Bob,
You know the response on this. We've talked about it many times.
This is a speech/free expression/communication issue. There is no
legal obligation in the marketplace of ideas to wave a flag and
tell people where you are located when you are sharing minority
speech, dissenting speech, unpopular speech or even speech
critical of a product, service or company. There is no license for
speech and expression.
Further, an entire GNSO study set out to prove exactly what you
have submitted below. The National Physical Laboratory in
its Study of Whois Privacy and Proxy Service Abuse set out to test
the thesis that: "A significant percentage of the domain
names used to conduct illegal or harmful Internet
activities are registered via privacy or proxy services to
obscure the perpetrator's identity".
They couldn't do it! They found that a significant
percentage of legal activities and business, including banks,
use proxy privacy services.
Further, the Carnegie Mellon Study - confusingly called The Study
on Whois Misuse - found us that a lot of legitimate domain name
registrants ARE in danger because there IS "a statistically
significant occurrence of WHOIS misuse affecting Registrants’
email addresses, postal addresses, and phone numbers, published in
WHOIS when registering domains in these gTLDs. Overall, we find
that 44% of Registrants experience one or more of these types of
WHOIS misuse."
So let's not generalize anymore. We have findings. Further, we
have a proven market of proxy/privacy services that responded to a
legitimate, good faith need of organizations, individuals, and
yes, businesses for proxy/privacy registrations. The Whois Review
Team found that all three groups of registrants claimed legitimate
use of them.
Overall, we're not the bad guys - we're just domain name
registrants and proxy/privacy customers.
Best,
Kathy
Hi Volker,
Agreed, but the distortion cannot be ignored. If we stopped doing
things because of problems, we not drive cars, fly airplanes, or
probably walk down a street. However, we have safety procedures in
place for airplanes, we force people to learn how to drive cars
and we have police departments to enforce public safety.
Usually in these circumstances, the problems are in the minority,
whereas in the privacy/protection space, it is inverted.
-bob
On Thu, 6 Feb 2014, Volker Greimann wrote:
And yet we should not let the bad apples
dictate what services should or shouldn't be available for
those who have a legitimate need. Legitimate need is just that:
legitimate...
Volker
I am in agreement with you. Based on years of practical
experience, the bad actors far
outnumber those who have a legitimate need for anonimity.
--bob
On Thu, 6 Feb 2014, Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria wrote:
How far apart we are in this! As a provider offering
that option (reveal or
abandon), it will attract political dissidents,
persecuted religious
minorities, whistleblowers... but it must be aware
that it is luring into the
service many wrongdoers, confidence tricksters, IPR
pirate sites, illegal
gambling sites, child abusers, malware distributors
and the like. I´m not so
sure it could claim it is not actively contributing
to unlawful activity.
But´s that another story.
My point is that the mere possibility of offering
that option damps the
ability of public authorities to protect public
interests and could be
against the law. If, as most of you believe, the
provider should only process
requests coming from a LEA within their
jurisdiction, requests aimed at
dissidents, religious leaders ... would be stopped
there.
I´ve discovered only yesterday that IP providers and
hosting services are
acting sometimes as proxies for the real hosting
service. So, the business
thrives and diversifies to the despair of LEAs.
Kind regards,
Gema
-----Mensaje original-----
De: Wendy Seltzer [mailto:wendy@seltzer.com]
Enviado el: miércoles, 05 de febrero de 2014 16:19
Para: Michele Neylon - Blacknight; Volker Greimann;
Campillos Gonzalez, Gema
Maria; Tim Ruiz; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org
Asunto: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] PPSAI Work Plan
On 02/05/2014 09:40 AM, Michele Neylon - Blacknight
wrote:
Volker
Yeah - that's something I was very conscious
of when we discussed
this
in the EWG Simply pulling the service might
not be enough to
protect you as a provider .. and forcing all
providers into that
kind of situation seemed unreasonable . .
That's not universally true in the law. I'd argue
that under US law, there's
no liability on a provider of domain registry
services who does not encourage
or knowingly contribute to unlawful activity. [long
discussion of secondary
liability elsewhere, including in past discussions
of the legal absurdity of
3.7.7.3 ]
So providers should be permitted to take that view.
--Wendy
M
--
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Blacknight Solutions
Hosting & Colocation, Domains
http://www.blacknight.co/
http://blog.blacknight.com/
http://www.technology.ie
Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072
Locall: 1850 929 929
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Company No.:
370845
-----Original Message-----
From: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org
[mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org]
On Behalf Of Volker
Greimann
Sent: Wednesday, February 5, 2014 1:49 PM
To: Wendy Seltzer; Campillos Gonzalez, Gema
Maria; Tim Ruiz;
gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org
Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] PPSAI Work
Plan
While I understand this concern from a privacy
standpoint, as a
service provider this is problematic as one
needs to be able to
point to the responsible party in case of
legal violations in
order to avoid culpability and liability.
Volker
Dear Wendy, Tim, Volker and Group,
As regards the last paragraph on
Wendy´s
message...
I've proposed that registrants be
offered
the choice between potential
reveal and
potential termination of
registration
(that choice could be offered
up-front at
the time of registration, or at
the time
of the identification request).
For some
registrants, such as legitimate
whistleblowers whose anonymity for
fear
of retaliation is more important
than the
persistence of their domain
identifier,
this choice may be important. I
hope
we're at least leaving the
opportunity
for a compliant service to offer
an
"unidentified de-registration"
option,
even though we don't need to
mandate it
for all.
I have deep concerns with offering
such a
service. If the P&P service
receives a
request to reveal the identity and
contact data of the registrant, I
doubt
it can refuse to relay them on
account of
the de-registration of the domain
name
(which should be done through the
registrar). If the request comes
from an
individual or organization holding
a
legitimate interest, there may be
situations in which they would
still be
entitled to get those data (I´m
thinking
of a prospective file suit or
extrajudicial request for
redress). But,
let us discuss thoroughly at the
appropriate time in the Work Plan.
I believe it should be legitimate to
offer a service
that has no
possibility of identifying the
registrant. Instead,
it has other
accountability, namely that the domain
name stops
resolving upon
receipt of a legitimate complaint.
That's the
tradeoff I propose,
that there be some situations in which
it is by
design impossible to
get the identification of the
registrant, but it's
also impossible to
keep the name in the face of a
complaint.
--Wendy
Regards,
Gema
-----Mensaje original-----
De:
gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org
[mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org]
En nombre de Tim Ruiz
Enviado el: martes, 04 de febrero
de 2014
16:58
Para: Wendy Seltzer; Volker
Greimann;
gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org
Asunto: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg]
PPSAI
Work Plan
Wendy, I believe Kathy made sure
that was
captured in our call today.
________________________________________
From:
gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces
@
icann.org>
<gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounce
s @icann.org>> on behalf of
Wendy Seltzer
<wendy@seltzer.com<mailto:wendy@seltzer.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014
10:47 AM
To: Volker Greimann;
gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>
Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg]
PPSAI
Work Plan
On 01/30/2014 09:13 AM, Volker
Greimann
wrote:
Hi Gema,
One note to Main issue 3 as
it is proposed: This assumes
that the
provider has that kind of
access or ability. In many
cases, the
privacy service just allows
for the provision of its
data
and acts
as a forwarding service. In
the case of the provider
affiliated
with us, the provider has
one
ability only: Request the
removal of
its data from the whois.
Other privacy services may
have even less
influence over the
registration-
So requiring a takedown or
disabling/terminating the
registrants'
access may not be something
that a privacy or proxy
service
provider is set up to do,
depending on how he is
integrated with
the
registrar/reseller/registrant.
In the past we have always
talked about relay and
reveal. These are
the main opptions every
provider should have in my
opinion.
Anything beyond that may not
be feasible and may not even
be in the remit of the
provider.
If we're considering what should
be
required of services under a new
proposed
accreditation regime, then we
should be
prepared to think of what the
system
should have, not just what it can
currently accommodate.
I've proposed that registrants be
offered
the choice between potential
reveal and
potential termination of
registration
(that choice could be offered
up-front at
the time of registration, or at
the time
of the identification request).
For some
registrants, such as legitimate
whistleblowers whose anonymity for
fear
of retaliation is more important
than the
persistence of their domain
identifier,
this choice may be important. I
hope
we're at least leaving the
opportunity
for a compliant service to offer
an
"unidentified de-registration"
option,
even though we don't need to
mandate it
for all.
--Wendy
Volker
Am 30.01.2014 13:09, schrieb
Campillos Gonzalez, Gema
Maria:
Dear Group,
I have worked on
the PPSAI Charter
Questions
Grouping and here
you
have the result.
Best regards,
Gema Campillos
Deputy Director
of Information
Society Services
Secretary of
State for
Telecommunications
and Information
Society
SPAIN
*De:*gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org
[mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org]
*En nombre de
*Mary
Wong *Enviado
el:* miércoles,
29 de enero de
2014 16:57
*Para:*
gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>
*Asunto:* Re:
[Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg]
PPSAI Work Plan
Dear Don, Jim and
everyone,
One of the
various items for
consideration in
developing the
WG's
Work Plan will
involve the
planned timing of
deliverables
relating
to each category
of questions
(however many
there ultimately
are
or whether each
category is
tackled by a
different
sub-team). The
WG may wish to
consider, for
example, whether
certain
questions/categories
need to be
addressed before
others.
Hopefully our
next iteration of
the Mind Map and
proposed
timeline/work
plan will assist
the WG in
discussing Jim's
suggestions,
which reflects
the methodology
used in a couple
of
other WGs (and it
is good to know
that your team
felt the IGO-INGO
WG experience was
productive and
helpful, Jim!).
The work plan is
likely change
over time
depending on the
nature and
outcome of the
WG (or
sub-team)
discussions, and
as Jim notes
certain
categories (e.g.
Main
Issues) may be
more organic than
others.
Should the WG
decide to proceed
via sub-teams,
another thing to
consider would be
ensuring that the
work is spread
evenly across
the WG rather
than have a small
group of people
spread across
various sub-teams
(especially if
the deliverables
from those are
due in short
order!).
I hope these
thoughts are
useful. To assist
with your review
of
Jim's
suggestions, I
attach an updated
version of Jim's
document
which adds the
threshold
question for
Section III
discussed on the
call yesterday
(using Steve's
suggested
wording) and with
a couple
of comments
inserted to help
provide context
to one or two
sub-questions
that Kathy had
asked about.
Thanks and cheers
Mary
Mary Wong
Senior Policy
Director
Internet
Corporation for
Assigned Names &
Numbers (ICANN)
Telephone: +1 603
574 4892
Email:
mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>
<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>
* One World. One
Internet. *
*From: *Don
Blumenthal
<dblumenthal@pir.org
<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>>
*Date:
*Wednesday,
January 29, 2014
9:45 AM
*To: *Jim Bikoff
<jbikoff@sgbdc.com
<mailto:jbikoff@sgbdc.com<mailto:jbikoff@sgbdc.com%20<mailto:jbiko
f
f@sgbdc.com>>>,
"gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org
<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org><mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org%20<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@
icann.org>>"
<gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org
<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.
org%20<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>>>
*Subject: *Re:
[Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg]
PPSAI Work Plan
Jim,
Thanks very
much for all the
work you put in
on this. I am
very
anxious to
see the group's
thoughts on it. I
will reserve mine
for
now except
to note that
reviewing seven
reports each week
is
inducing
cold sweats
already. :)
I will note
up front though
that apart from
process
considerations,
staff support
availability will
have to be part
of
our work
plan decisions.
Best,
Don
*From: *Jim
Bikoff
<jbikoff@sgbdc.com
<mailto:jbikoff@sgbdc.com<mailto:jbikoff@sgbdc.com%20<mailto:jbikoff@sgbdc.com>>>
*Date:
*Tuesday, January
28, 2014 at 6:04
PM
*To: *Don
Blumenthal
<dblumenthal@pir.org
<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>>,
PPSAI
<gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org
<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>>
*Subject:
*PPSAI Work Plan
Dear Don,
As you
indicated, a Work
Plan should help
guide our Group's
efforts over
the upcoming
weeks. We have
some suggestions,
based
on our
positive
experience in the
IGO/INGO PDP
Working Group.
Please give
us the benefit of
your thoughts on
the following
suggested
Work Plan:
1. Summarize
and compile
Working Group
survey
responses
--possibly in an
Excel file,
circulated among
Group
members.
This should be a
task for ICANN
Staff.
2.Based on
Working Group
survey responses,
clarify the
terminology
and issues
in each Group of
the Charter
questions.
Identify
consensus or
near-consensus
responses and
hold Consensus
Call on
these
issues.
3.Create
Working Group
sub-teams to work
on issues by
group: (a)
Registration; (b)
Maintenance; (c)
Contact; (d)
Relay; (e)
Reveal;
(f)
Publication; (g)
Termination.
Note that the
current groupings
of questions
do not include
"Publication" or
"Termination"
categories.
We propose adding
these categories,
which would
include
questions taken
out of other
current
categories, as
identified
in the attached
redline draft.
Note also that
the
remaining
questions in the
Main Issues
group, an
overarching
category,
would be
addressed
organically as a
result of this
proposed
process.
a) Each
sub-team produces
a report, which
is delivered to
Don by
each Friday
or Saturday at
the latest, so it
can be combined
by
staff with
the other
sub-team reports
and discussed at
the
upcoming
Tuesday Working
Group
teleconference.
b) When the
responses to the
survey come in
from the other
constituencies,
ICANN staff
summarizes the
responses for the
Working
Group. Each
sub-team then
analyzes the
constituencies'
and
Working
Group's responses
(including
majority and
minority
views) in
its area, and
delivers the
result to Don by
Friday or
Saturday, so
ICANN staff can
combine it all in
one document,
such
as an Excel
file, for full
Working Group
review.
4. Working
Group holds
Consensus Call
and revises final
Excel file
of responses
to survey
accordingly.
5.Draft
report presenting
(1) Consensus
Proposals (if
any); (2)
Non-Consensus
Proposals w/
Levels of
Support; (3)
Minority Views
w/Levels of
Support.
6. Present
Report for Public
Comment.
This process
will provide a
means to circle
back to the
remaining
Main Issues
questions.
Regards,
Jim
James L.
Bikoff
Silverberg,
Goldman & Bikoff,
LLP
1101 30th
Street, NW
Suite 120
Washington,
DC 20007
Tel:
202-944-3303
Fax:
202-944-3306
jbikoff@sgbdc.com<mailto:jbikoff@sgbdc.com>
<mailto:jbikoff@sgbdc.com>
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--
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wendy@seltzer.org<mailto:wendy@seltzer.org>
+1
617.863.0613 Policy Counsel, World
Wide
Web Consortium (W3C) Fellow,
Berkman Center for Internet &
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Fellow, Yale Law School
Information
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--
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Internet & Society at Harvard
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