Re: [Gnso-igo-ingo-crp] Consolidated results of informal poll constituting preliminary consensus call on Options A-C
George: This co-chair categorically reject your reckless charge that I have engaged in "fear-mongering". I regard that as a personal affront. You really should apologize. Please stick to the substance ands stop making reckless and unfounded allegations about others' motivations. As for revelation of how any member voted on our preliminary consensus call, those members who wish to reveal how they marked their ballots are free to do so -- but we will not violate reasonable expectations of privacy, especially when it now clear that support for Option C can expose one to reckless charges. Philip -----Original Message----- From: Gnso-igo-ingo-crp [mailto:gnso-igo-ingo-crp-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of George Kirikos Sent: Friday, November 17, 2017 2:17 PM To: gnso-igo-ingo-crp@icann.org Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Gnso-igo-ingo-crp] Consolidated results of informal poll constituting preliminary consensus call on Options A-C I think the comments within this survey are quite telling. Those who are in favour of option A (and opposing option C) have very strong and fully considered views, which they can explain and support with facts and reasoning. Compare that to those expressing support for C (and opposing A/B). They make statements like: "Fair and balanced" (supporting C) "DOA at Council" (opposing A) bereft of credible reasoning. This demonstrates that it's fear-mongering by the co-chairs and political motivations that led some to switch from Option 1 (now Option A) to Option C (formerly Option 2), rather than anything based on new facts or new analysis. Given this, it explains the refusal by the co-chairs to attach names to those who are supporting Option C -- there's no expectation of privacy here --- everyone must vote publicly when it comes down to a final consensus call, and should have been able to publicly explain why they supported Option C in this preliminary survey. In the book "Principles" by Ray Dalio that I'm reading, he writes about how decisions at Bridgewater go through what's called "believability-weighted decision making", see some discussion of that at: http://www.businessinsider.com/bridgewater-ray-dalio-legacy-2017-9 I think that is a wise approach, whereby votes that are backed by sound logic, facts, experience, and reasoning should be weighted much higher than votes that lack those attributes and which are instead fear-driven and thus are not believable. It's been said that "One man with courage makes a majority." Hopefully it does not have to come to that. Sincerely, George Kirikos 416-588-0269 http://www.leap.com/ On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 1:50 PM, Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org> wrote:
Dear all,
As noted on the Working Group call yesterday, please find attached the consolidated results of the informal poll that was conducted regarding Working Group member preferences as among Options A, B and C.
Individual Working Group members – especially those who provided specific comments as part of their poll response – are invited to add any relevant background and further thoughts to this email.
Thanks and cheers
Mary
_______________________________________________ Gnso-igo-ingo-crp mailing list Gnso-igo-ingo-crp@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-igo-ingo-crp
Gnso-igo-ingo-crp mailing list Gnso-igo-ingo-crp@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-igo-ingo-crp
Hello, On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 2:26 PM, Corwin, Philip <pcorwin@verisign.com> wrote:
This co-chair categorically reject your reckless charge that I have engaged in "fear-mongering".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fearmongering "Fearmongering or scaremongering is the spreading of frightening and exaggerated rumors of an impending danger or the habit or tactic of purposely and needlessly arousing public fear about an issue.[1][2][3] This can take the form of psychological manipulation that uses fear-based tactics (scare tactics) including exaggeration and usually repetition to influence the public in order to achieve a desired outcome.[citation needed] It is a tactic used to scare or put fear into those viewing a campaign/advertisement and influence the outcome based on fear." You've repeatedly used the "Thelma and Louise" metaphor, http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2017-October/000872.html driving off a cliff, that the entire report would get rejected if Option C wasn't selected. These aren't "new facts" or "new analysis" being used to push Option C. They're fear and politics, plain and simple. The "art of the possible", as though this is a negotiation, rather a truth-seeking exercise. I'm not the only one that recognizes this -- see the messages by Paul Keating and Mike Rodenbaugh yesterday: http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2017-November/000905.html http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2017-November/000906.html
Please stick to the substance ands stop making reckless and unfounded allegations about others' motivations.
When I have in the past, you've said that: http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2017-October/000877.html "I am not going to even begin to attempt a point-by-point response to your extremely long message." My message you refer to: http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2017-October/000876.html is 1,908 words, according to Wordcounter.net. According to Medium.com, the average adult reads at 275 Words Per Minute: https://help.medium.com/hc/en-us/articles/214991667-Read-time so apparently a 7 minute long article is "extremely long". Of course, many of us have above average in reading skill, given our higher education, etc. Lawyers (I'm not one) should have especially high reading skills. I contrast those 7 minutes with PDP conference calls that go for 90 minutes week after week after week for 3 years. A claim that those 7 minutes of reading time would make it an "extremely long message" doesn't seem correct to me. But, let me try to make it easy......just respond to these specific questions: 1. The October 12, 2017 "Options Document" (edited to remove that "error" above) is at: https://community.icann.org/display/gnsoicrpmpdp/WEBINAR+2017-10-12+IGO-INGO... The very first paragraph claims that: " Other options that were discussed previously by the Working Group have not been included in this proposal based on the co-chairs’ assessment either that their essential elements have been adapted and incorporated into Options A, B, and/or C (below), or that they were based on an incomplete reading of the applicable rules (i.e. the previous Option 5)." Where is Option 6 adapted and incorporated into Option C? Here's a reminder of what Option 6 was: http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2017-July/000811.html I assert that the options document mislead the working group by falsely stating that Option 6 was adapted and incorporated into the Option C. Yes or no? If Option 6 was adapted and incorporated into Option C, show us where it is in that document. [while I acknowledge I've been invited to resubmit Option 6 again to this PDP, I want you to acknowledge that the edited October 12, 2017 document makes that false claim above, and thus mislead the working group] 2. There is a long preface (the entire first page of that October 12th document, and the first paragraph of the 2nd page) criticizing Options A and B. Show me just a single statement that is negative towards Option C in that document that was prepared as "co-chairs" (not as individual members with a viewpoint). If you can't identify a single negative statement towards Option C, how is that not a biased document, and a misuse of the positions as co-chairs? I think those are enough, for now. I wouldn't want to make this email "too long" (under 700 words, so that's less than 3 minutes reading time for an average adult). The answers should be illuminating to this group. Sincerely, George Kirikos 416-588-0269 http://www.leap.com/
I have just boarded a plane. I will respond in full over the weekend. Sent from my iPhone On Nov 17, 2017, at 4:23 PM, George Kirikos <icann@leap.com<mailto:icann@leap.com>> wrote: Hello, On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 2:26 PM, Corwin, Philip <pcorwin@verisign.com<mailto:pcorwin@verisign.com>> wrote: This co-chair categorically reject your reckless charge that I have engaged in "fear-mongering". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fearmongering "Fearmongering or scaremongering is the spreading of frightening and exaggerated rumors of an impending danger or the habit or tactic of purposely and needlessly arousing public fear about an issue.[1][2][3] This can take the form of psychological manipulation that uses fear-based tactics (scare tactics) including exaggeration and usually repetition to influence the public in order to achieve a desired outcome.[citation needed] It is a tactic used to scare or put fear into those viewing a campaign/advertisement and influence the outcome based on fear." You've repeatedly used the "Thelma and Louise" metaphor, http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2017-October/000872.html driving off a cliff, that the entire report would get rejected if Option C wasn't selected. These aren't "new facts" or "new analysis" being used to push Option C. They're fear and politics, plain and simple. The "art of the possible", as though this is a negotiation, rather a truth-seeking exercise. I'm not the only one that recognizes this -- see the messages by Paul Keating and Mike Rodenbaugh yesterday: http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2017-November/000905.html http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2017-November/000906.html Please stick to the substance ands stop making reckless and unfounded allegations about others' motivations. When I have in the past, you've said that: http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2017-October/000877.html "I am not going to even begin to attempt a point-by-point response to your extremely long message." My message you refer to: http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2017-October/000876.html is 1,908 words, according to http://Wordcounter.net. According to http://Medium.com, the average adult reads at 275 Words Per Minute: https://help.medium.com/hc/en-us/articles/214991667-Read-time so apparently a 7 minute long article is "extremely long". Of course, many of us have above average in reading skill, given our higher education, etc. Lawyers (I'm not one) should have especially high reading skills. I contrast those 7 minutes with PDP conference calls that go for 90 minutes week after week after week for 3 years. A claim that those 7 minutes of reading time would make it an "extremely long message" doesn't seem correct to me. But, let me try to make it easy......just respond to these specific questions: 1. The October 12, 2017 "Options Document" (edited to remove that "error" above) is at: https://community.icann.org/display/gnsoicrpmpdp/WEBINAR+2017-10-12+IGO-INGO... The very first paragraph claims that: " Other options that were discussed previously by the Working Group have not been included in this proposal based on the co-chairs’ assessment either that their essential elements have been adapted and incorporated into Options A, B, and/or C (below), or that they were based on an incomplete reading of the applicable rules (i.e. the previous Option 5)." Where is Option 6 adapted and incorporated into Option C? Here's a reminder of what Option 6 was: http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2017-July/000811.html I assert that the options document mislead the working group by falsely stating that Option 6 was adapted and incorporated into the Option C. Yes or no? If Option 6 was adapted and incorporated into Option C, show us where it is in that document. [while I acknowledge I've been invited to resubmit Option 6 again to this PDP, I want you to acknowledge that the edited October 12, 2017 document makes that false claim above, and thus mislead the working group] 2. There is a long preface (the entire first page of that October 12th document, and the first paragraph of the 2nd page) criticizing Options A and B. Show me just a single statement that is negative towards Option C in that document that was prepared as "co-chairs" (not as individual members with a viewpoint). If you can't identify a single negative statement towards Option C, how is that not a biased document, and a misuse of the positions as co-chairs? I think those are enough, for now. I wouldn't want to make this email "too long" (under 700 words, so that's less than 3 minutes reading time for an average adult). The answers should be illuminating to this group. Sincerely, George Kirikos 416-588-0269 http://www.leap.com/ _______________________________________________ Gnso-igo-ingo-crp mailing list Gnso-igo-ingo-crp@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-igo-ingo-crp@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-igo-ingo-crp
George: Your referencing of the Wikipedia link to fear mongering illustrates exactly why I have taken personal offense at its use. I have provided a dispassionate analysis of the obstacles facing adoption of a Final Report containing Option 1/A. I have not promulgated exaggerated rumors, sought to needlessly arouse fears, attempted psychological manipulation, or otherwise sought to sway WG members on the basis of fear. I further note that other definitions of the term associate it with deception and a desire to instill needless alarm. As for my Thelma and Louise metaphor, my intent was to humorously conjure up a ready visual image for the concept of this WG voluntarily adopting a "poison pill" amendment that could doom acceptance of its entire work product. I seriously doubt that this cinematic reference instilled fear in any WG member. A few minutes ago I again repeated the numerous policy arguments and pragmatic process considerations that are the basis for my non-support of Option 1/A and support for Option 2/C. There is no fear mongering in them. I have spent eleven years as a participant in the ICANN community and have striven to develop a reputation for fact and policy based reasoning. I have been on the winning and losing sides of policy debates, and I have never attempted to smear the reputation, or question the motivation, of a party on the prevailing side. I cannot allow such allegations to stand unchallenged, especially as your allegation that the co-chairs have engaged in "fear mongering" follows upon what I believe to be equally baseless allegations that we have abused our co-chair positions to pressure the WG to deliver a particular policy result. Any objective review of this WG's meeting transcripts and email list will likely show that you have been accorded more time and words to articulate your views that any other WG member. The policy options that you favored were two of the three options presented for WG consideration on our preliminary consensus call. On our last call I stated that the WG would welcome the submission of additional language relating to Option 2/C from you for WG review and consideration prior to a final consensus call. And you and other supporters of Option 1/A are free to include a Minority Statement in our Final Report if it does not achieve consensus support. In sum, your views have been accorded every procedural right and courtesy in the operation of this WG, and the fact that they have not received consensus support is, in my personal opinion, due to their inherent policy defects and not to any impermissible psychological manipulation undertaken by the co-chairs. In conclusion, I believe that your allegation of fear mongering is a direct assault upon my character and reputation and a violation of the ICANN Expected Standards of Behavior https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/expected-standards-2016-06-28-en . I will provide you with one last opportunity to retract that allegation. If you do not I will be compelled to seek redress by other available means. Philip -----Original Message----- From: Gnso-igo-ingo-crp [mailto:gnso-igo-ingo-crp-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of George Kirikos Sent: Friday, November 17, 2017 4:23 PM To: gnso-igo-ingo-crp@icann.org Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Gnso-igo-ingo-crp] Consolidated results of informal poll constituting preliminary consensus call on Options A-C Hello, On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 2:26 PM, Corwin, Philip <pcorwin@verisign.com> wrote:
This co-chair categorically reject your reckless charge that I have engaged in "fear-mongering".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fearmongering "Fearmongering or scaremongering is the spreading of frightening and exaggerated rumors of an impending danger or the habit or tactic of purposely and needlessly arousing public fear about an issue.[1][2][3] This can take the form of psychological manipulation that uses fear-based tactics (scare tactics) including exaggeration and usually repetition to influence the public in order to achieve a desired outcome.[citation needed] It is a tactic used to scare or put fear into those viewing a campaign/advertisement and influence the outcome based on fear." You've repeatedly used the "Thelma and Louise" metaphor, http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2017-October/000872.html driving off a cliff, that the entire report would get rejected if Option C wasn't selected. These aren't "new facts" or "new analysis" being used to push Option C. They're fear and politics, plain and simple. The "art of the possible", as though this is a negotiation, rather a truth-seeking exercise. I'm not the only one that recognizes this -- see the messages by Paul Keating and Mike Rodenbaugh yesterday: http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2017-November/000905.html http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2017-November/000906.html
Please stick to the substance ands stop making reckless and unfounded allegations about others' motivations.
When I have in the past, you've said that: http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2017-October/000877.html "I am not going to even begin to attempt a point-by-point response to your extremely long message." My message you refer to: http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2017-October/000876.html is 1,908 words, according to Wordcounter.net. According to Medium.com, the average adult reads at 275 Words Per Minute: https://help.medium.com/hc/en-us/articles/214991667-Read-time so apparently a 7 minute long article is "extremely long". Of course, many of us have above average in reading skill, given our higher education, etc. Lawyers (I'm not one) should have especially high reading skills. I contrast those 7 minutes with PDP conference calls that go for 90 minutes week after week after week for 3 years. A claim that those 7 minutes of reading time would make it an "extremely long message" doesn't seem correct to me. But, let me try to make it easy......just respond to these specific questions: 1. The October 12, 2017 "Options Document" (edited to remove that "error" above) is at: https://community.icann.org/display/gnsoicrpmpdp/WEBINAR+2017-10-12+IGO-INGO... The very first paragraph claims that: " Other options that were discussed previously by the Working Group have not been included in this proposal based on the co-chairs’ assessment either that their essential elements have been adapted and incorporated into Options A, B, and/or C (below), or that they were based on an incomplete reading of the applicable rules (i.e. the previous Option 5)." Where is Option 6 adapted and incorporated into Option C? Here's a reminder of what Option 6 was: http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2017-July/000811.html I assert that the options document mislead the working group by falsely stating that Option 6 was adapted and incorporated into the Option C. Yes or no? If Option 6 was adapted and incorporated into Option C, show us where it is in that document. [while I acknowledge I've been invited to resubmit Option 6 again to this PDP, I want you to acknowledge that the edited October 12, 2017 document makes that false claim above, and thus mislead the working group] 2. There is a long preface (the entire first page of that October 12th document, and the first paragraph of the 2nd page) criticizing Options A and B. Show me just a single statement that is negative towards Option C in that document that was prepared as "co-chairs" (not as individual members with a viewpoint). If you can't identify a single negative statement towards Option C, how is that not a biased document, and a misuse of the positions as co-chairs? I think those are enough, for now. I wouldn't want to make this email "too long" (under 700 words, so that's less than 3 minutes reading time for an average adult). The answers should be illuminating to this group. Sincerely, George Kirikos 416-588-0269 http://www.leap.com/ _______________________________________________ Gnso-igo-ingo-crp mailing list Gnso-igo-ingo-crp@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-igo-ingo-crp
Let's not get distracted. If you don't like the term "fear mongering", I will retract it. However, I've made my position very clear that instead of our work and final report being based on facts, logic, law, and reasoning and formal input to this PDP, we have been pressured to deliver a result based on on what is "acceptable" output, regardless of whether our facts, law, and reasoning are correct. You have repeatedly made statements that the ENTIRE REPORT will be rejected if we return a certain outcome (Option A), regardless of whether our facts, logic, law and reasoning are correct. That, in my view, is politics and not how we should be operating this PDP. Sincerely, George Kirikos 416-588-0269 http://www.leap.com/ On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 11:07 AM, Corwin, Philip <pcorwin@verisign.com> wrote:
George:
Your referencing of the Wikipedia link to fear mongering illustrates exactly why I have taken personal offense at its use. I have provided a dispassionate analysis of the obstacles facing adoption of a Final Report containing Option 1/A. I have not promulgated exaggerated rumors, sought to needlessly arouse fears, attempted psychological manipulation, or otherwise sought to sway WG members on the basis of fear. I further note that other definitions of the term associate it with deception and a desire to instill needless alarm.
As for my Thelma and Louise metaphor, my intent was to humorously conjure up a ready visual image for the concept of this WG voluntarily adopting a "poison pill" amendment that could doom acceptance of its entire work product. I seriously doubt that this cinematic reference instilled fear in any WG member.
A few minutes ago I again repeated the numerous policy arguments and pragmatic process considerations that are the basis for my non-support of Option 1/A and support for Option 2/C. There is no fear mongering in them.
I have spent eleven years as a participant in the ICANN community and have striven to develop a reputation for fact and policy based reasoning. I have been on the winning and losing sides of policy debates, and I have never attempted to smear the reputation, or question the motivation, of a party on the prevailing side. I cannot allow such allegations to stand unchallenged, especially as your allegation that the co-chairs have engaged in "fear mongering" follows upon what I believe to be equally baseless allegations that we have abused our co-chair positions to pressure the WG to deliver a particular policy result.
Any objective review of this WG's meeting transcripts and email list will likely show that you have been accorded more time and words to articulate your views that any other WG member. The policy options that you favored were two of the three options presented for WG consideration on our preliminary consensus call. On our last call I stated that the WG would welcome the submission of additional language relating to Option 2/C from you for WG review and consideration prior to a final consensus call. And you and other supporters of Option 1/A are free to include a Minority Statement in our Final Report if it does not achieve consensus support. In sum, your views have been accorded every procedural right and courtesy in the operation of this WG, and the fact that they have not received consensus support is, in my personal opinion, due to their inherent policy defects and not to any impermissible psychological manipulation undertaken by the co-chairs.
In conclusion, I believe that your allegation of fear mongering is a direct assault upon my character and reputation and a violation of the ICANN Expected Standards of Behavior https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/expected-standards-2016-06-28-en . I will provide you with one last opportunity to retract that allegation. If you do not I will be compelled to seek redress by other available means.
Philip
-----Original Message----- From: Gnso-igo-ingo-crp [mailto:gnso-igo-ingo-crp-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of George Kirikos Sent: Friday, November 17, 2017 4:23 PM To: gnso-igo-ingo-crp@icann.org Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Gnso-igo-ingo-crp] Consolidated results of informal poll constituting preliminary consensus call on Options A-C
Hello,
On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 2:26 PM, Corwin, Philip <pcorwin@verisign.com> wrote:
This co-chair categorically reject your reckless charge that I have engaged in "fear-mongering".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fearmongering
"Fearmongering or scaremongering is the spreading of frightening and exaggerated rumors of an impending danger or the habit or tactic of purposely and needlessly arousing public fear about an issue.[1][2][3] This can take the form of psychological manipulation that uses fear-based tactics (scare tactics) including exaggeration and usually repetition to influence the public in order to achieve a desired outcome.[citation needed] It is a tactic used to scare or put fear into those viewing a campaign/advertisement and influence the outcome based on fear."
You've repeatedly used the "Thelma and Louise" metaphor,
http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2017-October/000872.html
driving off a cliff, that the entire report would get rejected if Option C wasn't selected. These aren't "new facts" or "new analysis" being used to push Option C. They're fear and politics, plain and simple. The "art of the possible", as though this is a negotiation, rather a truth-seeking exercise. I'm not the only one that recognizes this -- see the messages by Paul Keating and Mike Rodenbaugh yesterday:
http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2017-November/000905.html http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2017-November/000906.html
Please stick to the substance ands stop making reckless and unfounded allegations about others' motivations.
When I have in the past, you've said that:
http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2017-October/000877.html
"I am not going to even begin to attempt a point-by-point response to your extremely long message."
My message you refer to:
http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2017-October/000876.html
is 1,908 words, according to Wordcounter.net. According to Medium.com, the average adult reads at 275 Words Per Minute:
https://help.medium.com/hc/en-us/articles/214991667-Read-time
so apparently a 7 minute long article is "extremely long". Of course, many of us have above average in reading skill, given our higher education, etc. Lawyers (I'm not one) should have especially high reading skills. I contrast those 7 minutes with PDP conference calls that go for 90 minutes week after week after week for 3 years. A claim that those 7 minutes of reading time would make it an "extremely long message" doesn't seem correct to me.
But, let me try to make it easy......just respond to these specific questions:
1. The October 12, 2017 "Options Document" (edited to remove that "error" above) is at:
https://community.icann.org/display/gnsoicrpmpdp/WEBINAR+2017-10-12+IGO-INGO...
The very first paragraph claims that:
" Other options that were discussed previously by the Working Group have not been included in this proposal based on the co-chairs’ assessment either that their essential elements have been adapted and incorporated into Options A, B, and/or C (below), or that they were based on an incomplete reading of the applicable rules (i.e. the previous Option 5)."
Where is Option 6 adapted and incorporated into Option C? Here's a reminder of what Option 6 was:
http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2017-July/000811.html
I assert that the options document mislead the working group by falsely stating that Option 6 was adapted and incorporated into the Option C. Yes or no? If Option 6 was adapted and incorporated into Option C, show us where it is in that document.
[while I acknowledge I've been invited to resubmit Option 6 again to this PDP, I want you to acknowledge that the edited October 12, 2017 document makes that false claim above, and thus mislead the working group]
2. There is a long preface (the entire first page of that October 12th document, and the first paragraph of the 2nd page) criticizing Options A and B. Show me just a single statement that is negative towards Option C in that document that was prepared as "co-chairs" (not as individual members with a viewpoint). If you can't identify a single negative statement towards Option C, how is that not a biased document, and a misuse of the positions as co-chairs?
I think those are enough, for now. I wouldn't want to make this email "too long" (under 700 words, so that's less than 3 minutes reading time for an average adult). The answers should be illuminating to this group.
Sincerely,
George Kirikos 416-588-0269 http://www.leap.com/ _______________________________________________ Gnso-igo-ingo-crp mailing list Gnso-igo-ingo-crp@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-igo-ingo-crp
Thank you for that retraction, George. I am once again headed to the airport and may have a further response once back home. Philip -----Original Message----- From: Gnso-igo-ingo-crp [mailto:gnso-igo-ingo-crp-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of George Kirikos Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 11:16 AM To: gnso-igo-ingo-crp@icann.org Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Gnso-igo-ingo-crp] Consolidated results of informal poll constituting preliminary consensus call on Options A-C Let's not get distracted. If you don't like the term "fear mongering", I will retract it. However, I've made my position very clear that instead of our work and final report being based on facts, logic, law, and reasoning and formal input to this PDP, we have been pressured to deliver a result based on on what is "acceptable" output, regardless of whether our facts, law, and reasoning are correct. You have repeatedly made statements that the ENTIRE REPORT will be rejected if we return a certain outcome (Option A), regardless of whether our facts, logic, law and reasoning are correct. That, in my view, is politics and not how we should be operating this PDP. Sincerely, George Kirikos 416-588-0269 http://www.leap.com/ On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 11:07 AM, Corwin, Philip <pcorwin@verisign.com> wrote:
George:
Your referencing of the Wikipedia link to fear mongering illustrates exactly why I have taken personal offense at its use. I have provided a dispassionate analysis of the obstacles facing adoption of a Final Report containing Option 1/A. I have not promulgated exaggerated rumors, sought to needlessly arouse fears, attempted psychological manipulation, or otherwise sought to sway WG members on the basis of fear. I further note that other definitions of the term associate it with deception and a desire to instill needless alarm.
As for my Thelma and Louise metaphor, my intent was to humorously conjure up a ready visual image for the concept of this WG voluntarily adopting a "poison pill" amendment that could doom acceptance of its entire work product. I seriously doubt that this cinematic reference instilled fear in any WG member.
A few minutes ago I again repeated the numerous policy arguments and pragmatic process considerations that are the basis for my non-support of Option 1/A and support for Option 2/C. There is no fear mongering in them.
I have spent eleven years as a participant in the ICANN community and have striven to develop a reputation for fact and policy based reasoning. I have been on the winning and losing sides of policy debates, and I have never attempted to smear the reputation, or question the motivation, of a party on the prevailing side. I cannot allow such allegations to stand unchallenged, especially as your allegation that the co-chairs have engaged in "fear mongering" follows upon what I believe to be equally baseless allegations that we have abused our co-chair positions to pressure the WG to deliver a particular policy result.
Any objective review of this WG's meeting transcripts and email list will likely show that you have been accorded more time and words to articulate your views that any other WG member. The policy options that you favored were two of the three options presented for WG consideration on our preliminary consensus call. On our last call I stated that the WG would welcome the submission of additional language relating to Option 2/C from you for WG review and consideration prior to a final consensus call. And you and other supporters of Option 1/A are free to include a Minority Statement in our Final Report if it does not achieve consensus support. In sum, your views have been accorded every procedural right and courtesy in the operation of this WG, and the fact that they have not received consensus support is, in my personal opinion, due to their inherent policy defects and not to any impermissible psychological manipulation undertaken by the co-chairs.
In conclusion, I believe that your allegation of fear mongering is a direct assault upon my character and reputation and a violation of the ICANN Expected Standards of Behavior https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/expected-standards-2016-06-28-en . I will provide you with one last opportunity to retract that allegation. If you do not I will be compelled to seek redress by other available means.
Philip
-----Original Message----- From: Gnso-igo-ingo-crp [mailto:gnso-igo-ingo-crp-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of George Kirikos Sent: Friday, November 17, 2017 4:23 PM To: gnso-igo-ingo-crp@icann.org Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Gnso-igo-ingo-crp] Consolidated results of informal poll constituting preliminary consensus call on Options A-C
Hello,
On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 2:26 PM, Corwin, Philip <pcorwin@verisign.com> wrote:
This co-chair categorically reject your reckless charge that I have engaged in "fear-mongering".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fearmongering
"Fearmongering or scaremongering is the spreading of frightening and exaggerated rumors of an impending danger or the habit or tactic of purposely and needlessly arousing public fear about an issue.[1][2][3] This can take the form of psychological manipulation that uses fear-based tactics (scare tactics) including exaggeration and usually repetition to influence the public in order to achieve a desired outcome.[citation needed] It is a tactic used to scare or put fear into those viewing a campaign/advertisement and influence the outcome based on fear."
You've repeatedly used the "Thelma and Louise" metaphor,
http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2017-October/000872.ht ml
driving off a cliff, that the entire report would get rejected if Option C wasn't selected. These aren't "new facts" or "new analysis" being used to push Option C. They're fear and politics, plain and simple. The "art of the possible", as though this is a negotiation, rather a truth-seeking exercise. I'm not the only one that recognizes this -- see the messages by Paul Keating and Mike Rodenbaugh yesterday:
http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2017-November/000905.h tml http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2017-November/000906.h tml
Please stick to the substance ands stop making reckless and unfounded allegations about others' motivations.
When I have in the past, you've said that:
http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2017-October/000877.ht ml
"I am not going to even begin to attempt a point-by-point response to your extremely long message."
My message you refer to:
http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2017-October/000876.ht ml
is 1,908 words, according to Wordcounter.net. According to Medium.com, the average adult reads at 275 Words Per Minute:
https://help.medium.com/hc/en-us/articles/214991667-Read-time
so apparently a 7 minute long article is "extremely long". Of course, many of us have above average in reading skill, given our higher education, etc. Lawyers (I'm not one) should have especially high reading skills. I contrast those 7 minutes with PDP conference calls that go for 90 minutes week after week after week for 3 years. A claim that those 7 minutes of reading time would make it an "extremely long message" doesn't seem correct to me.
But, let me try to make it easy......just respond to these specific questions:
1. The October 12, 2017 "Options Document" (edited to remove that "error" above) is at:
https://community.icann.org/display/gnsoicrpmpdp/WEBINAR+2017-10-12+IG O-INGO+Access+to+Curative+Rights+Protection+Mechanisms
The very first paragraph claims that:
" Other options that were discussed previously by the Working Group have not been included in this proposal based on the co-chairs’ assessment either that their essential elements have been adapted and incorporated into Options A, B, and/or C (below), or that they were based on an incomplete reading of the applicable rules (i.e. the previous Option 5)."
Where is Option 6 adapted and incorporated into Option C? Here's a reminder of what Option 6 was:
http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2017-July/000811.html
I assert that the options document mislead the working group by falsely stating that Option 6 was adapted and incorporated into the Option C. Yes or no? If Option 6 was adapted and incorporated into Option C, show us where it is in that document.
[while I acknowledge I've been invited to resubmit Option 6 again to this PDP, I want you to acknowledge that the edited October 12, 2017 document makes that false claim above, and thus mislead the working group]
2. There is a long preface (the entire first page of that October 12th document, and the first paragraph of the 2nd page) criticizing Options A and B. Show me just a single statement that is negative towards Option C in that document that was prepared as "co-chairs" (not as individual members with a viewpoint). If you can't identify a single negative statement towards Option C, how is that not a biased document, and a misuse of the positions as co-chairs?
I think those are enough, for now. I wouldn't want to make this email "too long" (under 700 words, so that's less than 3 minutes reading time for an average adult). The answers should be illuminating to this group.
Sincerely,
George Kirikos 416-588-0269 http://www.leap.com/ _______________________________________________ Gnso-igo-ingo-crp mailing list Gnso-igo-ingo-crp@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-igo-ingo-crp
Gnso-igo-ingo-crp mailing list Gnso-igo-ingo-crp@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-igo-ingo-crp
Hello, On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 12:22 PM, Corwin, Philip <pcorwin@verisign.com> wrote:
Thank you for that retraction, George.
I am once again headed to the airport and may have a further response once back home.
Let's focus on facts, questions and answers to arrive at the truth. I asked several in prior emails that received no response: http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2017-November/000914.html [1] " Other options that were discussed previously by the Working Group have not been included in this proposal based on the co-chairs’ assessment either that their essential elements have been adapted and incorporated into Options A, B, and/or C (below), or that they were based on an incomplete reading of the applicable rules (i.e. the previous Option 5)." "Where is Option 6 adapted and incorporated into Option C? Here's a reminder of what Option 6 was: http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2017-July/000811.html I assert that the options document mislead the working group by falsely stating that Option 6 was adapted and incorporated into the Option C. Yes or no? If Option 6 was adapted and incorporated into Option C, show us where it is in that document." Aside: I'll happily resubmit my Option 6 (no idea why I have to resubmit it, since it's already on the record) once the co-chairs fully acknowledge it was taken off the table, despite the document claiming it was incorporated into those new options. [2]...."Show me just a single statement that is negative towards Option C in that document that was prepared as "co-chairs" (not as individual members with a viewpoint). If you can't identify a single negative statement towards Option C, how is that not a biased document, and a misuse of the positions as co-chairs?" And from: http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2017-November/000917.html [3, a brand new number assigned for convenience] "I leave Option C backers with this question --- do you acknowledge that under Option C, arbitration panels might make different rulings than a court would??? Yes or no. If the answer is "Yes", explain to us why that should be acceptable to domain name registrants?" And one that has been implied by the last emails: [4] Isn't it a fact that "Option C" leave IGOs *worse off* than the status quo of doing "nothing"? How is that consistent with the so-called "reasoning" of that group of not singling out IGOs for disparate treatment? Sincerely, George Kirikos 416-588-0269 http://www.leap.com/
participants (2)
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Corwin, Philip -
George Kirikos