a signature because they figured out if they provide country X which has none of the above to avoid those costs?

 

Best, 

Theo

 

 

 

On Mon, Feb 17, 2025, at 2:24 PM, alberto@soto.net.ar wrote:

 

Agree.

 

In these particular cases, it would be necessary to find out whether the service provided by governments is chargeable or free of charge. I believe that Germany in some cases has a small fee.

The Belgian government offers digital signature services through the Belgian Certification Authority (GlobalSign).

It should be noted that these digital certificates allow citizens and companies to sign electronic documents in a secure and legally valid manner.

 

The German government provides digital signature services through the Federal Authority for Information Technology and Data Protection (BSI).

 

Best

 

Alberto

 

De: Theo Geurts <atlarge@dcx.nl>
Enviado el: lunes, 17 de febrero de 2025 10:15
Para: Steinar Grøtterød <steinar@recito.no>; alberto@soto.net.ar; Carlton Samuels <carlton.samuels@gmail.com>; 'Jonathan Zuck' <JZuck@innovatorsnetwork.org>
CC: Bill Jouris via CPWG <cpwg@icann.org>; 'ALAC' <alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org>; 'Michael Palage' <michael@palage.com>
Asunto: Re: [CPWG] Re: [ALAC] Re: Statement on Registration Data Accuracy

 

Steinar, 

 

While you raise a valid point, it is part of a more extensive economic discussion. 

 

To have better or more accurate data, it needs to be combined with verification systems, or else it does not make sense. 

Mickey Mouse with a valid address is still not accurate data. 

 

These verification systems are costly. 

To verify Dutch registrants, would cost around 400.000 Euros each year for the registrar I work for. 

Belgium registrants will set us back around 200.000 Euros.

So with only two countries, it is 600.000 Euros a year and I still need to cover 191 other countries. 

 

With the current profit margins, the entire thing is not economically feasible. Sure prices can go up, but at some point, people cannot afford a domain name and then the issue of the digital divide enters the discussion. 

 

Best, 

Theo

 

 

 

On Mon, Feb 17, 2025, at 12:22 PM, Steinar Grøtterød via CPWG wrote:

Please remember that some registrars operate in a global marked with registrants from all over the world. Implementing multiple Digital Signature Systems will - as a minimum - increase the registration fees.

 

Regards,

Steinar Grøtterød

 

From: Alberto Soto via CPWG <cpwg@icann.org>

Date: Monday, 17 February 2025 at 12:04

To: 'Carlton Samuels' <carlton.samuels@gmail.com>, 'Jonathan Zuck' <JZuck@innovatorsnetwork.org>

Cc: 'CPWG' <cpwg@icann.org>, 'ALAC' <alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org>, 'Michael Palage' <michael@palage.com>

Subject: [CPWG] Re: [ALAC] Re: Statement on Registration Data Accuracy

I believe that as an ALAC Member I would suggest that all registration be done through a Digital Signature provider. Currently, multi-million dollar contracts are signed through this system. A and B want to sign that contract. But they are far away, or they do not have a way to verify the identity with correct data on the other side, and they want to make sure that they are specifically identified. Then they turn to C, a Digital Signature service provider. There are many governments that have the system and offer it for free. C is responsible for verifying both A and B, and after doing so, the contract is signed digitally with a double key (public and private), and it is sent partially encrypted to both parties. In C, the security and permanence of the contract is ensured.

I proposed it several times, but there was no repercussion.

Kind regards

Alberto

 

De: Carlton Samuels via ALAC <alac@icann.org>
Enviado el: domingo, 16 de febrero de 2025 17:39
Para: Jonathan Zuck <JZuck@innovatorsnetwork.org>
CC: Alan Greenberg <greenberg.alan@gmail.com>; CPWG <cpwg@icann.org>; ALAC <alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org>; Michael Palage <michael@palage.com>
Asunto: [ALAC] Re: Statement on Registration Data Accuracy

 

I see all this and I’m still gobsmacked how easy it is to connive at error.  Leading……well, um threshold questions are always intended to enforce adaption of a set narrative.  That should be rejected for cause.

There is no successful contradiction for the evidence of inaccuracy in contact data and the registration system still lacks meaningful enforcement of the existing data accuracy policy for the DNS. It remains astonishing how easily errors persist—registrars are required to warrant that registrants provide valid contact details, yet verification remains weak. ICANN’s policy demands that registrars validate and periodically review phone and email contacts, even as these are constantly changing and too often left unchecked.

Here is what we know for sure. The self-regulated registration data (WHOIS) accuracy model has failed. We have undeniable proof: emails don’t resolve, phone numbers are unreachable, and registrars face no real consequences for non-compliance. What we have here is a policy that exists in theory but not in practice. ICANN, the supposed master regulator, has failed to enforce its own policy. Evidence of oversight is weak to non-existent, and without penalties, registrars have no incentive to comply.

Enter NIS2, which flips the script on registration data (WHOIS) accuracy. It raises the bar on verification, intends enforcement of legally binding government oversight and introduces penalties for non-compliance. So now, the hue and cry. Because if the EU enforces this directive as law, it would fragment the domain registration landscape, resulting in divergent verification standards, conflicting enforcement mechanisms, and inevitable clashes with GDPR. Lawyers will thrive with the legal grey areas now at play.

But let’s not get lost in the noise. If the true goal of the registration data (WHOIS) accuracy is contactability, then who the registrant claims to be is secondary. Whether they identify as Wile E. Coyote, Donald D. Duck, or Jack Schitt shouldn’t matter. So long as they can be reached via a valid phone number or email.  And if they cannot be reached, there are consequences.

Carlton

 

==============================

Carlton A Samuels

Mobile: 876-818-1799
Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround

=============================

 

 

On Fri, 14 Feb 2025 at 14:02, Jonathan Zuck via ALAC <alac@icann.org> wrote:

Thanks for your work on this! As I read it, it seems to be missing the end user impact assessment that we have begun to incorporate in such comments. We make the point that we’re not the experts but instead rely on the expertise of others but could we site some of those experts to lay out a few bullets that tie this exercise back to our mandate and remit?

 

From: Alan Greenberg <greenberg.alan@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2025 12:10 PM
To: Jonathan Zuck <JZuck@innovatorsnetwork.org>
Cc: CPWG <cpwg@icann.org>; ALAC <alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org>; Michael Palage <michael@palage.com>
Subject: Statement on Registration Data Accuracy

 

Jonathan, the statement in response to the GNSO query related to registration data accuracy is not finalized.

 

It is a significant enhancement on the version discussed during yesterday's CPWG meeting, but is identical in its overall intent.

 

It is a much stronger and hopefully effective message.

 

It was a collaborative effort of Michael, Cheryl, Justine and me.

 

 

Alan

 

 

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