Dear All, Please find the MP3 recording for the Privacy and Proxy Services Accreditation Issues PDP Working group call held on Tuesday 6 October 2015 at 14:00 UTC at: http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-ppsa-06oct15-en.mp3 On page: http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar#oct<http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar#sep> The recordings and transcriptions of the calls are posted on the GNSO Master Calendar page: http://gnso.icann.org/calendar/ Attendees: Alex Deacon - IPC Carlton Samuels - At–Large Chris Pelling - RrSG Christian Dawson - ISPCP Darcy Southwell – RrSG Don Blumenthal-RySG Frank Michlick –- Individual Graeme Bunton -– RrSG Griffin Barnett - IPC Iranga Kahangama James Bladel -– RrSG Kathy Kleiman - NCSG Lindsay Hamilton-Reid -– RrSG Osvaldo Novoa – ISPCP Paul McGrady –- IPC Phil Corwin – BC Rudi Vansnick – NPOC Sara Bockey - RrSG Stephanie Perrin – NCSG Steve Metalitz – IPC Susan Kawaguchi - BC Theo Gurts - RrSG Todd Williams - IPC Val Sherman -– IPC Vicky Sheckler Volker Greimann - RrSG Apologies: Sarah Wyld – RrSG Holly Raiche –- ALAC Kiran Malancharuvil – IPC ICANN staff: Glen de St Gery Mary Wong Marika Konings Amy Bivins Gisella Gruber Chantelle Doerksen ** Please let me know if your name has been left off the list ** Mailing list archives: http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg/ Wiki page: https://community.icann.org/x/9iCfAg Thank you. Kind regards, Chantelle ------------------------------- Adobe Connect chat transcript for Tuesday 6 October 2015 Nathalie Peregrine: Dear all, welcome to the PPSAI WG call on the 6th October 2015 Graeme Bunton: Getting some typing sounds. Mary Wong: Please mute your mics if not speaking, thank you! Chris Pelling: afternoon all Theo Geurts: hello all Carlton Samuels: Morning everybody Volker A. Greimann: afternoon Bladel: Good morning! Kathy: Is anyone else hearing a lot of static? Graeme Bunton: Not at the moment, Kathy Kathy: Just me... Chris Pelling: on the voice bridge I get static every now and then Volker A. Greimann: Re: the disclosure framework, it appears one essential element has been forgotten in the drafting: "No disclosure if Requestor has not met the requirements of disclosure, in the opinion of the provider" Graeme Bunton: Nothing from me, Steve. Mary Wong: Yes, this is the document staff received over the weekend and forwarded to the WG on Sunday. Volker A. Greimann: would today be the right time to raise that? Mary Wong: @Volker, we may get to that document later - but LMK if that is a provision that got edited out somewhere? Graeme Bunton: We should hopefully get there as part of item 4 on today's agenda i think. Chris Pelling: ill be leaving at 1700 at Dublin Chris Pelling: just an fyi Volker A. Greimann: @Mary: no, it was not discussed, it was simply forgotten Todd Williams: @Volker: doesn't III(C)(iii) cover what you're describing? Happy to discuss when we get to it. Volker A. Greimann: indeed. Volker A. Greimann: lets do it then Mary Wong: The document is unsync'ed so everyone can scroll as wished. Christian Dawson: Sorry for late arrival. Vicky Sheckler: kathy - as Paul mentioned, the subteam has not had a chance to review together an dthese are issues, not firm firm recommendations Mary Wong: Note that while ICANN may be able to collect the anecdotal data noted here, we won't be able to verify the data or the senders. Stephanie Perrin: You are fading out Steve Volker A. Greimann: Steve, you alternate between normal voice and baraly audible voice Val S.: I hear him fine Chantelle Doerksen: Iranga Kahangama, Lindsey Hamilton-Reid, and Christian Dawson have joined us. Mary Wong: Note #2: The WG can agree to recommend a periodic review, but the details of when, how etc will likely be worked out by the Implementation Reiew Team. Chantelle Doerksen: Osvaldo Novoa has joined. Chantelle Doerksen: Stephanie Perrin has joined. Stephanie Perrin: I dont see that determining data retention periods by jurisdiction is that ambitious. Stephanie Perrin: (for instance) Stephanie Perrin: The isssue of penalties is extremely important, otherwise there are no repercussions for requestors. Bladel: Concerned that we may be creating a loophole, rogue privacy services will restructure as legal advisors in friendly jurisdictions. Chris Pelling: I do not agree with the speaker here Stephanie Perrin: +1 James B Chris Pelling: you are suggesting that they simply can get around this. Chris Pelling: Yet you wish to remove the human rights of the PP service user Chris Pelling: come on...... Stephanie Perrin: Nobody is taking away the right to counsel, we are simply expecting Attorneys to meet the same standards as everyone else. Chris Pelling: the way forward is they are treated the same Chris Pelling: they have to be accredited Chris Pelling: if we have to be accredited Carlton Samuels: @Stephanie: I can't speak for the entire EWG but some of us learned a few things that were just not in our experience, knowledge or on our radar. Chris Pelling: +1 Volker Mary Wong: On the type of vulnerabilities and difficult cases (e.g. asylum) - note that the comments on this point were largely from individuals and groups who were concerned about losing the ability to use P/P services. Mary Wong: So to the extent that the WG's final recommendations do not accomplish that (e.g. robust safeguards against overbroad disclosure) perhaps that is a starting point to resolve the topic? Carlton Samuels: @Volker: +1 I support one set of rules for accessing the service. And the rules must be applied in a non-discriminatory way Stephanie Perrin: This is the poor man's legal service. Carlton Samuels: ..and with malice towards non! Mary Wong: Hopefully my comments help clarify where the concerns (which in the document are reflected as "according to staff") came from. The review we did include all the additional comments that the Save Domain Privacy petition organizers sent in as well. Stephanie Perrin: We cannot create a species of privacy proxy service provider that does not have the same requirements to reveal as the non-lawyer variety. Carlton Samuels: If we think the rules can be mute in malice, we must give it voice to protect all those who need the service. Volker A. Greimann: maybe the solution is not to let lawyers provide this service, i.e. make certain that the rules cover layers when talking about unaccredited service providers Kathy: some in the world think we should not move forward - and passionately so Volker A. Greimann: that would solve the issue of two sets of rules. just ban them from providing thi non-legal service unless they agree to follow the rules Volker A. Greimann: they can still recommend service providers to their customers Philip Corwin: Volker, I think ICANN lacks any power to prevent attorneys from providing such services to their clients. It's not like they need to be accredited Volker A. Greimann: right, but it can force registrars to suspend such registrations under their terms Volker A. Greimann: lawyers=unaccredited service provider= trigger for registrar enforcement of consequences Volker A. Greimann: "you used a lawyer to hide your identity from the whois? He is not accredited? Sorry, under ICANN policies, which you accepted, we must now suspend the domain... Mary Wong: @Steve, from the ICANN perspective, we do not believe either the WG or ICANN can deem any law applicable. Mary Wong: This is not to say we don't agree that this is an important concern, just that we do not believe we have the legal authority to do so. Volker A. Greimann: @Mary: something similar to the choice of law requirements of the UDRP may work Volker A. Greimann: i.e. those who avail themselves of a defined process must agree to certain jurisdictions¥ Mary Wong: @Volker, possibly - but even there it's not a single jurisdiction that is mandated. Bladel: Just thankst o Subteam 4. Mary Wong: And this may be a bit more complicated because there isn't just one single contract involved. Don Blumenthal: I think that jurisdiction is beyond our scope . However, I'll mention that LE is not the only possible source of legal paperwork. Mary Wong: @Steve, noted. Mary Wong: This is the version circulated but including Stephanie's comments from yesterday. Kathy: Steve - I think people might need to review Kathy: Tx to Todd for our work together on this version Philip Corwin: I must drop off to join SO/AC leader call. See you all in Dublin -- safe travel! Rudi Vansnick: have to go too ... SO/AC call Volker A. Greimann: correct Steve, thanks Volker A. Greimann: that is what i think as well, it just should be clearer Kathy: A bit more clarity might be good... Carlton Samuels: Thanks everbody Frank Michlick: See you in Dublin. Thank you. Bladel: Thanks, folks. Safe travels. Sara Bockey: thanks all Carlton Samuels: Safe travels to Dublin Graeme Bunton: Thanks all Chantelle Doerksen: Thanks all! Safe travels to Dublin!