It doesn't matter if there are voluntary PICs that have little impact or import. It is a mechanism that can be used to "guarantee" specific TLD characteristics. I agree that there is no chance of third-party beneficiary status, but they are enforceable through the PICDRP in some rather atypical situations and more important through compliance action. There have not been may such PICs worth reinforcing that have been violated, but it is a mechanism that we need to make sure contractual compliance addresses when needed. But to be clear, voluntary PICs *HAVE* been used to impose meaningful constraints of TLDs. Alan At 02/10/2019 12:43 AM, Greg Shatan wrote: I think Holly sums up my views as well. There is almost certainly a way forward toward enforceable PICs. This party beneficiaries can be given the right within a contract to enforce relevant portions. I don’t think the contracted parties will ever agree to that (and in the world as it is, that’s that). Failing that, the answer to third party enforceable PICs probably lies in taking them out of the Registry Agreements. PICs may not have a high degree of value now, but they are a toehold we shouldn’t lose. They can be built up into or at least traded for some levers of accountability for registries. Greg On Wed, Oct 2, 2019 at 12:27 AM Holly Raiche < h.raiche@internode.on.net<mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net>> wrote: I largely agree with Alan on both counts. Amazon is just too hard. I think we have to accept that there are quite legitimate and strongly held views on both sides, so we cannot, in all conscience, say that ALAC favors one view over the other. PICS are different. ALAC strongly supported mandatory PICS and argued for their inclusion into the Registry contract with ICANN so that there would be some mechanism for at least ICANN to monitor (if not enforce) contractual undertakings. (yes it is correct to say that others cannot enforce PICS - the legal explanation is the 3rd party beneficiary rule - only parties to a contract can enforce its terms against the other contracting party - third party beneficiaries cannot). Voluntary PICS are another issue (put bucket and spit into whatever order you choose). Yes, some were important. But if they are to be retained, we need think through how to make them more effective. Holly On Oct 2, 2019, at 1:08 PM, Alan Greenberg <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca<mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> > wrote: This message is in reply not only to Marita's message quoted here, but to some of the other replies in this thread as well. The ALAC has largely stayed out of the .amazon issue, and for good reasons: - We are divided - some of our members from the Amazon basin area feel strongly that the company should not have has been granted the domain, others feel strongly that they should - When we did a poll of ALAC members a while ago, the larges sentiment was that there not be one side that wins all and the other gets nothing The PICs are an attempt to ensure that there is not a 100% loser. How well they meet the countries demands and how well they will work is not clear, but I see no reason for the ALAC to get involved in it now. I cannot see us contributing so wisdom from on high which will make everyone agree. Put another way, we will certainly not be a major influence in the outcome, so perhaps (to quote Douglas Adams) it is mostly harmless, but I see no real benefit that justifies the work that would nee to go into it. The conversation went on to PICs in general. I am a strong supporter. The madatory PICs were largely as a result of GAC Advice on sensitive TLDs and they will not go away. That is good, as we strongly supported them. Many voluntary PICs were (to quote Carlton) not worth a warm bucket of spit (or alternatively, a bucket of warm spit - it is unclear which phrase was used first, but thereafter they were often interchangeable). But that really does not matter. There WERE some PICs that were strong and important. Moreover, it is a mechanism that CAN be used for a registry that does want to make a difference. So I think we need to do all we can to ensure that they stay for the next round(s). Several people are right that once there, enforcement is important (not for the "spit" ones, but for the relatively few that do have meaning). But that is a more general issue and not purely related to new TLDs. Alan At 26/09/2019 11:48 AM, Marita Moll wrote: Hello CPWG members. As requested please see below the primary and secondary sources that were used in researching the Amazon PICs issue Primary sources: *Approved Board resolutions; special meeting of the Board May 15, 2019 https://www.icann.org/resources/board-material/resolutions-2019-05-15-en#1.c *Text of .amazon PICS -- E-mail to ICANN Board https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/correspondence/huseman-to-chalaby-17ap... *Marby to Zaluar correspondence -- June 13, 2019 https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/correspondence/marby-to-zaluar-13jun19... *ICANN Application comment form https://gtldcomment.icann.org/applicationcomment/login Secondary sources: *Domain Mondo's weekly Internet domain news review June 2, 2019 www.domainmondo.com/2019/06/news-review-icann-gnso-epdp-phase-2.html *Hold your horses; the last wave of comments on .amazon hasn't started yet Kevin Murphy May 24, 2019 domainincite.com/24300-hold-your-horses-the-last-wave-of-comments-on-amazon-hasnt-started-yet *Amazon wins; ICANN on verge of approving .amazon despite government outrage Kevin Murphy, May 19, 2019 domainincite.com/24260-amazon-wins-icann-on-verge-of-approving-amazon-despite-government-outrage<https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/brcrb7/icann_on_verge_of_approv...> *.amazon domains are getting closer Konstantinos Zournas May 29, 2019 https://onlinedomain.com/2019/05/20/domain-name-news/amazon-domain-names-are... *Jeff Bezos finally gets .Amazon after DNS overlord runs out of excuses to delay decision any further Kieran McCarthy May 21, 2019 https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/05/21/bezos_finally_gets_amazon/ *ICANN says Amazon In's application for .amazon TLD can proceed following 30 days of public comment May 20, 2019 www.circleid.com/posts/20190520_icann_says_amazon_inc_application_for_dot_amazon_can_proceed/ _______________________________________________ CPWG mailing list CPWG@icann.org<mailto:CPWG@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cpwg _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). 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You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on._______________________________________________ registration-issues-wg mailing list registration-issues-wg@atlarge-lists.icann.org<mailto:registration-issues-wg@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/registration-issues-wg _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ CPWG mailing list CPWG@icann.org<mailto:CPWG@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cpwg _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on._______________________________________________ GTLD-WG mailing list GTLD-WG@atlarge-lists.icann.org<mailto:GTLD-WG@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gtld-wg Working Group direct URL: https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/New+GTLDs _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service ( https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. -- Greg Shatan greg@isoc-ny.org<mailto:greg@isoc-ny.org> President, ISOC-NY "The Internet is for everyone"