Re: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task
I support Avri's points generally, and would add the following in this specific instance: - the initial vote was properly proposed, seconded and voted on. - just as ignorance of the law is no excuse, the fact that Councilors were not aware of the implications of an abstention (when, frankly, they should be as it's in the rules plain as day) should not permit a re-introduction of something that was properly introduced and voted on. - In this case I don't know if the specific constituency impacted had given instructions to its Councilors as to how to vote. Even if they did not, the fact remains that these are very clearly set out in the GNSO rules, and if a constituency or Councilors did not know or did not make the time to discuss/decide, that is a very poor excuse for reintroducing a motion (again, one properly introduced, seconded and voted on). - In an ideal world, the Council should have suspended the matter and referred the issue of a re-introduction/reconsideration of such a motion (without necessarily specifying the actual motion or context) to the SCI before re-opening the vote. As it is, it seems as though the SCI's hands are somewhat tied since the second motion did get voted on and went through - the mind boggles at an SCI determination that this re-introduction and vote was improper or invalid, especially in the currrent somewhat sensitive context within which ICANN is operating. Cheers Mary Mary W S Wong Professor of Law Director, Franklin Pierce Center for IP Chair, Graduate IP Programs UNIVERSITY OF NEW HAMPSHIRE SCHOOL OF LAW Two White Street Concord, NH 03301 USA Email: mary.wong@law.unh.edu Phone: 1-603-513-5143 Webpage: http://www.law.unh.edu/marywong/index.php Selected writings available on the Social Science Research Network (SSRN) at: http://ssrn.com/author=437584
Avri Doria 01/09/13 2:01 PM >>>
Another thought experiment. There was a recent g-council vote where, in a rare event, the NCSG Policy Council had decided on an unanimous vote on an issue. But during the vote, some voters got confused and voted against. Would it have been appropriate for us to demand a re-vote? Had one of us been g-council Chair, would it have ben right for us to just reschedule the vote without even getting the g-councl to discuss and perhaps even vote on the notion of reconsidering the vote? A general question, anytime from now on, when a SG or Constituency beleive that its voters went against the will of the SG/C should they be able to have a vote rescheduled at the next meeting? avri On 9 Jan 2013, at 00:54, Avri Doria wrote:
Even Robert's Rules of Order has rules on when and how a motion can be reconsidered or rescinded (10.5). The Board of ICANN has rules on reconsideration in the ByLaws.
One specific requirement for reconsideration under Roberts is that one of those on the prevailing side ask for the reconsideration. In this case it was the Chair who had been on the losing side.
We need rules on when it is done and on how it should be done.
avri
On 9 Jan 2013, at 00:30, J. Scott Evans wrote:
I tend to agree,
From: Aikman-Scalese, Anne ; To: 'Avri Doria' ; Jeff Neuman ; gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org ; Cc: Jonathan Robinson ; Subject: RE: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task Sent: Wed, Jan 9, 2013 5:27:47 AM
Hi all, What I am struggling with procedurally is a basic "Robert's Rules" type inquiry. Namely: - I don't know of anything procedurally that would permit a motion that is moved and seconded from being voted on, no matter how obnoxious anyone finds the motion to be. I guess this is what we are going to discuss tomorrow.
the issue was voting again after it had already been defeated.
I would like to ask whether there are specific provisions in the GNSO Operating Procedures regarding introduction of motions that staff can provide prior to our call.
It is all in the g-counci Procedures. And is says nothing on reconsideration or rescinding of decisions already made.
Thank you Anne
Anne E. Aikman-Scalese Of Counsel Lewis and Roca LLP * Suite 700 One South Church Avenue * Tucson, Arizona 85701-1611 Tel (520) 629-4428 * Fax (520) 879-4725 AAikman@LRLaw.com * www.LewisandRoca.com/Aikman P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. This e-mail contains legally privileged and confidential information intended only for the individual or entity named within the message. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is prohibited. If this communication was received in error, please notify us by reply e-mail and delete the original message.
-----Original Message----- From: owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org [mailto:owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org] On Behalf Of Avri Doria Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 10:16 PM To: Jeff Neuman; gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org Cc: Jonathan Robinson Subject: Re: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task
Hi,
I guess I do not support that.
I think a motion should only be voted on once. and that to bring it back, something must have changed or a reasonable amount of time should have past.
And no we use votes to count the up to the thresholds defined for motions to pass. We may euphemistically use the word consensus, but it has NOTHING to do with consensus. If anything the consensus is in the work of the WGs and not in the votes of the management team, i.e. g-council.
I believe that what happened in that meeting is something that should never be allowed to happen again. And if we need rules to keep the chair from doing things like that, something I admit never entered my imagination of things that could go wrong, then we need new rules.
A thought experiment: Just imagine the uproar in the council if an NCUC based g-council chair had dared to some like this when the vote did not go her way.
avri
On 8 Jan 2013, at 21:24, Neuman, Jeff wrote:
Avri,
Yes, I know we use voting to measure consensus. But in the end, the spirit is to achieve consensus on policy items. The fact that it took two votes to do so should not prejudice the results. Again, if there was some evidence of wrong doing, fraud etc., that would be one thing. But that did not happen.
I support the ability to re-vote on any item unless there is evidence of misconduct, harassment, fraud, etc.
Best regards,
Jeffrey J. Neuman
Sent from iPad. Please excuse any typos.
-----Original Message----- From: Avri Doria [mailto:avri@ella.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 08:29 PM Eastern Standard Time To: Neuman, Jeff Cc: gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org; Jonathan Robinson Subject: Re: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task
Hi,
Sorry, that may be what the reviews intended at one point, but that is not what the current regulations say. Due to the agreement between the SG at the time, a very strict voting regime was adopted and approved by the Board for the g-council. G-council has such a complicated voting structure that the Secretariat has a special tool to help them figure out when a motion has passed or not.
To now claim that g-council is a consensus body does not match the reality of the situation.
avri
On 8 Jan 2013, at 19:37, Neuman, Jeff wrote:
I will restate what I said on the Council call. We are not supposed to as a group focus on voting. We are supposed to come to "consensus" on items. If there is a "consensus" at any time of the Council on any given policy (provided that the processes were followed by the working group making the recommendation), then that is what should govern. The last evolution and reform of icann report by the London School of Economics as supported by the Board Governance Committee emphasized this over and over again. We are not supposed to be a voting body, so lets focus back on consensus.
All of the comments I have seen from those that did not like the result in the last council meeting have not addressed the fact that ultimately there was a "consensus" on the issue. The fact that there had to be a second measurement of consensus on the item to me seems irrelevant and unnecessarily procedural. There was no abuse of process. There was no abuse within the working group making the recommendation. There is not evidence that there were improper conflicts, etc. Absent any showing of abuse, harassment, fraud, illegality, or willful negligence, I believe having a second measurement of consensus is not an issue.
Best regards,
Jeffrey J. Neuman
Sent from iPad. Please excuse any typos.
-----Original Message----- From: Avri Doria [mailto:avri@ella.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 05:31 PM Eastern Standard Time To: gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org Cc: Jonathan Robinson; Neuman, Jeff Subject: Re: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task
On 8 Jan 2013, at 17:16, Ron Andruff wrote:
Assuming that the ultimate desired outcome was for Councillors to vote as they were permitted to (and possibly directed to by their group), two remedies were possible.
I take real issue with this in that this can only be the case when it is accordance with adherence to all rules of neutrality, transparency and accountability.
Once a vote is given, it is taken and clues from anyone on how to make the vote work out better are not, in my view or the view of my stakeholder group, legitimate. It is not for voter to decide that they should be able vote they way they meant to when they voted another way. If it was, those poor old jewish voters on finding out the ballot in Florida was confusing could have taken back their votes for Buchanan, and Gore would have been President of the US. and yes, we may wish with all our hearts that it had been otherwise, but it wasn't. Voting does not work according to wishes unsaid, it works in terms of the vote given.
avri
---------------------- For more information about Lewis and Roca LLP, please go to www.lewisandroca.com.
Phoenix (602)262-5311 Reno (775)823-2900 Tucson (520)622-2090 Albuquerque (505)764-5400 Las Vegas (702)949-8200 Silicon Valley (650)391-1380
This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the sender of this E-Mail by return E-Mail or by telephone. In accordance with Internal Revenue Service Circular 230, we advise you that if this email contains any tax advice, such tax advice was not intended or written to be used, and it cannot be used, by any taxpayer for the purpose of avoiding penalties that may be imposed on the taxpayer
Just to clarify, the issue before the SCI is NOT whether the vote was proper or improper at the last Council meeting, but rather on the general notion of whether we should be allowing this in the future or restricting it. Clearly there is nothing now in the bylaws, operating procedures, etc. that says this practice is NOT allowed. So, regardless of what people's personal views on this are, the GNSO did not act improperly according to its rules. That said, should this be allowed in the future, should there be restrictions, etc. That is the issue we need to consider as a group. Jeffrey J. Neuman Neustar, Inc. / Vice President, Business Affairs From: Mary.Wong@law.unh.edu [mailto:Mary.Wong@law.unh.edu] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2013 11:58 AM To: avri@acm.org; gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org Cc: jonathan.robinson@ipracon.com; Neuman, Jeff Subject: Re: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task I support Avri's points generally, and would add the following in this specific instance: - the initial vote was properly proposed, seconded and voted on. - just as ignorance of the law is no excuse, the fact that Councilors were not aware of the implications of an abstention (when, frankly, they should be as it's in the rules plain as day) should not permit a re-introduction of something that was properly introduced and voted on. - In this case I don't know if the specific constituency impacted had given instructions to its Councilors as to how to vote. Even if they did not, the fact remains that these are very clearly set out in the GNSO rules, and if a constituency or Councilors did not know or did not make the time to discuss/decide, that is a very poor excuse for reintroducing a motion (again, one properly introduced, seconded and voted on). - In an ideal world, the Council should have suspended the matter and referred the issue of a re-introduction/reconsideration of such a motion (without necessarily specifying the actual motion or context) to the SCI before re-opening the vote. As it is, it seems as though the SCI's hands are somewhat tied since the second motion did get voted on and went through - the mind boggles at an SCI determination that this re-introduction and vote was improper or invalid, especially in the currrent somewhat sensitive context within which ICANN is operating. Cheers Mary Mary W S Wong Professor of Law Director, Franklin Pierce Center for IP Chair, Graduate IP Programs UNIVERSITY OF NEW HAMPSHIRE SCHOOL OF LAW Two White Street Concord, NH 03301 USA Email: mary.wong@law.unh.edu<mailto:mary.wong@law.unh.edu> Phone: 1-603-513-5143 Webpage: http://www.law.unh.edu/marywong/index.php Selected writings available on the Social Science Research Network (SSRN) at: http://ssrn.com/author=437584
Avri Doria <avri@acm.org<mailto:avri@acm.org>> 01/09/13 2:01 PM >>>
Another thought experiment. There was a recent g-council vote where, in a rare event, the NCSG Policy Council had decided on an unanimous vote on an issue. But during the vote, some voters got confused and voted against. Would it have been appropriate for us to demand a re-vote? Had one of us been g-council Chair, would it have ben right for us to just reschedule the vote without even getting the g-councl to discuss and perhaps even vote on the notion of reconsidering the vote? A general question, anytime from now on, when a SG or Constituency beleive that its voters went against the will of the SG/C should they be able to have a vote rescheduled at the next meeting? avri On 9 Jan 2013, at 00:54, Avri Doria wrote:
Even Robert's Rules of Order has rules on when and how a motion can be reconsidered or rescinded (10.5). The Board of ICANN has rules on reconsideration in the ByLaws.
One specific requirement for reconsideration under Roberts is that one of those on the prevailing side ask for the reconsideration. In this case it was the Chair who had been on the losing side.
We need rules on when it is done and on how it should be done.
avri
On 9 Jan 2013, at 00:30, J. Scott Evans wrote:
I tend to agree,
From: Aikman-Scalese, Anne <AAikman@lrlaw.com<mailto:AAikman@lrlaw.com>>; To: 'Avri Doria' <avri@acm.org<mailto:avri@acm.org>>; Jeff Neuman <Jeff.Neuman@neustar.us<mailto:Jeff.Neuman@neustar.us>>; gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org<mailto:gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org> <gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org<mailto:gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org>>; Cc: Jonathan Robinson <jonathan.robinson@ipracon.com<mailto:jonathan.robinson@ipracon.com>>; Subject: RE: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task Sent: Wed, Jan 9, 2013 5:27:47 AM
Hi all, What I am struggling with procedurally is a basic "Robert's Rules" type inquiry. Namely: - I don't know of anything procedurally that would permit a motion that is moved and seconded from being voted on, no matter how obnoxious anyone finds the motion to be. I guess this is what we are going to discuss tomorrow.
the issue was voting again after it had already been defeated.
I would like to ask whether there are specific provisions in the GNSO Operating Procedures regarding introduction of motions that staff can provide prior to our call.
It is all in the g-counci Procedures. And is says nothing on reconsideration or rescinding of decisions already made.
Thank you Anne
Anne E. Aikman-Scalese Of Counsel Lewis and Roca LLP * Suite 700 One South Church Avenue * Tucson, Arizona 85701-1611 Tel (520) 629-4428 * Fax (520) 879-4725 AAikman@LRLaw.com<mailto:AAikman@LRLaw.com> * www.LewisandRoca.com/Aikman<http://www.LewisandRoca.com/Aikman> P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. This e-mail contains legally privileged and confidential information intended only for the individual or entity named within the message. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is prohibited. If this communication was received in error, please notify us by reply e-mail and delete the original message.
-----Original Message----- From: owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org<mailto:owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org> [mailto:owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org] On Behalf Of Avri Doria Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 10:16 PM To: Jeff Neuman; gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org<mailto:gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org> Cc: Jonathan Robinson Subject: Re: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task
Hi,
I guess I do not support that.
I think a motion should only be voted on once. and that to bring it back, something must have changed or a reasonable amount of time should have past.
And no we use votes to count the up to the thresholds defined for motions to pass. We may euphemistically use the word consensus, but it has NOTHING to do with consensus. If anything the consensus is in the work of the WGs and not in the votes of the management team, i.e. g-council.
I believe that what happened in that meeting is something that should never be allowed to happen again. And if we need rules to keep the chair from doing things like that, something I admit never entered my imagination of things that could go wrong, then we need new rules.
A thought experiment: Just imagine the uproar in the council if an NCUC based g-council chair had dared to some like this when the vote did not go her way.
avri
On 8 Jan 2013, at 21:24, Neuman, Jeff wrote:
Avri,
Yes, I know we use voting to measure consensus. But in the end, the spirit is to achieve consensus on policy items. The fact that it took two votes to do so should not prejudice the results. Again, if there was some evidence of wrong doing, fraud etc., that would be one thing. But that did not happen.
I support the ability to re-vote on any item unless there is evidence of misconduct, harassment, fraud, etc.
Best regards,
Jeffrey J. Neuman
Sent from iPad. Please excuse any typos.
-----Original Message----- From: Avri Doria [mailto:avri@ella.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 08:29 PM Eastern Standard Time To: Neuman, Jeff Cc: gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org<mailto:gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org>; Jonathan Robinson Subject: Re: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task
Hi,
Sorry, that may be what the reviews intended at one point, but that is not what the current regulations say. Due to the agreement between the SG at the time, a very strict voting regime was adopted and approved by the Board for the g-council. G-council has such a complicated voting structure that the Secretariat has a special tool to help them figure out when a motion has passed or not.
To now claim that g-council is a consensus body does not match the reality of the situation.
avri
On 8 Jan 2013, at 19:37, Neuman, Jeff wrote:
I will restate what I said on the Council call. We are not supposed to as a group focus on voting. We are supposed to come to "consensus" on items. If there is a "consensus" at any time of the Council on any given policy (provided that the processes were followed by the working group making the recommendation), then that is what should govern. The last evolution and reform of icann report by the London School of Economics as supported by the Board Governance Committee emphasized this over and over again. We are not supposed to be a voting body, so lets focus back on consensus.
All of the comments I have seen from those that did not like the result in the last council meeting have not addressed the fact that ultimately there was a "consensus" on the issue. The fact that there had to be a second measurement of consensus on the item to me seems irrelevant and unnecessarily procedural. There was no abuse of process. There was no abuse within the working group making the recommendation. There is not evidence that there were improper conflicts, etc. Absent any showing of abuse, harassment, fraud, illegality, or willful negligence, I believe having a second measurement of consensus is not an issue.
Best regards,
Jeffrey J. Neuman
Sent from iPad. Please excuse any typos.
-----Original Message----- From: Avri Doria [mailto:avri@ella.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 05:31 PM Eastern Standard Time To: gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org<mailto:gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org> Cc: Jonathan Robinson; Neuman, Jeff Subject: Re: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task
On 8 Jan 2013, at 17:16, Ron Andruff wrote:
Assuming that the ultimate desired outcome was for Councillors to vote as they were permitted to (and possibly directed to by their group), two remedies were possible.
I take real issue with this in that this can only be the case when it is accordance with adherence to all rules of neutrality, transparency and accountability.
Once a vote is given, it is taken and clues from anyone on how to make the vote work out better are not, in my view or the view of my stakeholder group, legitimate. It is not for voter to decide that they should be able vote they way they meant to when they voted another way. If it was, those poor old jewish voters on finding out the ballot in Florida was confusing could have taken back their votes for Buchanan, and Gore would have been President of the US. and yes, we may wish with all our hearts that it had been otherwise, but it wasn't. Voting does not work according to wishes unsaid, it works in terms of the vote given.
avri
---------------------- For more information about Lewis and Roca LLP, please go to www.lewisandroca.com<http://www.lewisandroca.com>.
Phoenix (602)262-5311 Reno (775)823-2900 Tucson (520)622-2090 Albuquerque (505)764-5400 Las Vegas (702)949-8200 Silicon Valley (650)391-1380
This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the sender of this E-Mail by return E-Mail or by telephone. In accordance with Internal Revenue Service Circular 230, we advise you that if this email contains any tax advice, such tax advice was not intended or written to be used, and it cannot be used, by any taxpayer for the purpose of avoiding penalties that may be imposed on the taxpayer
Hi, I agree that we are not reviewing the vote itself. Though it would be interesting to see what happened if someone did introduce a motion to rescind that vote (re-reading Robert's is fascinating!), that is not an SCI decision to make. What is pertinent is that event, and projections on that event, as a case study for the issue before us.. avri On 9 Jan 2013, at 12:04, Neuman, Jeff wrote:
Just to clarify, the issue before the SCI is NOT whether the vote was proper or improper at the last Council meeting, but rather on the general notion of whether we should be allowing this in the future or restricting it. Clearly there is nothing now in the bylaws, operating procedures, etc. that says this practice is NOT allowed. So, regardless of what people’s personal views on this are, the GNSO did not act improperly according to its rules. That said, should this be allowed in the future, should there be restrictions, etc. That is the issue we need to consider as a group.
Jeffrey J. Neuman Neustar, Inc. / Vice President, Business Affairs
From: Mary.Wong@law.unh.edu [mailto:Mary.Wong@law.unh.edu] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2013 11:58 AM To: avri@acm.org; gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org Cc: jonathan.robinson@ipracon.com; Neuman, Jeff Subject: Re: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task
I support Avri's points generally, and would add the following in this specific instance:
- the initial vote was properly proposed, seconded and voted on.
- just as ignorance of the law is no excuse, the fact that Councilors were not aware of the implications of an abstention (when, frankly, they should be as it's in the rules plain as day) should not permit a re-introduction of something that was properly introduced and voted on.
- In this case I don't know if the specific constituency impacted had given instructions to its Councilors as to how to vote. Even if they did not, the fact remains that these are very clearly set out in the GNSO rules, and if a constituency or Councilors did not know or did not make the time to discuss/decide, that is a very poor excuse for reintroducing a motion (again, one properly introduced, seconded and voted on).
- In an ideal world, the Council should have suspended the matter and referred the issue of a re-introduction/reconsideration of such a motion (without necessarily specifying the actual motion or context) to the SCI before re-opening the vote. As it is, it seems as though the SCI's hands are somewhat tied since the second motion did get voted on and went through - the mind boggles at an SCI determination that this re-introduction and vote was improper or invalid, especially in the currrent somewhat sensitive context within which ICANN is operating.
Cheers Mary
Mary W S Wong Professor of Law Director, Franklin Pierce Center for IP Chair, Graduate IP Programs UNIVERSITY OF NEW HAMPSHIRE SCHOOL OF LAW Two White Street Concord, NH 03301 USA Email: mary.wong@law.unh.edu Phone: 1-603-513-5143 Webpage: http://www.law.unh.edu/marywong/index.php Selected writings available on the Social Science Research Network (SSRN) at: http://ssrn.com/author=437584
Avri Doria <avri@acm.org> 01/09/13 2:01 PM >>>
Another thought experiment.
There was a recent g-council vote where, in a rare event, the NCSG Policy Council had decided on an unanimous vote on an issue. But during the vote, some voters got confused and voted against.
Would it have been appropriate for us to demand a re-vote?
Had one of us been g-council Chair, would it have ben right for us to just reschedule the vote without even getting the g-councl to discuss and perhaps even vote on the notion of reconsidering the vote?
A general question, anytime from now on, when a SG or Constituency beleive that its voters went against the will of the SG/C should they be able to have a vote rescheduled at the next meeting?
avri
On 9 Jan 2013, at 00:54, Avri Doria wrote:
Even Robert's Rules of Order has rules on when and how a motion can be reconsidered or rescinded (10.5). The Board of ICANN has rules on reconsideration in the ByLaws.
One specific requirement for reconsideration under Roberts is that one of those on the prevailing side ask for the reconsideration. In this case it was the Chair who had been on the losing side.
We need rules on when it is done and on how it should be done.
avri
On 9 Jan 2013, at 00:30, J. Scott Evans wrote:
I tend to agree,
From: Aikman-Scalese, Anne <AAikman@lrlaw.com>; To: 'Avri Doria' <avri@acm.org>; Jeff Neuman <Jeff.Neuman@neustar.us>; gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org<gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org>; Cc: Jonathan Robinson <jonathan.robinson@ipracon.com>; Subject: RE: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task Sent: Wed, Jan 9, 2013 5:27:47 AM
Hi all, What I am struggling with procedurally is a basic "Robert's Rules" type inquiry. Namely: - I don't know of anything procedurally that would permit a motion that is moved and seconded from being voted on, no matter how obnoxious anyone finds the motion to be. I guess this is what we are going to discuss tomorrow.
the issue was voting again after it had already been defeated.
I would like to ask whether there are specific provisions in the GNSO Operating Procedures regarding introduction of motions that staff can provide prior to our call.
It is all in the g-counci Procedures. And is says nothing on reconsideration or rescinding of decisions already made.
Thank you Anne
Anne E. Aikman-Scalese Of Counsel Lewis and Roca LLP * Suite 700 One South Church Avenue * Tucson, Arizona 85701-1611 Tel (520) 629-4428 * Fax (520) 879-4725 AAikman@LRLaw.com * www.LewisandRoca.com/Aikman P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. This e-mail contains legally privileged and confidential information intended only for the individual or entity named within the message. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is prohibited. If this communication was received in error, please notify us by reply e-mail and delete the original message.
-----Original Message----- From: owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org [mailto:owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org] On Behalf Of Avri Doria Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 10:16 PM To: Jeff Neuman; gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org Cc: Jonathan Robinson Subject: Re: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task
Hi,
I guess I do not support that.
I think a motion should only be voted on once. and that to bring it back, something must have changed or a reasonable amount of time should have past.
And no we use votes to count the up to the thresholds defined for motions to pass. We may euphemistically use the word consensus, but it has NOTHING to do with consensus. If anything the consensus is in the work of the WGs and not in the votes of the management team, i.e. g-council.
I believe that what happened in that meeting is something that should never be allowed to happen again. And if we need rules to keep the chair from doing things like that, something I admit never entered my imagination of things that could go wrong, then we need new rules.
A thought experiment: Just imagine the uproar in the council if an NCUC based g-council chair had dared to some like this when the vote did not go her way.
avri
On 8 Jan 2013, at 21:24, Neuman, Jeff wrote:
Avri,
Yes, I know we use voting to measure consensus. But in the end, the spirit is to achieve consensus on policy items. The fact that it took two votes to do so should not prejudice the results. Again, if there was some evidence of wrong doing, fraud etc., that would be one thing. But that did not happen.
I support the ability to re-vote on any item unless there is evidence of misconduct, harassment, fraud, etc.
Best regards,
Jeffrey J. Neuman
Sent from iPad. Please excuse any typos.
-----Original Message----- From: Avri Doria [mailto:avri@ella.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 08:29 PM Eastern Standard Time To: Neuman, Jeff Cc: gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org; Jonathan Robinson Subject: Re: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task
Hi,
Sorry, that may be what the reviews intended at one point, but that is not what the current regulations say. Due to the agreement between the SG at the time, a very strict voting regime was adopted and approved by the Board for the g-council. G-council has such a complicated voting structure that the Secretariat has a special tool to help them figure out when a motion has passed or not.
To now claim that g-council is a consensus body does not match the reality of the situation.
avri
On 8 Jan 2013, at 19:37, Neuman, Jeff wrote:
I will restate what I said on the Council call. We are not supposed to as a group focus on voting. We are supposed to come to "consensus" on items. If there is a "consensus" at any time of the Council on any given policy (provided that the processes were followed by the working group making the recommendation), then that is what should govern. The last evolution and reform of icann report by the London School of Economics as supported by the Board Governance Committee emphasized this over and over again. We are not supposed to be a voting body, so lets focus back on consensus.
All of the comments I have seen from those that did not like the result in the last council meeting have not addressed the fact that ultimately there was a "consensus" on the issue. The fact that there had to be a second measurement of consensus on the item to me seems irrelevant and unnecessarily procedural. There was no abuse of process. There was no abuse within the working group making the recommendation. There is not evidence that there were improper conflicts, etc. Absent any showing of abuse, harassment, fraud, illegality, or willful negligence, I believe having a second measurement of consensus is not an issue.
Best regards,
Jeffrey J. Neuman
Sent from iPad. Please excuse any typos.
-----Original Message----- From: Avri Doria [mailto:avri@ella.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 05:31 PM Eastern Standard Time To: gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org Cc: Jonathan Robinson; Neuman, Jeff Subject: Re: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task
On 8 Jan 2013, at 17:16, Ron Andruff wrote:
Assuming that the ultimate desired outcome was for Councillors to vote as they were permitted to (and possibly directed to by their group), two remedies were possible.
I take real issue with this in that this can only be the case when it is accordance with adherence to all rules of neutrality, transparency and accountability.
Once a vote is given, it is taken and clues from anyone on how to make the vote work out better are not, in my view or the view of my stakeholder group, legitimate. It is not for voter to decide that they should be able vote they way they meant to when they voted another way. If it was, those poor old jewish voters on finding out the ballot in Florida was confusing could have taken back their votes for Buchanan, and Gore would have been President of the US. and yes, we may wish with all our hearts that it had been otherwise, but it wasn't. Voting does not work according to wishes unsaid, it works in terms of the vote given.
avri
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All, My understanding of the role of the SCI is to determine how improvements may be made for the future. When the motion was re-submitted to the December meeting, I do not believe that there was any procedure to guide the Council on the re-introduction of a motion that had recently been voted on. This specific issue has highlighted that we may need something to guide us on this in future. I do not believe that the SCI's hands are tied at all. We have one useful example which raised concerns and now need to look at as general solution as possible for the future in order to cover both the example that raised the concern and other cases which may occur in future. Thanks, Jonathan From: owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org [mailto:owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org] On Behalf Of Mary.Wong@law.unh.edu Sent: 09 January 2013 16:58 To: avri@acm.org; gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org Cc: jonathan.robinson@ipracon.com; Jeff.Neuman@neustar.us Subject: Re: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task I support Avri's points generally, and would add the following in this specific instance: - the initial vote was properly proposed, seconded and voted on. - just as ignorance of the law is no excuse, the fact that Councilors were not aware of the implications of an abstention (when, frankly, they should be as it's in the rules plain as day) should not permit a re-introduction of something that was properly introduced and voted on. - In this case I don't know if the specific constituency impacted had given instructions to its Councilors as to how to vote. Even if they did not, the fact remains that these are very clearly set out in the GNSO rules, and if a constituency or Councilors did not know or did not make the time to discuss/decide, that is a very poor excuse for reintroducing a motion (again, one properly introduced, seconded and voted on). - In an ideal world, the Council should have suspended the matter and referred the issue of a re-introduction/reconsideration of such a motion (without necessarily specifying the actual motion or context) to the SCI before re-opening the vote. As it is, it seems as though the SCI's hands are somewhat tied since the second motion did get voted on and went through - the mind boggles at an SCI determination that this re-introduction and vote was improper or invalid, especially in the currrent somewhat sensitive context within which ICANN is operating. Cheers Mary Mary W S Wong Professor of Law Director, Franklin Pierce Center for IP Chair, Graduate IP Programs UNIVERSITY OF NEW HAMPSHIRE SCHOOL OF LAW Two White Street Concord, NH 03301 USA Email: mary.wong@law.unh.edu Phone: 1-603-513-5143 Webpage: http://www.law.unh.edu/marywong/index.php Selected writings available on the Social Science Research Network (SSRN) at: http://ssrn.com/author=437584
Avri Doria <avri@acm.org> 01/09/13 2:01 PM >>>
Another thought experiment. There was a recent g-council vote where, in a rare event, the NCSG Policy Council had decided on an unanimous vote on an issue. But during the vote, some voters got confused and voted against. Would it have been appropriate for us to demand a re-vote? Had one of us been g-council Chair, would it have ben right for us to just reschedule the vote without even getting the g-councl to discuss and perhaps even vote on the notion of reconsidering the vote? A general question, anytime from now on, when a SG or Constituency beleive that its voters went against the will of the SG/C should they be able to have a vote rescheduled at the next meeting? avri On 9 Jan 2013, at 00:54, Avri Doria wrote:
Even Robert's Rules of Order has rules on when and how a motion can be
reconsidered or rescinded (10.5). The Board of ICANN has rules on reconsideration in the ByLaws.
One specific requirement for reconsideration under Roberts is that one of
those on the prevailing side ask for the reconsideration. In this case it was the Chair who had been on the losing side.
We need rules on when it is done and on how it should be done.
avri
On 9 Jan 2013, at 00:30, J. Scott Evans wrote:
I tend to agree,
From: Aikman-Scalese, Anne <AAikman@lrlaw.com>; To: 'Avri Doria' <avri@acm.org>; Jeff Neuman <Jeff.Neuman@neustar.us>;
gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org <gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org>;
Cc: Jonathan Robinson <jonathan.robinson@ipracon.com>; Subject: RE: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task Sent: Wed, Jan 9, 2013 5:27:47 AM
Hi all, What I am struggling with procedurally is a basic "Robert's Rules" type inquiry. Namely: - I don't know of anything procedurally that would permit a motion that is moved and seconded from being voted on, no matter how obnoxious anyone finds the motion to be. I guess this is what we are going to discuss tomorrow.
the issue was voting again after it had already been defeated.
I would like to ask whether there are specific provisions in the GNSO
Operating Procedures regarding introduction of motions that staff can provide prior to our call.
It is all in the g-counci Procedures. And is says nothing on reconsideration or rescinding of decisions already made.
Thank you Anne
Anne E. Aikman-Scalese Of Counsel Lewis and Roca LLP * Suite 700 One South Church Avenue * Tucson, Arizona 85701-1611 Tel (520) 629-4428 * Fax (520) 879-4725 AAikman@LRLaw.com * www.LewisandRoca.com/Aikman P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. This e-mail contains legally privileged and confidential information intended only for the individual or entity named within the message. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is prohibited. If this communication was received in error, please notify us by reply e-mail and delete the
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-----Original Message----- From: owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org
[mailto:owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org] On Behalf Of Avri Doria
Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 10:16 PM To: Jeff Neuman; gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org Cc: Jonathan Robinson Subject: Re: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task
Hi,
I guess I do not support that.
I think a motion should only be voted on once. and that to bring it back, something must have changed or a reasonable amount of time should have past.
And no we use votes to count the up to the thresholds defined for motions to pass. We may euphemistically use the word consensus, but it has NOTHING to do with consensus. If anything the consensus is in the work of the WGs and not in the votes of the management team, i.e. g-council.
I believe that what happened in that meeting is something that should never be allowed to happen again. And if we need rules to keep the chair from doing things like that, something I admit never entered my imagination of things that could go wrong, then we need new rules.
A thought experiment: Just imagine the uproar in the council if an NCUC based g-council chair had dared to some like this when the vote did not go her way.
avri
On 8 Jan 2013, at 21:24, Neuman, Jeff wrote:
Avri,
Yes, I know we use voting to measure consensus. But in the end, the
spirit is to achieve consensus on policy items. The fact that it took two votes to do so should not prejudice the results. Again, if there was some evidence of wrong doing, fraud etc., that would be one thing. But that did not happen.
I support the ability to re-vote on any item unless there is evidence of
misconduct, harassment, fraud, etc.
Best regards,
Jeffrey J. Neuman
Sent from iPad. Please excuse any typos.
-----Original Message----- From: Avri Doria [mailto:avri@ella.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 08:29 PM Eastern Standard Time To: Neuman, Jeff Cc: gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org; Jonathan Robinson Subject: Re: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task
Hi,
Sorry, that may be what the reviews intended at one point, but that is
not what the current regulations say. Due to the agreement between the SG at the time, a very strict voting regime was adopted and approved by the Board for the g-council. G-council has such a complicated voting structure that the Secretariat has a special tool to help them figure out when a motion has passed or not.
To now claim that g-council is a consensus body does not match the
reality of the situation.
avri
On 8 Jan 2013, at 19:37, Neuman, Jeff wrote:
I will restate what I said on the Council call. We are not supposed to
as a group focus on voting. We are supposed to come to "consensus" on items. If there is a "consensus" at any time of the Council on any given policy (provided that the processes were followed by the working group making the recommendation), then that is what should govern. The last evolution and reform of icann report by the London School of Economics as supported by the Board Governance Committee emphasized this over and over again. We are not supposed to be a voting body, so lets focus back on consensus.
All of the comments I have seen from those that did not like the result
in the last council meeting have not addressed the fact that ultimately there was a "consensus" on the issue. The fact that there had to be a second measurement of consensus on the item to me seems irrelevant and unnecessarily procedural. There was no abuse of process. There was no abuse within the working group making the recommendation. There is not evidence that there were improper conflicts, etc. Absent any showing of abuse, harassment, fraud, illegality, or willful negligence, I believe having a second measurement of consensus is not an issue.
Best regards,
Jeffrey J. Neuman
Sent from iPad. Please excuse any typos.
-----Original Message----- From: Avri Doria [mailto:avri@ella.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 05:31 PM Eastern Standard Time To: gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org Cc: Jonathan Robinson; Neuman, Jeff Subject: Re: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] New task
On 8 Jan 2013, at 17:16, Ron Andruff wrote:
Assuming that the ultimate desired outcome was for Councillors to vote
as they were permitted to (and possibly directed to by their group), two remedies were possible.
I take real issue with this in that this can only be the case when it is accordance with adherence to all rules of neutrality, transparency and accountability.
Once a vote is given, it is taken and clues from anyone on how to make the vote work out better are not, in my view or the view of my stakeholder group, legitimate. It is not for voter to decide that they should be able vote they way they meant to when they voted another way. If it was, those poor old jewish voters on finding out the ballot in Florida was confusing could have taken back their votes for Buchanan, and Gore would have been President of the US. and yes, we may wish with all our hearts that it had been otherwise, but it wasn't. Voting does not work according to wishes unsaid, it works in terms of the vote given.
avri
---------------------- For more information about Lewis and Roca LLP, please go to www.lewisandroca.com.
Phoenix (602)262-5311 Reno (775)823-2900 Tucson (520)622-2090 Albuquerque (505)764-5400 Las Vegas (702)949-8200 Silicon Valley (650)391-1380
This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the sender of this E-Mail by return E-Mail or by telephone. In accordance with Internal Revenue Service Circular 230, we advise you that if this email contains any tax advice, such tax advice was not intended or written to be used, and it cannot be used, by any taxpayer for the purpose of avoiding penalties that may be imposed on the taxpayer
participants (4)
-
Avri Doria -
Jonathan Robinson -
Mary.Wong＠law.unh.edu -
Neuman, Jeff