DT-X Separation Mechanism - first draft
Hi, A first draft of a possible separation mechanism is available <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pjRsvePXLHrK0zzFmMcavzvSXehds5FTCEUPPcc7...> The drive document remains open for suggested edits and comments. For convenience, have attached a word and pdf version avri --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com
hi, the correct drive link. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WvBqtgXJ7rNrbN-5Tjf5-gi80aZ2oRYDtF_JLrET... avri On 16-Apr-15 22:39, Avri Doria wrote:
Hi,
A first draft of a possible separation mechanism is available <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pjRsvePXLHrK0zzFmMcavzvSXehds5FTCEUPPcc7...>
The drive document remains open for suggested edits and comments.
For convenience, have attached a word and pdf version
avri
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Dear Avri, the document does not include the case of ICANN bankruptcy which I mentioned on the conference call. Should it be included? Furthermore, in the unlikely event of ICANN bankruptcy would ACs, SOs and a CCWG actually still legally "exist"? Kindest regards, Olivier On 17/04/2015 12:38, Avri Doria wrote:
hi,
the correct drive link.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WvBqtgXJ7rNrbN-5Tjf5-gi80aZ2oRYDtF_JLrET...
avri
On 16-Apr-15 22:39, Avri Doria wrote:
Hi,
A first draft of a possible separation mechanism is available <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pjRsvePXLHrK0zzFmMcavzvSXehds5FTCEUPPcc7...>
The drive document remains open for suggested edits and comments.
For convenience, have attached a word and pdf version
avri
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Olivier, Here is my understanding: Bankruptcy (by which I mean filing for bankruptcy in Bankruptcy Court) itself would not affect the existence of the SO/ACs and CCWG, which currently don't legally exist as separate entities anyway. One of the potential end results of a bankruptcy is a dissolution of an entity, with a winding down of the business, sale of assets and payments to creditors (by order of priority, and often at "pennies on the dollar"). That is the worst case scenario of bankruptcy. A dissolution could result in the end of ICANN as we know it. The better case in bankruptcy is a restructuring or reorganization of the bankrupt entity, allowing it to resolve its debts, restructure or eliminate obligations, and then emerge from bankruptcy as a "slimmed-down" healthier entity. It's up to board and management of a failing or "flailing" company to declare bankruptcy when the company is still healthy enough to file for a restructuring, rather than a dissolution. If the SO/ACs became unincorporated associations, the bankruptcy of ICANN would have no effect on the existence of the SO/ACs (which would then be legal persons). This is my understanding of the general rules as they relate to business entities. The rules of bankruptcy could be significantly different for non-profits, but probably would not change the direct answer to your question. Greg Shatan Caveat: I am not a bankruptcy lawyer and this is not legal advice. On Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 6:27 PM, Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond <ocl@gih.com> wrote:
Dear Avri,
the document does not include the case of ICANN bankruptcy which I mentioned on the conference call. Should it be included? Furthermore, in the unlikely event of ICANN bankruptcy would ACs, SOs and a CCWG actually still legally "exist"? Kindest regards,
Olivier
On 17/04/2015 12:38, Avri Doria wrote:
hi,
the correct drive link.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WvBqtgXJ7rNrbN-5Tjf5-gi80aZ2oRYDtF_JLrET...
avri
On 16-Apr-15 22:39, Avri Doria wrote:
Hi,
A first draft of a possible separation mechanism is available
<https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pjRsvePXLHrK0zzFmMcavzvSXehds5FTCEUPPcc7...> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pjRsvePXLHrK0zzFmMcavzvSXehds5FTCEUPPcc7...>
The drive document remains open for suggested edits and comments.
For convenience, have attached a word and pdf version
avri
------------------------------ [image: Avast logo] <http://www.avast.com/>
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Dear Greg, thanks for this info. Glad to see the component parts would still exist. I'd venture to say that whether Chapter 7 or Chapter 11 bankruptcy is invoked, it's probably better that IANA issues an RFP as it would signify that ICANN is in real trouble. Kindest regards, Olivier On 18/04/2015 01:12, Greg Shatan wrote:
Olivier,
Here is my understanding:
Bankruptcy (by which I mean filing for bankruptcy in Bankruptcy Court) itself would not affect the existence of the SO/ACs and CCWG, which currently don't legally exist as separate entities anyway. One of the potential end results of a bankruptcy is a dissolution of an entity, with a winding down of the business, sale of assets and payments to creditors (by order of priority, and often at "pennies on the dollar"). That is the worst case scenario of bankruptcy. A dissolution could result in the end of ICANN as we know it.
The better case in bankruptcy is a restructuring or reorganization of the bankrupt entity, allowing it to resolve its debts, restructure or eliminate obligations, and then emerge from bankruptcy as a "slimmed-down" healthier entity. It's up to board and management of a failing or "flailing" company to declare bankruptcy when the company is still healthy enough to file for a restructuring, rather than a dissolution.
If the SO/ACs became unincorporated associations, the bankruptcy of ICANN would have no effect on the existence of the SO/ACs (which would then be legal persons).
This is my understanding of the general rules as they relate to business entities. The rules of bankruptcy could be significantly different for non-profits, but probably would not change the direct answer to your question.
Greg Shatan
Caveat: I am not a bankruptcy lawyer and this is not legal advice.
On Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 6:27 PM, Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond <ocl@gih.com <mailto:ocl@gih.com>> wrote:
Dear Avri,
the document does not include the case of ICANN bankruptcy which I mentioned on the conference call. Should it be included? Furthermore, in the unlikely event of ICANN bankruptcy would ACs, SOs and a CCWG actually still legally "exist"? Kindest regards,
Olivier
On 17/04/2015 12:38, Avri Doria wrote:
hi,
the correct drive link.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WvBqtgXJ7rNrbN-5Tjf5-gi80aZ2oRYDtF_JLrET...
avri
On 16-Apr-15 22:39, Avri Doria wrote:
Hi,
A first draft of a possible separation mechanism is available <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pjRsvePXLHrK0zzFmMcavzvSXehds5FTCEUPPcc7...> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pjRsvePXLHrK0zzFmMcavzvSXehds5FTCEUPPcc7...>
The drive document remains open for suggested edits and comments.
For convenience, have attached a word and pdf version
avri
------------------------------------------------------------------------ Avast logo <http://www.avast.com/>
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com <http://www.avast.com/>
_______________________________________________ CWG-Stewardship mailing list CWG-Stewardship@icann.org <mailto:CWG-Stewardship@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cwg-stewardship
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-- Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, PhD http://www.gih.com/ocl.html
Olivier, I don't think IANA (or PTI) would be issuing an RFP. PTI is not the one issuing the (Post-Transition) IANA Functions Contract. Rather, ICANN is the one issuing the IANA Contract, so ICANN would be the party issuing a new RFP. Looked at another way, ICANN "owns'" the right to perform the IANA Functions and is granting PTI the right to do so under contract. Also, since PTI is a separate entity from ICANN a bankruptcy filing by ICANN should have no legal effect on PTI. (Note that, at least in the US, a non-profit cannot be the subject of an "involuntary" bankruptcy (one started by a third party)). A more interesting issue in bankruptcy would be what happens to the IANA Functions Contract. Can IANA terminate the agreement? (Almost certainly not.) Can ICANN reject the agreement (Probably.) Or whether the IANA Contract could provide that PTI gets separated from ICANN (i.e., ICANN would no longer be a member) but PTI would receive the right to perform the IANA Functions without a contract (i.e., PTI would "own" the IANA Function right rather than have the right by contract). (This is an advanced set of questions, but bankruptcy generally wants debtors to retain their assets, not lose them without compensation. So my gut reaction is "not likely.") Greg On Sun, Apr 19, 2015 at 11:39 AM, Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond <ocl@gih.com> wrote:
Dear Greg,
thanks for this info. Glad to see the component parts would still exist. I'd venture to say that whether Chapter 7 or Chapter 11 bankruptcy is invoked, it's probably better that IANA issues an RFP as it would signify that ICANN is in real trouble. Kindest regards,
Olivier
On 18/04/2015 01:12, Greg Shatan wrote:
Olivier,
Here is my understanding:
Bankruptcy (by which I mean filing for bankruptcy in Bankruptcy Court) itself would not affect the existence of the SO/ACs and CCWG, which currently don't legally exist as separate entities anyway. One of the potential end results of a bankruptcy is a dissolution of an entity, with a winding down of the business, sale of assets and payments to creditors (by order of priority, and often at "pennies on the dollar"). That is the worst case scenario of bankruptcy. A dissolution could result in the end of ICANN as we know it.
The better case in bankruptcy is a restructuring or reorganization of the bankrupt entity, allowing it to resolve its debts, restructure or eliminate obligations, and then emerge from bankruptcy as a "slimmed-down" healthier entity. It's up to board and management of a failing or "flailing" company to declare bankruptcy when the company is still healthy enough to file for a restructuring, rather than a dissolution.
If the SO/ACs became unincorporated associations, the bankruptcy of ICANN would have no effect on the existence of the SO/ACs (which would then be legal persons).
This is my understanding of the general rules as they relate to business entities. The rules of bankruptcy could be significantly different for non-profits, but probably would not change the direct answer to your question.
Greg Shatan
Caveat: I am not a bankruptcy lawyer and this is not legal advice.
On Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 6:27 PM, Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond <ocl@gih.com> wrote:
Dear Avri,
the document does not include the case of ICANN bankruptcy which I mentioned on the conference call. Should it be included? Furthermore, in the unlikely event of ICANN bankruptcy would ACs, SOs and a CCWG actually still legally "exist"? Kindest regards,
Olivier
On 17/04/2015 12:38, Avri Doria wrote:
hi,
the correct drive link.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WvBqtgXJ7rNrbN-5Tjf5-gi80aZ2oRYDtF_JLrET...
avri
On 16-Apr-15 22:39, Avri Doria wrote:
Hi,
A first draft of a possible separation mechanism is available
<https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pjRsvePXLHrK0zzFmMcavzvSXehds5FTCEUPPcc7...> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pjRsvePXLHrK0zzFmMcavzvSXehds5FTCEUPPcc7...>
The drive document remains open for suggested edits and comments.
For convenience, have attached a word and pdf version
avri
------------------------------ [image: Avast logo] <http://www.avast.com/>
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com
_______________________________________________ CWG-Stewardship mailing listCWG-Stewardship@icann.orghttps://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cwg-stewardship
------------------------------ [image: Avast logo] <http://www.avast.com/>
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com
_______________________________________________ CWG-Stewardship mailing listCWG-Stewardship@icann.orghttps://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cwg-stewardship
_______________________________________________ CWG-Stewardship mailing list CWG-Stewardship@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cwg-stewardship
-- Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, PhDhttp://www.gih.com/ocl.html
Hi, Simply put ICANN as an entity becomes the NTIA while PTI become the IANA operator/manager. Although I hope by ICANN you meant PRF giving the OKAY to issue a contract to PTI and if ICANN board doesn't bulge to PRF, I guess CCWG accountability mechanism comes into action. Regards sent from Google nexus 4 kindly excuse brevity and typos. On 21 Apr 2015 05:55, "Greg Shatan" <gregshatanipc@gmail.com> wrote:
Olivier,
I don't think IANA (or PTI) would be issuing an RFP. PTI is not the one issuing the (Post-Transition) IANA Functions Contract. Rather, ICANN is the one issuing the IANA Contract, so ICANN would be the party issuing a new RFP. Looked at another way, ICANN "owns'" the right to perform the IANA Functions and is granting PTI the right to do so under contract.
Also, since PTI is a separate entity from ICANN a bankruptcy filing by ICANN should have no legal effect on PTI. (Note that, at least in the US, a non-profit cannot be the subject of an "involuntary" bankruptcy (one started by a third party)).
A more interesting issue in bankruptcy would be what happens to the IANA Functions Contract. Can IANA terminate the agreement? (Almost certainly not.) Can ICANN reject the agreement (Probably.)
Or whether the IANA Contract could provide that PTI gets separated from ICANN (i.e., ICANN would no longer be a member) but PTI would receive the right to perform the IANA Functions without a contract (i.e., PTI would "own" the IANA Function right rather than have the right by contract). (This is an advanced set of questions, but bankruptcy generally wants debtors to retain their assets, not lose them without compensation. So my gut reaction is "not likely.")
Greg
On Sun, Apr 19, 2015 at 11:39 AM, Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond <ocl@gih.com> wrote:
Dear Greg,
thanks for this info. Glad to see the component parts would still exist. I'd venture to say that whether Chapter 7 or Chapter 11 bankruptcy is invoked, it's probably better that IANA issues an RFP as it would signify that ICANN is in real trouble. Kindest regards,
Olivier
On 18/04/2015 01:12, Greg Shatan wrote:
Olivier,
Here is my understanding:
Bankruptcy (by which I mean filing for bankruptcy in Bankruptcy Court) itself would not affect the existence of the SO/ACs and CCWG, which currently don't legally exist as separate entities anyway. One of the potential end results of a bankruptcy is a dissolution of an entity, with a winding down of the business, sale of assets and payments to creditors (by order of priority, and often at "pennies on the dollar"). That is the worst case scenario of bankruptcy. A dissolution could result in the end of ICANN as we know it.
The better case in bankruptcy is a restructuring or reorganization of the bankrupt entity, allowing it to resolve its debts, restructure or eliminate obligations, and then emerge from bankruptcy as a "slimmed-down" healthier entity. It's up to board and management of a failing or "flailing" company to declare bankruptcy when the company is still healthy enough to file for a restructuring, rather than a dissolution.
If the SO/ACs became unincorporated associations, the bankruptcy of ICANN would have no effect on the existence of the SO/ACs (which would then be legal persons).
This is my understanding of the general rules as they relate to business entities. The rules of bankruptcy could be significantly different for non-profits, but probably would not change the direct answer to your question.
Greg Shatan
Caveat: I am not a bankruptcy lawyer and this is not legal advice.
On Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 6:27 PM, Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond <ocl@gih.com> wrote:
Dear Avri,
the document does not include the case of ICANN bankruptcy which I mentioned on the conference call. Should it be included? Furthermore, in the unlikely event of ICANN bankruptcy would ACs, SOs and a CCWG actually still legally "exist"? Kindest regards,
Olivier
On 17/04/2015 12:38, Avri Doria wrote:
hi,
the correct drive link.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WvBqtgXJ7rNrbN-5Tjf5-gi80aZ2oRYDtF_JLrET...
avri
On 16-Apr-15 22:39, Avri Doria wrote:
Hi,
A first draft of a possible separation mechanism is available
<https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pjRsvePXLHrK0zzFmMcavzvSXehds5FTCEUPPcc7...> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pjRsvePXLHrK0zzFmMcavzvSXehds5FTCEUPPcc7...>
The drive document remains open for suggested edits and comments.
For convenience, have attached a word and pdf version
avri
------------------------------ [image: Avast logo] <http://www.avast.com/>
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com
_______________________________________________ CWG-Stewardship mailing listCWG-Stewardship@icann.orghttps://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cwg-stewardship
------------------------------ [image: Avast logo] <http://www.avast.com/>
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com
_______________________________________________ CWG-Stewardship mailing listCWG-Stewardship@icann.orghttps://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cwg-stewardship
_______________________________________________ CWG-Stewardship mailing list CWG-Stewardship@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cwg-stewardship
-- Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, PhDhttp://www.gih.com/ocl.html
_______________________________________________ CWG-Stewardship mailing list CWG-Stewardship@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cwg-stewardship
Seun, I think that's right, based on the role for the PRF we envision. But it is ICANN that formally must take the actions, once authorized to do so by PRF. Greg On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 1:41 AM, Seun Ojedeji <seun.ojedeji@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
Simply put ICANN as an entity becomes the NTIA while PTI become the IANA operator/manager.
Although I hope by ICANN you meant PRF giving the OKAY to issue a contract to PTI and if ICANN board doesn't bulge to PRF, I guess CCWG accountability mechanism comes into action.
Regards sent from Google nexus 4 kindly excuse brevity and typos. On 21 Apr 2015 05:55, "Greg Shatan" <gregshatanipc@gmail.com> wrote:
Olivier,
I don't think IANA (or PTI) would be issuing an RFP. PTI is not the one issuing the (Post-Transition) IANA Functions Contract. Rather, ICANN is the one issuing the IANA Contract, so ICANN would be the party issuing a new RFP. Looked at another way, ICANN "owns'" the right to perform the IANA Functions and is granting PTI the right to do so under contract.
Also, since PTI is a separate entity from ICANN a bankruptcy filing by ICANN should have no legal effect on PTI. (Note that, at least in the US, a non-profit cannot be the subject of an "involuntary" bankruptcy (one started by a third party)).
A more interesting issue in bankruptcy would be what happens to the IANA Functions Contract. Can IANA terminate the agreement? (Almost certainly not.) Can ICANN reject the agreement (Probably.)
Or whether the IANA Contract could provide that PTI gets separated from ICANN (i.e., ICANN would no longer be a member) but PTI would receive the right to perform the IANA Functions without a contract (i.e., PTI would "own" the IANA Function right rather than have the right by contract). (This is an advanced set of questions, but bankruptcy generally wants debtors to retain their assets, not lose them without compensation. So my gut reaction is "not likely.")
Greg
On Sun, Apr 19, 2015 at 11:39 AM, Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond <ocl@gih.com> wrote:
Dear Greg,
thanks for this info. Glad to see the component parts would still exist. I'd venture to say that whether Chapter 7 or Chapter 11 bankruptcy is invoked, it's probably better that IANA issues an RFP as it would signify that ICANN is in real trouble. Kindest regards,
Olivier
On 18/04/2015 01:12, Greg Shatan wrote:
Olivier,
Here is my understanding:
Bankruptcy (by which I mean filing for bankruptcy in Bankruptcy Court) itself would not affect the existence of the SO/ACs and CCWG, which currently don't legally exist as separate entities anyway. One of the potential end results of a bankruptcy is a dissolution of an entity, with a winding down of the business, sale of assets and payments to creditors (by order of priority, and often at "pennies on the dollar"). That is the worst case scenario of bankruptcy. A dissolution could result in the end of ICANN as we know it.
The better case in bankruptcy is a restructuring or reorganization of the bankrupt entity, allowing it to resolve its debts, restructure or eliminate obligations, and then emerge from bankruptcy as a "slimmed-down" healthier entity. It's up to board and management of a failing or "flailing" company to declare bankruptcy when the company is still healthy enough to file for a restructuring, rather than a dissolution.
If the SO/ACs became unincorporated associations, the bankruptcy of ICANN would have no effect on the existence of the SO/ACs (which would then be legal persons).
This is my understanding of the general rules as they relate to business entities. The rules of bankruptcy could be significantly different for non-profits, but probably would not change the direct answer to your question.
Greg Shatan
Caveat: I am not a bankruptcy lawyer and this is not legal advice.
On Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 6:27 PM, Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond <ocl@gih.com> wrote:
Dear Avri,
the document does not include the case of ICANN bankruptcy which I mentioned on the conference call. Should it be included? Furthermore, in the unlikely event of ICANN bankruptcy would ACs, SOs and a CCWG actually still legally "exist"? Kindest regards,
Olivier
On 17/04/2015 12:38, Avri Doria wrote:
hi,
the correct drive link.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WvBqtgXJ7rNrbN-5Tjf5-gi80aZ2oRYDtF_JLrET...
avri
On 16-Apr-15 22:39, Avri Doria wrote:
Hi,
A first draft of a possible separation mechanism is available
<https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pjRsvePXLHrK0zzFmMcavzvSXehds5FTCEUPPcc7...> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pjRsvePXLHrK0zzFmMcavzvSXehds5FTCEUPPcc7...>
The drive document remains open for suggested edits and comments.
For convenience, have attached a word and pdf version
avri
------------------------------ [image: Avast logo] <http://www.avast.com/>
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com
_______________________________________________ CWG-Stewardship mailing listCWG-Stewardship@icann.orghttps://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cwg-stewardship
------------------------------ [image: Avast logo] <http://www.avast.com/>
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com
_______________________________________________ CWG-Stewardship mailing listCWG-Stewardship@icann.orghttps://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cwg-stewardship
_______________________________________________ CWG-Stewardship mailing list CWG-Stewardship@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cwg-stewardship
-- Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, PhDhttp://www.gih.com/ocl.html
_______________________________________________ CWG-Stewardship mailing list CWG-Stewardship@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cwg-stewardship
Hi, First reason for it not being there: in the rush to get it done. I forgot. Beyond that, you ask if it should be. I don't know, I can see it both ways. - If ICANN goes bankrupt there will so many things going wrong, that the ide of doing an RFP seems unlikely, so I am not sure there would be much chance to exercise the separation mechanism, - on the other hand, if ICANN was going bankrupt that might be a reason for IANA to spin off to be free standing, so that it could keep providing services to its customers and not get dragged down with the mother-ship. Probably good to discuss adding it when we review it with the full CCWG. Sorry I forgot to include the bullet in the list of possible causes. avri On 17-Apr-15 18:27, Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond wrote:
Dear Avri,
the document does not include the case of ICANN bankruptcy which I mentioned on the conference call. Should it be included? Furthermore, in the unlikely event of ICANN bankruptcy would ACs, SOs and a CCWG actually still legally "exist"? Kindest regards,
Olivier
On 17/04/2015 12:38, Avri Doria wrote:
hi,
the correct drive link.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WvBqtgXJ7rNrbN-5Tjf5-gi80aZ2oRYDtF_JLrET...
avri
On 16-Apr-15 22:39, Avri Doria wrote:
Hi,
A first draft of a possible separation mechanism is available <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pjRsvePXLHrK0zzFmMcavzvSXehds5FTCEUPPcc7...>
The drive document remains open for suggested edits and comments.
For convenience, have attached a word and pdf version
avri
------------------------------------------------------------------------ Avast logo <http://www.avast.com/>
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com <http://www.avast.com/>
_______________________________________________ CWG-Stewardship mailing list CWG-Stewardship@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cwg-stewardship
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participants (4)
-
Avri Doria -
Greg Shatan -
Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond -
Seun Ojedeji