It's not really a debate about harm. Adding cognitive load to an end user results in a wider attack plane enabling more DNS abuse which is bad for end users. Does this mean the ship has sailed on the fight against DNS Abuse? I certainly hope not. End Users deserve a voice ... wherever the ship may be. Let's look at the reality found in Olivier's link ... He then provided two URLs: https://github.com∕kubernetes∕kubernetes∕archive∕refs∕tags∕@v1271.zip and https://github.com/kubernetes/kubernetes/archive/refs/tags/v1.27.1.zip Market forces may be pushing a new product with no perceivable value, but let's call it what it is. A product defect is a product defect. Google is playing a game with End User trust that At-Large should not follow. Cheers, David On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 6:50 AM Khaled Koubaa via CPWG <cpwg@icann.org> wrote:

Thank you Olivier.

There is indeed a long list of TLDs that are File Extension including very widely used ones such as .io or .xyz

This blog post has the full list : https://wkumari.github.io/2023/05/15/TLDs-that-are-extensions.html

PS: The writer of the blogpost is Warren Kumari from Google PS2: I agree with his statement "I think that this particular ship has sailed"

Khaled

Khaled Koubaa

Twitter : @koubaak <https://twitter.com/koubaak>

LinkedIn : linkedin.com/in/koubaak/ <http://www.linkedin.com/in/koubaak/>

Website : koubaa.net

On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 1:29 PM Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond via CPWG < cpwg@icann.org> wrote:

...

From ARS Technica, 18 May 2023:

A recent move by Google to populate the Internet with eight new top-level domains is prompting concerns that two of the additions could be a boon to online scammers who trick people into clicking on malicious links.

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2023/05/critics-say-googles-n...

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The ship has sailed, this is a certainty. But that does not mean that the fight against DNS abuse has stopped, or has no meaning now. The .zip was an example the article's writer has used to highlight the risk, but that is indeed the same risk that existed already with the long list of other extensions that existed before the .zip Khaled Koubaa Twitter : @koubaak <https://twitter.com/koubaak> LinkedIn : linkedin.com/in/koubaak/ <http://www.linkedin.com/in/koubaak/> Website : koubaa.net On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 3:45 PM David Mackey <mackey361@gmail.com> wrote:

It's not really a debate about harm. Adding cognitive load to an end user results in a wider attack plane enabling more DNS abuse which is bad for end users.

Does this mean the ship has sailed on the fight against DNS Abuse?

I certainly hope not. End Users deserve a voice ... wherever the ship may be.

Let's look at the reality found in Olivier's link ...

He then provided two URLs: https://github.com∕kubernetes∕kubernetes∕archive∕refs∕tags∕@v1271.zip

and

https://github.com/kubernetes/kubernetes/archive/refs/tags/v1.27.1.zip Market forces may be pushing a new product with no perceivable value, but let's call it what it is. A product defect is a product defect. Google is playing a game with End User trust that At-Large should not follow.

Cheers, David

On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 6:50 AM Khaled Koubaa via CPWG <cpwg@icann.org> wrote:

...

Thank you Olivier.

There is indeed a long list of TLDs that are File Extension including very widely used ones such as .io or .xyz

This blog post has the full list : https://wkumari.github.io/2023/05/15/TLDs-that-are-extensions.html

PS: The writer of the blogpost is Warren Kumari from Google PS2: I agree with his statement "I think that this particular ship has sailed"

Khaled

Khaled Koubaa

Twitter : @koubaak <https://twitter.com/koubaak>

LinkedIn : linkedin.com/in/koubaak/ <http://www.linkedin.com/in/koubaak/>

Website : koubaa.net

On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 1:29 PM Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond via CPWG < cpwg@icann.org> wrote:

...

From ARS Technica, 18 May 2023:

A recent move by Google to populate the Internet with eight new top-level domains is prompting concerns that two of the additions could be a boon to online scammers who trick people into clicking on malicious links.

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2023/05/critics-say-googles-n...

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I don't work for Google nor speak on their behalf. I checked the domains.google: I found that the price of the .zip is $15, and there is a requirement for a .zip website to use HTTPS. I don't think the SSL part could resolve the risk as anyone could obtain a free SSL certificate nowadays, but the price is reasonably higher than a .com The focus should not be on the ".zip" but on reducing the risk for end users. The solution could be at the browser level and the DNS level. Any attempt to resolve this issue at the DNS level would consider the effect of measures on the rest of the DNS. Khaled Koubaa Twitter : @koubaak <https://twitter.com/koubaak> LinkedIn : linkedin.com/in/koubaak/ <http://www.linkedin.com/in/koubaak/> Website : koubaa.net On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 3:49 PM John McCormac via CPWG <cpwg@icann.org> wrote:

On 30/05/2023 11:49, Khaled Koubaa via CPWG wrote:

...

Thank you Olivier.

There is indeed a long list of TLDs that are File Extension including very widely used ones such as .io or .xyz

This blog post has the full list : https://wkumari.github.io/2023/05/15/TLDs-that-are-extensions.html <https://wkumari.github.io/2023/05/15/TLDs-that-are-extensions.html> ble PS: The writer of the blogpost is Warren Kumari from Google PS2: I agree with his statement "I think that this particular ship has sailed"

I would not agree with that, Khaled, The .ZIP gTLD is going to be a major problem because of the way that domain names and links are parsed. Not everyone is an expert with regular expressions used to parse text so the default position for many mailserver administrators will be to ban the .ZIP gTLD at a mailserver level. The .MOV may also be a problem but it is the .ZIP which poses the greatest risk due to its widespread use.

The key factor in the damage that .ZIP will cause, and it will cause problems, will be the pricing of .ZIP new registrations. If Google prices them as a multiple of .COM then that will limit some of the damage. If it uses discounting to drive registration volume, that will turn a small problem into a much bigger one.

Regards...jmcc

...

Khaled

Khaled Koubaa

Twitter : @koubaak <https://twitter.com/koubaak>____

LinkedIn : linkedin.com/in/koubaak/ <http://www.linkedin.com/in/koubaak/

Website :koubaa.net <https://koubaa.net/>

On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 1:29 PM Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond via CPWG <cpwg@icann.org <mailto:cpwg@icann.org>> wrote:

From ARS Technica, 18 May 2023:

A recent move by Google to populate the Internet with eight new top-level domains is prompting concerns that two of the additions could be a boon to online scammers who trick people into clicking on malicious links.

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2023/05/critics-say-googles-n... < https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2023/05/critics-say-googles-n...

...

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-- ********************************************************** John McCormac * e-mail: jmcc@hosterstats.com MC2 * web: http://www.hosterstats.com/ 22 Viewmount * Domain Registrations Statistics Waterford * Domnomics - the business of domain names Ireland * https://amzn.to/2OPtEIO IE * Skype: hosterstats.com **********************************************************

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I noticed that your first goal focuses on the future round of gTLDs, and the second focuses on the .zip. Does this mean we shouldn't look at the existing TLDs? I said the focus should not be the .zip to avoid the risk of omitting the other extension-TLDs - the risk associated with them - and not to diminish the risk associated with .zip Khaled On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 7:41 PM Bill Jouris via CPWG <cpwg@icann.org> wrote:

"The focus should not be on the ".zip" but on reducing the risk for end users. The solution could be at the browser level and the DNS level. "

I disagree. I think we should pursue two goals simultaneously:

1) modify the process for vetting new proposed gTLDs, so problems like this get stopped. Maybe it's a new review. Maybe it's just putting people on the review panel who are familiar enough with the online world to spot these sorts of issues immediately.

2) deal with .ZIP specifically. I think the potential harm here is substantial enough that ICANN should explore rescinding it's approval. At absolute minimum, the gTLD holder should be notified a) that we see an obvious risk here, and b) that by continuing to register .ZIP domains they are assuming any and all legal risks -- that is, any victims of DNS Abuse can sue them and have ICANN's explicit support (in addition to being able to cite the notification at trial). In short, by registering a .ZIP domain they are complicit, and legally accessories before the fact.

Bill Jouris

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android <https://go.onelink.me/107872968?pid=InProduct&c=Global_Internal_YGrowth_Andr...>

On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 5:49 AM, Khaled Koubaa via CPWG <cpwg@icann.org> wrote: _______________________________________________ CPWG mailing list CPWG@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cpwg

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Chantelle, Let’s find some time on the next CPWG call to discuss this situation. This might result in a discussion of advice or in a discussion of correspondence to the SSAC. Let’s get it on the agenda. Thanks. Jonathan From: CPWG <cpwg-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Bill Jouris via CPWG <cpwg@icann.org> Date: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 4:26 PM To: cpwg@icann.org <cpwg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [CPWG] Google pushes .zip and .mov domains onto the Internet, and the Internet pushes back I apologize for misunderstanding your point. Indeed we should look at other existing gTLDs as well. But .ZIP is something that we already know about, and thus can act on immediately. Plus, as we do so, we create a process for dealing with other problematic existing gTLDs as we discover them. Bill Jouris Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android<https://mail.onelink.me/107872968?pid=nativeplacement&c=Global_Acquisition_Y...> On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 12:25 PM, Khaled Koubaa via CPWG <cpwg@icann.org> wrote: _______________________________________________ CPWG mailing list CPWG@icann.org<mailto:CPWG@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cpwg _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.

Hi Maria, Not sure if forbidden is the right label here but in the old rules - this would be like the 2012 round of gTLD - each TLD had a list of reserved names, meaning those that could not be in the trade. If memory serves, those were listed in the RA. At the top level, there are reserved strings that may not be delegated and those were listed. Well, almost all of them anyways; .internet itself was an outlier. Carlton ============================== *Carlton A Samuels* *Mobile: 876-818-1799Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* ============================= On Tue, 30 May 2023 at 17:53, Maria A via CPWG <cpwg@icann.org> wrote:

Hi everyone,

Sorry my view might not be too informed - but what is even Google's rationale to pushing these?

Also isn't there some sort of black list of forbidden domains?

Thank you, Maria

On Tue, May 30, 2023, 11:09 PM Jonathan Zuck via CPWG <cpwg@icann.org> wrote:

...

Chantelle,

Let’s find some time on the next CPWG call to discuss this situation. This might result in a discussion of advice or in a discussion of correspondence to the SSAC. Let’s get it on the agenda. Thanks.

Jonathan

*From: *CPWG <cpwg-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Bill Jouris via CPWG < cpwg@icann.org> *Date: *Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 4:26 PM *To: *cpwg@icann.org <cpwg@icann.org> *Subject: *Re: [CPWG] Google pushes .zip and .mov domains onto the Internet, and the Internet pushes back

I apologize for misunderstanding your point. Indeed we should look at other existing gTLDs as well.

But .ZIP is something that we already know about, and thus can act on immediately. Plus, as we do so, we create a process for dealing with other problematic existing gTLDs as we discover them.

Bill Jouris

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android <https://mail.onelink.me/107872968?pid=nativeplacement&c=Global_Acquisition_Y...>

On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 12:25 PM, Khaled Koubaa via CPWG

<cpwg@icann.org> wrote:

_______________________________________________ CPWG mailing list CPWG@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cpwg

_______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ CPWG mailing list CPWG@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cpwg

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There are not many ICANN-related issues that break through to the general consciousness and mainstream media. The attempted sale of .ORG was one such issue. .ZIP (specifically) is another such issue. I have seen it now mentioned on TV news. I have also seen a large global financial institution issue a warning about .zip to employees and vendors, even while noting the gTLD's existence is "above board." It is true that .zip is not unique in the type of risk it might pose. However, I think it is fair to consider .zip a highly malignant variation on this type of risk, with some special features. "Zip files" are sent by email all day every day by general business and non-business users. Indeed, they exist to be sent by email. ".io files" do not fit the same profile (and .io is a ccTLD, which changes the analysis as well). While this might be an opportunity to educate end-users about the existence of the larger problem, the .zip problem cannot be treated as merely one of many. Greg On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:21 PM Justine Chew via CPWG <cpwg@icann.org> wrote:

Maria,

Carlton is correct. In the 2012 round, there was a Top-Level Reserved Names List which contained strings that were not allowed, these were mainly associated with ICANN-related entities and functions as well as some "well-known technical words":

AFRINIC ALAC APNIC ARIN ASO CCNSO EXAMPLE GAC GNSO GTLD-SERVERS IAB IANA IANA-SERVERS ICANN IESG IETF INTERNIC INVALID IRTF ISTF LACNIC LOCAL LOCALHOST NIC NRO RFC-EDITOR RIPE ROOT-SERVERS RSSAC SSAC TEST TLD WHOIS WWW

For the next round, the ICANN Board has already approved a SubPro PDP recommendation to add PTI to the above list.

Justine

On Wed, 31 May 2023 at 07:18, Carlton Samuels via CPWG <cpwg@icann.org> wrote:

...

Hi Maria, Not sure if forbidden is the right label here but in the old rules - this would be like the 2012 round of gTLD - each TLD had a list of reserved names, meaning those that could not be in the trade. If memory serves, those were listed in the RA.

At the top level, there are reserved strings that may not be delegated and those were listed. Well, almost all of them anyways; .internet itself was an outlier.

Carlton

============================== *Carlton A Samuels*

*Mobile: 876-818-1799Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* =============================

On Tue, 30 May 2023 at 17:53, Maria A via CPWG <cpwg@icann.org> wrote:

...

Hi everyone,

Sorry my view might not be too informed - but what is even Google's rationale to pushing these?

Also isn't there some sort of black list of forbidden domains?

Thank you, Maria

On Tue, May 30, 2023, 11:09 PM Jonathan Zuck via CPWG <cpwg@icann.org> wrote:

...

Chantelle,

Let’s find some time on the next CPWG call to discuss this situation. This might result in a discussion of advice or in a discussion of correspondence to the SSAC. Let’s get it on the agenda. Thanks.

Jonathan

*From: *CPWG <cpwg-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Bill Jouris via CPWG <cpwg@icann.org> *Date: *Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 4:26 PM *To: *cpwg@icann.org <cpwg@icann.org> *Subject: *Re: [CPWG] Google pushes .zip and .mov domains onto the Internet, and the Internet pushes back

I apologize for misunderstanding your point. Indeed we should look at other existing gTLDs as well.

But .ZIP is something that we already know about, and thus can act on immediately. Plus, as we do so, we create a process for dealing with other problematic existing gTLDs as we discover them.

Bill Jouris

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android <https://mail.onelink.me/107872968?pid=nativeplacement&c=Global_Acquisition_Y...>

On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 12:25 PM, Khaled Koubaa via CPWG

<cpwg@icann.org> wrote:

_______________________________________________ CPWG mailing list CPWG@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cpwg

_______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ CPWG mailing list CPWG@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cpwg

_______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.

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-- *Greg Shatan* *Chair, NARALO*

They didn't include .COM which is an executable in Windows/MSDOS. :-) For anyone interested in this topic, I'd recommend watching a segment of the ALAC meeting with the SSAC at ICANN77, where some well informed discussion took place and SSAC experts explained the topic in further detail as well as its limited impact. https://icann.zoom.us/rec/share/eaGs3LYmt7fnnYb6DLIMvhG0EWAeQCEVpURvmZjwCfTa... Kindest regards, Olivier On 28/06/2023 05:02, Justine Chew via CPWG wrote:

https://circleid.com/posts/20230627-alleviating-the-risks-.zip-and-similar-d...

An interesting article on .zip and other similarly confusing gTLDs .(app, .cab, .cam, .mobi, .mov, .pub, .rip, and .win cited) from a DNS Abuse point of view.

Kind regards, Justine * *

On Wed, 31 May 2023 at 13:56, Greg Shatan [NARALO] <gregshatanalac@gmail.com> wrote:

There are not many ICANN-related issues that break through to the general consciousness and mainstream media.  The attempted sale of .ORG was one such issue.

.ZIP (specifically) is another such issue.  I have seen it now mentioned on TV news.  I have also seen a large global financial institution issue a warning about .zip to employees and vendors, even while noting the gTLD's existence is "above board."

It is true that .zip is not unique in the type of risk it might pose.

However, I think it is fair to consider .zip a highly malignant variation on this type of risk, with some special features. "Zip files" are sent by email all day every day by general business and non-business users. Indeed, they exist to be sent by email. ".io files" do not fit the same profile (and .io is a ccTLD, which changes the analysis as well).

While this might be an opportunity to educate end-users about the existence of the larger problem, the .zip problem cannot be treated as merely one of many.

Greg

On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:21 PM Justine Chew via CPWG <cpwg@icann.org> wrote:

Maria,

Carlton is correct. In the 2012 round, there was a Top-Level Reserved Names List which contained strings that were not allowed, these were mainly associated with ICANN-related entities and functions as well as some "well-known technical words":

AFRINIC  ALAC  APNIC  ARIN  ASO  CCNSO  EXAMPLE GAC  GNSO  GTLD-SERVERS  IAB  IANA  IANA-SERVERS ICANN IESG IETF INTERNIC  INVALID  IRTF ISTF  LACNIC  LOCAL LOCALHOST NIC  NRO  RFC-EDITOR  RIPE  ROOT-SERVERS RSSAC  SSAC  TEST TLD  WHOIS  WWW

For the next round, the ICANN Board has already approved a SubPro PDP recommendation to add PTI to the above list.

Justine * *

On Wed, 31 May 2023 at 07:18, Carlton Samuels via CPWG <cpwg@icann.org> wrote:

Hi Maria, Not sure if forbidden is the right label here but in the old rules - this would be like the 2012 round of gTLD - each TLD had a list of reserved names, meaning those that could not be in the trade.  If memory serves, those were listed in the RA.

At the top level, there are reserved strings that may not be delegated and those were listed. Well, almost all of them anyways; .internet itself was an outlier.

Carlton

============================== /Carlton A Samuels/ /Mobile: 876-818-1799 Strategy, Process, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround/ =============================

On Tue, 30 May 2023 at 17:53, Maria A via CPWG <cpwg@icann.org> wrote:

Hi everyone,

Sorry my view might not be too informed - but what is even Google's rationale to pushing these?

Also isn't there some sort of black list of forbidden domains?

Thank you, Maria

On Tue, May 30, 2023, 11:09 PM Jonathan Zuck via CPWG <cpwg@icann.org> wrote:

Chantelle,

Let’s find some time on the next CPWG call to discuss this situation. This might result in a discussion of advice or in a discussion of correspondence to the SSAC. Let’s get it on the agenda. Thanks.

Jonathan

*From: *CPWG <cpwg-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Bill Jouris via CPWG <cpwg@icann.org> *Date: *Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 4:26 PM *To: *cpwg@icann.org <cpwg@icann.org> *Subject: *Re: [CPWG] Google pushes .zip and .mov domains onto the Internet, and the Internet pushes back

I apologize for misunderstanding your point.  Indeed we should look at other existing gTLDs as well.

But .ZIP is something that we already know about, and thus can act on immediately.  Plus, as we do so, we create a process for dealing with other problematic existing gTLDs as we discover them.

Bill Jouris

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On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 12:25 PM, Khaled Koubaa via CPWG

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