George Kirikos analysis of initial consensus designation levels (as of June 11, 2018)
Hi folks, I've done my own analysis, given the problems already identified with the ones done by Staff/Petter/Susan [hereafter just "Staff version"] (which is at: https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2018-June/001264.html ). Reg Levy's own analysis is at: https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2018-June/001266.html [although the version on the web is poorly formatted; I suggest if PDP members want to view it more easily, they refer back to the one in their mailbox; conceivably it can be turned into a PDF and then resent to the list to be archives, so that others viewing the web archive can read it more easily] A Google Sheets version is at: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQgB2sY5AgaBZUHsHJJPLIsAwTFj... (updates every 5 minutes, if I make changes) and a PDF is attached that is captured as of just before this email. I would suggest Staff add those both to the Wiki for tomorrow's call, so they can be referenced. As you can see, I took more a nuanced view of the input, rather than a black/white (Support/Do Not Support) that Petter/Susan/Staff did. Reg's was also more nuanced, but only looked at the options in relation to Recommendation #5 (I looked at everything). I also took into account Mike Rodenbaugh's input (Reg didn't, that's why she has 14 rows, and I have 15). I also took into account Paul Keating's input from the May 10, 2018 phone call (where he opposed subsidies, i.e. opposed recommendation #4). And I also captured emails up to now (Jim Bikoff's apparent change of position is a bit confusing, so question marks there). I also made inferences for Options #1 through #6 of Recommendation 5 for Osvaldo and Crystal -- but left out any inferences for Recommendations 1 through 4 when there was no direct response for everyone] Anyhow, here's what my analysis suggests: A] Recommendation 1: (staff says "FULL CONSENSUS") I think full consensus is achievable, but the wording needs to be slightly changed (i.e. see the comments of myself and Zak, echoed by Nat/Jay), i.e. add the word "substantive". If we look at the text which staff sent out today, they've already added the word "Substantive", so I think we're all in sync on that (compare to Petter's version sent out on Saturday night which had the original text, which didn't include the word 'substantive'). B] Recommendation 2: (staffs says "CONSENSUS") I think consensus is achievable, if we clarify the text. The text got partially changed already (staff version of today, compared with Petter's from Saturday), but as I noted earlier today: https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2018-June/001267.html they only did half the changes. C] Recommendation 3: (staff says "FULL CONSENSUS") I've got this marked as "CONSENSUS", because I have Jim Bikoff marked as no support, based on his email at: https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2018-June/001256.html D] Recommendation 4: (staff says "CONSENSUS") This is one the trickier ones. I think Consensus might be achievable, if we clarify the text. But, it might end up being "STRONG SUPPORT WITH SIGNIFICANT OPPOSITION". Right now, it's hard to tell. As I noted above, I've captured Paul Keating's input on this issue, which he's expressed on phone calls. E] Recommendation 5: Option #1 (staff says "CONSENSUS") I agree, it appears to be consensus (even with the implied opposition of Osvaldo that I record, but differ on staff with; we agree on all supporters, although I mark Mike Rodenbaugh as a "yellow" instead of a "green" (would be ok with, rather than "support"). F] Recommendation 5: Option #2 (staff says "NO CONSENSUS / DIVERGENCE") I agree. G] Recommendation 5: Option #3 (staff says "MINORITY VIEW (WITH CONSENUS AGAINST THIS OPTION) I agree. H] Recommendation 5: Option #4: (staff says "CONSENSUS") I think this one's unclear. I think it's either consensus (but a smaller one than Option #1), OR it is Strong Support But Significant Opposition. Unlike Staff, I base this on implied "No" from Crystal and Osvaldo, and non-binary "conditional support" from Jim and Reg, as well as the rank preferences from others in Option #1] I] Recommendation 5: Option #5: (staff says "NO CONSENSUS/DIVERGENCE") I agree. J] Recommendation 5: Option #6 (staff says ""STRONG SUPPORT BUT SIGNIFICANT OPPOSITION") I've got it marked as No Consensus / Divergence, because I treat Crystal/Osvaldo differently than staff (I infer an implied "No"). Also I treat Reg differently too (non-binary). If anyone feels I've interpreted their input incorrectly, please let me know. As for moving forward (I still maintain we need more time), here are some constructive suggestions: 1. "finalize" (subject to a big review before the final report, in case someone missed something big) some of the text that has changed in Recommendation #1 & #2 (which has been changed, implicitly there's agreement, but we should get everyone explicitly on board) 2. Separate out Recommendation 4 (subsidies, etc.) for further discussion. Either agree to change in the recommendation itself (text), or have a more formal survey just separately on that issue (since there were some non-responses) 3. For Recommendation 5, I'd suggest marking Options #2, #3 and #5 as "dead", and concluded determined designations as what they were listed at -- staff and I agree; although others might raise objections] 4. For Recommendation 5, Option #6, I would make a "friendly" amendment for Paul T. Since Option #6 is really just the same (essentially as mediation + Option #1), I would suggest that we isolate things to break the linkage to Option #1 i.e. I would suggest that we create an entirely separate "Recommendation 6" which *only* had the mediation aspect. Then, folks can support/oppose the mediation aspect by itself, without the implicit linkage to Option #1. . Currently, staff doesn't have it reaching "Consensus" a notch below that, and I have it even weaker. 5. For Recommendation 5, Options #1 and #4 -- here the idea of "rank" really should come into play. Having both accepted might be considered "weird". i.e. Option #1 gives a solution to the problem now, but then Option #4 says "we're not going to solve the problem now, we're going to send it to the RPM PDP"). Those are my thoughts for now. Sincerely, George Kirikos 416-588-0269 http://www.leap.com/
NB: Actually, Reg's version does try to look at all 6 options. I'll have to look at it more carefully, as it's a bit jumbled on my printout. Reg's version isn't capturing my input correctly, though. I do support Recommendation 3 (I think she mixed up Rec 3 with Option 3 of Recommendation 6). I don't know what to make of the columns 5 and 6, where I'm marked as "Y" for both, when it's really for Option #5 and Option #6. There's data missing essentially, because of confusion between "Options" and "Recommendations" and the numbering of both. She might want to try to reconcile her analysis with that of staff and/or my own. As I suggested elsewhere, in the future we might want to renumber everything, to reduce confusion. i.e. Recommendation 1 -----> Recommendation A Recommendation 2 -----> Recommendation B Recommendation 3 -----> Recommendation C Recommendation 4-----> Recommendation D Recommendation 5 -----> Recommendation E and then keep #1 through #6 numbering only in a newly labelled "Recommendation E" Or alternatively, keep the recommendation numbering, and change the Options in Recommendation #5 to: Option #1 ----> Option A Option #2 ----> Option B Option #3 ----> Option C Option #4 ----> Option D Option #5 ----> Option E Option #6 ----> Option F Sincerely, Sincerely, George Kirikos 416-588-0269 http://www.leap.com/ On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 11:05 PM, George Kirikos <icann@leap.com> wrote:
Hi folks,
I've done my own analysis, given the problems already identified with the ones done by Staff/Petter/Susan [hereafter just "Staff version"] (which is at: https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2018-June/001264.html ).
Reg Levy's own analysis is at: https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2018-June/001266.html [although the version on the web is poorly formatted; I suggest if PDP members want to view it more easily, they refer back to the one in their mailbox; conceivably it can be turned into a PDF and then resent to the list to be archives, so that others viewing the web archive can read it more easily]
A Google Sheets version is at:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQgB2sY5AgaBZUHsHJJPLIsAwTFj... (updates every 5 minutes, if I make changes)
and a PDF is attached that is captured as of just before this email. I would suggest Staff add those both to the Wiki for tomorrow's call, so they can be referenced.
As you can see, I took more a nuanced view of the input, rather than a black/white (Support/Do Not Support) that Petter/Susan/Staff did. Reg's was also more nuanced, but only looked at the options in relation to Recommendation #5 (I looked at everything). I also took into account Mike Rodenbaugh's input (Reg didn't, that's why she has 14 rows, and I have 15). I also took into account Paul Keating's input from the May 10, 2018 phone call (where he opposed subsidies, i.e. opposed recommendation #4). And I also captured emails up to now (Jim Bikoff's apparent change of position is a bit confusing, so question marks there). I also made inferences for Options #1 through #6 of Recommendation 5 for Osvaldo and Crystal -- but left out any inferences for Recommendations 1 through 4 when there was no direct response for everyone]
Anyhow, here's what my analysis suggests:
A] Recommendation 1: (staff says "FULL CONSENSUS")
I think full consensus is achievable, but the wording needs to be slightly changed (i.e. see the comments of myself and Zak, echoed by Nat/Jay), i.e. add the word "substantive". If we look at the text which staff sent out today, they've already added the word "Substantive", so I think we're all in sync on that (compare to Petter's version sent out on Saturday night which had the original text, which didn't include the word 'substantive').
B] Recommendation 2: (staffs says "CONSENSUS")
I think consensus is achievable, if we clarify the text. The text got partially changed already (staff version of today, compared with Petter's from Saturday), but as I noted earlier today:
https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2018-June/001267.html
they only did half the changes.
C] Recommendation 3: (staff says "FULL CONSENSUS")
I've got this marked as "CONSENSUS", because I have Jim Bikoff marked as no support, based on his email at: https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2018-June/001256.html
D] Recommendation 4: (staff says "CONSENSUS")
This is one the trickier ones. I think Consensus might be achievable, if we clarify the text. But, it might end up being "STRONG SUPPORT WITH SIGNIFICANT OPPOSITION". Right now, it's hard to tell. As I noted above, I've captured Paul Keating's input on this issue, which he's expressed on phone calls.
E] Recommendation 5: Option #1 (staff says "CONSENSUS")
I agree, it appears to be consensus (even with the implied opposition of Osvaldo that I record, but differ on staff with; we agree on all supporters, although I mark Mike Rodenbaugh as a "yellow" instead of a "green" (would be ok with, rather than "support").
F] Recommendation 5: Option #2 (staff says "NO CONSENSUS / DIVERGENCE")
I agree.
G] Recommendation 5: Option #3 (staff says "MINORITY VIEW (WITH CONSENUS AGAINST THIS OPTION)
I agree.
H] Recommendation 5: Option #4: (staff says "CONSENSUS")
I think this one's unclear. I think it's either consensus (but a smaller one than Option #1), OR it is Strong Support But Significant Opposition. Unlike Staff, I base this on implied "No" from Crystal and Osvaldo, and non-binary "conditional support" from Jim and Reg, as well as the rank preferences from others in Option #1]
I] Recommendation 5: Option #5: (staff says "NO CONSENSUS/DIVERGENCE")
I agree.
J] Recommendation 5: Option #6 (staff says ""STRONG SUPPORT BUT SIGNIFICANT OPPOSITION")
I've got it marked as No Consensus / Divergence, because I treat Crystal/Osvaldo differently than staff (I infer an implied "No"). Also I treat Reg differently too (non-binary).
If anyone feels I've interpreted their input incorrectly, please let me know.
As for moving forward (I still maintain we need more time), here are some constructive suggestions:
1. "finalize" (subject to a big review before the final report, in case someone missed something big) some of the text that has changed in Recommendation #1 & #2 (which has been changed, implicitly there's agreement, but we should get everyone explicitly on board)
2. Separate out Recommendation 4 (subsidies, etc.) for further discussion. Either agree to change in the recommendation itself (text), or have a more formal survey just separately on that issue (since there were some non-responses)
3. For Recommendation 5, I'd suggest marking Options #2, #3 and #5 as "dead", and concluded determined designations as what they were listed at -- staff and I agree; although others might raise objections]
4. For Recommendation 5, Option #6, I would make a "friendly" amendment for Paul T. Since Option #6 is really just the same (essentially as mediation + Option #1), I would suggest that we isolate things to break the linkage to Option #1 i.e. I would suggest that we create an entirely separate "Recommendation 6" which *only* had the mediation aspect. Then, folks can support/oppose the mediation aspect by itself, without the implicit linkage to Option #1. . Currently, staff doesn't have it reaching "Consensus" a notch below that, and I have it even weaker.
5. For Recommendation 5, Options #1 and #4 -- here the idea of "rank" really should come into play. Having both accepted might be considered "weird". i.e. Option #1 gives a solution to the problem now, but then Option #4 says "we're not going to solve the problem now, we're going to send it to the RPM PDP").
Those are my thoughts for now.
Sincerely,
George Kirikos 416-588-0269 http://www.leap.com/
Apologies, I forgot to attach the PDF version of the Google sheets document. It's attached now. Sincerely, George Kirikos 416-588-0269 http://www.leap.com/ On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 11:05 PM, George Kirikos <icann@leap.com> wrote:
Hi folks,
I've done my own analysis, given the problems already identified with the ones done by Staff/Petter/Susan [hereafter just "Staff version"] (which is at: https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2018-June/001264.html ).
Reg Levy's own analysis is at: https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2018-June/001266.html [although the version on the web is poorly formatted; I suggest if PDP members want to view it more easily, they refer back to the one in their mailbox; conceivably it can be turned into a PDF and then resent to the list to be archives, so that others viewing the web archive can read it more easily]
A Google Sheets version is at:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQgB2sY5AgaBZUHsHJJPLIsAwTFj... (updates every 5 minutes, if I make changes)
and a PDF is attached that is captured as of just before this email. I would suggest Staff add those both to the Wiki for tomorrow's call, so they can be referenced.
As you can see, I took more a nuanced view of the input, rather than a black/white (Support/Do Not Support) that Petter/Susan/Staff did. Reg's was also more nuanced, but only looked at the options in relation to Recommendation #5 (I looked at everything). I also took into account Mike Rodenbaugh's input (Reg didn't, that's why she has 14 rows, and I have 15). I also took into account Paul Keating's input from the May 10, 2018 phone call (where he opposed subsidies, i.e. opposed recommendation #4). And I also captured emails up to now (Jim Bikoff's apparent change of position is a bit confusing, so question marks there). I also made inferences for Options #1 through #6 of Recommendation 5 for Osvaldo and Crystal -- but left out any inferences for Recommendations 1 through 4 when there was no direct response for everyone]
Anyhow, here's what my analysis suggests:
A] Recommendation 1: (staff says "FULL CONSENSUS")
I think full consensus is achievable, but the wording needs to be slightly changed (i.e. see the comments of myself and Zak, echoed by Nat/Jay), i.e. add the word "substantive". If we look at the text which staff sent out today, they've already added the word "Substantive", so I think we're all in sync on that (compare to Petter's version sent out on Saturday night which had the original text, which didn't include the word 'substantive').
B] Recommendation 2: (staffs says "CONSENSUS")
I think consensus is achievable, if we clarify the text. The text got partially changed already (staff version of today, compared with Petter's from Saturday), but as I noted earlier today:
https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2018-June/001267.html
they only did half the changes.
C] Recommendation 3: (staff says "FULL CONSENSUS")
I've got this marked as "CONSENSUS", because I have Jim Bikoff marked as no support, based on his email at: https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2018-June/001256.html
D] Recommendation 4: (staff says "CONSENSUS")
This is one the trickier ones. I think Consensus might be achievable, if we clarify the text. But, it might end up being "STRONG SUPPORT WITH SIGNIFICANT OPPOSITION". Right now, it's hard to tell. As I noted above, I've captured Paul Keating's input on this issue, which he's expressed on phone calls.
E] Recommendation 5: Option #1 (staff says "CONSENSUS")
I agree, it appears to be consensus (even with the implied opposition of Osvaldo that I record, but differ on staff with; we agree on all supporters, although I mark Mike Rodenbaugh as a "yellow" instead of a "green" (would be ok with, rather than "support").
F] Recommendation 5: Option #2 (staff says "NO CONSENSUS / DIVERGENCE")
I agree.
G] Recommendation 5: Option #3 (staff says "MINORITY VIEW (WITH CONSENUS AGAINST THIS OPTION)
I agree.
H] Recommendation 5: Option #4: (staff says "CONSENSUS")
I think this one's unclear. I think it's either consensus (but a smaller one than Option #1), OR it is Strong Support But Significant Opposition. Unlike Staff, I base this on implied "No" from Crystal and Osvaldo, and non-binary "conditional support" from Jim and Reg, as well as the rank preferences from others in Option #1]
I] Recommendation 5: Option #5: (staff says "NO CONSENSUS/DIVERGENCE")
I agree.
J] Recommendation 5: Option #6 (staff says ""STRONG SUPPORT BUT SIGNIFICANT OPPOSITION")
I've got it marked as No Consensus / Divergence, because I treat Crystal/Osvaldo differently than staff (I infer an implied "No"). Also I treat Reg differently too (non-binary).
If anyone feels I've interpreted their input incorrectly, please let me know.
As for moving forward (I still maintain we need more time), here are some constructive suggestions:
1. "finalize" (subject to a big review before the final report, in case someone missed something big) some of the text that has changed in Recommendation #1 & #2 (which has been changed, implicitly there's agreement, but we should get everyone explicitly on board)
2. Separate out Recommendation 4 (subsidies, etc.) for further discussion. Either agree to change in the recommendation itself (text), or have a more formal survey just separately on that issue (since there were some non-responses)
3. For Recommendation 5, I'd suggest marking Options #2, #3 and #5 as "dead", and concluded determined designations as what they were listed at -- staff and I agree; although others might raise objections]
4. For Recommendation 5, Option #6, I would make a "friendly" amendment for Paul T. Since Option #6 is really just the same (essentially as mediation + Option #1), I would suggest that we isolate things to break the linkage to Option #1 i.e. I would suggest that we create an entirely separate "Recommendation 6" which *only* had the mediation aspect. Then, folks can support/oppose the mediation aspect by itself, without the implicit linkage to Option #1. . Currently, staff doesn't have it reaching "Consensus" a notch below that, and I have it even weaker.
5. For Recommendation 5, Options #1 and #4 -- here the idea of "rank" really should come into play. Having both accepted might be considered "weird". i.e. Option #1 gives a solution to the problem now, but then Option #4 says "we're not going to solve the problem now, we're going to send it to the RPM PDP").
Those are my thoughts for now.
Sincerely,
George Kirikos 416-588-0269 http://www.leap.com/
Hi folks, After consulting with Jim Bikoff off-list, I've updated my spreadsheet to remove the question marks (got those ones right, so they didn't change from before), and fixed a typo [from "Does" to "Doesn't"] which didn't actually change any of the analysis (that cell was Yellow, so I assessed it correctly, just didn't notice the typo until now). The web link updates automatically: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQgB2sY5AgaBZUHsHJJPLIsAwTFj... (every 5 minutes) but some might prefer the PDF. Bedtime for me. Sincerely, George Kirikos 416-588-0269 http://www.leap.com/ On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 11:24 PM, George Kirikos <icann@leap.com> wrote:
Apologies, I forgot to attach the PDF version of the Google sheets document. It's attached now.
Sincerely,
George Kirikos 416-588-0269 http://www.leap.com/
On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 11:05 PM, George Kirikos <icann@leap.com> wrote:
Hi folks,
I've done my own analysis, given the problems already identified with the ones done by Staff/Petter/Susan [hereafter just "Staff version"] (which is at: https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2018-June/001264.html ).
Reg Levy's own analysis is at: https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2018-June/001266.html [although the version on the web is poorly formatted; I suggest if PDP members want to view it more easily, they refer back to the one in their mailbox; conceivably it can be turned into a PDF and then resent to the list to be archives, so that others viewing the web archive can read it more easily]
A Google Sheets version is at:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQgB2sY5AgaBZUHsHJJPLIsAwTFj... (updates every 5 minutes, if I make changes)
and a PDF is attached that is captured as of just before this email. I would suggest Staff add those both to the Wiki for tomorrow's call, so they can be referenced.
As you can see, I took more a nuanced view of the input, rather than a black/white (Support/Do Not Support) that Petter/Susan/Staff did. Reg's was also more nuanced, but only looked at the options in relation to Recommendation #5 (I looked at everything). I also took into account Mike Rodenbaugh's input (Reg didn't, that's why she has 14 rows, and I have 15). I also took into account Paul Keating's input from the May 10, 2018 phone call (where he opposed subsidies, i.e. opposed recommendation #4). And I also captured emails up to now (Jim Bikoff's apparent change of position is a bit confusing, so question marks there). I also made inferences for Options #1 through #6 of Recommendation 5 for Osvaldo and Crystal -- but left out any inferences for Recommendations 1 through 4 when there was no direct response for everyone]
Anyhow, here's what my analysis suggests:
A] Recommendation 1: (staff says "FULL CONSENSUS")
I think full consensus is achievable, but the wording needs to be slightly changed (i.e. see the comments of myself and Zak, echoed by Nat/Jay), i.e. add the word "substantive". If we look at the text which staff sent out today, they've already added the word "Substantive", so I think we're all in sync on that (compare to Petter's version sent out on Saturday night which had the original text, which didn't include the word 'substantive').
B] Recommendation 2: (staffs says "CONSENSUS")
I think consensus is achievable, if we clarify the text. The text got partially changed already (staff version of today, compared with Petter's from Saturday), but as I noted earlier today:
https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2018-June/001267.html
they only did half the changes.
C] Recommendation 3: (staff says "FULL CONSENSUS")
I've got this marked as "CONSENSUS", because I have Jim Bikoff marked as no support, based on his email at: https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2018-June/001256.html
D] Recommendation 4: (staff says "CONSENSUS")
This is one the trickier ones. I think Consensus might be achievable, if we clarify the text. But, it might end up being "STRONG SUPPORT WITH SIGNIFICANT OPPOSITION". Right now, it's hard to tell. As I noted above, I've captured Paul Keating's input on this issue, which he's expressed on phone calls.
E] Recommendation 5: Option #1 (staff says "CONSENSUS")
I agree, it appears to be consensus (even with the implied opposition of Osvaldo that I record, but differ on staff with; we agree on all supporters, although I mark Mike Rodenbaugh as a "yellow" instead of a "green" (would be ok with, rather than "support").
F] Recommendation 5: Option #2 (staff says "NO CONSENSUS / DIVERGENCE")
I agree.
G] Recommendation 5: Option #3 (staff says "MINORITY VIEW (WITH CONSENUS AGAINST THIS OPTION)
I agree.
H] Recommendation 5: Option #4: (staff says "CONSENSUS")
I think this one's unclear. I think it's either consensus (but a smaller one than Option #1), OR it is Strong Support But Significant Opposition. Unlike Staff, I base this on implied "No" from Crystal and Osvaldo, and non-binary "conditional support" from Jim and Reg, as well as the rank preferences from others in Option #1]
I] Recommendation 5: Option #5: (staff says "NO CONSENSUS/DIVERGENCE")
I agree.
J] Recommendation 5: Option #6 (staff says ""STRONG SUPPORT BUT SIGNIFICANT OPPOSITION")
I've got it marked as No Consensus / Divergence, because I treat Crystal/Osvaldo differently than staff (I infer an implied "No"). Also I treat Reg differently too (non-binary).
If anyone feels I've interpreted their input incorrectly, please let me know.
As for moving forward (I still maintain we need more time), here are some constructive suggestions:
1. "finalize" (subject to a big review before the final report, in case someone missed something big) some of the text that has changed in Recommendation #1 & #2 (which has been changed, implicitly there's agreement, but we should get everyone explicitly on board)
2. Separate out Recommendation 4 (subsidies, etc.) for further discussion. Either agree to change in the recommendation itself (text), or have a more formal survey just separately on that issue (since there were some non-responses)
3. For Recommendation 5, I'd suggest marking Options #2, #3 and #5 as "dead", and concluded determined designations as what they were listed at -- staff and I agree; although others might raise objections]
4. For Recommendation 5, Option #6, I would make a "friendly" amendment for Paul T. Since Option #6 is really just the same (essentially as mediation + Option #1), I would suggest that we isolate things to break the linkage to Option #1 i.e. I would suggest that we create an entirely separate "Recommendation 6" which *only* had the mediation aspect. Then, folks can support/oppose the mediation aspect by itself, without the implicit linkage to Option #1. . Currently, staff doesn't have it reaching "Consensus" a notch below that, and I have it even weaker.
5. For Recommendation 5, Options #1 and #4 -- here the idea of "rank" really should come into play. Having both accepted might be considered "weird". i.e. Option #1 gives a solution to the problem now, but then Option #4 says "we're not going to solve the problem now, we're going to send it to the RPM PDP").
Those are my thoughts for now.
Sincerely,
George Kirikos 416-588-0269 http://www.leap.com/
George's attached spreadsheet is very illuminating. All of the problems that this working group has had can be attributed to a single word in row 6 columns 8, 9 & 10 - “strongly”. This is the root of ALL of the problems this working group has had. It is a misplaced sense of self belief combined with an opportunity for a disgusting sustained manipulation of process to try and force through an incredibly stupid personal view on the world at all costs that has squandered months of everyone’s time. Whilst the working group will likely come to the correct conclusion and reject the inelegant and deceptive slight of hand of option #3, because of a single person’s persistent attempt to stifle all discussion on alternative view points we now have a final report which is not sufficiently robust to support the working group's consensus derived positions. Swaine is clearly wrong and it is the continuing deference to the flawed thinking in his “expert report” that has contributed to option #3 continuing to survive as long as it has.Therefore, I believe we need to set out very clearly the reasoning on Swaine’s incorrect assumptions and that reasoning should be included in the final report to support the working group’s conclusions otherwise we run the risk of having those above with a political rather than honest agenda alleging our conclusions can not be substantiated. For this reason I would like to formally request that the reasoning below is included in the final report. If it is not possible to include colours please let me know and I will reformat the text accordingly. Thank you. https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=56131791 which is marked final and dated 6/17/2016.
From that document:
*“3. Discussion (Bottom of page 8) The core question is whether an IGO is “entitled to immunity,” but the baseline assumptions may be disaggregated. The scope of IGO immunity would most clearly be at issue if the Mutual Jurisdiction provision were irrelevant and the IGO had not itself initiated judicial proceedings, since that would risk waiving any immunity to which it may be entitled, including to counterclaims. 20 This might be the case, for example, if a domain-name registrant sought a declaratory judgment against an IGO in relation to some actual or potential infringement. 21 That scenario, though not otherwise of concern here, does usefully isolate the question as to whether an IGO has a legitimate expectation that it would be entitled to immunity absent the UDRP. If such immunity is minimal or uncertain, then any compromises required by the UDRP loom less large; if the IGO would otherwise be entitled to immunity, however, its potential sacrifice seems more substantial. As explained in Part A, the answer depends. IGOs generally enjoy immunity under international law, but different jurisdictions apply the law differently, and even within the same jurisdiction different IGOs may be treated differently. Part B then introduces the complication that any such immunity may be waived through the Mutual Jurisdiction provision, and affording such waiver is not the same thing as violating an IGO’s immunity. Part C then discusses alternative ways to resolve the situation. … “* Green Initiating proceedings waives immunity including counterclaims Blue Scenario (a) below Red Transfers those rights of scenario (a) to scenario (b) The rest of the memo is then based on the incorrect assumption that rights can be transferred between the two scenarios. *Proof* Absent UDRP there are two possible ways the immunity question could come before a court: (a) A TM owner seeks to acquire a domain which an IGO has registered (b) An IGO seeks to acquire a domain which a domain registrant has registered In (a) the IGO would be entitled to raise an immunity defence In (b) the IGO would be required to waive immunity for the court to consider the matter. As the UDRP is an administrative procedure to help take less complex cases out of the judicial system if UDRP is to afford the same protections as any other forum then UDRP needs to take into account both cases. (a) A TM owner seeks to acquire a domain which an IGO has registered by bringing a UDRP (b) An IGO seeks to acquire a domain which a domain registrant has registered by bringing a UDRP *Conclusion * The working group has not considered (a) which hides the fact that in (b) an IGO is never entitled to jurisdictional immunity after choosing to initiate proceedings. The incorrect Swaine reasoning introduces irrelevant complexity which confuses rather than clarifies and should therefore have no place in the working group’s final report. [for those without colours here is an earlier link to a formatted .pdf version of the above reasoning http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/attachments/20180514/4478858... ] On Tue, Jun 12, 2018 at 7:01 AM, George Kirikos <icann@leap.com> wrote:
Hi folks,
After consulting with Jim Bikoff off-list, I've updated my spreadsheet to remove the question marks (got those ones right, so they didn't change from before), and fixed a typo [from "Does" to "Doesn't"] which didn't actually change any of the analysis (that cell was Yellow, so I assessed it correctly, just didn't notice the typo until now).
The web link updates automatically:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX- 1vQgB2sY5AgaBZUHsHJJPLIsAwTFj-0i3FsammN5q-iD1QCQ_EMBC8LTzZ30TGvrf6Fw_ mUvlnHa9DV9/pubhtml
(every 5 minutes) but some might prefer the PDF.
Bedtime for me.
Sincerely,
George Kirikos 416-588-0269 http://www.leap.com/
On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 11:24 PM, George Kirikos <icann@leap.com> wrote:
Apologies, I forgot to attach the PDF version of the Google sheets document. It's attached now.
Sincerely,
George Kirikos 416-588-0269 http://www.leap.com/
On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 11:05 PM, George Kirikos <icann@leap.com> wrote:
Hi folks,
I've done my own analysis, given the problems already identified with the ones done by Staff/Petter/Susan [hereafter just "Staff version"] (which is at: https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/ 2018-June/001264.html ).
Reg Levy's own analysis is at: https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2018-June/001266.html [although the version on the web is poorly formatted; I suggest if PDP members want to view it more easily, they refer back to the one in their mailbox; conceivably it can be turned into a PDF and then resent to the list to be archives, so that others viewing the web archive can read it more easily]
A Google Sheets version is at:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX- 1vQgB2sY5AgaBZUHsHJJPLIsAwTFj-0i3FsammN5q-iD1QCQ_EMBC8LTzZ30TGvrf6Fw_ mUvlnHa9DV9/pubhtml (updates every 5 minutes, if I make changes)
and a PDF is attached that is captured as of just before this email. I would suggest Staff add those both to the Wiki for tomorrow's call, so they can be referenced.
As you can see, I took more a nuanced view of the input, rather than a black/white (Support/Do Not Support) that Petter/Susan/Staff did. Reg's was also more nuanced, but only looked at the options in relation to Recommendation #5 (I looked at everything). I also took into account Mike Rodenbaugh's input (Reg didn't, that's why she has 14 rows, and I have 15). I also took into account Paul Keating's input from the May 10, 2018 phone call (where he opposed subsidies, i.e. opposed recommendation #4). And I also captured emails up to now (Jim Bikoff's apparent change of position is a bit confusing, so question marks there). I also made inferences for Options #1 through #6 of Recommendation 5 for Osvaldo and Crystal -- but left out any inferences for Recommendations 1 through 4 when there was no direct response for everyone]
Anyhow, here's what my analysis suggests:
A] Recommendation 1: (staff says "FULL CONSENSUS")
I think full consensus is achievable, but the wording needs to be slightly changed (i.e. see the comments of myself and Zak, echoed by Nat/Jay), i.e. add the word "substantive". If we look at the text which staff sent out today, they've already added the word "Substantive", so I think we're all in sync on that (compare to Petter's version sent out on Saturday night which had the original text, which didn't include the word 'substantive').
B] Recommendation 2: (staffs says "CONSENSUS")
I think consensus is achievable, if we clarify the text. The text got partially changed already (staff version of today, compared with Petter's from Saturday), but as I noted earlier today:
https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2018-June/001267.html
they only did half the changes.
C] Recommendation 3: (staff says "FULL CONSENSUS")
I've got this marked as "CONSENSUS", because I have Jim Bikoff marked as no support, based on his email at: https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2018-June/001256.html
D] Recommendation 4: (staff says "CONSENSUS")
This is one the trickier ones. I think Consensus might be achievable, if we clarify the text. But, it might end up being "STRONG SUPPORT WITH SIGNIFICANT OPPOSITION". Right now, it's hard to tell. As I noted above, I've captured Paul Keating's input on this issue, which he's expressed on phone calls.
E] Recommendation 5: Option #1 (staff says "CONSENSUS")
I agree, it appears to be consensus (even with the implied opposition of Osvaldo that I record, but differ on staff with; we agree on all supporters, although I mark Mike Rodenbaugh as a "yellow" instead of a "green" (would be ok with, rather than "support").
F] Recommendation 5: Option #2 (staff says "NO CONSENSUS / DIVERGENCE")
I agree.
G] Recommendation 5: Option #3 (staff says "MINORITY VIEW (WITH CONSENUS AGAINST THIS OPTION)
I agree.
H] Recommendation 5: Option #4: (staff says "CONSENSUS")
I think this one's unclear. I think it's either consensus (but a smaller one than Option #1), OR it is Strong Support But Significant Opposition. Unlike Staff, I base this on implied "No" from Crystal and Osvaldo, and non-binary "conditional support" from Jim and Reg, as well as the rank preferences from others in Option #1]
I] Recommendation 5: Option #5: (staff says "NO CONSENSUS/DIVERGENCE")
I agree.
J] Recommendation 5: Option #6 (staff says ""STRONG SUPPORT BUT SIGNIFICANT OPPOSITION")
I've got it marked as No Consensus / Divergence, because I treat Crystal/Osvaldo differently than staff (I infer an implied "No"). Also I treat Reg differently too (non-binary).
If anyone feels I've interpreted their input incorrectly, please let me know.
As for moving forward (I still maintain we need more time), here are some constructive suggestions:
1. "finalize" (subject to a big review before the final report, in case someone missed something big) some of the text that has changed in Recommendation #1 & #2 (which has been changed, implicitly there's agreement, but we should get everyone explicitly on board)
2. Separate out Recommendation 4 (subsidies, etc.) for further discussion. Either agree to change in the recommendation itself (text), or have a more formal survey just separately on that issue (since there were some non-responses)
3. For Recommendation 5, I'd suggest marking Options #2, #3 and #5 as "dead", and concluded determined designations as what they were listed at -- staff and I agree; although others might raise objections]
4. For Recommendation 5, Option #6, I would make a "friendly" amendment for Paul T. Since Option #6 is really just the same (essentially as mediation + Option #1), I would suggest that we isolate things to break the linkage to Option #1 i.e. I would suggest that we create an entirely separate "Recommendation 6" which *only* had the mediation aspect. Then, folks can support/oppose the mediation aspect by itself, without the implicit linkage to Option #1. . Currently, staff doesn't have it reaching "Consensus" a notch below that, and I have it even weaker.
5. For Recommendation 5, Options #1 and #4 -- here the idea of "rank" really should come into play. Having both accepted might be considered "weird". i.e. Option #1 gives a solution to the problem now, but then Option #4 says "we're not going to solve the problem now, we're going to send it to the RPM PDP").
Those are my thoughts for now.
Sincerely,
George Kirikos 416-588-0269 http://www.leap.com/
_______________________________________________ Gnso-igo-ingo-crp mailing list Gnso-igo-ingo-crp@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-igo-ingo-crp
I obviously agree with Paul T that (among other things), "we now have a final report which is not sufficiently robust to support the working group's consensus derived positions." That's why I think it's so important to invest the time to put the correct supporting text into the document. That can't be done by June 17th, given today is the 12th. Breakfast time for me.....see you all later today on the call (I'm happy it'll be on Adobe Connect again, yippee! WebEx sucks). Sincerely, George Kirikos 416-588-0269 http://www.leap.com/ On Tue, Jun 12, 2018 at 6:54 AM, Paul Tattersfield <gpmgroup@gmail.com> wrote:
George's attached spreadsheet is very illuminating.
All of the problems that this working group has had can be attributed to a single word in row 6 columns 8, 9 & 10 - “strongly”. This is the root of ALL of the problems this working group has had.
It is a misplaced sense of self belief combined with an opportunity for a disgusting sustained manipulation of process to try and force through an incredibly stupid personal view on the world at all costs that has squandered months of everyone’s time.
Whilst the working group will likely come to the correct conclusion and reject the inelegant and deceptive slight of hand of option #3, because of a single person’s persistent attempt to stifle all discussion on alternative view points we now have a final report which is not sufficiently robust to support the working group's consensus derived positions.
Swaine is clearly wrong and it is the continuing deference to the flawed thinking in his “expert report” that has contributed to option #3 continuing to survive as long as it has.Therefore, I believe we need to set out very clearly the reasoning on Swaine’s incorrect assumptions and that reasoning should be included in the final report to support the working group’s conclusions otherwise we run the risk of having those above with a political rather than honest agenda alleging our conclusions can not be substantiated.
For this reason I would like to formally request that the reasoning below is included in the final report. If it is not possible to include colours please let me know and I will reformat the text accordingly.
Thank you.
https://community.icann.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=56131791 which is marked final and dated 6/17/2016.
From that document:
“3. Discussion (Bottom of page 8)
The core question is whether an IGO is “entitled to immunity,” but the baseline assumptions may be disaggregated. The scope of IGO immunity would most clearly be at issue if the Mutual Jurisdiction provision were irrelevant and the IGO had not itself initiated judicial proceedings, since that would risk waiving any immunity to which it may be entitled, including to counterclaims. 20 This might be the case, for example, if a domain-name registrant sought a declaratory judgment against an IGO in relation to some actual or potential infringement. 21 That scenario, though not otherwise of concern here, does usefully isolate the question as to whether an IGO has a legitimate expectation that it would be entitled to immunity absent the UDRP. If such immunity is minimal or uncertain, then any compromises required by the UDRP loom less large; if the IGO would otherwise be entitled to immunity, however, its potential sacrifice seems more substantial.
As explained in Part A, the answer depends. IGOs generally enjoy immunity under international law, but different jurisdictions apply the law differently, and even within the same jurisdiction different IGOs may be treated differently. Part B then introduces the complication that any such immunity may be waived through the Mutual Jurisdiction provision, and affording such waiver is not the same thing as violating an IGO’s immunity. Part C then discusses alternative ways to resolve the situation. … “
Green Initiating proceedings waives immunity including counterclaims Blue Scenario (a) below Red Transfers those rights of scenario (a) to scenario (b)
The rest of the memo is then based on the incorrect assumption that rights can be transferred between the two scenarios.
Proof
Absent UDRP there are two possible ways the immunity question could come before a court:
(a) A TM owner seeks to acquire a domain which an IGO has registered (b) An IGO seeks to acquire a domain which a domain registrant has registered
In (a) the IGO would be entitled to raise an immunity defence In (b) the IGO would be required to waive immunity for the court to consider the matter.
As the UDRP is an administrative procedure to help take less complex cases out of the judicial system if UDRP is to afford the same protections as any other forum then UDRP needs to take into account both cases.
(a) A TM owner seeks to acquire a domain which an IGO has registered by bringing a UDRP (b) An IGO seeks to acquire a domain which a domain registrant has registered by bringing a UDRP
Conclusion
The working group has not considered (a) which hides the fact that in (b) an IGO is never entitled to jurisdictional immunity after choosing to initiate proceedings. The incorrect Swaine reasoning introduces irrelevant complexity which confuses rather than clarifies and should therefore have no place in the working group’s final report.
[for those without colours here is an earlier link to a formatted .pdf version of the above reasoning http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/attachments/20180514/4478858... ]
On Tue, Jun 12, 2018 at 7:01 AM, George Kirikos <icann@leap.com> wrote:
Hi folks,
After consulting with Jim Bikoff off-list, I've updated my spreadsheet to remove the question marks (got those ones right, so they didn't change from before), and fixed a typo [from "Does" to "Doesn't"] which didn't actually change any of the analysis (that cell was Yellow, so I assessed it correctly, just didn't notice the typo until now).
The web link updates automatically:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQgB2sY5AgaBZUHsHJJPLIsAwTFj...
(every 5 minutes) but some might prefer the PDF.
Bedtime for me.
Sincerely,
George Kirikos 416-588-0269 http://www.leap.com/
On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 11:24 PM, George Kirikos <icann@leap.com> wrote:
Apologies, I forgot to attach the PDF version of the Google sheets document. It's attached now.
Sincerely,
George Kirikos 416-588-0269 http://www.leap.com/
On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 11:05 PM, George Kirikos <icann@leap.com> wrote:
Hi folks,
I've done my own analysis, given the problems already identified with the ones done by Staff/Petter/Susan [hereafter just "Staff version"] (which is at: https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2018-June/001264.html ).
Reg Levy's own analysis is at: https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2018-June/001266.html [although the version on the web is poorly formatted; I suggest if PDP members want to view it more easily, they refer back to the one in their mailbox; conceivably it can be turned into a PDF and then resent to the list to be archives, so that others viewing the web archive can read it more easily]
A Google Sheets version is at:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQgB2sY5AgaBZUHsHJJPLIsAwTFj... (updates every 5 minutes, if I make changes)
and a PDF is attached that is captured as of just before this email. I would suggest Staff add those both to the Wiki for tomorrow's call, so they can be referenced.
As you can see, I took more a nuanced view of the input, rather than a black/white (Support/Do Not Support) that Petter/Susan/Staff did. Reg's was also more nuanced, but only looked at the options in relation to Recommendation #5 (I looked at everything). I also took into account Mike Rodenbaugh's input (Reg didn't, that's why she has 14 rows, and I have 15). I also took into account Paul Keating's input from the May 10, 2018 phone call (where he opposed subsidies, i.e. opposed recommendation #4). And I also captured emails up to now (Jim Bikoff's apparent change of position is a bit confusing, so question marks there). I also made inferences for Options #1 through #6 of Recommendation 5 for Osvaldo and Crystal -- but left out any inferences for Recommendations 1 through 4 when there was no direct response for everyone]
Anyhow, here's what my analysis suggests:
A] Recommendation 1: (staff says "FULL CONSENSUS")
I think full consensus is achievable, but the wording needs to be slightly changed (i.e. see the comments of myself and Zak, echoed by Nat/Jay), i.e. add the word "substantive". If we look at the text which staff sent out today, they've already added the word "Substantive", so I think we're all in sync on that (compare to Petter's version sent out on Saturday night which had the original text, which didn't include the word 'substantive').
B] Recommendation 2: (staffs says "CONSENSUS")
I think consensus is achievable, if we clarify the text. The text got partially changed already (staff version of today, compared with Petter's from Saturday), but as I noted earlier today:
https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2018-June/001267.html
they only did half the changes.
C] Recommendation 3: (staff says "FULL CONSENSUS")
I've got this marked as "CONSENSUS", because I have Jim Bikoff marked as no support, based on his email at: https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/2018-June/001256.html
D] Recommendation 4: (staff says "CONSENSUS")
This is one the trickier ones. I think Consensus might be achievable, if we clarify the text. But, it might end up being "STRONG SUPPORT WITH SIGNIFICANT OPPOSITION". Right now, it's hard to tell. As I noted above, I've captured Paul Keating's input on this issue, which he's expressed on phone calls.
E] Recommendation 5: Option #1 (staff says "CONSENSUS")
I agree, it appears to be consensus (even with the implied opposition of Osvaldo that I record, but differ on staff with; we agree on all supporters, although I mark Mike Rodenbaugh as a "yellow" instead of a "green" (would be ok with, rather than "support").
F] Recommendation 5: Option #2 (staff says "NO CONSENSUS / DIVERGENCE")
I agree.
G] Recommendation 5: Option #3 (staff says "MINORITY VIEW (WITH CONSENUS AGAINST THIS OPTION)
I agree.
H] Recommendation 5: Option #4: (staff says "CONSENSUS")
I think this one's unclear. I think it's either consensus (but a smaller one than Option #1), OR it is Strong Support But Significant Opposition. Unlike Staff, I base this on implied "No" from Crystal and Osvaldo, and non-binary "conditional support" from Jim and Reg, as well as the rank preferences from others in Option #1]
I] Recommendation 5: Option #5: (staff says "NO CONSENSUS/DIVERGENCE")
I agree.
J] Recommendation 5: Option #6 (staff says ""STRONG SUPPORT BUT SIGNIFICANT OPPOSITION")
I've got it marked as No Consensus / Divergence, because I treat Crystal/Osvaldo differently than staff (I infer an implied "No"). Also I treat Reg differently too (non-binary).
If anyone feels I've interpreted their input incorrectly, please let me know.
As for moving forward (I still maintain we need more time), here are some constructive suggestions:
1. "finalize" (subject to a big review before the final report, in case someone missed something big) some of the text that has changed in Recommendation #1 & #2 (which has been changed, implicitly there's agreement, but we should get everyone explicitly on board)
2. Separate out Recommendation 4 (subsidies, etc.) for further discussion. Either agree to change in the recommendation itself (text), or have a more formal survey just separately on that issue (since there were some non-responses)
3. For Recommendation 5, I'd suggest marking Options #2, #3 and #5 as "dead", and concluded determined designations as what they were listed at -- staff and I agree; although others might raise objections]
4. For Recommendation 5, Option #6, I would make a "friendly" amendment for Paul T. Since Option #6 is really just the same (essentially as mediation + Option #1), I would suggest that we isolate things to break the linkage to Option #1 i.e. I would suggest that we create an entirely separate "Recommendation 6" which *only* had the mediation aspect. Then, folks can support/oppose the mediation aspect by itself, without the implicit linkage to Option #1. . Currently, staff doesn't have it reaching "Consensus" a notch below that, and I have it even weaker.
5. For Recommendation 5, Options #1 and #4 -- here the idea of "rank" really should come into play. Having both accepted might be considered "weird". i.e. Option #1 gives a solution to the problem now, but then Option #4 says "we're not going to solve the problem now, we're going to send it to the RPM PDP").
Those are my thoughts for now.
Sincerely,
George Kirikos 416-588-0269 http://www.leap.com/
_______________________________________________ Gnso-igo-ingo-crp mailing list Gnso-igo-ingo-crp@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-igo-ingo-crp
participants (2)
-
George Kirikos -
Paul Tattersfield