July 2014 - Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg

Agenda for WG meeting on 22 July 2014
by Mary Wong July 21, 2014

July 21, 2014

Hello everyone, Here is the proposed agenda for the next WG meeting on 22 July: 1. Roll Call/Updates to SOI 2. Continue discussions on E-1 (incorporating latest mailing list discussion initiated by Alex) 3. Commence discussions on E-2 (if time permits) 4. Next steps/next meeting The updated E-1 template was sent out last week please continue to note and send in your comments. The proposed E-2 template was also sent out both have also been uploaded to the WG wiki at https://community.icann.org/x/t7nhAg and will be posted to the AC room for the meeting. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4892 Email: mary.wong(a)icann.org

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Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] FW: EWG Final Report
by Marika Konings July 21, 2014

July 21, 2014

To facilitate your review, please find Annex H attached. Best regards, Marika From: Don Blumenthal <dblumenthal(a)pir.org> Date: Saturday 19 July 2014 15:10 To: "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg(a)icann.org" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg(a)icann.org> Subject: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] FW: EWG Final Report Sorry. In the interest of accuracy, it¹s Annex H. That will teach me not to be working at 9 on a Saturday. From: Don Blumenthal <dblumenthal(a)pir.org> Date: Saturday, July 19, 2014 at 9:07 AM To: PPSAI <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg(a)icann.org> Subject: EWG Final Report I don¹t know how many of you have read the report or how thoroughly. I think that we briefly mentioned on a call that it has a short, in relation to the length, discussion of p/p. In addition, Appendix H is all about Relay/Reveal and has some thoughts that we might want to consider. The final report is now linked from the wiki Background Documents section. Don

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EWG Final Report
by Don Blumenthal July 19, 2014

July 19, 2014

I don’t know how many of you have read the report or how thoroughly. I think that we briefly mentioned on a call that it has a short, in relation to the length, discussion of p/p. In addition, Appendix H is all about Relay/Reveal and has some thoughts that we might want to consider. The final report is now linked from the wiki Background Documents section. Don

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Relay failure notification
by Alex_Deacon＠mpaa.org July 18, 2014

July 18, 2014

Hi all, Thinking about relay i’m curious to hear people views on what happens if there is a relay failure between the P/P service and their customer. For example, in a scenario where no P/P is in use, when I attempt to communicate with the registrant using info in WHOIS and there is some kind of failure, (be it a bounce-o-gram for email, a call "can’t be completed” or "number not in service" error for phone and a undeliverable indication for postal mail) the failure indication is returned to me and I am aware of it. Would this be true when a P/P is in the middle of me and the registrant using the P/P service? I suspect that if there is an automated process in place (email for example) I may. But if a manual process is in place (for email, phone or snail mail) there is a possibility that I (as the original requestor) may not always know if a failure has occurred between the P/P service and their customer. There should be parity between the P/P world and the non-P/P world in this regard and the original requestor should be aware of any failures that may occur between the P/P service and the customer. To be clear I’m not talking about not getting a response (i get it) - I’m only interested in the failure scenario. Thanks and have a great weekend. Alex

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MP3 PPSAI WG - Tuesday 15 July 2014 at 1400 UTC
by Nathalie Peregrine July 15, 2014

July 15, 2014

Dear All, Please find the MP3 recording for the Privacy and Proxy Services Accreditation Issues PDP Working group call held on Tuesday 15 July 2014 at 14:00 UTC at: http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-ppsa-20140715-en.mp3 On page: <http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar#jul> http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar#jul The recordings and transcriptions of the calls are posted on the GNSO Master Calendar page: <http://gnso.icann.org/calendar/> http://gnso.icann.org/calendar/ Attendees: Steve Metalitz - IPC Justin Macy – BC Sarah Wyld - RrSG Chris Pelling – RrSG Darcy Southwell - RrSG Graeme Bunton – RrSG Don Blumenthal – RySG Val Sherman – IPC Griffin Barnett – IPC Susan Kawaguchi – BC Kathy Kleiman – NCUC Stephanie Perrin – NCSG James Bladel – RrSG David Hea sley – IPC Alex Deacon - IPC Jim Bikoff – IPC Osvaldo Novoa – ISPCP Kristina Rosette – IPC Paul McGrady – IPC Carlton Samuels – ALAC Todd Williams – IPC Dan Burke – Individual Laura Jedeed – BC Chris Chaplow – BC Libby Baney – BC Tim Ruiz - RrSG Christian Dawson - ISPCP Apologies: Susan Prosser- RrSG Michele Neylon – RrSG Holly Raiche - ALAC ICANN staff: Marika Konings Mary Wong Nathalie Peregrine ** Please let me know if your name has been left off the list ** Mailing list archives: <http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg/> http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg/ Wiki page: <https://community.icann.org/x/9iCfAg> https://community.icann.org/x/9iCfAg Thank you. Kind regards, Nathalie ------------------------------- Adobe Connect chat transcript for Tuesday 15 July 2014: Marika Konings:Welcome to the PPSAI WG Meeting of 15 July 2014 Chris Pelling:afternoon all Chris Pelling:just waiting for someone to pick the phone up Mary Wong:Hi Chris - yes there seems to be a short delay there; hang on. Nathalie Peregrine:Chris & Mary, I have informed the operator Mary Wong:Thanks, Nathalie - I'm on now Nathalie Peregrine:Excellent, you are both on! Chris Pelling:well I think I am on now, all quiet :p Chris Pelling:touch wood someone heard that :) Chris Pelling:aha Nathalie Peregrine:We heard you Chris :) Bladel:Waiting for the operator Nathalie Peregrine:James, Ive informed the operator Kathy:still holding... steve metalitz:A coordinator will assist me momentarily.... Kathy:But can hear you Don, loud and clear Sarah Wyld - Aplus.net:Hi, I'm also waiting for an operator. Nathalie Peregrine:The telecom providers do tend to experience heavy call traffic at the top of the hour Bladel:If your browser supports it, yep. :) Kathy:I'm in! Val Sherman:Good morning Val Sherman:David Heasley is also on the call Don Blumenthal:I didn't know that some browsers have difficulties Griffin Barnett:David Heasley from our office is also on the call, thanks Nathalie Peregrine:Thanks noted! Nathalie Peregrine:Paul McGrady has also joined the call Tim Ruiz:Could not hear Steve. Nathalie Peregrine:Alex Deacon and Christian Dawson have joined the call Nathalie Peregrine:Susan Kawaguchi has joined the call Nathalie Peregrine:David Cake has joined the call Mary Wong:In the RAA P/P temp spec, there's this language: Unless prohibited by law, P/P Provider shall promptly (within five (5) business days) relay or forward all allegations of malicious conduct, cybersquatting, and other illegal activities to the P/P Customer, except in instances the P/P Provider is notified that the relay of such allegations may jeopardize an ongoing civil or criminal investigation Paul McGrady:Steve is extremly hard to hear. Tim Ruiz:Can barely hear Steve. Mary Wong:(oops sorry for nasty formatting) Don Blumenthal:Mary, the excerpt is unreadable in my chat window Nathalie Peregrine:I have asked the operator to increase volume on Steve's line Nathalie Peregrine:Stephanie Perrin has joined the call Nathalie Peregrine:Carlton Samuels has joined the call Carlton:Morning all Kathy:I have the same question - what limits do some p/p impose on Relay - and why? Kathy:Morning Carlton! Tim Ruiz:It may be different from Proxy versus non-proxy. Kathy:@Tim: how so? Carlton:@Kathy Question re limts on relay and why...+1 Mary Wong:OK trying again: Unless prohibited by law, P/P Provider shall promptly (within five (5) business days) relay or forward all allegations of malicious conduct, cybersquatting, and other illegal activities to the P/P Customer, except in instances the P/P Provider is notified that the relay of such allegations may jeopardize an ongoing civil or criminal investigation. Tim Ruiz:In Proxy the provider considered the registrant Mary Wong:That's Section 3.4 of the temp P/P spec from the 2013 RAA. Tim Ruiz:or may be considered the registrant. Carlton:@Mary: So current rule limit relay only with respect of jeopardy for legal proceedings. Is that decision left to judgment of p/p provider or is there some objective standard? Mary Wong:My apologies - something dropped out of my comment. I meant to note that 3.4 was in an earlier version of the P/P spec but did not seem to make it into the final document. Don Blumenthal:Carlston, I thnk that's part of what we have to decide. Mary Wong:@Don, exactly. Carlton:@Don thanks... steve metalitz:DBP allows customer to choose "relay everything" Stephanie Perrin:The problem is, if we use squishy language, we then merely punt the problem over to the service provider Chris Pelling:we use our own privacy service, which essentially will forward ANY email as long as the instructions are followed AND you do the reply mail to the correct address (which cheanges daily) within 24 hours Stephanie Perrin:I think Susan is making my point... Chris Pelling:now if LEA contacts us directly, without going through the P/P service thats up to us to forward Nathalie Peregrine:Osvaldo Novoa has joined the call Bladel::) Osvaldo Novoa:Sorry I am late, was delayed in aprevious meeting Tim Ruiz:Spam filters may be applied pre or post control of the P/P Provider. Justin Macy:@Mary I noticed that LegitScript's comments aren't included in the comments section at the bottom of the page. Is this an ommision, or did LS not respond to this question? Tim Ruiz:+1 David Kathy:And a quick note that we have heard in past discussions that one of the reasons people register as p/p is to prevent spam.... Marika Konings:Hi Justin - the original survey question combined reveal and relay - as your comments focused more specifically on reveal, it will show up in the templates for the next category. Marika Konings:I'll send you the response off-list so you can let me know if you would like any part of it included as part of the next iteration of the template. Justin Macy:Great. Thank you! Susan kawaguchi:agree with James I am not advocating to make the PP responsible for the licensee to respond to anything Graeme Bunton:Sensible, James. Kathy:I like James' idea of some flexibility in this process. Some p/p will provide more; some less. but a baseline set here. Chris Pelling::@steve, its probably automatic relay, I doubt someone actually sits there going through emails, could be wrong mind you Libby Baney:Good point Steve Kathy:As discussed earlier, I often get multiple calls by telephone that constitute harrassment, even though they allege that there is something I should be doing... Tim Ruiz:How does the provider figure out when complaints etc. are not reponded to? Graeme Bunton:can't be done, Tim steve metalitz:@Tim, it would be up to complainant to document that. "This complaint has been sent for relay X times and no response received. Tim Ruiz:Thanks Steve. Bladel:Sorry, but I need to drop and head to the airport. Chris Pelling:well surely thats up to the complainant if they want to respond Chris Pelling:I do not get the login on that, if they dont want to respond, what are you going to do, demand their private info and then send snailmail ? Chris Pelling:lofin=logic Chris Pelling:crumbs - you know what I meant :) Don Blumenthal:Chris, we must be getting near the end of the call. :) Kathy:Agree with Susan that the tracking of the response -- and the underlying issue - runs with the Requestor Justin Macy:+1 Susan Chris Pelling:by phone cannot be handled Kathy:Is that a RELAY question? Chris Pelling:as there is no chain Graeme Bunton:Agreed with Chris Tim Ruiz:No Paul McGrady:Agree with Todd. Important issue to discuss during reveal conversation. steve metalitz:Agree with Todd re relevance of multiple relays without response. Kristina Rosette 2:sorry. have to drop. will catch up on transcript Tim Ruiz:Agree with Chris regarding phone calls. Dan Burke:Thanks for including me :) Graeme Bunton:It IS good to get some LEA perspective directly, thank you Dan. Mary Wong:We'll update the template with summaries of today's discussion. Tim Ruiz:Thanks Don, bye all. Paul McGrady:Thanks Don! Mary Wong:Thank you Don and all! Chris Pelling:Thanks all

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Updated WG wiki (with documents) and new E-2 template
by Mary Wong July 14, 2014

July 14, 2014

Dear all, The latest versions of the templates for D-4 (for conclusion) and E-1 (for discussion) can be found on and downloaded from the WG wiki space at: https://community.icann.org/x/-bfhAg. We have also uploaded a template for E-2 on the same page, although (as mentioned previously) it is not likely we will get to that till next week at the earliest. Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4892 Email: mary.wong(a)icann.org

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Agenda for WG call on 15 July
by Mary Wong July 14, 2014

July 14, 2014

Dear all, Please find below the proposed agenda for the WG meeting on Tuesday 15 July: 1. Roll Call/Updates to SOI 2. Complete discussion on D-4 3. Commence deliberations on E-1 4. Next steps/next meeting Although D-4 remains on the agenda, the idea is to have only a brief discussion to close off that question, with the bulk of the call to be spent on E-1. The latest version of the D-4 template and the initial version for E-1 were sent out last week, and we will also update the wiki accordingly. In addition, while it¹s unlikely we will finish with E-1, we will also prepare and send around an initial template for E-2 before tomorrow. Thanks and cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4892 Email: mary.wong(a)icann.org

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Doodle Poll
by Don Blumenthal July 14, 2014

July 14, 2014

A reminder about part of Marika’s message last week about the facilitated F2F pilot: To get an idea whether you would be available to participate (either in person or remotely), noting that we are aware that for some it may not be possible yet to provide a definitive answer at this stage, we would like to ask you to complete the following doodle poll: http://doodle.com/v6u29dnnui8xb73z. Don

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Updated template for D-4; new template for E-1
by Mary Wong July 9, 2014

July 9, 2014

Dear WG members, Attached please find: (1) an updated redlined version of the draft template for D-4; (2) a clean version of the updated D-4 document; and (3) a new draft template for E-1 (the first question in the next category, on Relay). For D-4, please note that we have retained the yellow highlighted part, meant for minimum types of information to be included in a form report. Without actually designing the form, requiring additional specific fields or laying out all the elements to be filled in (which would be implementation-related tasks beyond the scope of this WG), it seems that WG members would like to see a minimum set of requirements included as part of the group¹s recommendations for this question. As such and bearing in mind that this question relates only to the forms of malicious conduct/abuse to be reported to a designated point of contact for the P/P provider and not to any criteria bearing on Relay or Reveal procedures please indicate on this mailing list any requirements you or your group believe should be an essential minimum element in the reporting form. Thanks and cheers Mary

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MP3 PPSAI WG - Tuesday 08 July 2014 at 1400 UTC
by Terri Agnew July 8, 2014

July 8, 2014

Dear All, Please find the MP3 recording for the Privacy and Proxy Services Accreditation Issues PDP Working group call held on Tuesday 08 July 2014 at 14:00 UTC at: <http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-ppsa-20140707-en.mp3> http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-ppsa-20140707-en.mp3 On page: <http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar#jul> http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar#jul The recordings and transcriptions of the calls are posted on the GNSO Master Calendar page: <http://gnso.icann.org/calendar/> http://gnso.icann.org/calendar/ Attendees: Steve Metalitz - IPC Justin Macy – BC Sarah Wyld - RrSG Chris Pelling – RrSG Darcy Southwell - RrSG Graeme Bunton – RrSG Don Blumenthal – RySG Phil Marano – IPC Val Sherman – IPC Griffin Barnett – IPC Tatiana Khramtsova – RrSG Susan Kawguchi – BC Volker Greimann – RrSG Kathy Kleiman – NCUC Holly Raiche – ALAC Luc Seufer – RrSG Stephanie Perrin – NCSG Michele Neylon – RrSG James Bladel – RrSG Roy Balleste – NCUC Michele Neylon – RrSG Don Moody – IPC David Heasley – IPC Jim Bikoff – IPC Frank Michlick – Individual Kristina Rosette – IPC Paul McGrady – IPC Carlton Samuels – ALAC Todd Williams – IPC Lindsay Hamilton-Reid – RrSG Apologies: Osvaldo Novoa – ISPCP Susan Prosser- RrSG Brian Winterfeldt - IPC ICANN staff: Marika Konings Mary Wong Amy Bivins Glen de Saint Gery Terri Agnew ** Please let me know if your name has been left off the list ** Mailing list archives: <http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg/> http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg/ Wiki page: <https://community.icann.org/x/9iCfAg> https://community.icann.org/x/9iCfAg Thank you. Kind regards, Terri Agnew ------------------------------- Adobe Connect chat transcript for Tuesday 08 July 2014: Marika Konings:Welcome to the PPSAI WG meeting of 8 July 2014 Terri Agnew:Hi everyhone, AC will be connected in a moment Bladel:Good mroning. I'm finishing up another call, but will join the bridge when able. Thanks! Terri Agnew:Thank you for letting us know James Michele Neylon:I'll dial in shortly Chris Pelling:afternoon all :) Val Sherman:Good morning all Don Blumenthal:The adobe call in feature isn't enabled. I will jump to Skype,. Val Sherman:David Heasley also on call Terri Agnew:I have David noted Graeme Bunton:Is there a reason we can't connect to the Adobe audio? Michele Neylon:dialled in .. Michele Neylon:yay Michele Neylon:or something Stephanie Perrin:cannot activate audio, do we give up and dial in? Michele Neylon:Operator is saying to dialin Michele Neylon:though since audio isn't working Michele Neylon:I suspect only those of us on the bridge are hearing her :) Chris Pelling:whoever is typing please turn your MIC off Chris Pelling:is that you michele ? :p Michele Neylon:get lost Michele Neylon::) Chris Pelling:hehehe Chris Pelling:I can hear terry from staff Don Blumenthal:Apologies. Problems with dialing in. Holly Raiche:I can hear you Kathy:Hi All! Michele Neylon:Holly - who is "you"? :) Terri Agnew:Is ac working now? Graeme Bunton:Dialed in Holly Raiche:2Michele - So far, only Terri but I live in hope! Graeme Bunton:oop. Got adobe working. Kathy:Hooray for post-ICANN vacations :-)! Michele Neylon:it's cos I wasn't there Don Michele Neylon:admit it Graeme Bunton:nearly miraculous. Luc Seufer:finally a panel without the Irish man! woot woot woot Terri Agnew:Kristina, I have you noted Lindsay Hamilton-Reid:I can't hear anything but that might just be because there is nothing to hear yet . . . . . Luc Seufer:are the pot ICANN vaction and Interpol rep. yelling somehow inked? Luc Seufer:linked Marika Konings:Welcome to Lindsay who is the new member. Luc Seufer:good to hear Marika Konings:@Lindsay - you should hear audio via your computer (through the ADobe Connect room) Graeme Bunton:Lindsay - yep. Things are happenig. Maybe you need to connect your audio or try dialing in Michele Neylon:Lindsay - you need to dial in Marika Konings:if you are having issues, we can also dial out to you Michele Neylon:afternoon by the way Lindsay Hamilton-Reid:Thanks Marika and Graeme. Kathy:It was a good meeting - tx you, Don! Lindsay Hamilton-Reid:I will try dialling in again Kathy:Marika, Mary, could you provide the link to Category E, Q1 here in chat? Tx. Marika Konings:@Kathy - we haven't circulated the template yet, but will do so shortly after the call. Kathy:But isn't it on the agenda for today? Terri Agnew:Paul McGrady has joined Marika Konings:Yes, if we have time left. We'll walk through the information we've collected so people can think about what additional information may be needed for review prior to the next meeting. steve metalitz:Agree we are making good progress. Terri Agnew:Phil Marano has joined Carlton:Howdy all Terri Agnew:Carlton Samuels, I have you added to attendance Carlton:Thks Terri Terri Agnew:and Welcome Kathy:It's good to do this very early - tx you! Graeme Bunton:LA meeting is on Canadian thxgiving weekend, which might impact peoples plans. Kathy:Agree with Steve; it's at least two nights of hotel rooms for those of us who normally come in on Sunday... Volker Greimann:I think we should not discuss allocation of ICANN funds here Chris Pelling:exactly Chris Pelling:sorry this is WG for PP Michele Neylon:can we discuss this via email? Chris Pelling:come on guys, get back on track please Chris Pelling:Steve, no objection at all, just can be better done via email Michele Neylon:um Michele Neylon:that was odd Michele Neylon:music Mary Wong:We'll send out the email confirming the infomation Marika has given. The idea here was to let everyone know of the planned F2F meeting for LA. Michele Neylon:oooo Michele Neylon:I see lots of IPv6 Michele Neylon:sorry - was fixing my desktop machine Marika Konings:Please note that the different alternatives can be found on page 6, 7 and 8 Chris Pelling:Michele, Apple = hammer doesnt it ? :p Michele Neylon:Chris - IPv6 using DHCP Michele Neylon:didn't realise I had it switched off Michele Neylon:who is panting? Chris Pelling:Thnk its Don Don Blumenthal:ON mute when I'm not talking. steve metalitz:Crossing out DMCA language was NOT my suggestion, just clarifying that there is no standardized form today. Carlton:I would be VERY cautious of using the DMCA form. At least one of them I see. Different objectives for one Mary Wong:The USA's Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) contains a number of required criteria that must be included in a takedown notice, e.g., contact info, good faith declaration, signature, specification of objected-to content. Mary Wong:This WG may consider specifyging the elements that must be in a form rather than designing the form itself, for instance. Carlton:@Mary: Agreed. So fulsome adoption may not be optimal Kristina Rosette:@Mary: It's my recollection that that (elements, not form) was the original idea. Carlton:@Kristina: Good to know Terri Agnew:Todd Williams has joined Carlton:@Holly: In its consideration of purpose based contacts (PBCs), the EWG anticipated this and other WG might recommend a triage to determine timing etc for each contact. Carlton:type Bladel:+1 Don. Stephanie Perrin:Don't we need to focus in on the allegation, and the form of the allegation? Much easier than identifying types of alleged malicious content. Luc Seufer:@Stephanie agreed Kathy:To Holly's point, and mine: can we create a new question or time to evaluate the requestor and any history known of the requestor? Carlton:@Steph: Precisely. Focusing on allegation and the form is the starting type. The idea is that a risk profile would determine what the recommendation for response,. Action also has other determinants. Don Blumenthal:Michele, fair enough. I was talking at a basic level. Jurisdiction clearly factors in. Carlton:@Michele: +1. Jurisdiction is just one other determinant. Marika Konings:Please note that this question relates specifically to a contact point provided by the P/P - questions in relation to relay and what action need to be taken will come up under the next categeories of questions. Kathy:Sorry Stephanie, can't hear you.... Carlton:I think we lost her Don Blumenthal:Stephanie, we lost you Luc Seufer:And this is without mentioning the difference of alphabet. In the past we receive what we believe was Russian court documents, we weren't able to even reply. Michele Neylon:Luc - we have russian speakers on staff Terri Agnew:Stephanie, Ihave private chatted you Luc Seufer:okay, Chinese then Volker Greimann:non-LEA has no overall generic "right" to someones private data Michele Neylon:Volker +1 Holly Raiche:@ Wolker- I think that was the point I was trying to make Carlton:@Kathy: Good qustion. Who and what must be elements for questioning. I would wish to see list of itmes on any form. We must have a triage operation Holly Raiche:Sorry - Volker Chris Pelling:Volker +1 steve metalitz:It is not correct that copyright ifnfringement is not subject to independent verification. Carlton:..and now that Michele mentioned it, I can recall the arguments we had over how to respond to issues surrounding local marks. Kathy:@Steve: but copyright infringement vs. fair use and legitimate critique is normally subject to court review... Carlton:TMCH remains mute on this..and we know it will come from bitter experience Kathy:Tx Michele! Michele Neylon:I'd actually agree with Steve Michele Neylon:please don't use this against me Michele Neylon::) Kathy:I think we are talking about new fields, including who the Requester is, what their status is, what their jurisdiction is, Kathy:and why something is alleged as being illega. Holly Raiche:@Kathy +1 Kathy:But Reveal is the key - especially for speech and content issues... Stephanie Perrin:testing Luc Seufer:How do you prove that you have relayed without disclosing the underlying details though? Holly Raiche:Good question Luc Kathy:Don - I think we have some new fields! steve metalitz:Michele our secret agreement will be kept confidential..... Mary Wong:We will send out an updated version of D-4 Michele Neylon:Steve - good Holly Raiche:We promise not to tell on Steve and Michele Volker Greimann:so now we know michele is for sale ;-) Stephanie Perrin:sorry, for some reason I keep dropping, including on text Michele Neylon:Volker - and you're not? Carlton:Thanks all. Good discussion! We seem to be cooking now. Michele Neylon:Carlton - you cook? Luc Seufer:bye Kathy:But what is the secret ingredient? Mary Wong:Thanks everyone! Chris Pelling:bye all

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