here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve matters between themselves In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed. PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.)
I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted parties. If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke the current process. What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes sense. I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc... Volker
Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue
*
In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve matters between themselves
In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance
Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings
If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal
If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed.
PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com <http://www.haven2.com>, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.)
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's not the intent. the intent is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their registrar. the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high. On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> wrote:
I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted parties.
If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke the current process.
What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes sense.
I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc...
Volker
Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue
In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve matters between themselves
In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance
Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings
If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal
If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed.
PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.)
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann - legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems
CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu
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PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.)
I really agree with Mikey here. The issue we are facing is when a registrar does not take action over an improper transfer of a domain name - to the detriment of the registrant. What is being suggested here is to ensure that, when the registrant can establish an improper transfer that the relevant registrar must commence the TDRP action. And as Mikey suggests, the filter (to be sure of the bona fides of the registrant's case) is a requirement for documentation that ICANN can rule on. If there is a genuine case for the registrant, then the relevant registrar must initiate the TDRP. It doesn't stop being anything other than an inter-registrar process. It just ensures that the registrar cannot refuse to take action when a registrant's domain name has been wrongly transferred. Holly On 03/12/2013, at 6:33 AM, Mike O'Connor wrote:
i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's not the intent. the intent is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their registrar. the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high.
On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> wrote:
I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted parties.
If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke the current process.
What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes sense.
I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc...
Volker
Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue
In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve matters between themselves
In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance
Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings
If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal
If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed.
PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.)
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann - legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems
CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.)
Hi Mike, you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an access in the first place. If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another story, but that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to charge for this service (to cover the work needed to handle the process). Volker
i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's not the intent. the intent is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their registrar. the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high.
On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> wrote:
I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted parties.
If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke the current process.
What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes sense.
I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc...
Volker
Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue
*
In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve matters between themselves
In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance
Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings
If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal
If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed.
PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com <http://www.haven2.com/>, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.)
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann - legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems
CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com <http://www.haven2.com>, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.)
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
Volker Greimann wrote ...
you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an access in the first place.
Summed up very nicely :)
If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another story, but that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to charge for this service (to cover the work needed to handle the process).
And it would need to be 'pay the initial fees upfront' and 'no refunds' clauses. Rob
hi Volker, i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant to transfer out) or is presumptively denying the registrant due process in a dispute between registrars. this was recognized as an oversight in the policy back in the misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was launched. i don't care how this happens. registrars are probably in the best position to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to leave that discussion up to them. i like James' "put pressure on Registrars to comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler one but i can live with anything that fixes that problem. what i'm not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in their current situation where these decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide courts. On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> wrote:
Hi Mike,
you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an access in the first place.
If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another story, but that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to charge for this service (to cover the work needed to handle the process).
Volker
i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's not the intent. the intent is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their registrar. the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high.
On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> wrote:
I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted parties.
If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke the current process.
What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes sense.
I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc...
Volker
Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue
In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve matters between themselves
In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance
Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings
If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal
If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed.
PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.)
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann - legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems
CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.)
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net
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Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems
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Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
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Hi Mike,
i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant to transfer out) or is presumptively denying the registrant due process in a dispute between registrars. this was recognized as an oversight in the policy back in the misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was launched. In the first case, the right venue for the registrant is ICANN compliance, where he can lodge a complaint against his registrar. In the second case, I still not see that denying a registrant access to a process not designed for him denies him due process. I do not see that this process is "due" to registrants. i don't care how this happens. registrars are probably in the best position to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to leave that discussion up to them. i like James' "put pressure on Registrars to comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler one but i can live with anything that fixes that problem. what i'm not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in their current situation where these decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide courts. A registrant can always take recourse with ICANN compliance if his registrar violates its obligations under the RAA (which includes all consensus policies): http://www.icann.org/en/resources/compliance/complaints/transfer
Remember, were are purely talking process here, and registrar process violations are a compliance matter. Compliance action will force the violating registrar to fix the breach, therefore resolving the registrants issue. Best regards, Volker
On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> wrote:
Hi Mike,
you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an access in the first place.
If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another story, but that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to charge for this service (to cover the work needed to handle the process).
Volker
i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's not the intent. the intent is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their registrar. the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high.
On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> wrote:
I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted parties.
If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke the current process.
What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes sense.
I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc...
Volker
Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue
*
In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve matters between themselves
In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance
Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings
If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal
If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed.
PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com <http://www.haven2.com/>, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.)
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Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net
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Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann - legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net
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-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net
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Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann - legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net
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-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
Is there a specific mechanism for Registrants to complain about their Registrar? Because I get complaints and I say "go to Compliance" but I don't think there is a process (or I'm unaware of it). Perhaps, if Compliance is the right home for all Registrant-initiated disputes (which seems to me like a slippery slope because I am pretty sure ICANN's compliance team is not staffed to handle that volume of complaints), then the work product of this committee is to make a recommendation that ICANN set up a position/ ticketing system/dispute process for Registrant disputes. But I think we have to answer the question. It may be that this stuff doesn't go in the TDRP at all, but we can't say Registrants who are the victim of wrongful transfers or failures to transfer have no recourse outside of the court systems because the same jurisdictional issues and timing issues and cost issues that predated the UDRP arise. We need to have some sort of answer to the question "What about when a Registrant is aggrieved (by the Registrar or where the Registrar won't initiate the TDRP process)"? Kristine From: owner-gnso-irtpd@icann.org [mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 10:22 AM To: Mike O'Connor Cc: gnso-irtpd@icann.org Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP Hi Mike, i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant to transfer out) or is presumptively denying the registrant due process in a dispute between registrars. this was recognized as an oversight in the policy back in the misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was launched. In the first case, the right venue for the registrant is ICANN compliance, where he can lodge a complaint against his registrar. In the second case, I still not see that denying a registrant access to a process not designed for him denies him due process. I do not see that this process is "due" to registrants. i don't care how this happens. registrars are probably in the best position to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to leave that discussion up to them. i like James' "put pressure on Registrars to comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler one but i can live with anything that fixes that problem. what i'm not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in their current situation where these decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide courts. A registrant can always take recourse with ICANN compliance if his registrar violates its obligations under the RAA (which includes all consensus policies): http://www.icann.org/en/resources/compliance/complaints/transfer Remember, were are purely talking process here, and registrar process violations are a compliance matter. Compliance action will force the violating registrar to fix the breach, therefore resolving the registrants issue. Best regards, Volker On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> wrote: Hi Mike, you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an access in the first place. If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another story, but that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to charge for this service (to cover the work needed to handle the process). Volker i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's not the intent. the intent is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their registrar. the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high. On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> wrote: I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted parties. If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke the current process. What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes sense. I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc... Volker Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue · In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve matters between themselves In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed. PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com<http://www.haven2.com/>, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net/> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.rrpproxy.net/> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.brandshelter.com/> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu/> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net/> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.rrpproxy.net/> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.brandshelter.com/> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu/> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com<http://www.haven2.com/>, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net/> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.rrpproxy.net/> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.brandshelter.com/> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu/> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net/> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.rrpproxy.net/> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.brandshelter.com/> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu/> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com<http://www.haven2.com>, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
Hi Kristine, yes, there is. It is present on the ICANN pages, and linked from the Internic site. Here is the transfer-related page: http://www.icann.org/en/resources/compliance/complaints/transfer This opens up a form where the registrant can initiate a compliance action against his registrar, and this is a regular process that sees much more use than the TDRP. AFAIK, there already is a ticketing system behind this at ICANN compliance that follows the 1-2-3 compliance process. Regarding the recourse issue, I have recently learned that one reason that INGOs and IGOs vehemently demanded a process to protect their rights seperate from the UDRP was that they cannot accept the clause that would force them to agree to any local jurisdiction. So I learned that having common jurisdiction may not even be desirable for some registrants. With regard of determining your "Waht if..." question, I think we first need to seperate out the possible scenarios to determin which course of action is needed. maybe we will find that there already are current processes that fit the bill perfectly. Volker
Is there a specific mechanism for Registrants to complain about their Registrar? Because I get complaints and I say "go to Compliance" but I don't think there is a process (or I'm unaware of it). Perhaps, if Compliance is the right home for all Registrant-initiated disputes (which seems to me like a slippery slope because I am pretty sure ICANN's compliance team is not staffed to handle that volume of complaints), then the work product of this committee is to make a recommendation that ICANN set up a position/ ticketing system/dispute process for Registrant disputes.
But I think we have to answer the question. It may be that this stuff doesn't go in the TDRP at all, but we can't say Registrants who are the victim of wrongful transfers or failures to transfer have no recourse outside of the court systems because the same jurisdictional issues and timing issues and cost issues that predated the UDRP arise. We need to have some sort of answer to the question "What about when a Registrant is aggrieved (by the Registrar or where the Registrar won't initiate the TDRP process)"?
Kristine
*From:*owner-gnso-irtpd@icann.org [mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Volker Greimann *Sent:* Tuesday, December 03, 2013 10:22 AM *To:* Mike O'Connor *Cc:* gnso-irtpd@icann.org *Subject:* Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
Hi Mike,
i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant to transfer out) or is presumptively denying the registrant due process in a dispute between registrars. this was recognized as an oversight in the policy back in the misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was launched.
In the first case, the right venue for the registrant is ICANN compliance, where he can lodge a complaint against his registrar. In the second case, I still not see that denying a registrant access to a process not designed for him denies him due process. I do not see that this process is "due" to registrants.
i don't care how this happens. registrars are probably in the best position to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to leave that discussion up to them. i like James' "put pressure on Registrars to comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler one but i can live with anything that fixes that problem. what i'm not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in their current situation where these decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide courts.
A registrant can always take recourse with ICANN compliance if his registrar violates its obligations under the RAA (which includes all consensus policies): http://www.icann.org/en/resources/compliance/complaints/transfer
Remember, were are purely talking process here, and registrar process violations are a compliance matter. Compliance action will force the violating registrar to fix the breach, therefore resolving the registrants issue.
Best regards,
Volker
On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> wrote:
Hi Mike,
you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an access in the first place.
If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another story, but that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to charge for this service (to cover the work needed to handle the process).
Volker
i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's not the intent. the intent is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their registrar. the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high.
On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> wrote:
I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted parties.
If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke the current process.
What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes sense.
I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc...
Volker
Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue
·In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve matters between themselves
In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance
Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings
If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal
If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed.
PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com <http://www.haven2.com/>, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.)
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--------------------------------------------
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Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
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66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
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This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
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-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
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Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
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Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu/>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann - legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
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Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu/>
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com <http://www.haven2.com>, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.)
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann - legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
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Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
Thanks Volker. On the topic of jurisdiction, it's my understanding that it's the lesser of the evils. I am sure there is a queue waiting to bust that provision open. :) Kristine From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:03 AM To: Dorrain, Kristine; Mike O'Connor Cc: gnso-irtpd@icann.org Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP Hi Kristine, yes, there is. It is present on the ICANN pages, and linked from the Internic site. Here is the transfer-related page: http://www.icann.org/en/resources/compliance/complaints/transfer This opens up a form where the registrant can initiate a compliance action against his registrar, and this is a regular process that sees much more use than the TDRP. AFAIK, there already is a ticketing system behind this at ICANN compliance that follows the 1-2-3 compliance process. Regarding the recourse issue, I have recently learned that one reason that INGOs and IGOs vehemently demanded a process to protect their rights seperate from the UDRP was that they cannot accept the clause that would force them to agree to any local jurisdiction. So I learned that having common jurisdiction may not even be desirable for some registrants. With regard of determining your "Waht if..." question, I think we first need to seperate out the possible scenarios to determin which course of action is needed. maybe we will find that there already are current processes that fit the bill perfectly. Volker Is there a specific mechanism for Registrants to complain about their Registrar? Because I get complaints and I say "go to Compliance" but I don't think there is a process (or I'm unaware of it). Perhaps, if Compliance is the right home for all Registrant-initiated disputes (which seems to me like a slippery slope because I am pretty sure ICANN's compliance team is not staffed to handle that volume of complaints), then the work product of this committee is to make a recommendation that ICANN set up a position/ ticketing system/dispute process for Registrant disputes. But I think we have to answer the question. It may be that this stuff doesn't go in the TDRP at all, but we can't say Registrants who are the victim of wrongful transfers or failures to transfer have no recourse outside of the court systems because the same jurisdictional issues and timing issues and cost issues that predated the UDRP arise. We need to have some sort of answer to the question "What about when a Registrant is aggrieved (by the Registrar or where the Registrar won't initiate the TDRP process)"? Kristine From: owner-gnso-irtpd@icann.org<mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd@icann.org> [mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 10:22 AM To: Mike O'Connor Cc: gnso-irtpd@icann.org<mailto:gnso-irtpd@icann.org> Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP Hi Mike, i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant to transfer out) or is presumptively denying the registrant due process in a dispute between registrars. this was recognized as an oversight in the policy back in the misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was launched. In the first case, the right venue for the registrant is ICANN compliance, where he can lodge a complaint against his registrar. In the second case, I still not see that denying a registrant access to a process not designed for him denies him due process. I do not see that this process is "due" to registrants. i don't care how this happens. registrars are probably in the best position to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to leave that discussion up to them. i like James' "put pressure on Registrars to comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler one but i can live with anything that fixes that problem. what i'm not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in their current situation where these decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide courts. A registrant can always take recourse with ICANN compliance if his registrar violates its obligations under the RAA (which includes all consensus policies): http://www.icann.org/en/resources/compliance/complaints/transfer Remember, were are purely talking process here, and registrar process violations are a compliance matter. Compliance action will force the violating registrar to fix the breach, therefore resolving the registrants issue. Best regards, Volker On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> wrote: Hi Mike, you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an access in the first place. If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another story, but that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to charge for this service (to cover the work needed to handle the process). Volker i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's not the intent. the intent is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their registrar. the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high. On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> wrote: I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted parties. If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke the current process. What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes sense. I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc... Volker Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue · In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve matters between themselves In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed. PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com<http://www.haven2.com/>, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net/> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.rrpproxy.net/> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.brandshelter.com/> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu/> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net/> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.rrpproxy.net/> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.brandshelter.com/> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu/> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com<http://www.haven2.com/>, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net/> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.rrpproxy.net/> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.brandshelter.com/> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu/> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net/> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.rrpproxy.net/> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.brandshelter.com/> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu/> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com<http://www.haven2.com>, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
I agree with both Mikey and Kristine It seems to me that the next step is to specifically ask compliance for their advice on - any process that the registrant can use - in what circumstances - at what cost (if any) - whether they have sufficient powers to enforce the remedy - what kind of documentation they would need to ensure themselves that it is a bona fides complaint (taking up Mikey's point) Once we have all of that information, we can settle whether or not we can remove registrant's from this process - but not until then. I have talked with the Ombudsman, who told me that he can't handle 80% of the complaints he receives as out of jurisdiction. I suspect, but don't know , that some of them may relate to this issue - and they are not being resolved. So please, could we fully inform ourselves of what should be in place for a registrant to take a legitimate complaint to Compliance, what remedies are available, at what cost, and what documentation is needed by compliance. Then we can progress this issue Holly On 04/12/2013, at 4:03 AM, Volker Greimann wrote:
Hi Kristine,
yes, there is. It is present on the ICANN pages, and linked from the Internic site.
Here is the transfer-related page:
http://www.icann.org/en/resources/compliance/complaints/transfer
This opens up a form where the registrant can initiate a compliance action against his registrar, and this is a regular process that sees much more use than the TDRP. AFAIK, there already is a ticketing system behind this at ICANN compliance that follows the 1-2-3 compliance process.
Regarding the recourse issue, I have recently learned that one reason that INGOs and IGOs vehemently demanded a process to protect their rights seperate from the UDRP was that they cannot accept the clause that would force them to agree to any local jurisdiction. So I learned that having common jurisdiction may not even be desirable for some registrants.
With regard of determining your "Waht if..." question, I think we first need to seperate out the possible scenarios to determin which course of action is needed. maybe we will find that there already are current processes that fit the bill perfectly.
Volker
Is there a specific mechanism for Registrants to complain about their Registrar? Because I get complaints and I say “go to Compliance” but I don’t think there is a process (or I’m unaware of it). Perhaps, if Compliance is the right home for all Registrant-initiated disputes (which seems to me like a slippery slope because I am pretty sure ICANN’s compliance team is not staffed to handle that volume of complaints), then the work product of this committee is to make a recommendation that ICANN set up a position/ ticketing system/dispute process for Registrant disputes.
But I think we have to answer the question. It may be that this stuff doesn’t go in the TDRP at all, but we can’t say Registrants who are the victim of wrongful transfers or failures to transfer have no recourse outside of the court systems because the same jurisdictional issues and timing issues and cost issues that predated the UDRP arise. We need to have some sort of answer to the question “What about when a Registrant is aggrieved (by the Registrar or where the Registrar won’t initiate the TDRP process)”?
Kristine
From: owner-gnso-irtpd@icann.org [mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 10:22 AM To: Mike O'Connor Cc: gnso-irtpd@icann.org Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
Hi Mike, i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant to transfer out) or is presumptively denying the registrant due process in a dispute between registrars. this was recognized as an oversight in the policy back in the misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was launched. In the first case, the right venue for the registrant is ICANN compliance, where he can lodge a complaint against his registrar. In the second case, I still not see that denying a registrant access to a process not designed for him denies him due process. I do not see that this process is "due" to registrants.
i don't care how this happens. registrars are probably in the best position to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to leave that discussion up to them. i like James' "put pressure on Registrars to comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler one but i can live with anything that fixes that problem. what i'm not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in their current situation where these decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide courts. A registrant can always take recourse with ICANN compliance if his registrar violates its obligations under the RAA (which includes all consensus policies): http://www.icann.org/en/resources/compliance/complaints/transfer
Remember, were are purely talking process here, and registrar process violations are a compliance matter. Compliance action will force the violating registrar to fix the breach, therefore resolving the registrants issue.
Best regards,
Volker
On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> wrote:
Hi Mike,
you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an access in the first place.
If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another story, but that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to charge for this service (to cover the work needed to handle the process).
Volker
i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's not the intent. the intent is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their registrar. the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high.
On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> wrote:
I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted parties.
If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke the current process.
What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes sense.
I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc...
Volker
Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue
· In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve matters between themselves
In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance
Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings
If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal
If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed.
PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.)
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net
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Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann - legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net
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-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net
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Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann - legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net
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This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
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Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net
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Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems
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Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann - legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net
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Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems
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This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net
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Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann - legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net
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Good thoughts everyone. I think perhaps we should try to capture the various scenarios in the “Reasons for Denial” area, where a registrar can legitimately deny a registrant’s request to initiate a TDRP. For example: if the Registrant believes that the identity of the registrant is in question, or that they cannot substantiate that they were ever the legitimate registrant (or Transfer Contact) for the name pre-transfer. If its a scenario in which the registrar has violated the IRTP, (or even the shiny new TDRP we’re developing), then that is a matter for Compliance and the registrar's accreditation could be at-risk. But we should avoid any process where a registrar is compelled to initiate a TDRP that they believe is without merit, -and- be forced to pay for the proceedings. Thanks— J. From: Mike O'Connor <mike@haven2.com<mailto:mike@haven2.com>> Date: Tuesday, December 3, 2013 at 10:09 To: Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> Cc: "gnso-irtpd@icann.org<mailto:gnso-irtpd@icann.org>" <gnso-irtpd@icann.org<mailto:gnso-irtpd@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP hi Volker, i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant to transfer out) or is presumptively denying the registrant due process in a dispute between registrars. this was recognized as an oversight in the policy back in the misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was launched. i don't care how this happens. registrars are probably in the best position to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to leave that discussion up to them. i like James' "put pressure on Registrars to comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler one but i can live with anything that fixes that problem. what i'm not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in their current situation where these decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide courts. On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> wrote: Hi Mike, you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an access in the first place. If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another story, but that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to charge for this service (to cover the work needed to handle the process). Volker i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's not the intent. the intent is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their registrar. the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high. On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> wrote: I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted parties. If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke the current process. What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes sense. I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc... Volker Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue * In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve matters between themselves In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed. PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com<http://www.haven2.com/>, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net/> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.rrpproxy.net/>www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.brandshelter.com/> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu/> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net/> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.rrpproxy.net/>www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.brandshelter.com/> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu/> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com<http://www.haven2.com/>, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net/> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.rrpproxy.net/>www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.brandshelter.com/> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu/> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net/> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.rrpproxy.net/>www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.brandshelter.com/> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu/> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com<http://www.haven2.com>, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.)
Hi James, excellent points there. I think the case with your example is that this is not actually a case where a registrar is a party to the dispute. Maybe it is a star witness required to provide the information only it can provide, but not a party. Those roles are better left to prior and current registrant. This however begs the question if ICANN should implement another process for registrants to solve their disputes, or if this may not be better relegated to a future re-design of the UDRP? We could for example make a recommendation that the UDRP be expanded to cover also domain ownership issues in any future revision of that policy. Best, Volker
Good thoughts everyone. I think perhaps we should try to capture the various scenarios in the “Reasons for Denial” area, where a registrar can legitimately deny a registrant’s request to initiate a TDRP.
For example: if the Registrant believes that the identity of the registrant is in question, or that they cannot substantiate that they were ever the legitimate registrant (or Transfer Contact) for the name pre-transfer. If its a scenario in which the registrar has violated the IRTP, (or even the shiny new TDRP we’re developing), then that is a matter for Compliance and the registrar's accreditation could be at-risk. But we should avoid any process where a registrar is compelled to initiate a TDRP that they believe is without merit, -and- be forced to pay for the proceedings.
Thanks—
J.
From: Mike O'Connor <mike@haven2.com <mailto:mike@haven2.com>> Date: Tuesday, December 3, 2013 at 10:09 To: Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> Cc: "gnso-irtpd@icann.org <mailto:gnso-irtpd@icann.org>" <gnso-irtpd@icann.org <mailto:gnso-irtpd@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
hi Volker,
i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant to transfer out) or is presumptively denying the registrant due process in a dispute between registrars. this was recognized as an oversight in the policy back in the misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was launched.
i don't care how this happens. registrars are probably in the best position to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to leave that discussion up to them. i like James' "put pressure on Registrars to comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler one but i can live with anything that fixes that problem. what i'm not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in their current situation where these decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide courts.
On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> wrote:
Hi Mike,
you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an access in the first place.
If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another story, but that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to charge for this service (to cover the work needed to handle the process).
Volker
i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's not the intent. the intent is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their registrar. the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high.
On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> wrote:
I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted parties.
If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke the current process.
What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes sense.
I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc...
Volker
Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue
*
In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve matters between themselves
In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance
Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings
If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal
If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed.
PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com <http://www.haven2.com/>, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.)
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann - legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems
CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com <http://www.haven2.com/>, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.)
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann - legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems
CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com <http://www.haven2.com>, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.)
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
Just for the record, I think adding a Registrants option to the UDRP would be just as mucked up as adding it here. In my humble opinion this warrants an entirely new policy or none at all. We don't need to reinvent the Rules....UDRPs Rules are great. Just create the Policy itself, which is entirely TM focused and would be a beast to open up to non-TM holders. :) Kristine From: owner-gnso-irtpd@icann.org [mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:09 AM To: James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor Cc: gnso-irtpd@icann.org Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP Hi James, excellent points there. I think the case with your example is that this is not actually a case where a registrar is a party to the dispute. Maybe it is a star witness required to provide the information only it can provide, but not a party. Those roles are better left to prior and current registrant. This however begs the question if ICANN should implement another process for registrants to solve their disputes, or if this may not be better relegated to a future re-design of the UDRP? We could for example make a recommendation that the UDRP be expanded to cover also domain ownership issues in any future revision of that policy. Best, Volker Good thoughts everyone. I think perhaps we should try to capture the various scenarios in the "Reasons for Denial" area, where a registrar can legitimately deny a registrant's request to initiate a TDRP. For example: if the Registrant believes that the identity of the registrant is in question, or that they cannot substantiate that they were ever the legitimate registrant (or Transfer Contact) for the name pre-transfer. If its a scenario in which the registrar has violated the IRTP, (or even the shiny new TDRP we're developing), then that is a matter for Compliance and the registrar's accreditation could be at-risk. But we should avoid any process where a registrar is compelled to initiate a TDRP that they believe is without merit, -and- be forced to pay for the proceedings. Thanks- J. From: Mike O'Connor <mike@haven2.com<mailto:mike@haven2.com>> Date: Tuesday, December 3, 2013 at 10:09 To: Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> Cc: "gnso-irtpd@icann.org<mailto:gnso-irtpd@icann.org>" <gnso-irtpd@icann.org<mailto:gnso-irtpd@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP hi Volker, i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant to transfer out) or is presumptively denying the registrant due process in a dispute between registrars. this was recognized as an oversight in the policy back in the misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was launched. i don't care how this happens. registrars are probably in the best position to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to leave that discussion up to them. i like James' "put pressure on Registrars to comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler one but i can live with anything that fixes that problem. what i'm not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in their current situation where these decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide courts. On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> wrote: Hi Mike, you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an access in the first place. If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another story, but that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to charge for this service (to cover the work needed to handle the process). Volker i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's not the intent. the intent is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their registrar. the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high. On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> wrote: I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted parties. If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke the current process. What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes sense. I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc... Volker Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue · In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve matters between themselves In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed. PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com<http://www.haven2.com/>, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net/> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.rrpproxy.net/>www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.brandshelter.com/> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu/> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net/> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.rrpproxy.net/>www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.brandshelter.com/> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu/> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com<http://www.haven2.com/>, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net/> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.rrpproxy.net/>www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.brandshelter.com/> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu/> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net/> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.rrpproxy.net/>www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.brandshelter.com/> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu/> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com<http://www.haven2.com>, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
The issue of Trademark aside, I see many more similarities between the UDRP and the issue of legitimate ownership of a domain than between that issue and the TDRP. After all, both are disputes between parties about who should be the legitimate owner of a domain name. So while we may not want to open the UDRP to new complaints, we may want to look at creating a UDRP2 that is designed for exactly these issues. In both cases the registrar is asked to do certain things in preparation for the dispute and as its result, in both parts the question of the ultimate ownership of a domain name is decided by an independant panel. Volker
Just for the record, I think adding a Registrants option to the UDRP would be just as mucked up as adding it here. In my humble opinion this warrants an entirely new policy or none at all. We don't need to reinvent the Rules....UDRPs Rules are great. Just create the Policy itself, which is entirely TM focused and would be a beast to open up to non-TM holders. J
Kristine
*From:*owner-gnso-irtpd@icann.org [mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Volker Greimann *Sent:* Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:09 AM *To:* James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor *Cc:* gnso-irtpd@icann.org *Subject:* Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
Hi James,
excellent points there. I think the case with your example is that this is not actually a case where a registrar is a party to the dispute. Maybe it is a star witness required to provide the information only it can provide, but not a party. Those roles are better left to prior and current registrant.
This however begs the question if ICANN should implement another process for registrants to solve their disputes, or if this may not be better relegated to a future re-design of the UDRP? We could for example make a recommendation that the UDRP be expanded to cover also domain ownership issues in any future revision of that policy.
Best,
Volker
Good thoughts everyone. I think perhaps we should try to capture the various scenarios in the "Reasons for Denial" area, where a registrar can legitimately deny a registrant's request to initiate a TDRP.
For example: if the Registrant believes that the identity of the registrant is in question, or that they cannot substantiate that they were ever the legitimate registrant (or Transfer Contact) for the name pre-transfer. If its a scenario in which the registrar has violated the IRTP, (or even the shiny new TDRP we're developing), then that is a matter for Compliance and the registrar's accreditation could be at-risk. But we should avoid any process where a registrar is compelled to initiate a TDRP that they believe is without merit, -and- be forced to pay for the proceedings.
Thanks---
J.
*From: *Mike O'Connor <mike@haven2.com <mailto:mike@haven2.com>> *Date: *Tuesday, December 3, 2013 at 10:09 *To: *Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> *Cc: *"gnso-irtpd@icann.org <mailto:gnso-irtpd@icann.org>" <gnso-irtpd@icann.org <mailto:gnso-irtpd@icann.org>> *Subject: *Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
hi Volker,
i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant to transfer out) or is presumptively denying the registrant due process in a dispute between registrars. this was recognized as an oversight in the policy back in the misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was launched.
i don't care how this happens. registrars are probably in the best position to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to leave that discussion up to them. i like James' "put pressure on Registrars to comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler one but i can live with anything that fixes that problem. what i'm not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in their current situation where these decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide courts.
On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> wrote:
Hi Mike,
you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an access in the first place.
If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another story, but that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to charge for this service (to cover the work needed to handle the process).
Volker
i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's not the intent. the intent is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their registrar. the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high.
On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> wrote:
I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted parties.
If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke the current process.
What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes sense.
I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc...
Volker
Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue
·In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve matters between themselves
In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance
Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings
If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal
If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed.
PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com <http://www.haven2.com/>, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.)
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- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
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--------------------------------------------
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Best regards,
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Key-Systems GmbH
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Best regards,
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Key-Systems GmbH
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Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
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Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
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-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
I agree. From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:41 AM To: Dorrain, Kristine; James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor Cc: gnso-irtpd@icann.org Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP The issue of Trademark aside, I see many more similarities between the UDRP and the issue of legitimate ownership of a domain than between that issue and the TDRP. After all, both are disputes between parties about who should be the legitimate owner of a domain name. So while we may not want to open the UDRP to new complaints, we may want to look at creating a UDRP2 that is designed for exactly these issues. In both cases the registrar is asked to do certain things in preparation for the dispute and as its result, in both parts the question of the ultimate ownership of a domain name is decided by an independant panel. Volker Just for the record, I think adding a Registrants option to the UDRP would be just as mucked up as adding it here. In my humble opinion this warrants an entirely new policy or none at all. We don't need to reinvent the Rules....UDRPs Rules are great. Just create the Policy itself, which is entirely TM focused and would be a beast to open up to non-TM holders. :) Kristine From: owner-gnso-irtpd@icann.org<mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd@icann.org> [mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:09 AM To: James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor Cc: gnso-irtpd@icann.org<mailto:gnso-irtpd@icann.org> Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP Hi James, excellent points there. I think the case with your example is that this is not actually a case where a registrar is a party to the dispute. Maybe it is a star witness required to provide the information only it can provide, but not a party. Those roles are better left to prior and current registrant. This however begs the question if ICANN should implement another process for registrants to solve their disputes, or if this may not be better relegated to a future re-design of the UDRP? We could for example make a recommendation that the UDRP be expanded to cover also domain ownership issues in any future revision of that policy. Best, Volker Good thoughts everyone. I think perhaps we should try to capture the various scenarios in the "Reasons for Denial" area, where a registrar can legitimately deny a registrant's request to initiate a TDRP. For example: if the Registrant believes that the identity of the registrant is in question, or that they cannot substantiate that they were ever the legitimate registrant (or Transfer Contact) for the name pre-transfer. If its a scenario in which the registrar has violated the IRTP, (or even the shiny new TDRP we're developing), then that is a matter for Compliance and the registrar's accreditation could be at-risk. But we should avoid any process where a registrar is compelled to initiate a TDRP that they believe is without merit, -and- be forced to pay for the proceedings. Thanks- J. From: Mike O'Connor <mike@haven2.com<mailto:mike@haven2.com>> Date: Tuesday, December 3, 2013 at 10:09 To: Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> Cc: "gnso-irtpd@icann.org<mailto:gnso-irtpd@icann.org>" <gnso-irtpd@icann.org<mailto:gnso-irtpd@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP hi Volker, i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant to transfer out) or is presumptively denying the registrant due process in a dispute between registrars. this was recognized as an oversight in the policy back in the misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was launched. i don't care how this happens. registrars are probably in the best position to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to leave that discussion up to them. i like James' "put pressure on Registrars to comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler one but i can live with anything that fixes that problem. what i'm not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in their current situation where these decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide courts. On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> wrote: Hi Mike, you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an access in the first place. If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another story, but that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to charge for this service (to cover the work needed to handle the process). Volker i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's not the intent. the intent is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their registrar. the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high. On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> wrote: I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted parties. If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke the current process. What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes sense. I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc... Volker Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue · In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve matters between themselves In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed. PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com<http://www.haven2.com/>, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net/> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.rrpproxy.net/>www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.brandshelter.com/> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu/> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net/> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.rrpproxy.net/>www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.brandshelter.com/> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu/> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com<http://www.haven2.com/>, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net/> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.rrpproxy.net/>www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.brandshelter.com/> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu/> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net/> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.rrpproxy.net/>www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.brandshelter.com/> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu/> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com<http://www.haven2.com>, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. 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I disagree. The UDRP is designed to correct misbehavior of a valid domain name owner relating to that owner’s use of a domain name, namely that the use of a domain infringes the rights of a trademark owner. The basis of the complaint is not that the domain name owner did not validly register the domain, but rather that the use of the domain is a trademark violation. The facts and circumstances of the ownership of trademark rights and the trademark infringement are outside of the knowledge of the registrars and registries. The UDRP procedures are designed to get the facts in front of the dispute resolution panel to provide the trademark owner with a remedy to trademark infringement that may be difficult or impossible to obtain judicially. The TDRP is about correcting a bad domain transfer, and the circumstances of the transfer are mostly known to the registrars and registries, but there might be some oversight that a registrar or a registrant would want corrected. I think we should focus on where the TDRP leaves a registrant or a registrar without a remedy, and only provide more procedures for scenarios where a remedy is not currently available. ____________________________ Kevin R Erdman Reichel IP LLP 212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280 Indianapolis, IN 46202 voice 317.677.0689 fax 317.454.1349 email kevin@reichelip.com skype kevimundo web www.reichelip.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dorrain, Kristine Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 12:43 PM To: 'Volker Greimann' ; James M. Bladel ; Mike O'Connor Cc: gnso-irtpd@icann.org Subject: RE: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP I agree. From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:41 AM To: Dorrain, Kristine; James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor Cc: gnso-irtpd@icann.org Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP The issue of Trademark aside, I see many more similarities between the UDRP and the issue of legitimate ownership of a domain than between that issue and the TDRP. After all, both are disputes between parties about who should be the legitimate owner of a domain name. So while we may not want to open the UDRP to new complaints, we may want to look at creating a UDRP2 that is designed for exactly these issues. In both cases the registrar is asked to do certain things in preparation for the dispute and as its result, in both parts the question of the ultimate ownership of a domain name is decided by an independant panel. Volker Just for the record, I think adding a Registrants option to the UDRP would be just as mucked up as adding it here. In my humble opinion this warrants an entirely new policy or none at all. We don’t need to reinvent the Rules….UDRPs Rules are great. Just create the Policy itself, which is entirely TM focused and would be a beast to open up to non-TM holders. J Kristine From: owner-gnso-irtpd@icann.org [mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:09 AM To: James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor Cc: gnso-irtpd@icann.org Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP Hi James, excellent points there. I think the case with your example is that this is not actually a case where a registrar is a party to the dispute. Maybe it is a star witness required to provide the information only it can provide, but not a party. Those roles are better left to prior and current registrant. This however begs the question if ICANN should implement another process for registrants to solve their disputes, or if this may not be better relegated to a future re-design of the UDRP? We could for example make a recommendation that the UDRP be expanded to cover also domain ownership issues in any future revision of that policy. Best, Volker Good thoughts everyone. I think perhaps we should try to capture the various scenarios in the “Reasons for Denial” area, where a registrar can legitimately deny a registrant’s request to initiate a TDRP. For example: if the Registrant believes that the identity of the registrant is in question, or that they cannot substantiate that they were ever the legitimate registrant (or Transfer Contact) for the name pre-transfer. If its a scenario in which the registrar has violated the IRTP, (or even the shiny new TDRP we’re developing), then that is a matter for Compliance and the registrar's accreditation could be at-risk. But we should avoid any process where a registrar is compelled to initiate a TDRP that they believe is without merit, -and- be forced to pay for the proceedings. Thanks— J. From: Mike O'Connor <mike@haven2.com> Date: Tuesday, December 3, 2013 at 10:09 To: Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> Cc: "gnso-irtpd@icann.org" <gnso-irtpd@icann.org> Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP hi Volker, i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant to transfer out) or is presumptively denying the registrant due process in a dispute between registrars. this was recognized as an oversight in the policy back in the misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was launched. i don't care how this happens. registrars are probably in the best position to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to leave that discussion up to them. i like James' "put pressure on Registrars to comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler one but i can live with anything that fixes that problem. what i'm not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in their current situation where these decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide courts. On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> wrote: Hi Mike, you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an access in the first place. If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another story, but that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to charge for this service (to cover the work needed to handle the process). Volker i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's not the intent. the intent is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their registrar. the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high. On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> wrote: I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted parties. If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke the current process. What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes sense. I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc... Volker Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue · In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve matters between themselves In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed. PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann- Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 166386 St. IngbertTel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander SiffrinHandelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann- legal department - Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 166386 St. IngbertTel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander SiffrinRegistration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann- Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 166386 St. IngbertTel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander SiffrinHandelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann- legal department - Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 166386 St. IngbertTel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander SiffrinRegistration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann- Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 166386 St. IngbertTel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander SiffrinHandelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann- legal department - Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 166386 St. IngbertTel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander SiffrinRegistration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann- Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 166386 St. IngbertTel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander SiffrinHandelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann- legal department - Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 166386 St. IngbertTel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander SiffrinRegistration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. 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Well said Kevin Holly On 04/12/2013, at 4:57 AM, Kevin Erdman wrote:
I disagree. The UDRP is designed to correct misbehavior of a valid domain name owner relating to that owner’s use of a domain name, namely that the use of a domain infringes the rights of a trademark owner. The basis of the complaint is not that the domain name owner did not validly register the domain, but rather that the use of the domain is a trademark violation. The facts and circumstances of the ownership of trademark rights and the trademark infringement are outside of the knowledge of the registrars and registries. The UDRP procedures are designed to get the facts in front of the dispute resolution panel to provide the trademark owner with a remedy to trademark infringement that may be difficult or impossible to obtain judicially.
The TDRP is about correcting a bad domain transfer, and the circumstances of the transfer are mostly known to the registrars and registries, but there might be some oversight that a registrar or a registrant would want corrected. I think we should focus on where the TDRP leaves a registrant or a registrar without a remedy, and only provide more procedures for scenarios where a remedy is not currently available. ____________________________ Kevin R Erdman Reichel IP LLP 212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280 Indianapolis, IN 46202 voice 317.677.0689 fax 317.454.1349 email kevin@reichelip.com skype kevimundo web www.reichelip.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Dorrain, Kristine Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 12:43 PM To: 'Volker Greimann' ; James M. Bladel ; Mike O'Connor Cc: gnso-irtpd@icann.org Subject: RE: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
I agree.
From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:41 AM To: Dorrain, Kristine; James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor Cc: gnso-irtpd@icann.org Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
The issue of Trademark aside, I see many more similarities between the UDRP and the issue of legitimate ownership of a domain than between that issue and the TDRP. After all, both are disputes between parties about who should be the legitimate owner of a domain name.
So while we may not want to open the UDRP to new complaints, we may want to look at creating a UDRP2 that is designed for exactly these issues.
In both cases the registrar is asked to do certain things in preparation for the dispute and as its result, in both parts the question of the ultimate ownership of a domain name is decided by an independant panel.
Volker Just for the record, I think adding a Registrants option to the UDRP would be just as mucked up as adding it here. In my humble opinion this warrants an entirely new policy or none at all. We don’t need to reinvent the Rules….UDRPs Rules are great. Just create the Policy itself, which is entirely TM focused and would be a beast to open up to non-TM holders. J
Kristine
From: owner-gnso-irtpd@icann.org [mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:09 AM To: James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor Cc: gnso-irtpd@icann.org Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
Hi James,
excellent points there. I think the case with your example is that this is not actually a case where a registrar is a party to the dispute. Maybe it is a star witness required to provide the information only it can provide, but not a party. Those roles are better left to prior and current registrant.
This however begs the question if ICANN should implement another process for registrants to solve their disputes, or if this may not be better relegated to a future re-design of the UDRP? We could for example make a recommendation that the UDRP be expanded to cover also domain ownership issues in any future revision of that policy.
Best,
Volker
Good thoughts everyone. I think perhaps we should try to capture the various scenarios in the “Reasons for Denial” area, where a registrar can legitimately deny a registrant’s request to initiate a TDRP.
For example: if the Registrant believes that the identity of the registrant is in question, or that they cannot substantiate that they were ever the legitimate registrant (or Transfer Contact) for the name pre-transfer. If its a scenario in which the registrar has violated the IRTP, (or even the shiny new TDRP we’re developing), then that is a matter for Compliance and the registrar's accreditation could be at-risk. But we should avoid any process where a registrar is compelled to initiate a TDRP that they believe is without merit, -and- be forced to pay for the proceedings.
Thanks—
J.
From: Mike O'Connor <mike@haven2.com> Date: Tuesday, December 3, 2013 at 10:09 To: Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> Cc: "gnso-irtpd@icann.org" <gnso-irtpd@icann.org> Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
hi Volker,
i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant to transfer out) or is presumptively denying the registrant due process in a dispute between registrars. this was recognized as an oversight in the policy back in the misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was launched.
i don't care how this happens. registrars are probably in the best position to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to leave that discussion up to them. i like James' "put pressure on Registrars to comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler one but i can live with anything that fixes that problem. what i'm not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in their current situation where these decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide courts.
On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> wrote:
Hi Mike,
you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an access in the first place.
If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another story, but that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to charge for this service (to cover the work needed to handle the process).
Volker
i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's not the intent. the intent is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their registrar. the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high.
On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> wrote:
I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted parties.
If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke the current process.
What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes sense.
I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc...
Volker
Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue
· In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve matters between themselves
In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance
Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings
If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal
If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed.
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Hi Kevin and Holly, one aspect we noted previously was that the issues at hand look more like ownership issues than transfer issues, as the exact same problems for the registrant may exist when no transfer has taken place. Therefore a process that focusses on unauthorized ownership changes rather than transfers may be better to deal with the the actual problem. And the issue of who should own a domain is more commonly dealt with under the UDRP (albeit under different conditions) than the TDRP, which does not deal with such issues at all, or only as a result from process violation. Volker
Well said Kevin
Holly On 04/12/2013, at 4:57 AM, Kevin Erdman wrote:
I disagree. The UDRP is designed to correct misbehavior of a valid domain name owner relating to that owner’s use of a domain name, namely that the use of a domain infringes the rights of a trademark owner. The basis of the complaint is not that the domain name owner did not validly register the domain, but rather that the use of the domain is a trademark violation. The facts and circumstances of the ownership of trademark rights and the trademark infringement are outside of the knowledge of the registrars and registries. The UDRP procedures are designed to get the facts in front of the dispute resolution panel to provide the trademark owner with a remedy to trademark infringement that may be difficult or impossible to obtain judicially. The TDRP is about correcting a bad domain transfer, and the circumstances of the transfer are mostly known to the registrars and registries, but there might be some oversight that a registrar or a registrant would want corrected. I think we should focus on where the TDRP leaves a registrant or a registrar without a remedy, and only provide more procedures for scenarios where a remedy is not currently available. ____________________________ Kevin R Erdman Reichel IP LLP 212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280 Indianapolis, IN 46202 voice 317.677.0689 fax 317.454.1349 emailkevin@reichelip.com <mailto:kevin@reichelip.com> skype kevimundo webwww.reichelip.com <http://www.reichelip.com> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- *From:*Dorrain, Kristine <mailto:kdorrain@adrforum.com> *Sent:*Tuesday, December 03, 2013 12:43 PM *To:*'Volker Greimann' <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>;James M. Bladel <mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com>;Mike O'Connor <mailto:mike@haven2.com> *Cc:*gnso-irtpd@icann.org <mailto:gnso-irtpd@icann.org> *Subject:*RE: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP I agree. *From:*Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] *Sent:*Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:41 AM *To:*Dorrain, Kristine; James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor *Cc:*gnso-irtpd@icann.org <mailto:gnso-irtpd@icann.org> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP The issue of Trademark aside, I see many more similarities between the UDRP and the issue of legitimate ownership of a domain than between that issue and the TDRP. After all, both are disputes between parties about who should be the legitimate owner of a domain name.
So while we may not want to open the UDRP to new complaints, we may want to look at creating a UDRP2 that is designed for exactly these issues.
In both cases the registrar is asked to do certain things in preparation for the dispute and as its result, in both parts the question of the ultimate ownership of a domain name is decided by an independant panel.
Volker
Just for the record, I think adding a Registrants option to the UDRP would be just as mucked up as adding it here. In my humble opinion this warrants an entirely new policy or none at all. We don’t need to reinvent the Rules….UDRPs Rules are great. Just create the Policy itself, which is entirely TM focused and would be a beast to open up to non-TM holders. J Kristine *From:*owner-gnso-irtpd@icann.org <mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd@icann.org>[mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd@icann.org]*On Behalf Of*Volker Greimann *Sent:*Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:09 AM *To:*James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor *Cc:*gnso-irtpd@icann.org <mailto:gnso-irtpd@icann.org> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
Hi James,
excellent points there. I think the case with your example is that this is not actually a case where a registrar is a party to the dispute. Maybe it is a star witness required to provide the information only it can provide, but not a party. Those roles are better left to prior and current registrant.
This however begs the question if ICANN should implement another process for registrants to solve their disputes, or if this may not be better relegated to a future re-design of the UDRP? We could for example make a recommendation that the UDRP be expanded to cover also domain ownership issues in any future revision of that policy.
Best,
Volker
Good thoughts everyone. I think perhaps we should try to capture the various scenarios in the “Reasons for Denial” area, where a registrar can legitimately deny a registrant’s request to initiate a TDRP. For example: if the Registrant believes that the identity of the registrant is in question, or that they cannot substantiate that they were ever the legitimate registrant (or Transfer Contact) for the name pre-transfer. If its a scenario in which the registrar has violated the IRTP, (or even the shiny new TDRP we’re developing), then that is a matter for Compliance and the registrar's accreditation could be at-risk. But we should avoid any process where a registrar is compelled to initiate a TDRP that they believe is without merit, -and- be forced to pay for the proceedings. Thanks— J. *From:*Mike O'Connor <mike@haven2.com <mailto:mike@haven2.com>> *Date:*Tuesday, December 3, 2013 at 10:09 *To:*Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> *Cc:*"gnso-irtpd@icann.org <mailto:gnso-irtpd@icann.org>" <gnso-irtpd@icann.org <mailto:gnso-irtpd@icann.org>> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP hi Volker, i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant to transfer out) or is presumptively denying the registrant due process in a dispute between registrars. this was recognized as an oversight in the policy back in the misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was launched. i don't care how this happens. registrars are probably in the best position to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to leave that discussion up to them. i like James' "put pressure on Registrars to comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler one but i can live with anything that fixes that problem. what i'm not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in their current situation where these decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide courts. On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> wrote:
Hi Mike,
you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an access in the first place.
If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another story, but that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to charge for this service (to cover the work needed to handle the process).
Volker
i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's not the intent. the intent is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their registrar. the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high. On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> wrote:
I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted parties.
If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke the current process.
What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes sense.
I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc...
Volker
Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue
·In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve matters between themselves
In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance
Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings
If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal
If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed.
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-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
Hi Volker, I agree that ownership issues are a key to this discussion. However, when the ownership issue only relates to a domain at a single registrar, traditional contract principles apply and make those situations a standard contractual dispute handled with regard to ICANN contracts and registrant-registrar contracts. The problem falls outside of this context when the domain is also transferred, so that multiple parties may be involved in resolving the ownership issue and that is the problem we are discussing—I believe that handling unauthorized ownership changes within a registrar is not part of our Charter. The UDRP explicitly does not deal with who should own a domain, rather one possible resolution of the UDRP procedure is the transfer of a domain name. The issues that a dispute resolution panel has to deal with is the the activities of the domain owner, the trademark rights of the complaint filer, and the question of whether the registration and/or use of the domain is in bad faith in light of the trademark rights. Ownership transfer is a possible form of relief, but not an issue that the dispute resolution panel evaluates. From the perspective of a registry, the UDRP involves some input and the output is who gets to own the domain. However, from the perspective of registrars and registrants, the UDRP is all about the nature and extent of trademark rights and the domain name in question. IMO, the only similarity between resolving ownership issues and the UDRP is the last step, that a form of relief may be a forced transfer of a domain. Otherwise, the UDRP does not deal with the ownership issues of which we are concerned. ____________________________ Kevin R Erdman Reichel IP LLP 212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280 Indianapolis, IN 46202 voice 317.677.0689 fax 317.454.1349 email kevin@reichelip.com skype kevimundo web www.reichelip.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Volker Greimann Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 4:32 AM To: Holly Raiche ; Kevin Erdman Cc: Dorrain, Kristine ; James M. Bladel ; Mike O'Connor ; gnso-irtpd@icann.org Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP Hi Kevin and Holly, one aspect we noted previously was that the issues at hand look more like ownership issues than transfer issues, as the exact same problems for the registrant may exist when no transfer has taken place. Therefore a process that focusses on unauthorized ownership changes rather than transfers may be better to deal with the the actual problem. And the issue of who should own a domain is more commonly dealt with under the UDRP (albeit under different conditions) than the TDRP, which does not deal with such issues at all, or only as a result from process violation. Volker Well said Kevin Holly On 04/12/2013, at 4:57 AM, Kevin Erdman wrote: I disagree. The UDRP is designed to correct misbehavior of a valid domain name owner relating to that owner’s use of a domain name, namely that the use of a domain infringes the rights of a trademark owner. The basis of the complaint is not that the domain name owner did not validly register the domain, but rather that the use of the domain is a trademark violation. The facts and circumstances of the ownership of trademark rights and the trademark infringement are outside of the knowledge of the registrars and registries. The UDRP procedures are designed to get the facts in front of the dispute resolution panel to provide the trademark owner with a remedy to trademark infringement that may be difficult or impossible to obtain judicially. The TDRP is about correcting a bad domain transfer, and the circumstances of the transfer are mostly known to the registrars and registries, but there might be some oversight that a registrar or a registrant would want corrected. I think we should focus on where the TDRP leaves a registrant or a registrar without a remedy, and only provide more procedures for scenarios where a remedy is not currently available. ____________________________ Kevin R Erdman Reichel IP LLP 212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280 Indianapolis, IN 46202 voice 317.677.0689 fax 317.454.1349 email kevin@reichelip.com skype kevimundo web www.reichelip.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dorrain, Kristine Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 12:43 PM To: 'Volker Greimann' ; James M. Bladel ; Mike O'Connor Cc: gnso-irtpd@icann.org Subject: RE: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP I agree. From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:41 AM To: Dorrain, Kristine; James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor Cc: gnso-irtpd@icann.org Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP The issue of Trademark aside, I see many more similarities between the UDRP and the issue of legitimate ownership of a domain than between that issue and the TDRP. After all, both are disputes between parties about who should be the legitimate owner of a domain name. So while we may not want to open the UDRP to new complaints, we may want to look at creating a UDRP2 that is designed for exactly these issues. In both cases the registrar is asked to do certain things in preparation for the dispute and as its result, in both parts the question of the ultimate ownership of a domain name is decided by an independant panel. Volker Just for the record, I think adding a Registrants option to the UDRP would be just as mucked up as adding it here. In my humble opinion this warrants an entirely new policy or none at all. We don’t need to reinvent the Rules….UDRPs Rules are great. Just create the Policy itself, which is entirely TM focused and would be a beast to open up to non-TM holders. J Kristine From: owner-gnso-irtpd@icann.org [mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:09 AM To: James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor Cc: gnso-irtpd@icann.org Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP Hi James, excellent points there. I think the case with your example is that this is not actually a case where a registrar is a party to the dispute. Maybe it is a star witness required to provide the information only it can provide, but not a party. Those roles are better left to prior and current registrant. This however begs the question if ICANN should implement another process for registrants to solve their disputes, or if this may not be better relegated to a future re-design of the UDRP? We could for example make a recommendation that the UDRP be expanded to cover also domain ownership issues in any future revision of that policy. Best, Volker Good thoughts everyone. I think perhaps we should try to capture the various scenarios in the “Reasons for Denial” area, where a registrar can legitimately deny a registrant’s request to initiate a TDRP. For example: if the Registrant believes that the identity of the registrant is in question, or that they cannot substantiate that they were ever the legitimate registrant (or Transfer Contact) for the name pre-transfer. If its a scenario in which the registrar has violated the IRTP, (or even the shiny new TDRP we’re developing), then that is a matter for Compliance and the registrar's accreditation could be at-risk. But we should avoid any process where a registrar is compelled to initiate a TDRP that they believe is without merit, -and- be forced to pay for the proceedings. Thanks— J. From: Mike O'Connor <mike@haven2.com> Date: Tuesday, December 3, 2013 at 10:09 To: Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> Cc: "gnso-irtpd@icann.org" <gnso-irtpd@icann.org> Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP hi Volker, i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant to transfer out) or is presumptively denying the registrant due process in a dispute between registrars. this was recognized as an oversight in the policy back in the misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was launched. i don't care how this happens. registrars are probably in the best position to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to leave that discussion up to them. i like James' "put pressure on Registrars to comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler one but i can live with anything that fixes that problem. what i'm not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in their current situation where these decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide courts. On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> wrote: Hi Mike, you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an access in the first place. If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another story, but that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to charge for this service (to cover the work needed to handle the process). Volker i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's not the intent. the intent is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their registrar. the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high. On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> wrote: I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted parties. If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke the current process. What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes sense. I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc... Volker Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue · In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve matters between themselves In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed. PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann- Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 166386 St. IngbertTel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander SiffrinHandelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann- legal department - Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 166386 St. IngbertTel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander SiffrinRegistration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann- Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 166386 St. IngbertTel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander SiffrinHandelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann- legal department - Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 166386 St. IngbertTel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander SiffrinRegistration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann- Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 166386 St. IngbertTel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander SiffrinHandelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann- legal department - Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 166386 St. IngbertTel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander SiffrinRegistration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. 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Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann- legal department - Key-Systems GmbHIm Oberen Werk 166386 St. IngbertTel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander SiffrinRegistration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUPwww.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
Hi Kevin, I think you misunderstood me. By UDRP2 I do not mean the same process, but a new process modeled on the UDRP precedures. Of course the questions that would have to be answered by the panels would be different from those asked in the current UDRP. Basically: 1) Was the complainant the previous owner? 2) Can the previous owner show that the transfer/change of ownership occurred illegally? 3) Can the respondent demonstrate evidence to the contrary? It remains a dispute between two parties: The previous owner and the current owner. No need to drag anyone else in there as a party. Volker
Hi Volker, I agree that ownership issues are a key to this discussion. However, when the ownership issue only relates to a domain at a single registrar, traditional contract principles apply and make those situations a standard contractual dispute handled with regard to ICANN contracts and registrant-registrar contracts. The problem falls outside of this context when the domain is also transferred, so that multiple parties may be involved in resolving the ownership issue and that is the problem we are discussing—I believe that handling unauthorized ownership changes within a registrar is not part of our Charter. The UDRP explicitly does not deal with who should own a domain, rather one possible resolution of the UDRP procedure is the transfer of a domain name. The issues that a dispute resolution panel has to deal with is the the activities of the domain owner, the trademark rights of the complaint filer, and the question of whether the registration and/or use of the domain is in bad faith in light of the trademark rights. Ownership transfer is a possible form of relief, but not an issue that the dispute resolution panel evaluates. From the perspective of a registry, the UDRP involves some input and the output is who gets to own the domain. However, from the perspective of registrars and registrants, the UDRP is all about the nature and extent of trademark rights and the domain name in question. IMO, the only similarity between resolving ownership issues and the UDRP is the last step, that a form of relief may be a forced transfer of a domain. Otherwise, the UDRP does not deal with the ownership issues of which we are concerned. ____________________________ Kevin R Erdman Reichel IP LLP 212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280 Indianapolis, IN 46202 voice 317.677.0689 fax 317.454.1349 email kevin@reichelip.com skype kevimundo web www.reichelip.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- *From:* Volker Greimann <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 04, 2013 4:32 AM *To:* Holly Raiche <mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net> ; Kevin Erdman <mailto:krerdman@live.com> *Cc:* Dorrain, Kristine <mailto:kdorrain@adrforum.com> ; James M. Bladel <mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com> ; Mike O'Connor <mailto:mike@haven2.com> ; gnso-irtpd@icann.org <mailto:gnso-irtpd@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP Hi Kevin and Holly,
one aspect we noted previously was that the issues at hand look more like ownership issues than transfer issues, as the exact same problems for the registrant may exist when no transfer has taken place. Therefore a process that focusses on unauthorized ownership changes rather than transfers may be better to deal with the the actual problem.
And the issue of who should own a domain is more commonly dealt with under the UDRP (albeit under different conditions) than the TDRP, which does not deal with such issues at all, or only as a result from process violation.
Volker
Well said Kevin Holly On 04/12/2013, at 4:57 AM, Kevin Erdman wrote:
I disagree. The UDRP is designed to correct misbehavior of a valid domain name owner relating to that owner’s use of a domain name, namely that the use of a domain infringes the rights of a trademark owner. The basis of the complaint is not that the domain name owner did not validly register the domain, but rather that the use of the domain is a trademark violation. The facts and circumstances of the ownership of trademark rights and the trademark infringement are outside of the knowledge of the registrars and registries. The UDRP procedures are designed to get the facts in front of the dispute resolution panel to provide the trademark owner with a remedy to trademark infringement that may be difficult or impossible to obtain judicially. The TDRP is about correcting a bad domain transfer, and the circumstances of the transfer are mostly known to the registrars and registries, but there might be some oversight that a registrar or a registrant would want corrected. I think we should focus on where the TDRP leaves a registrant or a registrar without a remedy, and only provide more procedures for scenarios where a remedy is not currently available. ____________________________ Kevin R Erdman Reichel IP LLP 212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280 Indianapolis, IN 46202 voice 317.677.0689 fax 317.454.1349 emailkevin@reichelip.com <mailto:kevin@reichelip.com> skype kevimundo webwww.reichelip.com <http://www.reichelip.com> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- *From:*Dorrain, Kristine <mailto:kdorrain@adrforum.com> *Sent:*Tuesday, December 03, 2013 12:43 PM *To:*'Volker Greimann' <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>;James M. Bladel <mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com>;Mike O'Connor <mailto:mike@haven2.com> *Cc:*gnso-irtpd@icann.org <mailto:gnso-irtpd@icann.org> *Subject:*RE: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP I agree. *From:*Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] *Sent:*Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:41 AM *To:*Dorrain, Kristine; James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor *Cc:*gnso-irtpd@icann.org <mailto:gnso-irtpd@icann.org> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP The issue of Trademark aside, I see many more similarities between the UDRP and the issue of legitimate ownership of a domain than between that issue and the TDRP. After all, both are disputes between parties about who should be the legitimate owner of a domain name.
So while we may not want to open the UDRP to new complaints, we may want to look at creating a UDRP2 that is designed for exactly these issues.
In both cases the registrar is asked to do certain things in preparation for the dispute and as its result, in both parts the question of the ultimate ownership of a domain name is decided by an independant panel.
Volker
Just for the record, I think adding a Registrants option to the UDRP would be just as mucked up as adding it here. In my humble opinion this warrants an entirely new policy or none at all. We don’t need to reinvent the Rules….UDRPs Rules are great. Just create the Policy itself, which is entirely TM focused and would be a beast to open up to non-TM holders. J Kristine *From:*owner-gnso-irtpd@icann.org <mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd@icann.org>[mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd@icann.org]*On Behalf Of*Volker Greimann *Sent:*Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:09 AM *To:*James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor *Cc:*gnso-irtpd@icann.org <mailto:gnso-irtpd@icann.org> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
Hi James,
excellent points there. I think the case with your example is that this is not actually a case where a registrar is a party to the dispute. Maybe it is a star witness required to provide the information only it can provide, but not a party. Those roles are better left to prior and current registrant.
This however begs the question if ICANN should implement another process for registrants to solve their disputes, or if this may not be better relegated to a future re-design of the UDRP? We could for example make a recommendation that the UDRP be expanded to cover also domain ownership issues in any future revision of that policy.
Best,
Volker
Good thoughts everyone. I think perhaps we should try to capture the various scenarios in the “Reasons for Denial” area, where a registrar can legitimately deny a registrant’s request to initiate a TDRP. For example: if the Registrant believes that the identity of the registrant is in question, or that they cannot substantiate that they were ever the legitimate registrant (or Transfer Contact) for the name pre-transfer. If its a scenario in which the registrar has violated the IRTP, (or even the shiny new TDRP we’re developing), then that is a matter for Compliance and the registrar's accreditation could be at-risk. But we should avoid any process where a registrar is compelled to initiate a TDRP that they believe is without merit, -and- be forced to pay for the proceedings. Thanks— J. *From:*Mike O'Connor <mike@haven2.com <mailto:mike@haven2.com>> *Date:*Tuesday, December 3, 2013 at 10:09 *To:*Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> *Cc:*"gnso-irtpd@icann.org <mailto:gnso-irtpd@icann.org>" <gnso-irtpd@icann.org <mailto:gnso-irtpd@icann.org>> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP hi Volker, i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant to transfer out) or is presumptively denying the registrant due process in a dispute between registrars. this was recognized as an oversight in the policy back in the misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was launched. i don't care how this happens. registrars are probably in the best position to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to leave that discussion up to them. i like James' "put pressure on Registrars to comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler one but i can live with anything that fixes that problem. what i'm not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in their current situation where these decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide courts. On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> wrote:
Hi Mike,
you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an access in the first place.
If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another story, but that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to charge for this service (to cover the work needed to handle the process).
Volker
i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's not the intent. the intent is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their registrar. the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high. On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> wrote:
I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted parties.
If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke the current process.
What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes sense.
I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc...
Volker
Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue
·In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve matters between themselves
In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance
Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings
If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal
If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed.
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-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
Hi Volker, Thanks for your clarification, and I understand your position and I disagree with it, for two reasons. First reason is the initial impetus to go down this line was domain hijacking, registrar #1 gets a fraudulent authorization that ends up with a new party in control of a domain at a new registrar. In this case, both real parties and both registrars need to be involved because all have potential liability. Second reason is that UDRP2 for domain ownership disputes might be a good idea in general, but that idea is beyond the scope of our Working Group's charter. We might include this idea as a potential new area to develop, but just not here. _________________________________ Kevin R Erdman cell 317.289.3934 Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 4, 2013, at 8:09, "Volker Greimann" <vgreimann@key-systems.net> wrote:
Hi Kevin,
I think you misunderstood me. By UDRP2 I do not mean the same process, but a new process modeled on the UDRP precedures. Of course the questions that would have to be answered by the panels would be different from those asked in the current UDRP.
Basically: 1) Was the complainant the previous owner? 2) Can the previous owner show that the transfer/change of ownership occurred illegally? 3) Can the respondent demonstrate evidence to the contrary?
It remains a dispute between two parties: The previous owner and the current owner. No need to drag anyone else in there as a party.
Volker
Hi Volker,
I agree that ownership issues are a key to this discussion. However, when the ownership issue only relates to a domain at a single registrar, traditional contract principles apply and make those situations a standard contractual dispute handled with regard to ICANN contracts and registrant-registrar contracts. The problem falls outside of this context when the domain is also transferred, so that multiple parties may be involved in resolving the ownership issue and that is the problem we are discussing—I believe that handling unauthorized ownership changes within a registrar is not part of our Charter.
The UDRP explicitly does not deal with who should own a domain, rather one possible resolution of the UDRP procedure is the transfer of a domain name. The issues that a dispute resolution panel has to deal with is the the activities of the domain owner, the trademark rights of the complaint filer, and the question of whether the registration and/or use of the domain is in bad faith in light of the trademark rights. Ownership transfer is a possible form of relief, but not an issue that the dispute resolution panel evaluates. From the perspective of a registry, the UDRP involves some input and the output is who gets to own the domain. However, from the perspective of registrars and registrants, the UDRP is all about the nature and extent of trademark rights and the domain name in question.
IMO, the only similarity between resolving ownership issues and the UDRP is the last step, that a form of relief may be a forced transfer of a domain. Otherwise, the UDRP does not deal with the ownership issues of which we are concerned. ____________________________ Kevin R Erdman Reichel IP LLP 212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280 Indianapolis, IN 46202 voice 317.677.0689 fax 317.454.1349 email kevin@reichelip.com skype kevimundo web www.reichelip.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Volker Greimann Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 4:32 AM To: Holly Raiche ; Kevin Erdman Cc: Dorrain, Kristine ; James M. Bladel ; Mike O'Connor ; gnso-irtpd@icann.org Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
Hi Kevin and Holly,
one aspect we noted previously was that the issues at hand look more like ownership issues than transfer issues, as the exact same problems for the registrant may exist when no transfer has taken place. Therefore a process that focusses on unauthorized ownership changes rather than transfers may be better to deal with the the actual problem.
And the issue of who should own a domain is more commonly dealt with under the UDRP (albeit under different conditions) than the TDRP, which does not deal with such issues at all, or only as a result from process violation.
Volker
Well said Kevin
Holly
On 04/12/2013, at 4:57 AM, Kevin Erdman wrote:
I disagree. The UDRP is designed to correct misbehavior of a valid domain name owner relating to that owner’s use of a domain name, namely that the use of a domain infringes the rights of a trademark owner. The basis of the complaint is not that the domain name owner did not validly register the domain, but rather that the use of the domain is a trademark violation. The facts and circumstances of the ownership of trademark rights and the trademark infringement are outside of the knowledge of the registrars and registries. The UDRP procedures are designed to get the facts in front of the dispute resolution panel to provide the trademark owner with a remedy to trademark infringement that may be difficult or impossible to obtain judicially.
The TDRP is about correcting a bad domain transfer, and the circumstances of the transfer are mostly known to the registrars and registries, but there might be some oversight that a registrar or a registrant would want corrected. I think we should focus on where the TDRP leaves a registrant or a registrar without a remedy, and only provide more procedures for scenarios where a remedy is not currently available. ____________________________ Kevin R Erdman Reichel IP LLP 212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280 Indianapolis, IN 46202 voice 317.677.0689 fax 317.454.1349 email kevin@reichelip.com skype kevimundo web www.reichelip.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Dorrain, Kristine Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 12:43 PM To: 'Volker Greimann' ; James M. Bladel ; Mike O'Connor Cc: gnso-irtpd@icann.org Subject: RE: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
I agree.
From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:41 AM To: Dorrain, Kristine; James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor Cc: gnso-irtpd@icann.org Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
The issue of Trademark aside, I see many more similarities between the UDRP and the issue of legitimate ownership of a domain than between that issue and the TDRP. After all, both are disputes between parties about who should be the legitimate owner of a domain name.
So while we may not want to open the UDRP to new complaints, we may want to look at creating a UDRP2 that is designed for exactly these issues.
In both cases the registrar is asked to do certain things in preparation for the dispute and as its result, in both parts the question of the ultimate ownership of a domain name is decided by an independant panel.
Volker Just for the record, I think adding a Registrants option to the UDRP would be just as mucked up as adding it here. In my humble opinion this warrants an entirely new policy or none at all. We don’t need to reinvent the Rules….UDRPs Rules are great. Just create the Policy itself, which is entirely TM focused and would be a beast to open up to non-TM holders. J
Kristine
From: owner-gnso-irtpd@icann.org [mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:09 AM To: James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor Cc: gnso-irtpd@icann.org Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
Hi James,
excellent points there. I think the case with your example is that this is not actually a case where a registrar is a party to the dispute. Maybe it is a star witness required to provide the information only it can provide, but not a party. Those roles are better left to prior and current registrant.
This however begs the question if ICANN should implement another process for registrants to solve their disputes, or if this may not be better relegated to a future re-design of the UDRP? We could for example make a recommendation that the UDRP be expanded to cover also domain ownership issues in any future revision of that policy.
Best,
Volker
Good thoughts everyone. I think perhaps we should try to capture the various scenarios in the “Reasons for Denial” area, where a registrar can legitimately deny a registrant’s request to initiate a TDRP.
For example: if the Registrant believes that the identity of the registrant is in question, or that they cannot substantiate that they were ever the legitimate registrant (or Transfer Contact) for the name pre-transfer. If its a scenario in which the registrar has violated the IRTP, (or even the shiny new TDRP we’re developing), then that is a matter for Compliance and the registrar's accreditation could be at-risk. But we should avoid any process where a registrar is compelled to initiate a TDRP that they believe is without merit, -and- be forced to pay for the proceedings.
Thanks—
J.
From: Mike O'Connor <mike@haven2.com> Date: Tuesday, December 3, 2013 at 10:09 To: Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> Cc: "gnso-irtpd@icann.org" <gnso-irtpd@icann.org> Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
hi Volker,
i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant to transfer out) or is presumptively denying the registrant due process in a dispute between registrars. this was recognized as an oversight in the policy back in the misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was launched.
i don't care how this happens. registrars are probably in the best position to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to leave that discussion up to them. i like James' "put pressure on Registrars to comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler one but i can live with anything that fixes that problem. what i'm not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in their current situation where these decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide courts.
On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> wrote:
Hi Mike,
you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an access in the first place.
If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another story, but that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to charge for this service (to cover the work needed to handle the process).
Volker
i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's not the intent. the intent is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their registrar. the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high.
On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> wrote:
I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted parties.
If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke the current process.
What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes sense.
I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc...
Volker
Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue
· In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve matters between themselves
In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance
Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings
If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal
If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed.
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Am 04.12.2013 14:38, schrieb Kevin Erdman:
Hi Volker,
Thanks for your clarification, and I understand your position and I disagree with it, for two reasons.
First reason is the initial impetus to go down this line was domain hijacking, registrar #1 gets a fraudulent authorization that ends up with a new party in control of a domain at a new registrar. In this case, both real parties and both registrars need to be involved because all have potential liability. The current registrar is involved in the UDRP as well, and required to provide certain information, assist with the transfer and lock and unlock the domain name. Further, the fact of whether a transfer authorization in case of a hijacking is fraudulent or not does not even matter IIRC as the transfer process usually is not violated in such cases, but the TDRP exclusively deals with policy violations.
Second reason is that UDRP2 for domain ownership disputes might be a good idea in general, but that idea is beyond the scope of our Working Group's charter. We might include this idea as a potential new area to develop, but just not here. If it is outside our scope, we can still recommend this be looked at in a future UDRP reform or new PDP if we agree that such a process would be the better way to deal with the issue.
I disagree with the notion that we should force a registrar to charge into a dispute, at its own risk, for cases it sees as having no merit. There is a reason why the current TDRP is an elective method and I see no reason to change that. From the TDRP: (http://www.icann.org/en/help/dndr/tdrp) "In cases where this is unsuccessful and where a /registrar elects to file /a dispute, the following procedures apply. " and "/Transfer dispute resolution fees can be substantial/"
_________________________________ Kevin R Erdman
cell 317.289.3934
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 4, 2013, at 8:09, "Volker Greimann" <vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> wrote:
Hi Kevin,
I think you misunderstood me. By UDRP2 I do not mean the same process, but a new process modeled on the UDRP precedures. Of course the questions that would have to be answered by the panels would be different from those asked in the current UDRP.
Basically: 1) Was the complainant the previous owner? 2) Can the previous owner show that the transfer/change of ownership occurred illegally? 3) Can the respondent demonstrate evidence to the contrary?
It remains a dispute between two parties: The previous owner and the current owner. No need to drag anyone else in there as a party.
Volker
Hi Volker, I agree that ownership issues are a key to this discussion. However, when the ownership issue only relates to a domain at a single registrar, traditional contract principles apply and make those situations a standard contractual dispute handled with regard to ICANN contracts and registrant-registrar contracts. The problem falls outside of this context when the domain is also transferred, so that multiple parties may be involved in resolving the ownership issue and that is the problem we are discussing—I believe that handling unauthorized ownership changes within a registrar is not part of our Charter. The UDRP explicitly does not deal with who should own a domain, rather one possible resolution of the UDRP procedure is the transfer of a domain name. The issues that a dispute resolution panel has to deal with is the the activities of the domain owner, the trademark rights of the complaint filer, and the question of whether the registration and/or use of the domain is in bad faith in light of the trademark rights. Ownership transfer is a possible form of relief, but not an issue that the dispute resolution panel evaluates. From the perspective of a registry, the UDRP involves some input and the output is who gets to own the domain. However, from the perspective of registrars and registrants, the UDRP is all about the nature and extent of trademark rights and the domain name in question. IMO, the only similarity between resolving ownership issues and the UDRP is the last step, that a form of relief may be a forced transfer of a domain. Otherwise, the UDRP does not deal with the ownership issues of which we are concerned. ____________________________ Kevin R Erdman Reichel IP LLP 212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280 Indianapolis, IN 46202 voice 317.677.0689 fax 317.454.1349 email kevin@reichelip.com skype kevimundo web www.reichelip.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- *From:* Volker Greimann <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 04, 2013 4:32 AM *To:* Holly Raiche <mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net> ; Kevin Erdman <mailto:krerdman@live.com> *Cc:* Dorrain, Kristine <mailto:kdorrain@adrforum.com> ; James M. Bladel <mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com> ; Mike O'Connor <mailto:mike@haven2.com> ; gnso-irtpd@icann.org <mailto:gnso-irtpd@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP Hi Kevin and Holly,
one aspect we noted previously was that the issues at hand look more like ownership issues than transfer issues, as the exact same problems for the registrant may exist when no transfer has taken place. Therefore a process that focusses on unauthorized ownership changes rather than transfers may be better to deal with the the actual problem.
And the issue of who should own a domain is more commonly dealt with under the UDRP (albeit under different conditions) than the TDRP, which does not deal with such issues at all, or only as a result from process violation.
Volker
Well said Kevin Holly On 04/12/2013, at 4:57 AM, Kevin Erdman wrote:
I disagree. The UDRP is designed to correct misbehavior of a valid domain name owner relating to that owner’s use of a domain name, namely that the use of a domain infringes the rights of a trademark owner. The basis of the complaint is not that the domain name owner did not validly register the domain, but rather that the use of the domain is a trademark violation. The facts and circumstances of the ownership of trademark rights and the trademark infringement are outside of the knowledge of the registrars and registries. The UDRP procedures are designed to get the facts in front of the dispute resolution panel to provide the trademark owner with a remedy to trademark infringement that may be difficult or impossible to obtain judicially. The TDRP is about correcting a bad domain transfer, and the circumstances of the transfer are mostly known to the registrars and registries, but there might be some oversight that a registrar or a registrant would want corrected. I think we should focus on where the TDRP leaves a registrant or a registrar without a remedy, and only provide more procedures for scenarios where a remedy is not currently available. ____________________________ Kevin R Erdman Reichel IP LLP 212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280 Indianapolis, IN 46202 voice 317.677.0689 fax 317.454.1349 emailkevin@reichelip.com <mailto:kevin@reichelip.com> skype kevimundo webwww.reichelip.com <http://www.reichelip.com> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- *From:*Dorrain, Kristine <mailto:kdorrain@adrforum.com> *Sent:*Tuesday, December 03, 2013 12:43 PM *To:*'Volker Greimann' <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>;James M. Bladel <mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com>;Mike O'Connor <mailto:mike@haven2.com> *Cc:*gnso-irtpd@icann.org <mailto:gnso-irtpd@icann.org> *Subject:*RE: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP I agree. *From:*Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] *Sent:*Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:41 AM *To:*Dorrain, Kristine; James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor *Cc:*gnso-irtpd@icann.org <mailto:gnso-irtpd@icann.org> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP The issue of Trademark aside, I see many more similarities between the UDRP and the issue of legitimate ownership of a domain than between that issue and the TDRP. After all, both are disputes between parties about who should be the legitimate owner of a domain name.
So while we may not want to open the UDRP to new complaints, we may want to look at creating a UDRP2 that is designed for exactly these issues.
In both cases the registrar is asked to do certain things in preparation for the dispute and as its result, in both parts the question of the ultimate ownership of a domain name is decided by an independant panel.
Volker
Just for the record, I think adding a Registrants option to the UDRP would be just as mucked up as adding it here. In my humble opinion this warrants an entirely new policy or none at all. We don’t need to reinvent the Rules….UDRPs Rules are great. Just create the Policy itself, which is entirely TM focused and would be a beast to open up to non-TM holders. J Kristine *From:*owner-gnso-irtpd@icann.org <mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd@icann.org>[mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd@icann.org]*On Behalf Of*Volker Greimann *Sent:*Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:09 AM *To:*James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor *Cc:*gnso-irtpd@icann.org <mailto:gnso-irtpd@icann.org> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
Hi James,
excellent points there. I think the case with your example is that this is not actually a case where a registrar is a party to the dispute. Maybe it is a star witness required to provide the information only it can provide, but not a party. Those roles are better left to prior and current registrant.
This however begs the question if ICANN should implement another process for registrants to solve their disputes, or if this may not be better relegated to a future re-design of the UDRP? We could for example make a recommendation that the UDRP be expanded to cover also domain ownership issues in any future revision of that policy.
Best,
Volker
Good thoughts everyone. I think perhaps we should try to capture the various scenarios in the “Reasons for Denial” area, where a registrar can legitimately deny a registrant’s request to initiate a TDRP. For example: if the Registrant believes that the identity of the registrant is in question, or that they cannot substantiate that they were ever the legitimate registrant (or Transfer Contact) for the name pre-transfer. If its a scenario in which the registrar has violated the IRTP, (or even the shiny new TDRP we’re developing), then that is a matter for Compliance and the registrar's accreditation could be at-risk. But we should avoid any process where a registrar is compelled to initiate a TDRP that they believe is without merit, -and- be forced to pay for the proceedings. Thanks— J. *From:*Mike O'Connor <mike@haven2.com <mailto:mike@haven2.com>> *Date:*Tuesday, December 3, 2013 at 10:09 *To:*Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> *Cc:*"gnso-irtpd@icann.org <mailto:gnso-irtpd@icann.org>" <gnso-irtpd@icann.org <mailto:gnso-irtpd@icann.org>> *Subject:*Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP hi Volker, i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant to transfer out) or is presumptively denying the registrant due process in a dispute between registrars. this was recognized as an oversight in the policy back in the misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was launched. i don't care how this happens. registrars are probably in the best position to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to leave that discussion up to them. i like James' "put pressure on Registrars to comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler one but i can live with anything that fixes that problem. what i'm not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in their current situation where these decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide courts. On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> wrote:
Hi Mike,
you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an access in the first place.
If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another story, but that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to charge for this service (to cover the work needed to handle the process).
Volker
i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's not the intent. the intent is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their registrar. the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high. On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> wrote:
I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted parties.
If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke the current process.
What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes sense.
I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc...
Volker
Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue
·In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve matters between themselves
In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance
Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings
If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal
If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed.
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whew… good, but bewildering, discussion. so Volker, what do we do about the case where the registrar and the registrant disagree about the merits? where does the registrant go to get that disagreement resolved? m On Dec 4, 2013, at 8:03 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> wrote:
Am 04.12.2013 14:38, schrieb Kevin Erdman:
Hi Volker,
Thanks for your clarification, and I understand your position and I disagree with it, for two reasons.
First reason is the initial impetus to go down this line was domain hijacking, registrar #1 gets a fraudulent authorization that ends up with a new party in control of a domain at a new registrar. In this case, both real parties and both registrars need to be involved because all have potential liability. The current registrar is involved in the UDRP as well, and required to provide certain information, assist with the transfer and lock and unlock the domain name. Further, the fact of whether a transfer authorization in case of a hijacking is fraudulent or not does not even matter IIRC as the transfer process usually is not violated in such cases, but the TDRP exclusively deals with policy violations.
Second reason is that UDRP2 for domain ownership disputes might be a good idea in general, but that idea is beyond the scope of our Working Group's charter. We might include this idea as a potential new area to develop, but just not here. If it is outside our scope, we can still recommend this be looked at in a future UDRP reform or new PDP if we agree that such a process would be the better way to deal with the issue.
I disagree with the notion that we should force a registrar to charge into a dispute, at its own risk, for cases it sees as having no merit. There is a reason why the current TDRP is an elective method and I see no reason to change that.
From the TDRP: (http://www.icann.org/en/help/dndr/tdrp) "In cases where this is unsuccessful and where a registrar elects to file a dispute, the following procedures apply. " and "Transfer dispute resolution fees can be substantial"
_________________________________ Kevin R Erdman
cell 317.289.3934
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 4, 2013, at 8:09, "Volker Greimann" <vgreimann@key-systems.net> wrote:
Hi Kevin,
I think you misunderstood me. By UDRP2 I do not mean the same process, but a new process modeled on the UDRP precedures. Of course the questions that would have to be answered by the panels would be different from those asked in the current UDRP.
Basically: 1) Was the complainant the previous owner? 2) Can the previous owner show that the transfer/change of ownership occurred illegally? 3) Can the respondent demonstrate evidence to the contrary?
It remains a dispute between two parties: The previous owner and the current owner. No need to drag anyone else in there as a party.
Volker
Hi Volker,
I agree that ownership issues are a key to this discussion. However, when the ownership issue only relates to a domain at a single registrar, traditional contract principles apply and make those situations a standard contractual dispute handled with regard to ICANN contracts and registrant-registrar contracts. The problem falls outside of this context when the domain is also transferred, so that multiple parties may be involved in resolving the ownership issue and that is the problem we are discussing—I believe that handling unauthorized ownership changes within a registrar is not part of our Charter.
The UDRP explicitly does not deal with who should own a domain, rather one possible resolution of the UDRP procedure is the transfer of a domain name. The issues that a dispute resolution panel has to deal with is the the activities of the domain owner, the trademark rights of the complaint filer, and the question of whether the registration and/or use of the domain is in bad faith in light of the trademark rights. Ownership transfer is a possible form of relief, but not an issue that the dispute resolution panel evaluates. From the perspective of a registry, the UDRP involves some input and the output is who gets to own the domain. However, from the perspective of registrars and registrants, the UDRP is all about the nature and extent of trademark rights and the domain name in question.
IMO, the only similarity between resolving ownership issues and the UDRP is the last step, that a form of relief may be a forced transfer of a domain. Otherwise, the UDRP does not deal with the ownership issues of which we are concerned. ____________________________ Kevin R Erdman Reichel IP LLP 212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280 Indianapolis, IN 46202 voice 317.677.0689 fax 317.454.1349 email kevin@reichelip.com skype kevimundo web www.reichelip.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Volker Greimann Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 4:32 AM To: Holly Raiche ; Kevin Erdman Cc: Dorrain, Kristine ; James M. Bladel ; Mike O'Connor ; gnso-irtpd@icann.org Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
Hi Kevin and Holly,
one aspect we noted previously was that the issues at hand look more like ownership issues than transfer issues, as the exact same problems for the registrant may exist when no transfer has taken place. Therefore a process that focusses on unauthorized ownership changes rather than transfers may be better to deal with the the actual problem.
And the issue of who should own a domain is more commonly dealt with under the UDRP (albeit under different conditions) than the TDRP, which does not deal with such issues at all, or only as a result from process violation.
Volker
Well said Kevin
Holly On 04/12/2013, at 4:57 AM, Kevin Erdman wrote:
I disagree. The UDRP is designed to correct misbehavior of a valid domain name owner relating to that owner’s use of a domain name, namely that the use of a domain infringes the rights of a trademark owner. The basis of the complaint is not that the domain name owner did not validly register the domain, but rather that the use of the domain is a trademark violation. The facts and circumstances of the ownership of trademark rights and the trademark infringement are outside of the knowledge of the registrars and registries. The UDRP procedures are designed to get the facts in front of the dispute resolution panel to provide the trademark owner with a remedy to trademark infringement that may be difficult or impossible to obtain judicially.
The TDRP is about correcting a bad domain transfer, and the circumstances of the transfer are mostly known to the registrars and registries, but there might be some oversight that a registrar or a registrant would want corrected. I think we should focus on where the TDRP leaves a registrant or a registrar without a remedy, and only provide more procedures for scenarios where a remedy is not currently available. ____________________________ Kevin R Erdman Reichel IP LLP 212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280 Indianapolis, IN 46202 voice 317.677.0689 fax 317.454.1349 email kevin@reichelip.com skype kevimundo web www.reichelip.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Dorrain, Kristine Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 12:43 PM To: 'Volker Greimann' ; James M. Bladel ; Mike O'Connor Cc: gnso-irtpd@icann.org Subject: RE: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
I agree.
From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:41 AM To: Dorrain, Kristine; James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor Cc: gnso-irtpd@icann.org Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
The issue of Trademark aside, I see many more similarities between the UDRP and the issue of legitimate ownership of a domain than between that issue and the TDRP. After all, both are disputes between parties about who should be the legitimate owner of a domain name.
So while we may not want to open the UDRP to new complaints, we may want to look at creating a UDRP2 that is designed for exactly these issues.
In both cases the registrar is asked to do certain things in preparation for the dispute and as its result, in both parts the question of the ultimate ownership of a domain name is decided by an independant panel.
Volker Just for the record, I think adding a Registrants option to the UDRP would be just as mucked up as adding it here. In my humble opinion this warrants an entirely new policy or none at all. We don’t need to reinvent the Rules….UDRPs Rules are great. Just create the Policy itself, which is entirely TM focused and would be a beast to open up to non-TM holders. J
Kristine
From: owner-gnso-irtpd@icann.org [mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:09 AM To: James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor Cc: gnso-irtpd@icann.org Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
Hi James,
excellent points there. I think the case with your example is that this is not actually a case where a registrar is a party to the dispute. Maybe it is a star witness required to provide the information only it can provide, but not a party. Those roles are better left to prior and current registrant.
This however begs the question if ICANN should implement another process for registrants to solve their disputes, or if this may not be better relegated to a future re-design of the UDRP? We could for example make a recommendation that the UDRP be expanded to cover also domain ownership issues in any future revision of that policy.
Best,
Volker
Good thoughts everyone. I think perhaps we should try to capture the various scenarios in the “Reasons for Denial” area, where a registrar can legitimately deny a registrant’s request to initiate a TDRP.
For example: if the Registrant believes that the identity of the registrant is in question, or that they cannot substantiate that they were ever the legitimate registrant (or Transfer Contact) for the name pre-transfer. If its a scenario in which the registrar has violated the IRTP, (or even the shiny new TDRP we’re developing), then that is a matter for Compliance and the registrar's accreditation could be at-risk. But we should avoid any process where a registrar is compelled to initiate a TDRP that they believe is without merit, -and- be forced to pay for the proceedings.
Thanks—
J.
From: Mike O'Connor <mike@haven2.com> Date: Tuesday, December 3, 2013 at 10:09 To: Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> Cc: "gnso-irtpd@icann.org" <gnso-irtpd@icann.org> Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
hi Volker,
i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant to transfer out) or is presumptively denying the registrant due process in a dispute between registrars. this was recognized as an oversight in the policy back in the misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was launched.
i don't care how this happens. registrars are probably in the best position to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to leave that discussion up to them. i like James' "put pressure on Registrars to comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler one but i can live with anything that fixes that problem. what i'm not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in their current situation where these decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide courts.
On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> wrote:
Hi Mike,
you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an access in the first place.
If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another story, but that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to charge for this service (to cover the work needed to handle the process).
Volker
i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's not the intent. the intent is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their registrar. the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high.
On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> wrote:
I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted parties.
If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke the current process.
What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes sense.
I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc...
Volker
Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue
· In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve matters between themselves
In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance
Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings
If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal
If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed.
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Hi Mikey, if the registrant believes either the gaining or losing registrar have violated transfer poliy, compliance is the way to go. If the registrar is found to have been in breach of the RAA, he will be required to mend the breach, one option of which may be initiating the TDRP. Best, Volker
whew…
good, but bewildering, discussion.
so Volker, what do we do about the case where the registrar and the registrant disagree about the merits? where does the registrant go to get that disagreement resolved?
m
On Dec 4, 2013, at 8:03 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> wrote:
Am 04.12.2013 14:38, schrieb Kevin Erdman:
Hi Volker,
Thanks for your clarification, and I understand your position and I disagree with it, for two reasons.
First reason is the initial impetus to go down this line was domain hijacking, registrar #1 gets a fraudulent authorization that ends up with a new party in control of a domain at a new registrar. In this case, both real parties and both registrars need to be involved because all have potential liability. The current registrar is involved in the UDRP as well, and required to provide certain information, assist with the transfer and lock and unlock the domain name. Further, the fact of whether a transfer authorization in case of a hijacking is fraudulent or not does not even matter IIRC as the transfer process usually is not violated in such cases, but the TDRP exclusively deals with policy violations.
Second reason is that UDRP2 for domain ownership disputes might be a good idea in general, but that idea is beyond the scope of our Working Group's charter. We might include this idea as a potential new area to develop, but just not here. If it is outside our scope, we can still recommend this be looked at in a future UDRP reform or new PDP if we agree that such a process would be the better way to deal with the issue.
I disagree with the notion that we should force a registrar to charge into a dispute, at its own risk, for cases it sees as having no merit. There is a reason why the current TDRP is an elective method and I see no reason to change that.
From the TDRP: (http://www.icann.org/en/help/dndr/tdrp) "In cases where this is unsuccessful and where a /registrar elects to file /a dispute, the following procedures apply. " and "/Transfer dispute resolution fees can be substantial/"
_________________________________ Kevin R Erdman
cell 317.289.3934
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 4, 2013, at 8:09, "Volker Greimann" <vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> wrote:
Hi Kevin,
I think you misunderstood me. By UDRP2 I do not mean the same process, but a new process modeled on the UDRP precedures. Of course the questions that would have to be answered by the panels would be different from those asked in the current UDRP.
Basically: 1) Was the complainant the previous owner? 2) Can the previous owner show that the transfer/change of ownership occurred illegally? 3) Can the respondent demonstrate evidence to the contrary?
It remains a dispute between two parties: The previous owner and the current owner. No need to drag anyone else in there as a party.
Volker
Hi Volker, I agree that ownership issues are a key to this discussion. However, when the ownership issue only relates to a domain at a single registrar, traditional contract principles apply and make those situations a standard contractual dispute handled with regard to ICANN contracts and registrant-registrar contracts. The problem falls outside of this context when the domain is also transferred, so that multiple parties may be involved in resolving the ownership issue and that is the problem we are discussing—I believe that handling unauthorized ownership changes within a registrar is not part of our Charter. The UDRP explicitly does not deal with who should own a domain, rather one possible resolution of the UDRP procedure is the transfer of a domain name. The issues that a dispute resolution panel has to deal with is the the activities of the domain owner, the trademark rights of the complaint filer, and the question of whether the registration and/or use of the domain is in bad faith in light of the trademark rights. Ownership transfer is a possible form of relief, but not an issue that the dispute resolution panel evaluates. From the perspective of a registry, the UDRP involves some input and the output is who gets to own the domain. However, from the perspective of registrars and registrants, the UDRP is all about the nature and extent of trademark rights and the domain name in question. IMO, the only similarity between resolving ownership issues and the UDRP is the last step, that a form of relief may be a forced transfer of a domain. Otherwise, the UDRP does not deal with the ownership issues of which we are concerned. ____________________________ Kevin R Erdman Reichel IP LLP 212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280 Indianapolis, IN 46202 voice 317.677.0689 fax 317.454.1349 email kevin@reichelip.com skype kevimundo web www.reichelip.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- *From:* Volker Greimann <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 04, 2013 4:32 AM *To:* Holly Raiche <mailto:h.raiche@internode.on.net> ; Kevin Erdman <mailto:krerdman@live.com> *Cc:* Dorrain, Kristine <mailto:kdorrain@adrforum.com> ; James M. Bladel <mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com> ; Mike O'Connor <mailto:mike@haven2.com> ; gnso-irtpd@icann.org <mailto:gnso-irtpd@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP Hi Kevin and Holly,
one aspect we noted previously was that the issues at hand look more like ownership issues than transfer issues, as the exact same problems for the registrant may exist when no transfer has taken place. Therefore a process that focusses on unauthorized ownership changes rather than transfers may be better to deal with the the actual problem.
And the issue of who should own a domain is more commonly dealt with under the UDRP (albeit under different conditions) than the TDRP, which does not deal with such issues at all, or only as a result from process violation.
Volker
Well said Kevin Holly On 04/12/2013, at 4:57 AM, Kevin Erdman wrote:
> I disagree. The UDRP is designed to correct misbehavior of a > valid domain name owner relating to that owner’s use of a domain > name, namely that the use of a domain infringes the rights of a > trademark owner. The basis of the complaint is not that the > domain name owner did not validly register the domain, but > rather that the use of the domain is a trademark violation. The > facts and circumstances of the ownership of trademark rights and > the trademark infringement are outside of the knowledge of the > registrars and registries. The UDRP procedures are designed to > get the facts in front of the dispute resolution panel to > provide the trademark owner with a remedy to trademark > infringement that may be difficult or impossible to obtain > judicially. > The TDRP is about correcting a bad domain transfer, and the > circumstances of the transfer are mostly known to the registrars > and registries, but there might be some oversight that a > registrar or a registrant would want corrected. I think we > should focus on where the TDRP leaves a registrant or a > registrar without a remedy, and only provide more procedures for > scenarios where a remedy is not currently available. > ____________________________ > Kevin R Erdman > Reichel IP LLP > 212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280 > Indianapolis, IN 46202 > voice 317.677.0689 > fax 317.454.1349 > emailkevin@reichelip.com <mailto:kevin@reichelip.com> > skype kevimundo > webwww.reichelip.com <http://www.reichelip.com/> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > *From:*Dorrain, Kristine <mailto:kdorrain@adrforum.com> > *Sent:*Tuesday, December 03, 2013 12:43 PM > *To:*'Volker Greimann' <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>;James > M. Bladel <mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com>;Mike O'Connor > <mailto:mike@haven2.com> > *Cc:*gnso-irtpd@icann.org <mailto:gnso-irtpd@icann.org> > *Subject:*RE: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that > sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- > registrant role in TDRP > I agree. > *From:*Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] > *Sent:*Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:41 AM > *To:*Dorrain, Kristine; James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor > *Cc:*gnso-irtpd@icann.org <mailto:gnso-irtpd@icann.org> > *Subject:*Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that > sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- > registrant role in TDRP > The issue of Trademark aside, I see many more similarities > between the UDRP and the issue of legitimate ownership of a > domain than between that issue and the TDRP. After all, both are > disputes between parties about who should be the legitimate > owner of a domain name. > > So while we may not want to open the UDRP to new complaints, we > may want to look at creating a UDRP2 that is designed for > exactly these issues. > > In both cases the registrar is asked to do certain things in > preparation for the dispute and as its result, in both parts the > question of the ultimate ownership of a domain name is decided > by an independant panel. > > Volker > > Just for the record, I think adding a Registrants option to > the UDRP would be just as mucked up as adding it here. In > my humble opinion this warrants an entirely new policy or > none at all. We don’t need to reinvent the Rules….UDRPs > Rules are great. Just create the Policy itself, which is > entirely TM focused and would be a beast to open up to > non-TM holders. J > Kristine > *From:*owner-gnso-irtpd@icann.org > <mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd@icann.org>[mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd@icann.org]*On > Behalf Of*Volker Greimann > *Sent:*Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:09 AM > *To:*James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor > *Cc:*gnso-irtpd@icann.org <mailto:gnso-irtpd@icann.org> > *Subject:*Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that > sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- > registrant role in TDRP > > Hi James, > > excellent points there. I think the case with your example > is that this is not actually a case where a registrar is a > party to the dispute. Maybe it is a star witness required to > provide the information only it can provide, but not a > party. Those roles are better left to prior and current > registrant. > > This however begs the question if ICANN should implement > another process for registrants to solve their disputes, or > if this may not be better relegated to a future re-design of > the UDRP? We could for example make a recommendation that > the UDRP be expanded to cover also domain ownership issues > in any future revision of that policy. > > Best, > > Volker > > > Good thoughts everyone. I think perhaps we should try > to capture the various scenarios in the “Reasons for > Denial” area, where a registrar can legitimately deny a > registrant’s request to initiate a TDRP. > For example: if the Registrant believes that the > identity of the registrant is in question, or that they > cannot substantiate that they were ever the legitimate > registrant (or Transfer Contact) for the name > pre-transfer. If its a scenario in which the registrar > has violated the IRTP, (or even the shiny new TDRP we’re > developing), then that is a matter for Compliance and > the registrar's accreditation could be at-risk. But we > should avoid any process where a registrar is compelled > to initiate a TDRP that they believe is without merit, > -and- be forced to pay for the proceedings. > Thanks— > J. > *From:*Mike O'Connor <mike@haven2.com > <mailto:mike@haven2.com>> > *Date:*Tuesday, December 3, 2013 at 10:09 > *To:*Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net > <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> > *Cc:*"gnso-irtpd@icann.org > <mailto:gnso-irtpd@icann.org>" <gnso-irtpd@icann.org > <mailto:gnso-irtpd@icann.org>> > *Subject:*Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of > that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just > now -- registrant role in TDRP > hi Volker, > i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is > either in violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to > allow the registrant to transfer out) or is > presumptively denying the registrant due process in a > dispute between registrars. this was recognized as an > oversight in the policy back in the misty past when this > series of IRTP PDPs was launched. > i don't care how this happens. registrars are probably > in the best position to figure out the best way to get > this done and i'm happy to leave that discussion up to > them. i like James' "put pressure on Registrars to > comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler > one but i can live with anything that fixes that > problem. what i'm not keen on the idea of leaving > registrants in their current situation where these > decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no > recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide courts. > On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann > <vgreimann@key-systems.net > <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> wrote: > > > > Hi Mike, > > you are assuming that registrants should be > beneficiaries of the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a > registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking the > registrants access as they do not have such an access in > the first place. > > If you want to give the registrant a way to force a > registrar to initiate a proceeding against another > registrar, that is another story, but that way needs to > include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs > and a right of a registrar to charge for this service > (to cover the work needed to handle the process). > > Volker > > > i think the key distinction i want to draw is with > your sentence "give registrants access to" the > TDRP. that's not the intent. the intent is to > ensure that registrants are not blocked from that > process by their registrar. the hope here is to > provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where > registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP > is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for that > appeal pretty high. > On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann > <vgreimann@key-systems.net > <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> wrote: > > > > I still feel that giving registrants access to the > TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an > inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal > with process violations and will turn it into a > transfer dispute process between registrants, > dragging registrars and registries into a civil > conflict between two parties. This will result in > increased costs and work for contracted parties. > > If a registrar is violating transfer processes, > there will be sufficient incentive for affected > registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke > the current process. > > What we need to look at instead is if creating an > alternate process between registrant and former > registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name > makes sense. > > I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to > hear the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a > registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should > be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the > UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to > me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the > complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is > unreachable/etc... > > Volker > > Provide the ability for the registrant to > trigger the TDRP process in cases when they > disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue > > ·In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they > can't resolve matters between themselves > > In the case of disagreement between registrar > and registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, > provide a path for the registrant to take the > issue to Compliance > > Build minimum documentation requirements for > registrants into the policy as a filter to > prevent frivolous filings > > If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP > proceeds as normal, with fees paid by > registrars, as normal > > If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's > it -- it's off to court if the registrant wants > to proceed. > > PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, > WEB:www.haven2.com <http://www.haven2.com/>, > HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, > LinkedIn, etc.) > > > > > > -- > > Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. > > > > Mit freundlichen Grüßen, > > > > Volker A. 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Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. > > > > > > > > > PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, > WEB:www.haven2.com <http://www.haven2.com/>, HANDLE: > OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) > > > > > > -- > > Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. > > > > Mit freundlichen Grüßen, > > > > Volker A. Greimann > > - Rechtsabteilung - > > > > Key-Systems GmbH > > Im Oberen Werk 1 > > 66386 St. Ingbert > > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 > > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 > > Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> > > > > Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net/> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.rrpproxy.net/>www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.brandshelter.com/> > > > > Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: > > www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> > > > > Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin > > Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken > > Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 > > > > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP > > www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu/> > > > > Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > > > Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Volker A. Greimann > > - legal department - > > > > Key-Systems GmbH > > Im Oberen Werk 1 > > 66386 St. Ingbert > > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 > > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 > > Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> > > > > Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net/> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.rrpproxy.net/>www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.brandshelter.com/> > > > > Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: > > www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> > > > > CEO: Alexander Siffrin > > Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken > > V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 > > > > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP > > www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu/> > > > > This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. > > > > > > > > > PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, > WEB:www.haven2.com <http://www.haven2.com/>, HANDLE: > OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) > > > > > > -- > > Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. > > > > Mit freundlichen Grüßen, > > > > Volker A. Greimann > > - Rechtsabteilung - > > > > Key-Systems GmbH > > Im Oberen Werk 1 > > 66386 St. Ingbert > > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 > > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 > > Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> > > > > Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net/> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.rrpproxy.net/> > > www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.brandshelter.com/> > > > > Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: > > www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> > > www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> > > > > Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin > > Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken > > Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 > > > > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP > > www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu/> > > > > Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > > > Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Volker A. Greimann > > - legal department - > > > > Key-Systems GmbH > > Im Oberen Werk 1 > > 66386 St. Ingbert > > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 > > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 > > Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> > > > > Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net/> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.rrpproxy.net/> > > www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.brandshelter.com/> > > > > Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: > > www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> > > www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> > > > > CEO: Alexander Siffrin > > Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken > > V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 > > > > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP > > www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu/> > > > > This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. > > Mit freundlichen Grüßen, > > Volker A. Greimann > - Rechtsabteilung - > > Key-Systems GmbH > Im Oberen Werk 1 > 66386 St. Ingbert > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 > Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> > > Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net/> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.rrpproxy.net/> > www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.brandshelter.com/> > > Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: > www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> > www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> > > Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin > Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken > Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 > > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP > www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu/> > > Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. > > -------------------------------------------- > > Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. > > Best regards, > > Volker A. Greimann > - legal department - > > Key-Systems GmbH > Im Oberen Werk 1 > 66386 St. Ingbert > Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 > Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 > Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> > > Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net/> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.rrpproxy.net/> > www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.brandshelter.com/> > > Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: > www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> > www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> > > CEO: Alexander Siffrin > Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken > V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 > > Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP > www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu/> > > This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. > > >
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann - legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems
CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann - legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems
CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web:www.key-systems.net /www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com /www.BrandShelter.com
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu
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CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu
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PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com <http://www.haven2.com>, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.)
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
so can we say that in cases where the registrant and their registrar disagree about the merits of the case, they should go to Compliance for a determination? m On Dec 5, 2013, at 4:45 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> wrote:
Hi Mikey,
if the registrant believes either the gaining or losing registrar have violated transfer poliy, compliance is the way to go. If the registrar is found to have been in breach of the RAA, he will be required to mend the breach, one option of which may be initiating the TDRP.
Best,
Volker
whew…
good, but bewildering, discussion.
so Volker, what do we do about the case where the registrar and the registrant disagree about the merits? where does the registrant go to get that disagreement resolved?
m
On Dec 4, 2013, at 8:03 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> wrote:
Am 04.12.2013 14:38, schrieb Kevin Erdman:
Hi Volker,
Thanks for your clarification, and I understand your position and I disagree with it, for two reasons.
First reason is the initial impetus to go down this line was domain hijacking, registrar #1 gets a fraudulent authorization that ends up with a new party in control of a domain at a new registrar. In this case, both real parties and both registrars need to be involved because all have potential liability. The current registrar is involved in the UDRP as well, and required to provide certain information, assist with the transfer and lock and unlock the domain name. Further, the fact of whether a transfer authorization in case of a hijacking is fraudulent or not does not even matter IIRC as the transfer process usually is not violated in such cases, but the TDRP exclusively deals with policy violations.
Second reason is that UDRP2 for domain ownership disputes might be a good idea in general, but that idea is beyond the scope of our Working Group's charter. We might include this idea as a potential new area to develop, but just not here. If it is outside our scope, we can still recommend this be looked at in a future UDRP reform or new PDP if we agree that such a process would be the better way to deal with the issue.
I disagree with the notion that we should force a registrar to charge into a dispute, at its own risk, for cases it sees as having no merit. There is a reason why the current TDRP is an elective method and I see no reason to change that.
From the TDRP: (http://www.icann.org/en/help/dndr/tdrp) "In cases where this is unsuccessful and where a registrar elects to file a dispute, the following procedures apply. " and "Transfer dispute resolution fees can be substantial"
_________________________________ Kevin R Erdman
cell 317.289.3934
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 4, 2013, at 8:09, "Volker Greimann" <vgreimann@key-systems.net> wrote:
Hi Kevin,
I think you misunderstood me. By UDRP2 I do not mean the same process, but a new process modeled on the UDRP precedures. Of course the questions that would have to be answered by the panels would be different from those asked in the current UDRP.
Basically: 1) Was the complainant the previous owner? 2) Can the previous owner show that the transfer/change of ownership occurred illegally? 3) Can the respondent demonstrate evidence to the contrary?
It remains a dispute between two parties: The previous owner and the current owner. No need to drag anyone else in there as a party.
Volker
Hi Volker,
I agree that ownership issues are a key to this discussion. However, when the ownership issue only relates to a domain at a single registrar, traditional contract principles apply and make those situations a standard contractual dispute handled with regard to ICANN contracts and registrant-registrar contracts. The problem falls outside of this context when the domain is also transferred, so that multiple parties may be involved in resolving the ownership issue and that is the problem we are discussing—I believe that handling unauthorized ownership changes within a registrar is not part of our Charter.
The UDRP explicitly does not deal with who should own a domain, rather one possible resolution of the UDRP procedure is the transfer of a domain name. The issues that a dispute resolution panel has to deal with is the the activities of the domain owner, the trademark rights of the complaint filer, and the question of whether the registration and/or use of the domain is in bad faith in light of the trademark rights. Ownership transfer is a possible form of relief, but not an issue that the dispute resolution panel evaluates. From the perspective of a registry, the UDRP involves some input and the output is who gets to own the domain. However, from the perspective of registrars and registrants, the UDRP is all about the nature and extent of trademark rights and the domain name in question.
IMO, the only similarity between resolving ownership issues and the UDRP is the last step, that a form of relief may be a forced transfer of a domain. Otherwise, the UDRP does not deal with the ownership issues of which we are concerned. ____________________________ Kevin R Erdman Reichel IP LLP 212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280 Indianapolis, IN 46202 voice 317.677.0689 fax 317.454.1349 email kevin@reichelip.com skype kevimundo web www.reichelip.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Volker Greimann Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 4:32 AM To: Holly Raiche ; Kevin Erdman Cc: Dorrain, Kristine ; James M. Bladel ; Mike O'Connor ; gnso-irtpd@icann.org Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP
Hi Kevin and Holly,
one aspect we noted previously was that the issues at hand look more like ownership issues than transfer issues, as the exact same problems for the registrant may exist when no transfer has taken place. Therefore a process that focusses on unauthorized ownership changes rather than transfers may be better to deal with the the actual problem.
And the issue of who should own a domain is more commonly dealt with under the UDRP (albeit under different conditions) than the TDRP, which does not deal with such issues at all, or only as a result from process violation.
Volker
> Well said Kevin > > Holly > On 04/12/2013, at 4:57 AM, Kevin Erdman wrote: > >> I disagree. The UDRP is designed to correct misbehavior of a valid domain name owner relating to that owner’s use of a domain name, namely that the use of a domain infringes the rights of a trademark owner. The basis of the complaint is not that the domain name owner did not validly register the domain, but rather that the use of the domain is a trademark violation. The facts and circumstances of the ownership of trademark rights and the trademark infringement are outside of the knowledge of the registrars and registries. The UDRP procedures are designed to get the facts in front of the dispute resolution panel to provide the trademark owner with a remedy to trademark infringement that may be difficult or impossible to obtain judicially. >> >> The TDRP is about correcting a bad domain transfer, and the circumstances of the transfer are mostly known to the registrars and registries, but there might be some oversight that a registrar or a registrant would want corrected. I think we should focus on where the TDRP leaves a registrant or a registrar without a remedy, and only provide more procedures for scenarios where a remedy is not currently available. >> ____________________________ >> Kevin R Erdman >> Reichel IP LLP >> 212 West 10th Street, Suite D-280 >> Indianapolis, IN 46202 >> voice 317.677.0689 >> fax 317.454.1349 >> email kevin@reichelip.com >> skype kevimundo >> web www.reichelip.com >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> From: Dorrain, Kristine >> Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 12:43 PM >> To: 'Volker Greimann' ; James M. Bladel ; Mike O'Connor >> Cc: gnso-irtpd@icann.org >> Subject: RE: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP >> >> I agree. >> >> From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] >> Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:41 AM >> To: Dorrain, Kristine; James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor >> Cc: gnso-irtpd@icann.org >> Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP >> >> The issue of Trademark aside, I see many more similarities between the UDRP and the issue of legitimate ownership of a domain than between that issue and the TDRP. After all, both are disputes between parties about who should be the legitimate owner of a domain name. >> >> So while we may not want to open the UDRP to new complaints, we may want to look at creating a UDRP2 that is designed for exactly these issues. >> >> In both cases the registrar is asked to do certain things in preparation for the dispute and as its result, in both parts the question of the ultimate ownership of a domain name is decided by an independant panel. >> >> Volker >> Just for the record, I think adding a Registrants option to the UDRP would be just as mucked up as adding it here. In my humble opinion this warrants an entirely new policy or none at all. We don’t need to reinvent the Rules….UDRPs Rules are great. Just create the Policy itself, which is entirely TM focused and would be a beast to open up to non-TM holders. J >> >> Kristine >> >> From: owner-gnso-irtpd@icann.org [mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann >> Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:09 AM >> To: James M. Bladel; Mike O'Connor >> Cc: gnso-irtpd@icann.org >> Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP >> >> Hi James, >> >> excellent points there. I think the case with your example is that this is not actually a case where a registrar is a party to the dispute. Maybe it is a star witness required to provide the information only it can provide, but not a party. Those roles are better left to prior and current registrant. >> >> This however begs the question if ICANN should implement another process for registrants to solve their disputes, or if this may not be better relegated to a future re-design of the UDRP? We could for example make a recommendation that the UDRP be expanded to cover also domain ownership issues in any future revision of that policy. >> >> Best, >> >> Volker >> >> >> >> Good thoughts everyone. I think perhaps we should try to capture the various scenarios in the “Reasons for Denial” area, where a registrar can legitimately deny a registrant’s request to initiate a TDRP. >> >> For example: if the Registrant believes that the identity of the registrant is in question, or that they cannot substantiate that they were ever the legitimate registrant (or Transfer Contact) for the name pre-transfer. If its a scenario in which the registrar has violated the IRTP, (or even the shiny new TDRP we’re developing), then that is a matter for Compliance and the registrar's accreditation could be at-risk. But we should avoid any process where a registrar is compelled to initiate a TDRP that they believe is without merit, -and- be forced to pay for the proceedings. >> >> Thanks— >> >> J. >> >> >> >> From: Mike O'Connor <mike@haven2.com> >> Date: Tuesday, December 3, 2013 at 10:09 >> To: Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> >> Cc: "gnso-irtpd@icann.org" <gnso-irtpd@icann.org> >> Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] here's the little summary of that sequence of events i rattled off on the call just now -- registrant role in TDRP >> >> hi Volker, >> >> i'm trying to remedy the situation where a registrar is either in violation of the IRTP themselves (refusing to allow the registrant to transfer out) or is presumptively denying the registrant due process in a dispute between registrars. this was recognized as an oversight in the policy back in the misty past when this series of IRTP PDPs was launched. >> >> i don't care how this happens. registrars are probably in the best position to figure out the best way to get this done and i'm happy to leave that discussion up to them. i like James' "put pressure on Registrars to comply" approach since that seems like a lighter/simpler one but i can live with anything that fixes that problem. what i'm not keen on the idea of leaving registrants in their current situation where these decisions get made "for them" by registrars with no recourse for trapped registrants except worldwide courts. >> >> >> On Dec 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi Mike, >> >> you are assuming that registrants should be beneficiaries of the TDRP. They are not. Therefore a registrar not initiating a TDRP is not blocking the registrants access as they do not have such an access in the first place. >> >> If you want to give the registrant a way to force a registrar to initiate a proceeding against another registrar, that is another story, but that way needs to include an obligation of the registrant to pay the costs and a right of a registrar to charge for this service (to cover the work needed to handle the process). >> >> Volker >> >> >> >> i think the key distinction i want to draw is with your sentence "give registrants access to" the TDRP. that's not the intent. the intent is to ensure that registrants are not blocked from that process by their registrar. the hope here is to provide an appeal mechanism in those cases where registrar and registrant disagree on whether a TDRP is warranted. but i'm fine setting the bar for that appeal pretty high. >> >> >> On Dec 2, 2013, at 11:47 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> wrote: >> >> >> >> I still feel that giving registrants access to the TDRP process dilutes its purpose as an inter-registrar dispute process designed to deal with process violations and will turn it into a transfer dispute process between registrants, dragging registrars and registries into a civil conflict between two parties. This will result in increased costs and work for contracted parties. >> >> If a registrar is violating transfer processes, there will be sufficient incentive for affected registrars to call them out and if necessary invoke the current process. >> >> What we need to look at instead is if creating an alternate process between registrant and former registrant regarding the ownership of a domain name makes sense. >> >> I am also a big fan of the line "He who wants to hear the music should pay for the band!", i.e. if a registrant wants a process to be invoked, he should be prepared to pony up the fees, just as with the UDRP. Adding a "loser pays" clause makes sense to me, but in that case it will remain the risk of the complainant that the respondent cannot pay/is unreachable/etc... >> >> Volker >> >> Provide the ability for the registrant to trigger the TDRP process in cases when they disagree with their registrar over an IRTP issue >> >> · In general, registrars initiate TDRP when they can't resolve matters between themselves >> >> In the case of disagreement between registrar and registrant as to whether to initiate a TDRP, provide a path for the registrant to take the issue to Compliance >> >> Build minimum documentation requirements for registrants into the policy as a filter to prevent frivolous filings >> >> If Compliance agrees with registrant, TDRP proceeds as normal, with fees paid by registrars, as normal >> >> If Compliance disagrees with registrant, that's it -- it's off to court if the registrant wants to proceed. >> >> >> >> >> PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. >> >> Mit freundlichen Grüßen, >> >> Volker A. Greimann >> - Rechtsabteilung - >> >> Key-Systems GmbH >> Im Oberen Werk 1 >> 66386 St. Ingbert >> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >> Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net >> >> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >> >> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >> www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems >> >> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin >> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >> >> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >> www.keydrive.lu >> >> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >> >> -------------------------------------------- >> >> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Volker A. Greimann >> - legal department - >> >> Key-Systems GmbH >> Im Oberen Werk 1 >> 66386 St. Ingbert >> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >> Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net >> >> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >> >> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >> www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems >> >> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >> >> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >> www.keydrive.lu >> >> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >> >> >> >> >> >> PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. >> >> Mit freundlichen Grüßen, >> >> Volker A. Greimann >> - Rechtsabteilung - >> >> Key-Systems GmbH >> Im Oberen Werk 1 >> 66386 St. Ingbert >> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >> Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net >> >> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >> >> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >> www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems >> >> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin >> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >> >> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >> www.keydrive.lu >> >> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >> >> -------------------------------------------- >> >> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Volker A. Greimann >> - legal department - >> >> Key-Systems GmbH >> Im Oberen Werk 1 >> 66386 St. Ingbert >> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >> Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net >> >> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.netwww.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >> >> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >> www.facebook.com/KeySystemswww.twitter.com/key_systems >> >> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >> >> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >> www.keydrive.lu >> >> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >> >> >> >> >> >> PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.) >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. >> >> Mit freundlichen Grüßen, >> >> Volker A. Greimann >> - Rechtsabteilung - >> >> Key-Systems GmbH >> Im Oberen Werk 1 >> 66386 St. Ingbert >> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >> Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net >> >> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net >> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >> >> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >> www.twitter.com/key_systems >> >> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin >> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >> >> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >> www.keydrive.lu >> >> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >> >> -------------------------------------------- >> >> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Volker A. Greimann >> - legal department - >> >> Key-Systems GmbH >> Im Oberen Werk 1 >> 66386 St. Ingbert >> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >> Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net >> >> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net >> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >> >> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >> www.twitter.com/key_systems >> >> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >> >> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >> www.keydrive.lu >> >> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. >> >> Mit freundlichen Grüßen, >> >> Volker A. Greimann >> - Rechtsabteilung - >> >> Key-Systems GmbH >> Im Oberen Werk 1 >> 66386 St. Ingbert >> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >> Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net >> >> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net >> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >> >> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: >> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >> www.twitter.com/key_systems >> >> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin >> Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 >> >> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >> www.keydrive.lu >> >> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. >> >> -------------------------------------------- >> >> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Volker A. Greimann >> - legal department - >> >> Key-Systems GmbH >> Im Oberen Werk 1 >> 66386 St. Ingbert >> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 >> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 >> Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net >> >> Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net >> www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com >> >> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: >> www.facebook.com/KeySystems >> www.twitter.com/key_systems >> >> CEO: Alexander Siffrin >> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken >> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 >> >> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP >> www.keydrive.lu >> >> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. >> >> >> > >
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann - legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems
CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann - legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems
CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann - legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems
CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.)
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann - legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems
CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
PHONE: 651-647-6109, FAX: 866-280-2356, WEB: www.haven2.com, HANDLE: OConnorStP (ID for Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.)
participants (7)
-
Dorrain, Kristine -
Holly Raiche -
James M. Bladel -
Kevin Erdman -
Mike O'Connor -
Rob Golding -
Volker Greimann