I am in agreement with you. Based on years of practical experience, the bad actors far outnumber those who have a legitimate need for anonimity.

                      --bob

On Thu, 6 Feb 2014, Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria wrote:

How far apart we are in this! As a provider offering that option (reveal or abandon), it will attract political dissidents, persecuted religious minorities, whistleblowers... but it must be aware that it is luring into the service many wrongdoers, confidence tricksters, IPR pirate sites, illegal gambling sites, child abusers, malware distributors and the like. I´m not so sure it could claim it is not actively contributing to unlawful activity. But´s that another story.

My point is that the mere possibility of offering that option damps the ability of public authorities to protect public interests and could be against the law. If, as most of you believe, the provider should only process requests coming from a LEA within their jurisdiction, requests aimed at dissidents, religious leaders ... would be stopped there.

I´ve discovered only yesterday that IP providers and hosting services are acting sometimes as proxies for the real hosting service. So, the business thrives and diversifies to the despair of LEAs.

Kind regards,

Gema


-----Mensaje original-----
De: Wendy Seltzer [mailto:wendy@seltzer.com]
Enviado el: miércoles, 05 de febrero de 2014 16:19
Para: Michele Neylon - Blacknight; Volker Greimann; Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria; Tim Ruiz; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org
Asunto: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] PPSAI Work Plan

On 02/05/2014 09:40 AM, Michele Neylon - Blacknight wrote:

Volker

Yeah - that's something I was very conscious of when we discussed this
in the EWG Simply pulling the service might not be enough to protect you as a provider .. and forcing all providers into that kind of situation seemed unreasonable . .

That's not universally true in the law. I'd argue that under US law, there's no liability on a provider of domain registry services who does not encourage or knowingly contribute to unlawful activity. [long discussion of secondary liability elsewhere, including in past discussions of the legal absurdity of 3.7.7.3 ]

So providers should be permitted to take that view.

--Wendy

M
--
Mr Michele Neylon
Blacknight Solutions
Hosting & Colocation, Domains
http://www.blacknight.co/
http://blog.blacknight.com/
http://www.technology.ie
Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
Locall: 1850 929 929
Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
Fax. +353 (0) 1 4811 763
Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon
-------------------------------
Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business
Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland  Company No.: 370845

-----Original Message-----
From: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org
[mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker
Greimann
Sent: Wednesday, February 5, 2014 1:49 PM
To: Wendy Seltzer; Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria; Tim Ruiz;
gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org
Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] PPSAI Work Plan

While I understand this concern from a privacy standpoint, as a service provider this is problematic as one needs to be able to point to the responsible party in case of legal violations in order to avoid culpability and liability.

Volker

Dear Wendy, Tim, Volker and Group,

As regards the last paragraph on Wendy´s message...

I've proposed that registrants be offered the choice between potential reveal and potential termination of registration (that choice could be offered up-front at the time of registration, or at the time of the identification request). For some registrants, such as legitimate whistleblowers whose anonymity for fear of retaliation is more important than the persistence of their domain identifier, this choice may be important.  I hope we're at least leaving the opportunity for a compliant service to offer an "unidentified de-registration" option, even though we don't need to mandate it for all.

I have deep concerns with offering such a service. If the P&P service receives a request to reveal the identity and contact data of the registrant, I doubt it can refuse to relay them on account of the de-registration of the domain name (which should be done through the registrar). If the request comes from an individual or organization holding a legitimate interest, there may be situations in which they would still be entitled to get those data (I´m thinking of a prospective file suit or extrajudicial request for redress). But, let us discuss thoroughly at the appropriate time in the Work Plan.

I believe it should be legitimate to offer a service that has no
possibility of identifying the registrant. Instead, it has other
accountability, namely that the domain name stops resolving upon
receipt of a legitimate complaint. That's the tradeoff I propose,
that there be some situations in which it is by design impossible to
get the identification of the registrant, but it's also impossible to
keep the name in the face of a complaint.

--Wendy

Regards,

Gema


-----Mensaje original-----
De: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org
[mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] En nombre de Tim Ruiz
Enviado el: martes, 04 de febrero de 2014 16:58
Para: Wendy Seltzer; Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org
Asunto: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] PPSAI Work Plan

Wendy, I believe Kathy made sure that was captured in our call today.
________________________________________
From:
gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces
@
icann.org>
<gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounce
s @icann.org>> on behalf of Wendy Seltzer
<wendy@seltzer.com<mailto:wendy@seltzer.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 10:47 AM
To: Volker Greimann;
gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>
Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] PPSAI Work Plan

On 01/30/2014 09:13 AM, Volker Greimann wrote:

Hi Gema,

One note to Main issue 3 as it is proposed: This assumes that the
provider has that kind of access or ability. In many cases, the
privacy service just allows for the provision of its data and acts
as a forwarding service. In the case of the provider affiliated
with us, the provider has one ability only: Request the removal of
its data from the whois. Other privacy services may have even less
influence over the
registration-

So requiring a takedown or disabling/terminating the registrants'
access may not be something that a privacy or proxy service
provider is set up to do, depending on how he is integrated with
the registrar/reseller/registrant.
In the past we have always talked about relay and reveal. These are
the main opptions every provider should have in my opinion.
Anything beyond that may not be feasible and may not even be in the remit of the provider.

If we're considering what should be required of services under a new proposed accreditation regime, then we should be prepared to think of what the system should have, not just what it can currently accommodate.

I've proposed that registrants be offered the choice between potential reveal and potential termination of registration (that choice could be offered up-front at the time of registration, or at the time of the identification request). For some registrants, such as legitimate whistleblowers whose anonymity for fear of retaliation is more important than the persistence of their domain identifier, this choice may be important.  I hope we're at least leaving the opportunity for a compliant service to offer an "unidentified de-registration" option, even though we don't need to mandate it for all.

--Wendy

Volker

Am 30.01.2014 13:09, schrieb Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria:

Dear Group,

I have worked on the PPSAI Charter Questions Grouping and here you
have the result.

Best regards,

Gema Campillos

Deputy Director of Information Society Services

Secretary of State for Telecommunications and Information Society

SPAIN

*De:*gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org
[mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] *En nombre de *Mary
Wong *Enviado el:* miércoles, 29 de enero de 2014 16:57
*Para:*
gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>
*Asunto:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] PPSAI Work Plan

Dear Don, Jim and everyone,

One of the various items for consideration in developing the WG's
Work Plan will involve the planned timing of deliverables relating
to each category of questions (however many there ultimately are
or whether each category is tackled by a different sub-team). The
WG may wish to consider, for example, whether certain
questions/categories need to be addressed before others.

Hopefully our next iteration of the Mind Map and proposed
timeline/work plan will assist the WG in discussing Jim's
suggestions, which reflects the methodology used in a couple of
other WGs (and it is good to know that your team felt the IGO-INGO
WG experience was productive and helpful, Jim!). The work plan is
likely change over time depending on the nature and outcome of the
WG (or
sub-team) discussions, and as Jim notes certain categories (e.g.
Main
Issues) may be more organic than others.

Should the WG decide to proceed via sub-teams, another thing to
consider would be ensuring that the work is spread evenly across
the WG rather than have a small group of people spread across
various sub-teams (especially if the deliverables from those are
due in short order!).

I hope these thoughts are useful. To assist with your review of
Jim's suggestions, I attach an updated version of Jim's document
which adds the threshold question for Section III discussed on the
call yesterday (using Steve's suggested wording) and with a couple
of comments inserted to help provide context to one or two
sub-questions that Kathy had asked about.

Thanks and cheers

Mary

Mary Wong

Senior Policy Director

Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN)

Telephone: +1 603 574 4892

Email: mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>
<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>

* One World. One Internet. *

*From: *Don Blumenthal <dblumenthal@pir.org
<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>>
*Date: *Wednesday, January 29, 2014 9:45 AM
*To: *Jim Bikoff <jbikoff@sgbdc.com
<mailto:jbikoff@sgbdc.com<mailto:jbikoff@sgbdc.com%20<mailto:jbiko
f f@sgbdc.com>>>, "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org
<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org><mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org%20<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>>"
<gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org
<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.
org%20<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>>>
*Subject: *Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] PPSAI Work Plan

     Jim,

     Thanks very much for all the work you put in on this. I am very
     anxious to see the group's thoughts on it. I will reserve mine for
     now except to note that reviewing seven reports each week is
     inducing cold sweats already. :)

     I will note up front though that apart from process
     considerations, staff support availability will have to be part of
     our work plan decisions.

     Best,

     Don

     *From: *Jim Bikoff <jbikoff@sgbdc.com <mailto:jbikoff@sgbdc.com<mailto:jbikoff@sgbdc.com%20<mailto:jbikoff@sgbdc.com>>>
     *Date: *Tuesday, January 28, 2014 at 6:04 PM
     *To: *Don Blumenthal <dblumenthal@pir.org
     <mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>>, PPSAI <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org
     <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>>
     *Subject: *PPSAI Work Plan

     Dear Don,

     As you indicated, a Work Plan should help guide our Group's
     efforts over the upcoming weeks. We have some suggestions, based
     on our positive experience in the IGO/INGO PDP Working Group.

     Please give us the benefit of your thoughts on the following
     suggested Work Plan:

     1. Summarize and compile Working Group survey
     responses --possibly in an Excel file, circulated among Group
     members.  This should be a task for ICANN Staff.

     2.Based on Working Group survey responses, clarify the terminology
     and issues in each Group of the Charter questions. Identify
     consensus or near-consensus responses and hold Consensus Call on
     these issues.

     3.Create Working Group  sub-teams to work on issues by group: (a)
     Registration; (b) Maintenance; (c) Contact; (d) Relay; (e) Reveal;
     (f) Publication; (g) Termination.  Note that the current groupings
     of questions do not include "Publication" or "Termination"
     categories.  We propose adding these categories, which would
     include questions taken out of other current categories, as
     identified in the attached redline draft.  Note also that the
     remaining questions in the Main Issues group, an overarching
     category, would be addressed organically as a result of this
     proposed process.

     a) Each sub-team produces a report, which is delivered to Don by
     each Friday or Saturday at the latest, so it can be combined by
     staff with the other sub-team reports and discussed at the
     upcoming Tuesday Working Group teleconference.

     b) When the responses to the survey come in from the other
     constituencies, ICANN staff summarizes the responses for the
     Working Group. Each sub-team then analyzes the constituencies' and
     Working Group's responses (including majority and minority
     views) in its area, and delivers the result to Don by Friday or
     Saturday, so ICANN staff can combine it all in one document, such
     as an Excel file, for full Working Group review.

     4. Working Group holds Consensus Call and revises final Excel file
     of responses to survey accordingly.

     5.Draft report presenting (1) Consensus Proposals (if any); (2)
     Non-Consensus Proposals w/ Levels of Support; (3) Minority Views
     w/Levels of Support.

     6. Present Report for Public Comment.

     This process will provide a means to circle back to the remaining
     Main Issues questions.

     Regards,

     Jim

     James L. Bikoff

     Silverberg, Goldman & Bikoff, LLP

     1101 30th Street, NW

     Suite 120

     Washington, DC 20007

     Tel: 202-944-3303

     Fax: 202-944-3306

     jbikoff@sgbdc.com<mailto:jbikoff@sgbdc.com>
<mailto:jbikoff@sgbdc.com>



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--
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Berkman Center for Internet & Society at Harvard University Visiting
Fellow, Yale Law School Information Society Project
http://wendy.seltzer.org/ https://www.chillingeffects.org/
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--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

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- Rechtsabteilung -

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Im Oberen Werk 1
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Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

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- Rechtsabteilung -

Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
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Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.

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Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.

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Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
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