Dear All, Please find the attendance and recording of the call attached to this email. The AC recording and AC Chat are listed below for the New gTLD Subsequent Procedures Sub Team – Track 2 – Legal/Regulatory Issues held on Thursday, 02 March 2017 at 21:00 UTC. Adobe Connect recording (audio and visual): <https://participate.icann.org/p6ksb5h5weq/?OWASP_CSRFTOKEN=d2bb332eb83bd37e 112e25e7751c52e54fb922234e519726f89516ceebbbd6db> https://participate.icann.org/p6ksb5h5weq/ The recordings of the calls are posted on the GNSO Master Calendar page: <http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar> http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar ** Please let me know if your name has been left off the list ** Mailing list archives: <http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt2> http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt2 Agenda Wiki page: <https://community.icann.org/x/7ZLRAw> https://community.icann.org/x/7ZLRAw Thank you. Kind regards, Terri ------------------------------- Adobe Connect chat transcript for 02 March 2017 Terri Agnew:Welcome to the New gTLD Subsequent Procedures Sub Team – Track 2 – Legal/Regulatory Issues call on Thursday, 02 March 2017 at 21:00 UTC for 60 minutes. Terri Agnew:agenda wiki page: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_x_7 ZLRAw <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_x_ 7ZLRAw&d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=DRa2dXAvSFpC IgmkXhFzL7ar9Qfqa0AIgn-H4xR2EBk&m=G5NCNIjPh8JfDXAGjCT7WnPi6lqh2L4zFNA-8MoKX5 o&s=7bvJjK1XwWpPFO0UKjiSy10Kq25506GfXRVEqkyEqjo&e> &d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=DRa2dXAvSFpCIgmkXh FzL7ar9Qfqa0AIgn-H4xR2EBk&m=G5NCNIjPh8JfDXAGjCT7WnPi6lqh2L4zFNA-8MoKX5o&s=7b vJjK1XwWpPFO0UKjiSy10Kq25506GfXRVEqkyEqjo&e= Emily Barabas:a little quiet Susan Payne:sounds fine Kristina Rosette (Amazon Registry):we can hear you. Karen Day:sounds fine Julie Hedlund:Your voice is quiet Michael Emily Barabas:but audible Julie Hedlund:Much better! Kristina Rosette (Amazon Registry):yes Karen Day:wow! Emily Barabas:yes Jeff Neuman:Hereis the report: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_en_system _files_files_report-2Dcomments-2Dclosed-2Dgeneric-2D08jul13-2Den.pdf <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_en_syste m_files_files_report-2Dcomments-2Dclosed-2Dgeneric-2D08jul13-2Den.pdf&d=DwIF aQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=DRa2dXAvSFpCIgmkXhFzL7ar9 Qfqa0AIgn-H4xR2EBk&m=G5NCNIjPh8JfDXAGjCT7WnPi6lqh2L4zFNA-8MoKX5o&s=yn2GD2Jlq rqmAqbb6TOdU80R_pi9WebcFMf17o3pLi0&e> &d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=DRa2dXAvSFpCIgmkXh FzL7ar9Qfqa0AIgn-H4xR2EBk&m=G5NCNIjPh8JfDXAGjCT7WnPi6lqh2L4zFNA-8MoKX5o&s=yn 2GD2JlqrqmAqbb6TOdU80R_pi9WebcFMf17o3pLi0&e= Jeff Neuman:(Public comments) Kristina Rosette (Amazon Registry):That's the link I sent around by email before the call. Jeff Neuman:you dont have to read it Kristina Rosette (Amazon Registry):You don't need to read it. Everyone can find it on ICANN's website. Emily Barabas:we see what you are doing Emily Barabas:(scrolling, zooming, etc) Steve Chan 2:We'll unsync now though... Alexander Schubert:The AG should exclude generic keyword strings! Alexander Schubert:.makeup - L'Oréal - totally unused Susan Payne:Alexander, do you have voice capability - would be good for you to expand on makeup Karen Day:@Alexander should exclude generic strings or just closed generic strings? Alexander Schubert:Some corporate platers buy these strings up to close them down.... Alexander Schubert:You will also see registries who will rather keep ownership of all domains and "lease" them out; instead of having regular registrations. Which kills all rights for domain registrants. Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):of course they do and that as a model for them is Ok... but it does have a chilling effect on others and contributes nothing to diversity trust competition or choice Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):that last comment was re buy and shut down name use Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):yes Jeff that is a real risk IMO Karen Day:@CLO - I disagree as regards stiffling competition, it may well 'chill' competition amongst the buy/sell side but it infact encourages competition between business and those who can innovate in the domain space by offering a tangible reward for devloping a viable innovative buisness model. Susan Payne:correct :Paul - Board chose not to make really a decision on this which is why they tasked GNSO to form a policy for future. No-one in round one could proceed as a closed generic but they were given option eventually (after most had already agreed they would open up) to go on indefinite holdd pending this PDP. Karen Day:@Alexander the .makeup space isn't being used b/c L'Oreals model was not operate an open registry. Perhaps it would be a very cool space if they hadn't been forced to open?? Kristina Rosette (Amazon Registry):Here's the Amazon letter I mentioned: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__forum.icann.org_lists_c omments-2Dclosed-2Dgeneric-2D05feb13_pdfgIbbsgX7WQ.pdf <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__forum.icann.org_lists_ comments-2Dclosed-2Dgeneric-2D05feb13_pdfgIbbsgX7WQ.pdf&d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp 6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=DRa2dXAvSFpCIgmkXhFzL7ar9Qfqa0AIgn-H4xR 2EBk&m=G5NCNIjPh8JfDXAGjCT7WnPi6lqh2L4zFNA-8MoKX5o&s=FmZ3F6AhElQbth0lFxBUsqt um7qEbwWzgHXCWXpv7BY&e> &d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=DRa2dXAvSFpCIgmkXh FzL7ar9Qfqa0AIgn-H4xR2EBk&m=G5NCNIjPh8JfDXAGjCT7WnPi6lqh2L4zFNA-8MoKX5o&s=Fm Z3F6AhElQbth0lFxBUsqtum7qEbwWzgHXCWXpv7BY&e= Paul McGrady:@Susan, except what the Board did was undo the decision that they had made to allow it when the AGB was published. Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):possibly @Karen, Kristina Rosette (Amazon Registry):+1 Paul Susan Payne:@Paul - Yes, I agree the AGB did not prohibit Alexander Schubert:If it is not a generic keyword based string: operate it like you want. But category killer keyword strings should not serve to cut out your competition or have some fishy business models which deprive registrants of certainty. A Heather Forrest:Hi everyone - apologies for joining late! Alexander Schubert:Closed Generics WILL be abused - big time. Yes: There MIGHT be some benefitial cool new business models. I doubt it: There were zero new business models in 2012. Likely this simply opens the floodgates to abuse. Karen Day 2:+1 Kristina - there is too much inconsistancy as is. Kristina Rosette (Amazon Registry):@Alexander: I think it's too early to say that zero new business models came out of the 2012 round. Paul McGrady:@Alexander - maybe the cool new business models were shutdown when the Board shutdown new generics... Alexander Schubert:Say 99% run the .com model :-) Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):that is a risk that parts of the ICANN community will be most concerned about @Alexander... yes Alexander Schubert:Then: If someone needs a closed gneric for a category killer keyword string - let them propose their model - give the Internet community opportunity to oppose it! Kevin Kreuser (GoDaddy):Dish Paul McGrady:An 8 year hold is a death sentence. Let's not pretend that what the Board did was anything other than killing off closed generics... Kristina Rosette (Amazon Registry):@Jeff: You can figure it out by reading the Spec. 13 application. That's public. Kristina Rosette (Amazon Registry):Well, you can see what they argued. Not what ICANN's rationale was. Paul McGrady:The difference between now and then is that the USG was part of the GAC that advised to kill off closed generics. The USG was, at the time, the final say in what got in and what did not. There would have been no point in allowing closed generics to proceed if the USG was not going to let them in the root in any event. However, the USG is no longer in that role. Karen Day 2:Guess we need to ask Apple too then @Jeff - it's a brand. Michael Flemming:I think Jeff is aware of that. He just wants us discuss about those brands that overlap with generic strings. Alexander Schubert:ICANN provides registrants with certain rights! If domains aren't anymore REGISTERED (via registrars) then all these rights are gone. The domain is then "leased" - maybe according to some Offshore legal entity that you can't even sue in the U.S.! Does the registrars constituency know that they are about to be thrown under the bus? Maybe someone should tell them.... Kristina Rosette (Amazon Registry):I don't think it's necessarily your role to have to come up with all the questions. We, as a group, do. Paul McGrady:@Jeff, its a competition law issue. Mary Wong:@Paul, what would be the specific legal question(s) to be asked? Susan Payne:OK - Question to get ball rolling: Is there a harm to allowing closed generics and if so what is that harm avri doria:what the harm is, or what the harrm is beleived to be. Karen Day 2:That wasthe percieved harm, but maybe Susan is asking do we have evidence of actual harm? Mary Wong:Going back to basics - does the group have a common understanding of what "closed generics" means as a term and category? Alexander Schubert:ONE SImple example: In the current registry-registrar-registrant model a domain is registered; and can be renewed infinitely. The registrant invests money and builds a brand around the domain. In the closed generics model a registry could simply retain the right to "sell" the domain at any time - and cancel the lease! So if you make books.com a big brand - the registry can kind of sell the besis of your brand! Just an example how registrants rights might be violated! Heather Forrest:In my mind this all feeds into a broader question, which is: what do we do with those areas of the Guidebook that progressed/changed after the GNSO PDP recommendations were agreed upon (ie, through GAC/Board change)? Paul McGrady:@Mary Wong, happy to help think through your question and get a more robust/specific response, but what immediately comes to mind is: Does the post-IANA transition ICANN (the corporation) have a legal basis to restrict the nature of the business models adopted by gTLD registries other than requiring registries to comply with applicable law? Kristina Rosette (Amazon Registry):Many of us have long flights coming up in which we could read the public comment report. ;-) Karen Day 2:@Mary, I think that is a debatable question as some will argue that "generic" only applies to those specific tlds that the GAC called out. avri doria:i have heard of no actual harm. Food is a good example. while it is a brand, it looks like a close generic and if being run as a closed generic, has there been any harm? Mary Wong:@Karen, that's why staff is asking the question - if there is no agreed understanding of what the term means, it's hard to see how conclusions can be reached via consensus. Mary Wong:@Paul, thanks Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):good plan Jeff Karen Day 2:@Mary totally agree avri doria:and are there other cases of branded generic words that are being run closed? Paul McGrady:@Jeff, I think we need to answer the basement question first. Can the new ICANN actually do this (harm or not)? Jeff Neuman:Paul - I dont think that we can get into the overarching questions Jeff Neuman:@paul - that question would apply to everything ICANN does Paul McGrady:@Jeff, how so? Jeff Neuman:I guess their answer would be that they can do anything that anyone contractually agrees with Jeff Neuman:Does ICANN have the right to require PICS? Jeff Neuman:Does ICANN have the right to require a public whois? Jeff Neuman:What I am saying is that it cant be for our group to research whether icann has the right to regulate Kristina Rosette (Amazon Registry):Oh Jeff, I don't have the energy for an existencial crisis right now. :-) Jeff Neuman:@Kristina - exactly :) Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):hell no Paul McGrady:@Jeff, its not the right to regulate that is the concern. It is the right to exclude that is the problem being discussed. Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):the energy not the answer to the questions Jeff Neuman:By signing the Applicant Terms and conditions, every applicant gives ICANN the right to exclde for any reason Jeff Neuman:(which I do not agree with) Jeff Neuman:But that is what they would argue Paul McGrady:@Jeff, if I don't want to sign the Applicant Terms & Conditions, where else can I "buy" a TLD registry contract? Kristina Rosette (Amazon Registry):I think we have only a few minutes. Can we agree on an action plan for our next meeting? avri doria:For the moment can we accept there is as of yet no proof of harm? Alexander Schubert:This is how for example .de.com domains are sold in a way that completely "feels" like a "normal regisration" - but if someone buys "de.com" up - all registrantions are gone... https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.namecheap.com_domai ns_registration_cctld_de-2Dcom.aspx <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.namecheap.com_doma ins_registration_cctld_de-2Dcom.aspx&d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPS S6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=DRa2dXAvSFpCIgmkXhFzL7ar9Qfqa0AIgn-H4xR2EBk&m=G5NCNIjPh8Jf DXAGjCT7WnPi6lqh2L4zFNA-8MoKX5o&s=ZN1VkJqj2_DBTqG3FYb4iozjz7BZwhrmOaVGzA_zTB 0&e> &d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=DRa2dXAvSFpCIgmkXh FzL7ar9Qfqa0AIgn-H4xR2EBk&m=G5NCNIjPh8JfDXAGjCT7WnPi6lqh2L4zFNA-8MoKX5o&s=ZN 1VkJqj2_DBTqG3FYb4iozjz7BZwhrmOaVGzA_zTB0&e= Michael Flemming:Yes, Avri. So we will ask for it. Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO):bye for now then... safe travels to those who are attending CPH meeting Kristina Rosette (Amazon Registry):bye. Safe travels. Jeff Neuman:my computer is not letting me lower the hand :) Alexander Schubert:TNX Alexander Schubert:Bye Robert Burlingame:Thank you. Karen Day 2:bye all