Dear All, Please find the attendance and MP3 recording for the IGO-INGO Curative Rights Protection PDP WG Meeting held on Thursday, 06 October 2016 at 16:00 UTC at: http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-igo-ingo-crp-access-06oct16-en.mp3 <http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-igo-ingo-crp-access-06oct16-en.mp3> On page: https://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar#oct The recordings and transcriptions of the calls are posted on the GNSO Master Calendar page: http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__gnso.icann.org_en_group-2Dactivities_calendar-23nov&d=DQMF-g&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=8_WhWIPqsLT6TmF1Zmyci866vcPSFO4VShFqESGe_5iHWGlBLwwwehFBfjrsjWv9&m=wBBn3Ar2_mvUeGcM8rpOAyluUFEJFG5lASQ-cAccI2k&s=3BfiwO43tzwlrIbIyBY4Q-14zsFQCX518fLLR8GWR7I&e=> Attendees: David Maher - PIR George Kirikos – Individual Jay Chapman – Individual Jim Bikoff - IPC Lori Schulman - IPC Mason Cole – RySG Paul Keating - NCUC Paul Tattersfiled – Individual Phil Corwin - BC Reg Levy – RySG Apologies: David Maher – PIR Petter Rindforth - IPC ICANN staff: Mary Wong Steve Chan Berry Cobb Emily Barabas Michelle DeSmyter ** Please let me know if your name has been left off the list ** Mailing list archives: http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__mm.icann.org_pipermail_gnso-2Dppsai-2Dpdp-2Dwg_&d=DQMF-g&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=8_WhWIPqsLT6TmF1Zmyci866vcPSFO4VShFqESGe_5iHWGlBLwwwehFBfjrsjWv9&m=wBBn3Ar2_mvUeGcM8rpOAyluUFEJFG5lASQ-cAccI2k&s=0DPVbyS_PjKHjDK_BuEqUeaDPy30OftE7eI0j4dIwJc&e=> Wiki page: https://community.icann.org/x/DBK4Aw Thank you. Kind regards, Michelle DeSmyter ------------------------------- Adobe Connect chat transcript for Thursday, 06 October 2016 Michelle DeSmyter: Dear All, Welcome to the IGO-INGO Curative Rights Protection Mechanisms WG on Thursday, 06 October 2016 at 16:00 UTC. George Kirikos: Hi folks. Mary Wong: Hi George! George Kirikos: Hi Mary. How are you today? Mary Wong: Not too bad, how about yourself? George Kirikos: I'm fine, thanks. Just a few more hours until the big baseball game begins (my Toronto Blue Jays are playing the Texas Rangers). Mary Wong: I guess that's a big game? (not much of a baseball fan, even after living in the US for over a decade!) George Kirikos: It's the first game of the American League division playoffs......still a way off for the World Series, though. George Kirikos: On Tuesday, the Jays had a dramatic win in the wild card game, to get to this stage. George Kirikos: Hi Michelle. Mary Wong: Nice! Philip Corwin: trying to call in George Kirikos: Lori said she'll be 30 mins late. George Kirikos: (due to a conflict with another meeting) Paul Tattersfield: Sorry I'm late George Kirikos: Welcome, Paul. Jay Chapman: Hello, Sorry not on the line, just on abobe (wihtout a mic) Michelle DeSmyter: would you like a dial out Jay? Mary Wong: THe options are on Page 11 of the new draft Jay Chapman: yes, i will use that. thanks, Michelle George Kirikos: There was red text in the DOCX file sent earlier in the week. Jay Chapman: I made some additional comments earlier today on the Google doc version of the draft - things I've been thinking about for a while Mary Wong: @Jay, thank you - we will take a look at the Google doc and incorporate your changes George Kirikos: It looks fine to me. Paul Tattersfield: An aside: It would be really helpful if the number of pages / page length in the emailed documents could be the same as the ones in the document window Mary Wong: @Paul T, I'm not sure why there's a discrepancy -that may be an AC issue George Kirikos: If it's published as a PDF, that might make it less prone to having differences in pagination, etc. George Kirikos: (it was a DOCX that was sent to the mailing list) George Kirikos: The file in the window here is a PDF. Paul Tattersfield: Mary I think its to do with differing page lengths in the .docx and .pdf document formats. It makes it difficult to jump in and out fo the emailsed documents during the call as speakers refer to the page they are viewing George Kirikos: Monday was the deadline for additional comments. Jay Chapman: nor worries, Mary - understand. i made them earlier today George Kirikos: We could perhaps quote the exact language here: http://www.wipo.int/article6ter/en/legal_texts/article_6ter.html George Kirikos: "uch use or registration is probably not of such a nature as to mislead the public as to the existence of a connection between the user and the organization." George Kirikos: "use or registration referred to in subparagraph (a), above, is not of such a nature as to suggest to the public that a connection exists between the organization concerned " Paul Tattersfield: they don't need to register for 6 ter for protection George Kirikos: Although, I guess the language appears directly below the Rec #3 (albeit unquoted). Paul Tattersfield: its the fact they are known by their name and they supply goods or services is sufficient. 6ter is just one ofrm of evidence of that standing George Kirikos: The 1(c) seems to be be about impersonation of the IGO by someone else, to prevent that. Other uses, where there's no impersonation, should be ok (as long as there's no implied connection, etc.). Reg Levy - MMX: awake! George Kirikos: Reg has her hand up. George Kirikos: It wouldn't be a replacement/substitute. George Kirikos: It's a curative right, vs. a preventive right. Paul Tattersfield: that is currative George Kirikos: It's supposed to go away, after our work, I believe. Reg Levy - MMX: I understand that they're different but they are overlapping and one would be unnecessary if the other existed. Reg Levy - MMX: Currently, we do block most, though. George Kirikos: Not really, Reg, since the reserve list only applies to new gTLDs. Our work applies to legacy ones, too. Reg Levy - MMX: That's fair. Neither applies to ccTLDs. Berry Cobb: @George, the reservations of IGO/INGOs is for all gTLDs all of which is yet to be implemented. George Kirikos: Furthermore, IGOs might be interested in many other variations of the names, beyond those currently reserved. e.g. "UNESCO.TLD" might be reserved, but UNESCOSTORE.TLD, etc. George Kirikos: would still need to be dealt with via curative rights mechanisms. Berry Cobb: but you are correct that the Spec5 list as it sits today only applied to New gTLDs Reg Levy - MMX: "has yet to be implemented"? All gTLDs I know block them George Kirikos: Not .com. If ECO.COM dropped, it would be able to be re-registered. Berry Cobb: Yes, there is an IGO/INGO IRT to implement thos recommendations that were approved by the Board in 2014. George Kirikos: Some of the reserved names were even unregistered in .com (the long awful ones). Reg Levy - MMX: Allowing IGO/NGO access to URS/UDRP makes more sense to me than reserving some of the epically long SLDs Berry Cobb: Acronyms are still outstanding and are to be considered by the small group that Phil just referred to. Paul Tattersfield: There is no requirement under UDRP to register a TM or list it using 6ter for standing to bring an action, all registration and 6ter listing does is provide public notice of the rights Berry Cobb: This is the reconciliation process between the GNSO Recs and the GAC Advice. George Kirikos: Reg: they already have access to the URS/UDRP. :-) They raised the issue, though, about immunity concerns preventing them from using it...although, it turns out to have been overdramatized. George Kirikos: I agree with you, Reg, that there shouldn't be a reserved list. George Kirikos: (i.e. it penalizes everyone, including those who might have a fair use for the string, e.g. ECO.TLD). Lori Schulman: Hi Reg Levy - MMX: Just frustrated that they get all these benefits and something like "eco.fashion" can't be sold to someone who no one is going to relate to the Economic Cooperation Organization Lori Schulman: Sorry to be so late, I had the old Adobe room not the new Adobe room address Reg Levy - MMX: Thanks for the information, George :) Lori Schulman: Reg's point is valid. Trademark protection is about context. Lori Schulman: and formulas remove context George Kirikos: It represents a prior restraint on speech. George Kirikos: (i.e. the reserved lists) Jay Chapman: That's a good suggestion, Phil Lori Schulman: The crux of all of our contention is how to create context when formulaic responses are required George Kirikos: I disagree with that new language, since they could always use an assignee, licensee, etc. Reg Levy - MMX: UDRP/URS seems to do that; why isn't that sufficient? George Kirikos: The reserved list was a bad rushed "solution" that proponents of new GTLDs accepted, just to get the program approved. George Kirikos: Perhaps IGOs could get a subsidy of the Donuts DPML, etc. Reg Levy - MMX: agreed it was bad and rushed—but does that mean it is up for reevaluation and is that what we're doing? Reg Levy - MMX: I would be okay allowing them access to the MPML George Kirikos: Even the collision lists are slowly being removed. Reg Levy - MMX: even for .home and .corp?? ^.^ George Kirikos: hehe You saw my CircleID article on that (those should probably be kept reserved). I was talking about 2nd-level collisions, rather than top level ones. ;-) Lori Schulman: The collision lists hurt brandowners too Lori Schulman: I prefer Ms. George Kirikos: We've not seen a huge amount of cybersquatting in the new gTLDs, so to the extent the reserved list was created in anticipation of that, those fears turned out to be overblown. Reg Levy - MMX: AGREEEEE George Kirikos: It's interesting that this GAC letter comes after September 30th....makes me wonder if the NTIA transition was preventing it, or .....? George Kirikos: (i.e. if it's anti-free speech, etc., that would have exposed the transition to criticism, if these governments overeach) Mary Wong: @George, from my exchanges with Board Operations support colleagues, I don't think so. I think it was a matter of getting Board clearance while everyone was focused on the transition. George Kirikos: Thanks, Mary. George Kirikos: +1 Jay Paul Keating: I agree completely with Jay's comment George Kirikos: That's why many moons ago, when the "assignee" option was first explored, I asked whether our PDP was essentially done. (check the email archives) :-) Lori Schulman: In response to Jay, you could say "alleged infringing conduct" Lori Schulman: or "conduct of concern" Paul Tattersfield: Lori, did you hear back from Brian on assignment? Lori Schulman: Yes, I raised my hand to discuss. I am in the queue George Kirikos: December 2014: http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2014-December/000221.html :-) Mary Wong: Thanks to all - this guidance is very helpful as staff was trying to figure out what exactly are the risks here for both IGOs and the registrant. George Kirikos: As Paul Keating pointed out, the IGOs could have also solved the issue by us defining the extent to which the "immunity" applied, i.e. just limited to the domain name, and not to other things like costs, etc. Lori Schulman: To Paul's point, not simple clerical solutions, need holding companies, written agreements, etc. George Kirikos: But, they were not amenable to that. George Kirikos: @Lori: Simple written agreement, like UNITAID. George Kirikos: Didn't need a holding company --- could just get a 1 page letter. George Kirikos: UNITAID could provide a template for IGOs to use. Lori Schulman: UNITAID? George Kirikos: Lori: see http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2014-December/000221.html Mary Wong: We will rewrite these points as best we can following the points made today. Lori Schulman: A simple letter could be seen as a glass shield not a steel shelf George Kirikos: I emailed you about the UNITAID stuff, too, I think, re: the licensing (although UNITAID was about assignment) George Kirikos: Here's the UNITAID case: http://www.wipo.int/amc/en/domains/search/text.jsp?case=D2012-1922 Paul Keating: Lori, yes, but it can be a simple assignment of claims and a right to prosecute Mary Wong: Maybe we should add some text acknowledging that these alternatives involve some additional organizational decision/involvement on the part of the IGO - to clarify that we considered these. George Kirikos: Interesting, I had pointed out the licensee language in 2014, too, in that email! http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2014-December/000220.html George Kirikos: (then forgot about it, but then rediscovered it again afterwards) Lori Schulman: got it Paul Keating: lori pls email me at paul@law.es Lori Schulman: lschulman@inta.org Paul Tattersfield: thanks Lori, pity there wasn't more time for this important matter Lori Schulman: No worries, we will reconnect. I just sent my contact details. I need to sign off. I have a meeting with my CEO. ciao George Kirikos: @Lori: my Sept 15th email to you discussed the UNITAID stuff, too. Jay Chapman: Thanks, everyone! George Kirikos: Bye folks. Paul Tattersfield: Thanks all bye Reg Levy - MMX: thanks, all!