GNSO WG Definitions of Decision-Making Levels
Hi, I’ve taken a stab at some very slight word-smithing on the last draft of the WG consensus levels discussed at our F2F in Singapore. I’ve tried to capture the comments made, and a little more and look forward to a discussion on this during today’s call. I have admittedly done this only today, so have not had time to consult with the rest of the sub-team. Greg, Thomas, Cintra…, my apologies. Thanks. Amr
Apologies for having missed the F2F meeting in Singapore, but how do these changes address the specific question that was put forward by the GNSO Council on behalf of the IGO/INGO PDP WG: 'and specifically requests the SCI to review and, if deemed appropriate, recommend revised or additional language to apply to situations where working groups may reach sufficient consensus against a particular proposal such that the appropriate consensus level cannot accurately be described as No Consensus/Divergence'? The additions / edits may be helpful clarifications but they seem to go beyond the scope of the specific question put forward to the SCI. But maybe I am missing something, so I am looking forward to discussing this further on the call later today. Best regards, Marika On 08/04/14 13:12, "Amr Elsadr" <aelsadr@egyptig.org> wrote:
Hi,
I¹ve taken a stab at some very slight word-smithing on the last draft of the WG consensus levels discussed at our F2F in Singapore. I¹ve tried to capture the comments made, and a little more and look forward to a discussion on this during today¹s call.
I have admittedly done this only today, so have not had time to consult with the rest of the sub-team. Greg, Thomas, Cintra, my apologies.
Thanks.
Amr
Thanks for the feedback, Marika. I’d be grateful if you pointed out the specifics in the document on today’s call. I have to admit, I’ve been struggling with it. I’m no lawyer…, that’s for sure. :) In any case, the sub-team’s intent has always been to address revisions to take into consideration when consensus against WG recommendations is the situation, as divergence does not reflect this situation (as was the case with the IGO/INGO WG). That’s probably why the definition of divergence is the only one that hasn’t really been substantively changed. The focus has been on the rest so far. Still…, we do have the three ways to move forward that Ron had previously suggested: 1. Recommend changes in the definitions to the GNSO Council when the SCI finalises them. 2. To not recommend any changes at this time, and postpone changes to see if they indeed become necessary in the future (although there have been some recommendations not to do this). 3. The third option is to not change the definitions, but instead to add a footnote to them indicating that the decision-making levels could be used when consensus is for or against WG recommendations. Thanks again, Marika. Amr On Apr 8, 2014, at 1:24 PM, Marika Konings <marika.konings@icann.org> wrote:
Apologies for having missed the F2F meeting in Singapore, but how do these changes address the specific question that was put forward by the GNSO Council on behalf of the IGO/INGO PDP WG: 'and specifically requests the SCI to review and, if deemed appropriate, recommend revised or additional language to apply to situations where working groups may reach sufficient consensus against a particular proposal such that the appropriate consensus level cannot accurately be described as No Consensus/Divergence'? The additions / edits may be helpful clarifications but they seem to go beyond the scope of the specific question put forward to the SCI. But maybe I am missing something, so I am looking forward to discussing this further on the call later today.
Best regards,
Marika
On 08/04/14 13:12, "Amr Elsadr" <aelsadr@egyptig.org> wrote:
Hi,
I¹ve taken a stab at some very slight word-smithing on the last draft of the WG consensus levels discussed at our F2F in Singapore. I¹ve tried to capture the comments made, and a little more and look forward to a discussion on this during today¹s call.
I have admittedly done this only today, so have not had time to consult with the rest of the sub-team. Greg, Thomas, CintraŠ, my apologies.
Thanks.
Amr
<default.xml>
I've been giving this some thought (which unfortunately I kept to myself). There are really 2 problems here. 1. Dealing with the "consensus against" problem. This is our explicit assignment. 2. The Decision-Making Levels are not well-drafted in certain places. There is inconsistent use of language (different words used to mean the same thing), inconsistent use of "unstated phrases" (leaving out the same or similar phrase when reiterating a point) creating ambiguity, etc. We are trying to solve both problems at the same time. We started down this road because the fix needs to change all of the levels (except perhaps Divergence). Then, slowly (as we became more comfortable with the document), we started to see the list's infirmities and tried to resolve them. In my day job, I call this "drafting creep." The problem with drafting creep is that it opens up issues beyond the one you were fixing, and intertwines those two sets of issues in a way that complicates review by others. This is what Marika is seeing. I think we need to reverse course for the moment. I think both (1) and (2) above are problems that need to be addressed. But only (1) is really on our plate. I'll make the moderately radical suggestion that we keep our hands off the current levels (in spite of their issues) and address the "consensus against" issue (which does affect all the levels) in a footnote (Amr's alternative 3, below). At some later time, we can then follow up and improve the drafting of the levels, separate from dealing with the "consensus against" issue. Just my thoughts. I can try to draft a footnote today, but it's a bit of a messy day (3 ICANN/IG calls plus that "day job"), so I'm not sure if I can. Greg Shatan Gregory S. Shatan Partner Reed Smith LLP 599 Lexington Avenue New York, NY 10022 212.549.0275 (Phone) 917.816.6428 (Mobile) 212.521.5450 (Fax) gshatan@reedsmith.com www.reedsmith.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org [mailto:owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org] On Behalf Of Amr Elsadr Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 7:40 AM To: Marika Konings Cc: <gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org> Subject: Re: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] GNSO WG Definitions of Decision-Making Levels Thanks for the feedback, Marika. I’d be grateful if you pointed out the specifics in the document on today’s call. I have to admit, I’ve been struggling with it. I’m no lawyer…, that’s for sure. :) In any case, the sub-team’s intent has always been to address revisions to take into consideration when consensus against WG recommendations is the situation, as divergence does not reflect this situation (as was the case with the IGO/INGO WG). That’s probably why the definition of divergence is the only one that hasn’t really been substantively changed. The focus has been on the rest so far. Still…, we do have the three ways to move forward that Ron had previously suggested: 1. Recommend changes in the definitions to the GNSO Council when the SCI finalises them. 2. To not recommend any changes at this time, and postpone changes to see if they indeed become necessary in the future (although there have been some recommendations not to do this). 3. The third option is to not change the definitions, but instead to add a footnote to them indicating that the decision-making levels could be used when consensus is for or against WG recommendations. Thanks again, Marika. Amr On Apr 8, 2014, at 1:24 PM, Marika Konings <marika.konings@icann.org> wrote:
Apologies for having missed the F2F meeting in Singapore, but how do these changes address the specific question that was put forward by the GNSO Council on behalf of the IGO/INGO PDP WG: 'and specifically requests the SCI to review and, if deemed appropriate, recommend revised or additional language to apply to situations where working groups may reach sufficient consensus against a particular proposal such that the appropriate consensus level cannot accurately be described as No Consensus/Divergence'? The additions / edits may be helpful clarifications but they seem to go beyond the scope of the specific question put forward to the SCI. But maybe I am missing something, so I am looking forward to discussing this further on the call later today.
Best regards,
Marika
On 08/04/14 13:12, "Amr Elsadr" <aelsadr@egyptig.org> wrote:
Hi,
I¹ve taken a stab at some very slight word-smithing on the last draft of the WG consensus levels discussed at our F2F in Singapore. I¹ve tried to capture the comments made, and a little more and look forward to a discussion on this during today¹s call.
I have admittedly done this only today, so have not had time to consult with the rest of the sub-team. Greg, Thomas, CintraŠ, my apologies.
Thanks.
Amr
<default.xml>
* * * This E-mail, along with any attachments, is considered confidential and may well be legally privileged. If you have received it in error, you are on notice of its status. Please notify us immediately by reply e-mail and then delete this message from your system. Please do not copy it or use it for any purposes, or disclose its contents to any other person. Thank you for your cooperation. * * * To ensure compliance with Treasury Department regulations, we inform you that, unless otherwise indicated in writing, any U.S. Federal tax advice contained in this communication (including any attachments) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (1) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or applicable state and local provisions or (2) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any tax-related matters addressed herein. Disclaimer Version RS.US.20.10.00
Thanks Greg. I think this is a helpful observation. Regarding "day job", regrettably mine conflicts for today's SCI call . Regarding the e-mail voting issues, I had circulated in January a redline with questions about that process. It is attached again, although it may be impacted by some suggestions that were made regarding the 10 day waiver recommendation. In this regard, my comment is that e-mail voting is not appropriate for unanimous consent to waive the 10 day rule since it does not seem to me that it could meet the litmus test of "participation in full discussion" that applies to e-mail voting. With respect to both the consensus levels and the waiver of the ten day rule, whatever is determined in today's call will have to be taken back to IPC for formal input. I also think, as I said at the end of the Singapore meeting, that Thomas, Avri, and I need to schedule a separate call on the e-mail voting issue as a subgroup. Perhaps we could ask staff to assist in scheduling the call? Very sorry I cannot participate today but I must attend a meeting of all lawyers in my firm's Tucson office occurring at the same hour. Thank you, Anne Anne E. Aikman-Scalese Of Counsel Lewis Roca Rothgerber LLP | Suite 700 One South Church Avenue Tucson, Arizona 85701-1611 (T) 520.629.4428 | (F) 520.879.4725 AAikman@LRRLaw.com | www.LRRLaw.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org [mailto:owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org] On Behalf Of Shatan, Gregory S. Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 8:23 AM To: 'Amr Elsadr'; Marika Konings Cc: <gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org> Subject: RE: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] GNSO WG Definitions of Decision-Making Levels I've been giving this some thought (which unfortunately I kept to myself). There are really 2 problems here. 1. Dealing with the "consensus against" problem. This is our explicit assignment. 2. The Decision-Making Levels are not well-drafted in certain places. There is inconsistent use of language (different words used to mean the same thing), inconsistent use of "unstated phrases" (leaving out the same or similar phrase when reiterating a point) creating ambiguity, etc. We are trying to solve both problems at the same time. We started down this road because the fix needs to change all of the levels (except perhaps Divergence). Then, slowly (as we became more comfortable with the document), we started to see the list's infirmities and tried to resolve them. In my day job, I call this "drafting creep." The problem with drafting creep is that it opens up issues beyond the one you were fixing, and intertwines those two sets of issues in a way that complicates review by others. This is what Marika is seeing. I think we need to reverse course for the moment. I think both (1) and (2) above are problems that need to be addressed. But only (1) is really on our plate. I'll make the moderately radical suggestion that we keep our hands off the current levels (in spite of their issues) and address the "consensus against" issue (which does affect all the levels) in a footnote (Amr's alternative 3, below). At some later time, we can then follow up and improve the drafting of the levels, separate from dealing with the "consensus against" issue. Just my thoughts. I can try to draft a footnote today, but it's a bit of a messy day (3 ICANN/IG calls plus that "day job"), so I'm not sure if I can. Greg Shatan Gregory S. Shatan Partner Reed Smith LLP 599 Lexington Avenue New York, NY 10022 212.549.0275 (Phone) 917.816.6428 (Mobile) 212.521.5450 (Fax) gshatan@reedsmith.com www.reedsmith.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org [mailto:owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org] On Behalf Of Amr Elsadr Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 7:40 AM To: Marika Konings Cc: <gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org> Subject: Re: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] GNSO WG Definitions of Decision-Making Levels Thanks for the feedback, Marika. I’d be grateful if you pointed out the specifics in the document on today’s call. I have to admit, I’ve been struggling with it. I’m no lawyer…, that’s for sure. :) In any case, the sub-team’s intent has always been to address revisions to take into consideration when consensus against WG recommendations is the situation, as divergence does not reflect this situation (as was the case with the IGO/INGO WG). That’s probably why the definition of divergence is the only one that hasn’t really been substantively changed. The focus has been on the rest so far. Still…, we do have the three ways to move forward that Ron had previously suggested: 1. Recommend changes in the definitions to the GNSO Council when the SCI finalises them. 2. To not recommend any changes at this time, and postpone changes to see if they indeed become necessary in the future (although there have been some recommendations not to do this). 3. The third option is to not change the definitions, but instead to add a footnote to them indicating that the decision-making levels could be used when consensus is for or against WG recommendations. Thanks again, Marika. Amr On Apr 8, 2014, at 1:24 PM, Marika Konings <marika.konings@icann.org> wrote:
Apologies for having missed the F2F meeting in Singapore, but how do these changes address the specific question that was put forward by the GNSO Council on behalf of the IGO/INGO PDP WG: 'and specifically requests the SCI to review and, if deemed appropriate, recommend revised or additional language to apply to situations where working groups may reach sufficient consensus against a particular proposal such that the appropriate consensus level cannot accurately be described as No Consensus/Divergence'? The additions / edits may be helpful clarifications but they seem to go beyond the scope of the specific question put forward to the SCI. But maybe I am missing something, so I am looking forward to discussing this further on the call later today.
Best regards,
Marika
On 08/04/14 13:12, "Amr Elsadr" <aelsadr@egyptig.org> wrote:
Hi,
I¹ve taken a stab at some very slight word-smithing on the last draft of the WG consensus levels discussed at our F2F in Singapore. I¹ve tried to capture the comments made, and a little more and look forward to a discussion on this during today¹s call.
I have admittedly done this only today, so have not had time to consult with the rest of the sub-team. Greg, Thomas, CintraŠ, my apologies.
Thanks.
Amr
<default.xml>
* * * This E-mail, along with any attachments, is considered confidential and may well be legally privileged. If you have received it in error, you are on notice of its status. Please notify us immediately by reply e-mail and then delete this message from your system. Please do not copy it or use it for any purposes, or disclose its contents to any other person. Thank you for your cooperation. * * * To ensure compliance with Treasury Department regulations, we inform you that, unless otherwise indicated in writing, any U.S. Federal tax advice contained in this communication (including any attachments) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (1) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or applicable state and local provisions or (2) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any tax-related matters addressed herein. Disclaimer Version RS.US.20.10.00 ________________________________ This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. If the reader of this message or an attachment is not the intended recipient or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message or attachment to the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this message or any attachment is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the sender. The information transmitted in this message and any attachments may be privileged, is intended only for the personal and confidential use of the intended recipients, and is covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §2510-2521. In accordance with Internal Revenue Service Circular 230, we advise you that if this message or any attachments contains any tax advice, such tax advice was not intended or written to be used, and it cannot be used, by any taxpayer for the purpose of avoiding penalties that may be imposed on the taxpayer.
Dear all, This is to inform you that, I have recently moved to another country for work reasons and the time zone where I am now based is UTC +7. Since this working group has its sessions scheduled at 19UTC, it makes it difficult for me to attend the conference calls. Therefore, I have taken the decision to withdraw from this particular working group. Since Cintra is the main NPOC representative and I am the alternate, I trust this won´t disrupt too much the work of the group. I wish you all the best of luck and please keep up with the good work you have all been doing so far! Best, Marie-laure On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 10:23 PM, Shatan, Gregory S. <GShatan@reedsmith.com>wrote:
I've been giving this some thought (which unfortunately I kept to myself). There are really 2 problems here.
1. Dealing with the "consensus against" problem. This is our explicit assignment. 2. The Decision-Making Levels are not well-drafted in certain places. There is inconsistent use of language (different words used to mean the same thing), inconsistent use of "unstated phrases" (leaving out the same or similar phrase when reiterating a point) creating ambiguity, etc.
We are trying to solve both problems at the same time. We started down this road because the fix needs to change all of the levels (except perhaps Divergence). Then, slowly (as we became more comfortable with the document), we started to see the list's infirmities and tried to resolve them. In my day job, I call this "drafting creep." The problem with drafting creep is that it opens up issues beyond the one you were fixing, and intertwines those two sets of issues in a way that complicates review by others. This is what Marika is seeing.
I think we need to reverse course for the moment. I think both (1) and (2) above are problems that need to be addressed. But only (1) is really on our plate.
I'll make the moderately radical suggestion that we keep our hands off the current levels (in spite of their issues) and address the "consensus against" issue (which does affect all the levels) in a footnote (Amr's alternative 3, below).
At some later time, we can then follow up and improve the drafting of the levels, separate from dealing with the "consensus against" issue.
Just my thoughts. I can try to draft a footnote today, but it's a bit of a messy day (3 ICANN/IG calls plus that "day job"), so I'm not sure if I can.
Greg Shatan
Gregory S. Shatan Partner Reed Smith LLP 599 Lexington Avenue New York, NY 10022 212.549.0275 (Phone) 917.816.6428 (Mobile) 212.521.5450 (Fax) gshatan@reedsmith.com www.reedsmith.com
-----Original Message----- From: owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org [mailto: owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org] On Behalf Of Amr Elsadr Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 7:40 AM To: Marika Konings Cc: <gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org> Subject: Re: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] GNSO WG Definitions of Decision-Making Levels
Thanks for the feedback, Marika. I’d be grateful if you pointed out the specifics in the document on today’s call. I have to admit, I’ve been struggling with it. I’m no lawyer…, that’s for sure. :)
In any case, the sub-team’s intent has always been to address revisions to take into consideration when consensus against WG recommendations is the situation, as divergence does not reflect this situation (as was the case with the IGO/INGO WG). That’s probably why the definition of divergence is the only one that hasn’t really been substantively changed. The focus has been on the rest so far.
Still…, we do have the three ways to move forward that Ron had previously suggested:
1. Recommend changes in the definitions to the GNSO Council when the SCI finalises them. 2. To not recommend any changes at this time, and postpone changes to see if they indeed become necessary in the future (although there have been some recommendations not to do this). 3. The third option is to not change the definitions, but instead to add a footnote to them indicating that the decision-making levels could be used when consensus is for or against WG recommendations.
Thanks again, Marika.
Amr
On Apr 8, 2014, at 1:24 PM, Marika Konings <marika.konings@icann.org> wrote:
Apologies for having missed the F2F meeting in Singapore, but how do these changes address the specific question that was put forward by the GNSO Council on behalf of the IGO/INGO PDP WG: 'and specifically requests the SCI to review and, if deemed appropriate, recommend revised or additional language to apply to situations where working groups may reach sufficient consensus against a particular proposal such that the appropriate consensus level cannot accurately be described as No Consensus/Divergence'? The additions / edits may be helpful clarifications but they seem to go beyond the scope of the specific question put forward to the SCI. But maybe I am missing something, so I am looking forward to discussing this further on the call later today.
Best regards,
Marika
On 08/04/14 13:12, "Amr Elsadr" <aelsadr@egyptig.org> wrote:
Hi,
I¹ve taken a stab at some very slight word-smithing on the last draft of the WG consensus levels discussed at our F2F in Singapore. I¹ve tried to capture the comments made, and a little more and look forward to a discussion on this during today¹s call.
I have admittedly done this only today, so have not had time to consult with the rest of the sub-team. Greg, Thomas, CintraŠ, my apologies.
Thanks.
Amr
<default.xml>
* * *
This E-mail, along with any attachments, is considered confidential and may well be legally privileged. If you have received it in error, you are on notice of its status. Please notify us immediately by reply e-mail and then delete this message from your system. Please do not copy it or use it for any purposes, or disclose its contents to any other person. Thank you for your cooperation.
* * *
To ensure compliance with Treasury Department regulations, we inform you that, unless otherwise indicated in writing, any U.S. Federal tax advice contained in this communication (including any attachments) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (1) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or applicable state and local provisions or (2) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any tax-related matters addressed herein.
Disclaimer Version RS.US.20.10.00
Dear Marie-Laure, We are sorry to see you go, particularly as you were the first member of the SCI from the NPOC! Having said that, I am sure that I speak for all members of the Committee, I would like to wish you well in your new position and look forward to seeing you again at the up-coming ICANN meetings.
From an administration point of view, we will look forward to welcoming your new NPOC alternate as and when she or he has been selected.
Kind regards, RA Ron Andruff RNA Partners <http://www.rnapartners.com> www.rnapartners.com From: owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org [mailto:owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org] On Behalf Of marie-laure Lemineur Sent: Monday, April 14, 2014 01:19 To: gnso-secs@icann.org Cc: <gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org> Subject: Re: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] GNSO WG Definitions of Decision-Making Levels Dear all, This is to inform you that, I have recently moved to another country for work reasons and the time zone where I am now based is UTC +7. Since this working group has its sessions scheduled at 19UTC, it makes it difficult for me to attend the conference calls. Therefore, I have taken the decision to withdraw from this particular working group. Since Cintra is the main NPOC representative and I am the alternate, I trust this won´t disrupt too much the work of the group. I wish you all the best of luck and please keep up with the good work you have all been doing so far! Best, Marie-laure On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 10:23 PM, Shatan, Gregory S. <GShatan@reedsmith.com <mailto:GShatan@reedsmith.com> > wrote: I've been giving this some thought (which unfortunately I kept to myself). There are really 2 problems here. 1. Dealing with the "consensus against" problem. This is our explicit assignment. 2. The Decision-Making Levels are not well-drafted in certain places. There is inconsistent use of language (different words used to mean the same thing), inconsistent use of "unstated phrases" (leaving out the same or similar phrase when reiterating a point) creating ambiguity, etc. We are trying to solve both problems at the same time. We started down this road because the fix needs to change all of the levels (except perhaps Divergence). Then, slowly (as we became more comfortable with the document), we started to see the list's infirmities and tried to resolve them. In my day job, I call this "drafting creep." The problem with drafting creep is that it opens up issues beyond the one you were fixing, and intertwines those two sets of issues in a way that complicates review by others. This is what Marika is seeing. I think we need to reverse course for the moment. I think both (1) and (2) above are problems that need to be addressed. But only (1) is really on our plate. I'll make the moderately radical suggestion that we keep our hands off the current levels (in spite of their issues) and address the "consensus against" issue (which does affect all the levels) in a footnote (Amr's alternative 3, below). At some later time, we can then follow up and improve the drafting of the levels, separate from dealing with the "consensus against" issue. Just my thoughts. I can try to draft a footnote today, but it's a bit of a messy day (3 ICANN/IG calls plus that "day job"), so I'm not sure if I can. Greg Shatan Gregory S. Shatan Partner Reed Smith LLP 599 Lexington Avenue New York, NY 10022 212.549.0275 (Phone) 917.816.6428 (Mobile) 212.521.5450 (Fax) gshatan@reedsmith.com <mailto:gshatan@reedsmith.com> www.reedsmith.com <http://www.reedsmith.com> -----Original Message----- From: owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org <mailto:owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org> [mailto:owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org <mailto:owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org> ] On Behalf Of Amr Elsadr Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 7:40 AM To: Marika Konings Cc: <gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org <mailto:gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org> > Subject: Re: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] GNSO WG Definitions of Decision-Making Levels Thanks for the feedback, Marika. I’d be grateful if you pointed out the specifics in the document on today’s call. I have to admit, I’ve been struggling with it. I’m no lawyer…, that’s for sure. :) In any case, the sub-team’s intent has always been to address revisions to take into consideration when consensus against WG recommendations is the situation, as divergence does not reflect this situation (as was the case with the IGO/INGO WG). That’s probably why the definition of divergence is the only one that hasn’t really been substantively changed. The focus has been on the rest so far. Still…, we do have the three ways to move forward that Ron had previously suggested: 1. Recommend changes in the definitions to the GNSO Council when the SCI finalizes them. 2. To not recommend any changes at this time, and postpone changes to see if they indeed become necessary in the future (although there have been some recommendations not to do this). 3. The third option is to not change the definitions, but instead to add a footnote to them indicating that the decision-making levels could be used when consensus is for or against WG recommendations. Thanks again, Marika. Amr On Apr 8, 2014, at 1:24 PM, Marika Konings <marika.konings@icann.org <mailto:marika.konings@icann.org> > wrote:
Apologies for having missed the F2F meeting in Singapore, but how do these changes address the specific question that was put forward by the GNSO Council on behalf of the IGO/INGO PDP WG: 'and specifically requests the SCI to review and, if deemed appropriate, recommend revised or additional language to apply to situations where working groups may reach sufficient consensus against a particular proposal such that the appropriate consensus level cannot accurately be described as No Consensus/Divergence'? The additions / edits may be helpful clarifications but they seem to go beyond the scope of the specific question put forward to the SCI. But maybe I am missing something, so I am looking forward to discussing this further on the call later today.
Best regards,
Marika
On 08/04/14 13:12, "Amr Elsadr" <aelsadr@egyptig.org <mailto:aelsadr@egyptig.org> > wrote:
Hi,
I¹ve taken a stab at some very slight word-smithing on the last draft of the WG consensus levels discussed at our F2F in Singapore. I¹ve tried to capture the comments made, and a little more and look forward to a discussion on this during today¹s call.
I have admittedly done this only today, so have not had time to consult with the rest of the sub-team. Greg, Thomas, CintraŠ, my apologies.
Thanks.
Amr
<default.xml>
* * * This E-mail, along with any attachments, is considered confidential and may well be legally privileged. If you have received it in error, you are on notice of its status. Please notify us immediately by reply e-mail and then delete this message from your system. Please do not copy it or use it for any purposes, or disclose its contents to any other person. Thank you for your cooperation. * * * To ensure compliance with Treasury Department regulations, we inform you that, unless otherwise indicated in writing, any U.S. Federal tax advice contained in this communication (including any attachments) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (1) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or applicable state and local provisions or (2) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any tax-related matters addressed herein. Disclaimer Version RS.US.20.10.00
Dear Ron, Thank you for your kind words. We will make arrangements for an NPOC alternate soonest. I really think that the work the SCI, and its members, is doing is of great benefit to the GNSO. I was not familiar with its mandate before joining and now, I can see the value in it even if I have been involved only for a very short while. Best, Marie-laure On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 11:44 PM, Ron Andruff <randruff@rnapartners.com>wrote:
Dear Marie-Laure,
We are sorry to see you go, particularly as you were the first member of the SCI from the NPOC! Having said that, I am sure that I speak for all members of the Committee, I would like to wish you well in your new position and look forward to seeing you again at the up-coming ICANN meetings.
From an administration point of view, we will look forward to welcoming your new NPOC alternate as and when she or he has been selected.
Kind regards,
RA
*Ron Andruff*
*RNA Partners*
*www.rnapartners.com <http://www.rnapartners.com> *
*From:* owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org [mailto: owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *marie-laure Lemineur *Sent:* Monday, April 14, 2014 01:19 *To:* gnso-secs@icann.org
*Cc:* <gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] GNSO WG Definitions of Decision-Making Levels
Dear all,
This is to inform you that, I have recently moved to another country for work reasons and the time zone where I am now based is UTC +7. Since this working group has its sessions scheduled at 19UTC, it makes it difficult for me to attend the conference calls.
Therefore, I have taken the decision to withdraw from this particular working group. Since Cintra is the main NPOC representative and I am the alternate, I trust this won´t disrupt too much the work of the group. I wish you all the best of luck and please keep up with the good work you have all been doing so far!
Best,
Marie-laure
On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 10:23 PM, Shatan, Gregory S. <GShatan@reedsmith.com> wrote:
I've been giving this some thought (which unfortunately I kept to myself). There are really 2 problems here.
1. Dealing with the "consensus against" problem. This is our explicit assignment. 2. The Decision-Making Levels are not well-drafted in certain places. There is inconsistent use of language (different words used to mean the same thing), inconsistent use of "unstated phrases" (leaving out the same or similar phrase when reiterating a point) creating ambiguity, etc.
We are trying to solve both problems at the same time. We started down this road because the fix needs to change all of the levels (except perhaps Divergence). Then, slowly (as we became more comfortable with the document), we started to see the list's infirmities and tried to resolve them. In my day job, I call this "drafting creep." The problem with drafting creep is that it opens up issues beyond the one you were fixing, and intertwines those two sets of issues in a way that complicates review by others. This is what Marika is seeing.
I think we need to reverse course for the moment. I think both (1) and (2) above are problems that need to be addressed. But only (1) is really on our plate.
I'll make the moderately radical suggestion that we keep our hands off the current levels (in spite of their issues) and address the "consensus against" issue (which does affect all the levels) in a footnote (Amr's alternative 3, below).
At some later time, we can then follow up and improve the drafting of the levels, separate from dealing with the "consensus against" issue.
Just my thoughts. I can try to draft a footnote today, but it's a bit of a messy day (3 ICANN/IG calls plus that "day job"), so I'm not sure if I can.
Greg Shatan
Gregory S. Shatan Partner Reed Smith LLP 599 Lexington Avenue New York, NY 10022 212.549.0275 (Phone) 917.816.6428 (Mobile) 212.521.5450 (Fax) gshatan@reedsmith.com www.reedsmith.com
-----Original Message----- From: owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org [mailto: owner-gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org] On Behalf Of Amr Elsadr Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 7:40 AM To: Marika Konings Cc: <gnso-improvem-impl-sc@icann.org> Subject: Re: [gnso-improvem-impl-sc] GNSO WG Definitions of Decision-Making Levels
Thanks for the feedback, Marika. I’d be grateful if you pointed out the specifics in the document on today’s call. I have to admit, I’ve been struggling with it. I’m no lawyer…, that’s for sure. :)
In any case, the sub-team’s intent has always been to address revisions to take into consideration when consensus against WG recommendations is the situation, as divergence does not reflect this situation (as was the case with the IGO/INGO WG). That’s probably why the definition of divergence is the only one that hasn’t really been substantively changed. The focus has been on the rest so far.
Still…, we do have the three ways to move forward that Ron had previously suggested:
1. Recommend changes in the definitions to the GNSO Council when the SCI finalizes them.
2. To not recommend any changes at this time, and postpone changes to see if they indeed become necessary in the future (although there have been some recommendations not to do this). 3. The third option is to not change the definitions, but instead to add a footnote to them indicating that the decision-making levels could be used when consensus is for or against WG recommendations.
Thanks again, Marika.
Amr
On Apr 8, 2014, at 1:24 PM, Marika Konings <marika.konings@icann.org> wrote:
Apologies for having missed the F2F meeting in Singapore, but how do these changes address the specific question that was put forward by the GNSO Council on behalf of the IGO/INGO PDP WG: 'and specifically requests the SCI to review and, if deemed appropriate, recommend revised or additional language to apply to situations where working groups may reach sufficient consensus against a particular proposal such that the appropriate consensus level cannot accurately be described as No Consensus/Divergence'? The additions / edits may be helpful clarifications but they seem to go beyond the scope of the specific question put forward to the SCI. But maybe I am missing something, so I am looking forward to discussing this further on the call later today.
Best regards,
Marika
On 08/04/14 13:12, "Amr Elsadr" <aelsadr@egyptig.org> wrote:
Hi,
I¹ve taken a stab at some very slight word-smithing on the last draft of the WG consensus levels discussed at our F2F in Singapore. I¹ve tried to capture the comments made, and a little more and look forward to a discussion on this during today¹s call.
I have admittedly done this only today, so have not had time to consult with the rest of the sub-team. Greg, Thomas, CintraŠ, my apologies.
Thanks.
Amr
<default.xml>
* * *
This E-mail, along with any attachments, is considered confidential and may well be legally privileged. If you have received it in error, you are on notice of its status. Please notify us immediately by reply e-mail and then delete this message from your system. Please do not copy it or use it for any purposes, or disclose its contents to any other person. Thank you for your cooperation.
* * *
To ensure compliance with Treasury Department regulations, we inform you that, unless otherwise indicated in writing, any U.S. Federal tax advice contained in this communication (including any attachments) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (1) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or applicable state and local provisions or (2) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any tax-related matters addressed herein.
Disclaimer Version RS.US.20.10.00
participants (6)
-
Aikman-Scalese, Anne -
Amr Elsadr -
marie-laure Lemineur -
Marika Konings -
Ron Andruff -
Shatan, Gregory S.