Forwarding Becky's message below since it was sent to the "bounce" address by mistake. From: "Burr, Becky" <Becky.Burr@neustar.biz> Date: Wednesday, October 29, 2014 1:38 PM To: "cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org" <cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org> Subject: Responding to Olivier Olivier, Thanks for this input. I¹d like to take a step back so that we are all on the same page. I hope everyone with take the time to review this post. I think we are making this work unnecessarily complicated. Under the straw man I¹ve suggested the ³Council² or ³Body² or whatever it is called is responsible for negotiating and interacting with IANA on technical issues. As defined by the IANA functions contract, IANA¹s naming-related tasks include the following: Root ZoneFile Change Request ManagementThe Contractor shall receive and process root zone filechange requests for TLDs as expeditiously as possible. This does not include a policy role at all. A new TLD is entered into the root only after the ICANN Board directs IANA to do that. Policy remains in ICANN, not the IANA function. Root Zone ³WHOIS² Change Request and Database Management The Contractor shall maintain, update, and make publicly accessible a Root Zone ³WHOIS² database with current and verified contact information for all TLD registry operators. Again, this involves no policy role. ICANN makes policy on WHOIS, not IANA. IANA just follows ICANN¹s orders. Delegation and Redelegation of Generic TLDs and Country Code TLDs. Again, the role is administrative and not policy making. IANA adds or removes a TLD from the root only at the direction of the ICANN Board. It is responsible for documenting that the action was consistent with established ICANN policy, but has no role in formulating that policy. Root ZoneAutomation--The Contractor shall work with NTIAand the Root Zone Maintainer, and collaborate with all interested and affected parties to deploy afully automated root zone managements system. This is an administrative/operations task, not a policy task. Root Domain Name System Security Extensions (DNSSEC) KeyManagementThe Contractor shall beresponsible forthe management ofthe root zone KeySigning Key (KSK), including generation, publication, and use for signing the Root Key set. Again, DNSSEC policy is set by ICANN, informed by all stakeholders, the SSAC, etc. IANA simply administers the ICANN policy. Customer Service Complaint Resolution Process (CSCRP)The Contractor shall work with NTIA and collaborate with all interested and affected parties to establish and implement a process for IANA function customers to submit complaints for timely resolution that follows industry best practice a and includes a reasonable time frame for resolution. This relates to complaints about IANA doing its technical job in a timely and competent fashion, not policy, which remains with ICANN. Perform Administrative Functions Associated WithRoot Zone Management. Facilitate andcoordinate the root zoneof the domain name system, andmaintain24hour-a-day/7days-a-weekoperationalcoverage. I would agree with you that a conflict of interest could emerge if IANA was developing policies for the registries, but that is not what¹s being proposed. Rather, all policy work would remain with ICANN subject to multi-stakeholder processes just as it is now. What conflict of interest arises in this situation? Registries will be in the best position to know whether or not IANA is processing name server changes in a timely fashion. Registries are harmed if it takes forever to do that. To the limited extent this kind of thing might impact end users, registries have all of the necessary incentives to get it fixed. In the early years of ICANN, when IANA was performing very poorly, registries were unhappy, but most of the rest of the ICANN community was not impacted in any way. Today, the ICANN board - NOT IANA - promises stakeholders that IANA will do its work in accordance with ICANN policy. If it doesn't, I am going to look to the ICANN Board and not the IANA staff for redress. I don¹t see a conflict of interest in registries performing an oversight role with respect to IANA¹s purely technical and operational functions. Remember, the IANA function contract specifies that IANA¹s role is technical and operational, not policy development. If IANA does something that is inconsistent with ICANN policy, I want the ICANN Board to be accountable. Again, to be clear, I am not unalterably opposed to having other parts of the community participate, but I don¹t understand why they would want to. Becky J. Beckwith Burr Neustar, Inc. / Deputy General Counsel and Chief Privacy Officer 1775 Pennsylvania Avenue NW, Washington, DC 20006 Office: + 1.202.533.2932 Mobile: +1.202.352.6367 / becky.burr@neustar.biz / www.neustar.biz
Dear Becky, thanks for detailing the various functions and going to depth showing none of the functions involve policy. To be frank, I am somehow baffled as to why end users would only be interested in policy and not operations. On 29/10/2014 17:45, Becky Burr wrote:
Again, to be clear, I am not unalterably opposed to having other parts of the community participate, but I don’t understand why they would want to.
It's that set of eyes. End users would feel a lot happier if they could watch... and warn. Kind regards, Olivier
+ 1 Elise Fra: cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org [mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org] På vegne av Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond Sendt: 29. oktober 2014 19:16 Til: cwg-stewardship@icann.org Emne: Re: [CWG-Stewardship] FW: Responding to Olivier Dear Becky, thanks for detailing the various functions and going to depth showing none of the functions involve policy. To be frank, I am somehow baffled as to why end users would only be interested in policy and not operations. On 29/10/2014 17:45, Becky Burr wrote: Again, to be clear, I am not unalterably opposed to having other parts of the community participate, but I don't understand why they would want to. It's that set of eyes. End users would feel a lot happier if they could watch... and warn. Kind regards, Olivier
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"I am not unalterably opposed to having other parts of the community participate, but I don’t understand why they would want to." I think that should be a subject of discussion with and between the "other parts of the community." If some of these other parts don't wish to participate that is one thing. However, we should not be pushing them (us) away from participation -- it could be misinterpreted as sort of "Move along, nothing to see here folks..." (which often means just the opposite). Greg On Wed, Oct 29, 2014 at 9:53 PM, Tracy Hackshaw @ Google < tracyhackshaw@gmail.com> wrote:
+1
Sent from BlackBerry Q10 *From: *Lindeberg, Elise *Sent: *Wednesday, October 29, 2014 8:02 PM *To: *Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond; cwg-stewardship@icann.org *Subject: *Re: [CWG-Stewardship] FW: Responding to Olivier
+ 1
Elise
*Fra:* cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org [mailto: cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org] *På vegne av* Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond *Sendt:* 29. oktober 2014 19:16 *Til:* cwg-stewardship@icann.org *Emne:* Re: [CWG-Stewardship] FW: Responding to Olivier
Dear Becky,
thanks for detailing the various functions and going to depth showing none of the functions involve policy. To be frank, I am somehow baffled as to why end users would only be interested in policy and not operations.
On 29/10/2014 17:45, Becky Burr wrote:
Again, to be clear, I am not unalterably opposed to having other parts of the community participate, but I don’t understand why they would want to.
It's that set of eyes. End users would feel a lot happier if they could watch... and warn. Kind regards,
Olivier
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i was told by an icann staffer that since rssac was not a signator to cog, we could only participate as observers…. /bill PO Box 12317 Marina del Rey, CA 90295 310.322.8102 On 29October2014Wednesday, at 20:05, Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc@gmail.com> wrote:
"I am not unalterably opposed to having other parts of the community participate, but I don’t understand why they would want to."
I think that should be a subject of discussion with and between the "other parts of the community." If some of these other parts don't wish to participate that is one thing. However, we should not be pushing them (us) away from participation -- it could be misinterpreted as sort of "Move along, nothing to see here folks..." (which often means just the opposite).
Greg
On Wed, Oct 29, 2014 at 9:53 PM, Tracy Hackshaw @ Google <tracyhackshaw@gmail.com> wrote: +1
Sent from BlackBerry Q10 From: Lindeberg, Elise Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2014 8:02 PM To: Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond; cwg-stewardship@icann.org Subject: Re: [CWG-Stewardship] FW: Responding to Olivier
+ 1
Elise
Fra: cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org [mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org] På vegne av Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond Sendt: 29. oktober 2014 19:16 Til: cwg-stewardship@icann.org Emne: Re: [CWG-Stewardship] FW: Responding to Olivier
Dear Becky,
thanks for detailing the various functions and going to depth showing none of the functions involve policy. To be frank, I am somehow baffled as to why end users would only be interested in policy and not operations.
On 29/10/2014 17:45, Becky Burr wrote:
Again, to be clear, I am not unalterably opposed to having other parts of the community participate, but I don’t understand why they would want to.
It's that set of eyes. End users would feel a lot happier if they could watch... and warn. Kind regards,
Olivier
_______________________________________________ CWG-Stewardship mailing list CWG-Stewardship@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cwg-stewardship
_______________________________________________ CWG-Stewardship mailing list CWG-Stewardship@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cwg-stewardship
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I think that Chuck’s suggestion (that this issue should be deferred until some of the other sections have been filled out) makes sense. At that point the community will be able to see in concrete terms what’s on the table and decide for themselves whether or not they can/want to participate J. Beckwith Burr Neustar, Inc. / Deputy General Counsel and Chief Privacy Officer 1775 Pennsylvania Avenue NW, Washington, DC 20006 Office: + 1.202.533.2932 Mobile: +1.202.352.6367 / becky.burr@neustar.biz<mailto:becky.burr@neustar.biz> / www.neustar.biz From: Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc@gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com>> Date: Wednesday, October 29, 2014 at 11:05 PM To: "Tracy Hackshaw @ Google" <tracyhackshaw@gmail.com<mailto:tracyhackshaw@gmail.com>> Cc: "cwg-stewardship@icann.org<mailto:cwg-stewardship@icann.org>" <cwg-stewardship@icann.org<mailto:cwg-stewardship@icann.org>>, "Lindeberg, Elise" <elise.lindeberg@npt.no<mailto:elise.lindeberg@npt.no>> Subject: Re: [CWG-Stewardship] FW: Responding to Olivier "I am not unalterably opposed to having other parts of the community participate, but I don’t understand why they would want to." I think that should be a subject of discussion with and between the "other parts of the community." If some of these other parts don't wish to participate that is one thing. However, we should not be pushing them (us) away from participation -- it could be misinterpreted as sort of "Move along, nothing to see here folks..." (which often means just the opposite). Greg On Wed, Oct 29, 2014 at 9:53 PM, Tracy Hackshaw @ Google <tracyhackshaw@gmail.com<mailto:tracyhackshaw@gmail.com>> wrote: +1 Sent from BlackBerry Q10 From: Lindeberg, Elise Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2014 8:02 PM To: Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond; cwg-stewardship@icann.org<mailto:cwg-stewardship@icann.org> Subject: Re: [CWG-Stewardship] FW: Responding to Olivier + 1 Elise Fra:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org<mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org<mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org>] På vegne av Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond Sendt: 29. oktober 2014 19:16 Til: cwg-stewardship@icann.org<mailto:cwg-stewardship@icann.org> Emne: Re: [CWG-Stewardship] FW: Responding to Olivier Dear Becky, thanks for detailing the various functions and going to depth showing none of the functions involve policy. To be frank, I am somehow baffled as to why end users would only be interested in policy and not operations. On 29/10/2014 17:45, Becky Burr wrote: Again, to be clear, I am not unalterably opposed to having other parts of the community participate, but I don’t understand why they would want to. It's that set of eyes. End users would feel a lot happier if they could watch... and warn. Kind regards, Olivier _______________________________________________ CWG-Stewardship mailing list CWG-Stewardship@icann.org<mailto:CWG-Stewardship@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cwg-stewardship<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mm.icann.org_mailman_listinfo_cwg-2Dstewardship&d=AAMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=VfZWB1gYJcxqD5PKhWPpv-9MiKk8vaJKmpKNGkAbhtA&s=uk1tHVWQXH8eIsYCx_WpvuThgVFcgF00DNij6LOQwPM&e=> _______________________________________________ CWG-Stewardship mailing list CWG-Stewardship@icann.org<mailto:CWG-Stewardship@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cwg-stewardship<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mm.icann.org_mailman_listinfo_cwg-2Dstewardship&d=AAMFaQ&c=MOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&r=62cJFOifzm6X_GRlaq8Mo8TjDmrxdYahOP8WDDkMr4k&m=VfZWB1gYJcxqD5PKhWPpv-9MiKk8vaJKmpKNGkAbhtA&s=uk1tHVWQXH8eIsYCx_WpvuThgVFcgF00DNij6LOQwPM&e=>
Olivier, and all the +1-ers, are ignoring the point that was made about the risks of circumventing or vetoing community policy by politicizing the operational and technical functions via this kind of ‘oversight’ Would you care to address this, please? From: cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org [mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Hackshaw @ Google Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2014 9:54 PM To: Lindeberg, Elise; Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond; cwg-stewardship@icann.org Subject: Re: [CWG-Stewardship] FW: Responding to Olivier +1 Sent from BlackBerry Q10 From: Lindeberg, Elise Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2014 8:02 PM To: Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond; cwg-stewardship@icann.org<mailto:cwg-stewardship@icann.org> Subject: Re: [CWG-Stewardship] FW: Responding to Olivier + 1 Elise Fra: cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org<mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org] På vegne av Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond Sendt: 29. oktober 2014 19:16 Til: cwg-stewardship@icann.org<mailto:cwg-stewardship@icann.org> Emne: Re: [CWG-Stewardship] FW: Responding to Olivier Dear Becky, thanks for detailing the various functions and going to depth showing none of the functions involve policy. To be frank, I am somehow baffled as to why end users would only be interested in policy and not operations. On 29/10/2014 17:45, Becky Burr wrote: Again, to be clear, I am not unalterably opposed to having other parts of the community participate, but I don’t understand why they would want to. It's that set of eyes. End users would feel a lot happier if they could watch... and warn. Kind regards, Olivier
I am neither Olivier nor a +1, but I'll try. First, the process IS politicized. All you are doing is ensuring that only one faction has a voice. Yes, as in political systems, that "simplifies things" but does not necessarily make it better. This entire discussion reminds me of the statement attributed to the then CEO of General Motors - "What is good for General Motors is good for the Country (ie the USA)", a statement to which can rationalize all sorts of corporate misbehaviour seen in later year. In this case, "What is good for Registries is good for the Internet". It will certainly be true much of the time, but I think it presumptuous to assume that this will be the case in all future instances. There may well be cases that in the future, that there is a policy that is decided governing how IANA is to operate that does not meet with the complete satisfaction of registries. That is the nature of a multistakeholder policy process. Second, if the policies, contracts, agreements, etc are clear, there should not be a lot of judgement call involved in this overseeing. And when there is, it indicates a problem that needs to be rectified at the policy/contractual level. Alan At 29/10/2014 11:47 PM, Milton L Mueller wrote:
Olivier, and all the +1-ers, are ignoring the point that was made about the risks of circumventing or vetoing community policy by politicizing the operational and technical functions via this kind of âoversightâ
Would you care to address this, please?
From: cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org [mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Hackshaw @ Google Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2014 9:54 PM To: Lindeberg, Elise; Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond; cwg-stewardship@icann.org Subject: Re: [CWG-Stewardship] FW: Responding to Olivier
+1
Sent from BlackBerry Q10 From: Lindeberg, Elise Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2014 8:02 PM To: Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond; <mailto:cwg-stewardship@icann.org>cwg-stewardship@icann.org Subject: Re: [CWG-Stewardship] FW: Responding to Olivier
+ 1
Elise
Fra: <mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org>cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org [mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org] PÃ¥ vegne av Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond Sendt: 29. oktober 2014 19:16 Til: <mailto:cwg-stewardship@icann.org>cwg-stewardship@icann.org Emne: Re: [CWG-Stewardship] FW: Responding to Olivier
Dear Becky,
thanks for detailing the various functions and going to depth showing none of the functions involve policy. To be frank, I am somehow baffled as to why end users would only be interested in policy and not operations. On 29/10/2014 17:45, Becky Burr wrote: Again, to be clear, I am not unalterably opposed to having other parts of the community participate, but I donât understand why they would want to.
It's that set of eyes. End users would feel a lot happier if they could watch... and warn. Kind regards,
Olivier
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Alan, I think your last sentence is the key point. Policy differences should be ‘rectified at the policy/contractual level’. That is a different level in the processes for gTLDs and ccTLDs than when the IANA functions operator is actually performing its services. I can’t speak for Milton, but I think he is focusing on the very specific tasks that the IANA functions operator does after the policy differences have been resolved. One of the IANA functions enumerated in the IANA functions contract is “verifying that ICANN followed its own policy framework including specific documentation demonstrating how the process provided the opportunity for input from relevant stakeholders and was supportive of the global public interest”. I believe that this will be easier to discuss after the subgroup finishes its work on RFP Section 2A, which I hope will be before the next meeting. Chuck From: cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org [mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Alan Greenberg Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2014 6:34 AM To: Milton L Mueller; cwg-stewardship@icann.org Subject: Re: [CWG-Stewardship] FW: Responding to Olivier I am neither Olivier nor a +1, but I'll try. First, the process IS politicized. All you are doing is ensuring that only one faction has a voice. Yes, as in political systems, that "simplifies things" but does not necessarily make it better. This entire discussion reminds me of the statement attributed to the then CEO of General Motors - "What is good for General Motors is good for the Country (ie the USA)", a statement to which can rationalize all sorts of corporate misbehaviour seen in later year. In this case, "What is good for Registries is good for the Internet". It will certainly be true much of the time, but I think it presumptuous to assume that this will be the case in all future instances. There may well be cases that in the future, that there is a policy that is decided governing how IANA is to operate that does not meet with the complete satisfaction of registries. That is the nature of a multistakeholder policy process. Second, if the policies, contracts, agreements, etc are clear, there should not be a lot of judgement call involved in this overseeing. And when there is, it indicates a problem that needs to be rectified at the policy/contractual level. Alan At 29/10/2014 11:47 PM, Milton L Mueller wrote: Olivier, and all the +1-ers, are ignoring the point that was made about the risks of circumventing or vetoing community policy by politicizing the operational and technical functions via this kind of ‘oversight’ Would you care to address this, please? From: cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org<mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org> [ mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Hackshaw @ Google Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2014 9:54 PM To: Lindeberg, Elise; Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond; cwg-stewardship@icann.org<mailto:cwg-stewardship@icann.org> Subject: Re: [CWG-Stewardship] FW: Responding to Olivier +1 Sent from BlackBerry Q10 From: Lindeberg, Elise Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2014 8:02 PM To: Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond; cwg-stewardship@icann.org<mailto:cwg-stewardship@icann.org> Subject: Re: [CWG-Stewardship] FW: Responding to Olivier + 1 Elise Fra: cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org<mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org> [ mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org] PÃ¥ vegne av Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond Sendt: 29. oktober 2014 19:16 Til: cwg-stewardship@icann.org<mailto:cwg-stewardship@icann.org> Emne: Re: [CWG-Stewardship] FW: Responding to Olivier Dear Becky, thanks for detailing the various functions and going to depth showing none of the functions involve policy. To be frank, I am somehow baffled as to why end users would only be interested in policy and not operations. On 29/10/2014 17:45, Becky Burr wrote: Again, to be clear, I am not unalterably opposed to having other parts of the community participate, but I don’t understand why they would want to. It's that set of eyes. End users would feel a lot happier if they could watch... and warn. Kind regards, Olivier _______________________________________________ CWG-Stewardship mailing list CWG-Stewardship@icann.org<mailto:CWG-Stewardship@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cwg-stewardship
Agree with Chuck that Allan's second point is key. It is not at the level of the IANA functions that policy issues will be resolved. If the policies are developed through agreed bottom-up transparent processes and are appropriately followed there should be very little need for oversight of the IANA functions. (I think we all agree that it is largely neutral and clerical - but important - function.) The "oversight" or accountability ensuring mechanisms must be with the policy making entities, in other words ICANN. We should be wary of overloading the IANA functions with "oversight" - if it is unnecessary it could be burdensome indeed detrimental to the performance of the function itself. Matthew On 10/30/2014 11:52 AM, Gomes, Chuck wrote:
Alan,
I think your last sentence is the key point. Policy differences should be 'rectified at the policy/contractual level'. That is a different level in the processes for gTLDs and ccTLDs than when the IANA functions operator is actually performing its services. I can't speak for Milton, but I think he is focusing on the very specific tasks that the IANA functions operator does after the policy differences have been resolved. One of the IANA functions enumerated in the IANA functions contract is "verifying that ICANN followed its own policy framework including specific documentation demonstrating how the process provided the opportunity for input from relevant stakeholders and was supportive of the global public interest".
I believe that this will be easier to discuss after the subgroup finishes its work on RFP Section 2A, which I hope will be before the next meeting.
Chuck
*From:*cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org [mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Alan Greenberg *Sent:* Thursday, October 30, 2014 6:34 AM *To:* Milton L Mueller; cwg-stewardship@icann.org *Subject:* Re: [CWG-Stewardship] FW: Responding to Olivier
I am neither Olivier nor a +1, but I'll try.
First, the process IS politicized. All you are doing is ensuring that only one faction has a voice. Yes, as in political systems, that "simplifies things" but does not necessarily make it better. This entire discussion reminds me of the statement attributed to the then CEO of General Motors - "What is good for General Motors is good for the Country (ie the USA)", a statement to which can rationalize all sorts of corporate misbehaviour seen in later year. In this case, "What is good for Registries is good for the Internet". It will certainly be true much of the time, but I think it presumptuous to assume that this will be the case in all future instances. There may well be cases that in the future, that there is a policy that is decided governing how IANA is to operate that does not meet with the complete satisfaction of registries. That is the nature of a multistakeholder policy process.
Second, if the policies, contracts, agreements, etc are clear, there should not be a lot of judgement call involved in this overseeing. And when there is, it indicates a problem that needs to be rectified at the policy/contractual level.
Alan
At 29/10/2014 11:47 PM, Milton L Mueller wrote:
Olivier, and all the +1-ers, are ignoring the point that was made about the risks of circumventing or vetoing community policy by politicizing the operational and technical functions via this kind of âEUR~oversightâEUR^(TM)
Would you care to address this, please?
*From:* cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org <mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org <mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org>] *On Behalf Of *Tracy Hackshaw @ Google *Sent:* Wednesday, October 29, 2014 9:54 PM *To:* Lindeberg, Elise; Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond; cwg-stewardship@icann.org <mailto:cwg-stewardship@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [CWG-Stewardship] FW: Responding to Olivier
+1
Sent from BlackBerry Q10 *From: *Lindeberg, Elise *Sent: *Wednesday, October 29, 2014 8:02 PM *To: *Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond; cwg-stewardship@icann.org <mailto:cwg-stewardship@icann.org> *Subject: *Re: [CWG-Stewardship] FW: Responding to Olivier
+ 1
Elise
*Fra:* cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org <mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org <mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org>] *PÃ¥ vegne av* Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond *Sendt:* 29. oktober 2014 19:16 *Til:* cwg-stewardship@icann.org <mailto:cwg-stewardship@icann.org> *Emne:* Re: [CWG-Stewardship] FW: Responding to Olivier
Dear Becky,
thanks for detailing the various functions and going to depth showing none of the functions involve policy. To be frank, I am somehow baffled as to why end users would only be interested in policy and not operations. On 29/10/2014 17:45, Becky Burr wrote:
Again, to be clear, I am not unalterably opposed to having other parts of the community participate, but I donâEUR^(TM)t understand why they would want to.
It's that set of eyes. End users would feel a lot happier if they could watch... and warn. Kind regards,
Olivier
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-- Matthew Shears Director - Global Internet Policy and Human Rights Center for Democracy & Technology (CDT) mshears@cdt.org + 44 771 247 2987
On Oct 30, 2014, at 8:04 AM, Matthew Shears <mshears@cdt.org> wrote:
Agree with Chuck that Allan's second point is key. It is not at the level of the IANA functions that policy issues will be resolved. If the policies are developed through agreed bottom-up transparent processes and are appropriately followed there should be very little need for oversight of the IANA functions. (I think we all agree that it is largely neutral and clerical - but important - function.) The "oversight" or accountability ensuring mechanisms must be with the policy making entities, in other words ICANN. We should be wary of overloading the IANA functions with "oversight" - if it is unnecessary it could be burdensome indeed detrimental to the performance of the function itself.
Matthew
Agree..
Alan, Let me clarify what I mean by politicization. And let me use your own analogy of hiring an electrician to fix the wiring in your house. Yes, if you hire an electrician you have the right and the duty to engage in “oversight” as s/he does the work. What some people seem to be proposing here, however is that both the decision which electrician to hire and the oversight of that work should be done not by you, but by a broadly representative neighborhood committee (because, you know, if your house burns down theirs might be affected ;-) And once that committee is in place, it just so happens that one of the members insists that you use electrician X, who happens to be his brother in law. Another committee member, a Labor party member, complains that the electrical company you want to use doesn’t use enough employees and there ought to be two electricians, not one, on the job. But he gets into a big argument with the Conservative party member of the committee (who of course had to be included to balance representation). Another one doesn’t know anything about wiring but has just read a magazine article in Popular Science and insists that certain experimental techniques he read about be used, even though the guy doing the work has never used them before. And so on. The point is ‘broadening representation’ sounds good but oftentimes all it really does it bring a lot of people into the picture with personal or political agendas that have nothing to do with the basic task at hand. The incentives and issues of the committee members can easily be misaligned with the needs of the person directly affected by the work. Of course this is just an analogy used for illustrative purposes and doesn’t prove anything. But I think it clarifies my concerns about politicization. We really don’t want to make the IANA implementation become a second policy development process, and the emphasis on representation and inclusion in the oversight of these functions is almost certain to do that, in my opinion. From: Alan Greenberg [mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca] Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2014 6:34 AM To: Milton L Mueller; cwg-stewardship@icann.org Subject: Re: [CWG-Stewardship] FW: Responding to Olivier I am neither Olivier nor a +1, but I'll try. First, the process IS politicized. All you are doing is ensuring that only one faction has a voice. Yes, as in political systems, that "simplifies things" but does not necessarily make it better. This entire discussion reminds me of the statement attributed to the then CEO of General Motors - "What is good for General Motors is good for the Country (ie the USA)", a statement to which can rationalize all sorts of corporate misbehaviour seen in later year. In this case, "What is good for Registries is good for the Internet". It will certainly be true much of the time, but I think it presumptuous to assume that this will be the case in all future instances. There may well be cases that in the future, that there is a policy that is decided governing how IANA is to operate that does not meet with the complete satisfaction of registries. That is the nature of a multistakeholder policy process. Second, if the policies, contracts, agreements, etc are clear, there should not be a lot of judgement call involved in this overseeing. And when there is, it indicates a problem that needs to be rectified at the policy/contractual level. Alan At 29/10/2014 11:47 PM, Milton L Mueller wrote: Olivier, and all the +1-ers, are ignoring the point that was made about the risks of circumventing or vetoing community policy by politicizing the operational and technical functions via this kind of ‘oversight’ Would you care to address this, please? From: cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org<mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org> [ mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Hackshaw @ Google Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2014 9:54 PM To: Lindeberg, Elise; Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond; cwg-stewardship@icann.org<mailto:cwg-stewardship@icann.org> Subject: Re: [CWG-Stewardship] FW: Responding to Olivier +1 Sent from BlackBerry Q10 From: Lindeberg, Elise Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2014 8:02 PM To: Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond; cwg-stewardship@icann.org<mailto:cwg-stewardship@icann.org> Subject: Re: [CWG-Stewardship] FW: Responding to Olivier + 1 Elise Fra: cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org<mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org> [ mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org] PÃ¥ vegne av Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond Sendt: 29. oktober 2014 19:16 Til: cwg-stewardship@icann.org<mailto:cwg-stewardship@icann.org> Emne: Re: [CWG-Stewardship] FW: Responding to Olivier Dear Becky, thanks for detailing the various functions and going to depth showing none of the functions involve policy. To be frank, I am somehow baffled as to why end users would only be interested in policy and not operations. On 29/10/2014 17:45, Becky Burr wrote: Again, to be clear, I am not unalterably opposed to having other parts of the community participate, but I don’t understand why they would want to. It's that set of eyes. End users would feel a lot happier if they could watch... and warn. Kind regards, Olivier _______________________________________________ CWG-Stewardship mailing list CWG-Stewardship@icann.org<mailto:CWG-Stewardship@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cwg-stewardship
Thanks Milton, You have given the perfect example of why I try not to use analogies in this kind of discussion (btw, it was Becky's, not mine). As has been suggested, I am happy to wait until SG2a completes its work. In the meantime, it might be useful if you (who clearly understands this issue) would come up with some scenarios how the oversight only by the affected parties would work. Not the easy case where a homogeneous set of Rys calls IANA out, they say Oops, and fix things, but more complex ones where not all oversight group members agree that there is a problem. Alan At 30/10/2014 11:11 AM, Milton L Mueller wrote:
Alan, Let me clarify what I mean by politicization. And let me use your own analogy of hiring an electrician to fix the wiring in your house.
Yes, if you hire an electrician you have the right and the duty to engage in âoversightâ as s/he does the work. What some people seem to be proposing here, however is that both the decision which electrician to hire and the oversight of that work should be done not by you, but by a broadly representative neighborhood committee (because, you know, if your house burns down theirs might be affected ;-)
And once that committee is in place, it just so happens that one of the members insists that you use electrician X, who happens to be his brother in law. Another committee member, a Labor party member, complains that the electrical company you want to use doesnât use enough employees and there ought to be two electricians, not one, on the job. But he gets into a big argument with the Conservative party member of the committee (who of course had to be included to balance representation). Another one doesnât know anything about wiring but has just read a magazine article in Popular Science and insists that certain experimental techniques he read about be used, even though the guy doing the work has never used them before. And so on.
The point is âbroadening representationâ sounds good but oftentimes all it really does it bring a lot of people into the picture with personal or political agendas that have nothing to do with the basic task at hand. The incentives and issues of the committee members can easily be misaligned with the needs of the person directly affected by the work.
Of course this is just an analogy used for illustrative purposes and doesnât prove anything. But I think it clarifies my concerns about politicization. We really donât want to make the IANA implementation become a second policy development process, and the emphasis on representation and inclusion in the oversight of these functions is almost certain to do that, in my opinion.
From: Alan Greenberg [mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca] Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2014 6:34 AM To: Milton L Mueller; cwg-stewardship@icann.org Subject: Re: [CWG-Stewardship] FW: Responding to Olivier
I am neither Olivier nor a +1, but I'll try.
First, the process IS politicized. All you are doing is ensuring that only one faction has a voice. Yes, as in political systems, that "simplifies things" but does not necessarily make it better. This entire discussion reminds me of the statement attributed to the then CEO of General Motors - "What is good for General Motors is good for the Country (ie the USA)", a statement to which can rationalize all sorts of corporate misbehaviour seen in later year. In this case, "What is good for Registries is good for the Internet". It will certainly be true much of the time, but I think it presumptuous to assume that this will be the case in all future instances. There may well be cases that in the future, that there is a policy that is decided governing how IANA is to operate that does not meet with the complete satisfaction of registries. That is the nature of a multistakeholder policy process.
Second, if the policies, contracts, agreements, etc are clear, there should not be a lot of judgement call involved in this overseeing. And when there is, it indicates a problem that needs to be rectified at the policy/contractual level.
Alan
At 29/10/2014 11:47 PM, Milton L Mueller wrote:
Olivier, and all the +1-ers, are ignoring the point that was made about the risks of circumventing or vetoing community policy by politicizing the operational and technical functions via this kind of âoversightâ Would you care to address this, please?
From: <mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org>cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org [ mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Hackshaw @ Google Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2014 9:54 PM To: Lindeberg, Elise; Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond; <mailto:cwg-stewardship@icann.org>cwg-stewardship@icann.org Subject: Re: [CWG-Stewardship] FW: Responding to Olivier
+1
Sent from BlackBerry Q10 From: Lindeberg, Elise Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2014 8:02 PM To: Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond; <mailto:cwg-stewardship@icann.org>cwg-stewardship@icann.org Subject: Re: [CWG-Stewardship] FW: Responding to Olivier
+ 1
Elise
Fra: <mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org>cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org [ mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org] PÃÂ¥ vegne av Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond Sendt: 29. oktober 2014 19:16 Til: <mailto:cwg-stewardship@icann.org>cwg-stewardship@icann.org Emne: Re: [CWG-Stewardship] FW: Responding to Olivier
Dear Becky,
thanks for detailing the various functions and going to depth showing none of the functions involve policy. To be frank, I am somehow baffled as to why end users would only be interested in policy and not operations. On 29/10/2014 17:45, Becky Burr wrote: Again, to be clear, I am not unalterably opposed to having other parts of the community participate, but I donât ut understand why they would want to.
It's that set of eyes. End users would feel a lot happier if they could watch... and warn. Kind regards,
Olivier
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On Thu, Oct 30, 2014 at 4:11 PM, Milton L Mueller <mueller@syr.edu> wrote:
Alan,
Let me clarify what I mean by politicization. And let me use your own analogy of hiring an electrician to fix the wiring in your house.
Yes, if you hire an electrician you have the right and the duty to engage in “oversight” as s/he does the work. What some people seem to be proposing here, however is that both the decision which electrician to hire and the oversight of that work should be done not by you, but by a broadly representative neighborhood committee (because, you know, if your house burns down theirs might be affected ;-)
I think the example of Alan hiring an electrician for his house may not be as encompassing enough for the subject matter since Alan would normally have ownership of his household. Try this: Alan wanting to fix a transformer that is used by the entire neighbourhood and after consulting with an electrician, he was made to realise that the transformer was okay but the solution required was to share the load by ensuring that each member of the neighbourhood does not exceed certain voltage level. I don't think determining such process and the oversight thereof will be done by Alan alone. Cheers!
*From:* Alan Greenberg [mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca] *Sent:* Thursday, October 30, 2014 6:34 AM *To:* Milton L Mueller; cwg-stewardship@icann.org
*Subject:* Re: [CWG-Stewardship] FW: Responding to Olivier
I am neither Olivier nor a +1, but I'll try.
First, the process IS politicized. All you are doing is ensuring that only one faction has a voice. Yes, as in political systems, that "simplifies things" but does not necessarily make it better. This entire discussion reminds me of the statement attributed to the then CEO of General Motors - "What is good for General Motors is good for the Country (ie the USA)", a statement to which can rationalize all sorts of corporate misbehaviour seen in later year. In this case, "What is good for Registries is good for the Internet". It will certainly be true much of the time, but I think it presumptuous to assume that this will be the case in all future instances. There may well be cases that in the future, that there is a policy that is decided governing how IANA is to operate that does not meet with the complete satisfaction of registries. That is the nature of a multistakeholder policy process.
Second, if the policies, contracts, agreements, etc are clear, there should not be a lot of judgement call involved in this overseeing. And when there is, it indicates a problem that needs to be rectified at the policy/contractual level.
Alan
At 29/10/2014 11:47 PM, Milton L Mueller wrote:
Olivier, and all the +1-ers, are ignoring the point that was made about the risks of circumventing or vetoing community policy by politicizing the operational and technical functions via this kind of ‘oversight’
Would you care to address this, please?
*From:* cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org [ mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org <cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org>] *On Behalf Of *Tracy Hackshaw @ Google *Sent:* Wednesday, October 29, 2014 9:54 PM *To:* Lindeberg, Elise; Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond; cwg-stewardship@icann.org *Subject:* Re: [CWG-Stewardship] FW: Responding to Olivier
+1
Sent from BlackBerry Q10 *From: *Lindeberg, Elise *Sent: *Wednesday, October 29, 2014 8:02 PM *To: *Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond; cwg-stewardship@icann.org *Subject: *Re: [CWG-Stewardship] FW: Responding to Olivier
+ 1
Elise
*Fra:* cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org [ mailto:cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org <cwg-stewardship-bounces@icann.org>] *PÃ¥ vegne av* Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond *Sendt:* 29. oktober 2014 19:16 *Til:* cwg-stewardship@icann.org *Emne:* Re: [CWG-Stewardship] FW: Responding to Olivier
Dear Becky,
thanks for detailing the various functions and going to depth showing none of the functions involve policy. To be frank, I am somehow baffled as to why end users would only be interested in policy and not operations. On 29/10/2014 17:45, Becky Burr wrote:
Again, to be clear, I am not unalterably opposed to having other parts of the community participate, but I don’t understand why they would want to.
It's that set of eyes. End users would feel a lot happier if they could watch... and warn. Kind regards,
Olivier
_______________________________________________ CWG-Stewardship mailing list CWG-Stewardship@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cwg-stewardship
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-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Seun Ojedeji,Federal University Oye-Ekitiweb: http://www.fuoye.edu.ng <http://www.fuoye.edu.ng> Mobile: +2348035233535**alt email: <http://goog_1872880453>seun.ojedeji@fuoye.edu.ng <seun.ojedeji@fuoye.edu.ng>* The key to understanding is humility - my view !
participants (13)
-
Alan Greenberg -
Burr, Becky -
Gomes, Chuck -
Grace Abuhamad -
Greg Shatan -
Lindeberg, Elise -
manning bill -
Matthew Shears -
Milton L Mueller -
Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond -
Robert Guerra -
Seun Ojedeji -
Tracy Hackshaw @ Google