Re: [EURO-Discuss] Regional advice on France@Large application needed
Dear Wolf, First point, I do not want to create a contentious issue between us and ICANN while we have _many_ other priorities preparing the World Internet Week de Paris (http://wiw.de-paris.info). So, these mails will not be copied immediately on our general list which has now 23 members, nor to the 700 Members (including ICANN Board Member) FGI list. However, your mails did leaked and the first questions are coming in. For seven years I am used to explain people round the world and in France that ICANN does not disregard the @large, just ingnores them. Do not be afraid, I will manage to explain them that ALAC does better. But I cannot know what people will do with it. At 01:26 29/04/2008, Wolf Ludwig wrote:
Dear Jefsey, as I mentioned before in (one of) my mails to Vittorio, I don't want to make my opinion regarding your application to a personal affair. As I mentioned before as well, there were several people mostly independent and unbiased - looking at your application and showing up with almost the same questions again. This is anything else but a conspiracy, perhaps a surprising coincidence.
As it seems to me after today's discussion, we cannot come up with an unanimous position from the EURALO board and membership at the very moment and until April 30 (deadline of the ALAC decision after consultation with the RALO concerned). Therefore let me ask you the following questions â" what you partly suggested (if I understood it well) in your response:
Before answering this, I need to understand better an organisation we are just joining. Let me first ask you what is your job in this case, what is the role of the people in copy. You are not on the published ALAC lists. I went to the ICANN site and looked for a few names to understand who (except Cheryl) are the people you involve in Cc, who are the four decision makers and the three members of the Staff you discuss. All this sounds pure rigmarole to me, when you probably try to follow one of the many bureaucratic ICANN procedures. - Ludwig Wolf = one (your application) - france@large = four (not ours yet) - Langdon-Orr = nineteen. - Massimilino Minisci = None. - Jefsey, Jefsey Morfin or JFC = 1743. This may explain me some of the oddities I do not understand. May be, could you please explain what is exactly the internal procedure you follow.
1- Could you, given the fact that your application is controversial, accept a prolongation of the ALAC approval deadline by let's say two months or the end of the 32nd ICANN Public Meeting in Paris? This would give us a chance to sit together in Paris and to re-discuss all the open and unclear questions and inconsistencies regarding your application.
Let me clarify. I revived france@large after so many years of ICANN disinterest in what we consider @larges are. This is only to try to help ICANN stabilize better in the societal and cultural changes we are involved in. france@larege being an ALS is of interest to ICANN only if we welcome ICANN in Paris as an ALS. We registered for that in due time. We _do_not_understand_ all this fuss. I must say that I only take it as personal, what I am used to. I am also used to politically win. But I do not see the reasons of the fight.
2- Could you, in the meantime, forward all supplementary information needed to the ICANN staff in charge or the EURALO board to better answer the existing questions and clarify inconsistencies?
Let me kindly ask you if you are pulling my leg? At the present time I know no question. I just learned today about a circulated document which is purely absurd. It only shows that author does not know about mailman, nor about the law.
3- Could we sort out controversial points regarding France@Large's application, in the time frame mentioned, before referring to other instances (such as Ombudsman or media)?
Please do not call "inconsistent" or "controversial" what only reflect lacks in the Staff review of our registration. I have no intent, if we can avoid it, on such a trivial issue, to bother Frank Fowlie and the Board. But you have to realise that france@large is known to journalists in France as the odd people who want to help the ICANN transition. And I am also known. We have started the http://wikicann.org site to document this help and inform the press, media and public independently. It was very recently started : you can go and check that it was already accessed 2300 times. These are not things prepared at the last minute. I am not the master of what will be published when people discover your mails.
As you may know, the RALO concerned can only express its opinion and recommendation on an application and ALAC will take the decision. Therefore itâs on ALAC to decide on any prolongation in this matter but I wanted to sort out the options of a potential solution in the interest of the RALO concerned.
As france@large, I am only concerned by the interest of ICANN and of our members. This necessarily demands a war/cooperation decision of ICANN to be reached before two weeks. I am certainly ready to provide answers to professional questions, but I have difficulties understanding what I have not provided yet in our file and on the phone. I certainly understand how it is embrassing. All this seems to be new both to us and to ICANN/ALAC. Let just address it professionnally. It should only be smooth. (Just for your information I am moving my office and I have most of my stuff packed). Cheers! jfc
I would appreciate your answers to the questions I raised. Thanks and best regards, Wolf
JFC Morfin wrote Mon, 28 Apr 2008 21:20:
:-) Interesting.
I sent the "application". It was not acknowledged. Ten days later on I sent a mail back. And I was told that application was received. I noted several times that I had no news. Nick mailed me he would send a mail. But bever did. Then eventually Frederic called not being interested in knowing me nor our history and organisation but why we had no budget, and having an urgent call. Then he called for a longer time, but this nice fellow is still young in the organisation. Then he wanted to call our execom people. But never did. Someone told him ICANN was the e-UN of the future.
Then I see today a form completed by Massimiliano. Who ever Massimiliano is, I do not know him (so many new people in ICANN). The very first thing he should have done would be to forward the document to me, so we could discuss all its errors. You may also realise that as the eldest @large incorporated organisation, and as a pioneer of the Internet myself, I find this rather ...., ...., and hurting.
Now, I have a question. Is ALAC real? What do you want me to do to answer the questions you never raised ? Fly to Australia. jfc
PS. You right, I explained Frederic that this will only be a case for Brother Fowley. BTW if some wants to be sure we exist, we can come a "few" of us at the Paris meeting, but then you have to select a larger room. For the time being I do not copy this on the mailing list not to upset our Members. But I said that I needed an answer under 3 months since I applied, because I told them in February we would.
At 20:07 28/04/2008, Vittorio Bertola wrote:
Wolf Ludwig ha scritto:
In any case, in the application that was circulated to the EURALO list on March 5 I really see no grounds for rejection. If there are other documents, please forward them to the list.
Attached please find the DD form dated March 27 which was the basis of our discussions and considerations of the given case.
Ok, so we have an interesting case in which the staff's due diligence claims things that are opposite to what the applicant says. From this due diligence form I see one fundamental question: are the 17 members real and active, or not? (since, according to the due diligence, there is no membership list and no mailing list, and the Web page seems to have been created just recently)
I see also a point about the secretariat being the only managing entity, but that's normal as long as the secretariat is elective (acting like a Board). It's not normal if the secretariat is not elected by the members. So what's the case?
Ciao, -- vb. Vittorio Bertola - vb [a] bertola.eu <-------- --------> finally with a new website at http://bertola.eu/ <--------
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Dear Jefsey, JFC Morfin wrote:
First point, I do not want to create a contentious issue between us and ICANN while we have _many_ other priorities preparing the World Internet Week de Paris (http://wiw.de-paris.info). So, these mails will not be copied immediately on our general list which has now 23 members, nor to the 700 Members (including ICANN Board Member) FGI list. However, your mails did leaked and the first questions are >coming in.
Thanks, Jefsey, nor do I.
For seven years I am used to explain people round the world and in France that ICANN does not disregard the @large, just ingnores them. Do not be afraid, I will manage to explain them that ALAC does better. But I cannot know what people will do with it.
I have heard that you are involved in ICANN issues since many years and much longer than I am. And therefore it’s difficult for newcomers like me to „judge“ on old-hands like you; with the questions I raised I was not questioning your merits. (...)
Let me first ask you what is your job in this case, what is the role of the people in copy. You are not on the published ALAC lists. (...)
My job in this and other application cases is the one of an acting chair of EURALO at the moment. In this function all the applications regarding our geographic region are transferred to us to be verified by the board and to come up with an opinion and recommendation before ALAC takes a decision on approval or disapproval. Our verification is based on the Application and Due Diligence form submitted by the staff. Besides this we do consult the Website of the applicant and collect further infos from people who may know the organisation or people involved etc. When we get contradictory infos on an applicant – as it was the case here – the issue always becomes difficult for the RALO and board involved to come up with a unanimous recommendation for ALAC.
(...) to understand who (except Cheryl) are the people you involve in Cc, who are the four decision makers and the three members of the Staff you discuss.
Until yesterday we tried to keep this discussion as internal as possible; to my knowledge there were ALAC and EURALO board members and the Staff involved.
This may explain me some of the oddities I do not understand. May be, could you please explain what is exactly the internal procedure you >follow.
As I mentioned before and as Nick stated: „... the ALS Application Evaluation process in the document previously attached“. (...)
Let me clarify. I revived france@large after so many years of ICANN disinterest in what we consider @larges are. This is only to try to help ICANN stabilize better in the societal and cultural changes we are involved in. france@larege being an ALS is of interest to ICANN only if we welcome ICANN in Paris as an ALS. (...)
If I understand you right the questions and options I raised cannot contribute to a constructive solution in this matter – and I would never dare „pulling (your) leg“ BTW.
Please do not call "inconsistent" or "controversial" what only reflect lacks in the Staff review of our registration. (...)
It was not only the Staff review showing “inconsistencies” and what made the application "controversial". Bref: Pour le moment je me sens mal-placé à proposer une solution valable ou vivable, Jefsey. The only thing I know at the moment is that we need a way out and a valid solution in this matter. Best regards, Wolf JFC Morfin Tue, 29 Apr 2008 03:43:
Dear Wolf, First point, I do not want to create a contentious issue between us and ICANN while we have _many_ other priorities preparing the World Internet Week de Paris (http://wiw.de-paris.info). So, these mails will not be copied immediately on our general list which has now 23 members, nor to the 700 Members (including ICANN Board Member) FGI list. However, your mails did leaked and the first questions are coming in.
For seven years I am used to explain people round the world and in France that ICANN does not disregard the @large, just ingnores them. Do not be afraid, I will manage to explain them that ALAC does better. But I cannot know what people will do with it.
At 01:26 29/04/2008, Wolf Ludwig wrote:
Dear Jefsey, as I mentioned before in (one of) my mails to Vittorio, I don't want to make my opinion regarding your application to a personal affair. As I mentioned before as well, there were several people mostly independent and unbiased - looking at your application and showing up with almost the same questions again. This is anything else but a conspiracy, perhaps a surprising coincidence.
As it seems to me after today's discussion, we cannot come up with an unanimous position from the EURALO board and membership at the very moment and until April 30 (deadline of the ALAC decision after consultation with the RALO concerned). Therefore let me ask you the following questions â" what you partly suggested (if I understood it well) in your response:
Before answering this, I need to understand better an organisation we are just joining.
Let me first ask you what is your job in this case, what is the role of the people in copy. You are not on the published ALAC lists. I went to the ICANN site and looked for a few names to understand who (except Cheryl) are the people you involve in Cc, who are the four decision makers and the three members of the Staff you discuss. All this sounds pure rigmarole to me, when you probably try to follow one of the many bureaucratic ICANN procedures.
- Ludwig Wolf = one (your application) - france@large = four (not ours yet) - Langdon-Orr = nineteen. - Massimilino Minisci = None. - Jefsey, Jefsey Morfin or JFC = 1743.
This may explain me some of the oddities I do not understand. May be, could you please explain what is exactly the internal procedure you follow.
1- Could you, given the fact that your application is controversial, accept a prolongation of the ALAC approval deadline by let's say two months or the end of the 32nd ICANN Public Meeting in Paris? This would give us a chance to sit together in Paris and to re-discuss all the open and unclear questions and inconsistencies regarding your application.
Let me clarify. I revived france@large after so many years of ICANN disinterest in what we consider @larges are. This is only to try to help ICANN stabilize better in the societal and cultural changes we are involved in. france@larege being an ALS is of interest to ICANN only if we welcome ICANN in Paris as an ALS. We registered for that in due time. We _do_not_understand_ all this fuss. I must say that I only take it as personal, what I am used to. I am also used to politically win. But I do not see the reasons of the fight.
2- Could you, in the meantime, forward all supplementary information needed to the ICANN staff in charge or the EURALO board to better answer the existing questions and clarify inconsistencies?
Let me kindly ask you if you are pulling my leg? At the present time I know no question. I just learned today about a circulated document which is purely absurd. It only shows that author does not know about mailman, nor about the law.
3- Could we sort out controversial points regarding France@Large's application, in the time frame mentioned, before referring to other instances (such as Ombudsman or media)?
Please do not call "inconsistent" or "controversial" what only reflect lacks in the Staff review of our registration. I have no intent, if we can avoid it, on such a trivial issue, to bother Frank Fowlie and the Board. But you have to realise that france@large is known to journalists in France as the odd people who want to help the ICANN transition. And I am also known. We have started the http://wikicann.org site to document this help and inform the press, media and public independently. It was very recently started : you can go and check that it was already accessed 2300 times. These are not things prepared at the last minute. I am not the master of what will be published when people discover your mails.
As you may know, the RALO concerned can only express its opinion and recommendation on an application and ALAC will take the decision. Therefore itâs on ALAC to decide on any prolongation in this matter but I wanted to sort out the options of a potential solution in the interest of the RALO concerned.
As france@large, I am only concerned by the interest of ICANN and of our members. This necessarily demands a war/cooperation decision of ICANN to be reached before two weeks. I am certainly ready to provide answers to professional questions, but I have difficulties understanding what I have not provided yet in our file and on the phone.
I certainly understand how it is embrassing. All this seems to be new both to us and to ICANN/ALAC. Let just address it professionnally. It should only be smooth. (Just for your information I am moving my office and I have most of my stuff packed).
Cheers! jfc
comunica-ch phone +41 79 204 83 87 Skype: Wolf-Ludwig www.comunica-ch.net http://blog.allmend.ch - Digitale Allmend
participants (2)
-
JFC Morfin -
Wolf Ludwig