Dear All, Please find the MP3 recording for the Privacy and Proxy Services Accreditation Issues PDP Working group call held on Tuesday 29 April 2014 at 14:00 UTC at: http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-ppsa-20140429-en.mp3 On page: <http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar%23mar> http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar#apr The recordings and transcriptions of the calls are posted on the GNSO Master Calendar page: <http://gnso.icann.org/calendar/> http://gnso.icann.org/calendar/ Attendees: Luc Seufer - RrSG Graeme Bunton - RrSG Tim Ruiz - RrSG Steve Metalitz - IPC Kathy Kleiman - RySG Darcy Southwell - RrSG Libby Baney - BC Justin Macy - BC David Heasley - IPC Michele Neylon - RrSG Jennifer Standiford - RrSG James Bladel - RrSG Volker Greimann - RrSG Tobias Sattler - RrSG Phil Marano - IPC Christian Dawson - ISPCP Griffin Barnett - IPC Valeriya Sherman - IPC Don Moody - IPC Alex Deacon - IPC Kiran Malancharuvil - IPC Laura Jedeed - BC Sarah Wyld - RrSG Apologies: Gema Campillos - GAC Osvaldo Novoa - ISPCP Don Blumenthal - RySG Roy Balleste - NCUC ICANN staff: Marika Konings Mary Wong Amy Bivins Nathalie Peregrine ** Please let me know if your name has been left off the list ** Mailing list archives: <http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg/> http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg/ Wiki page: <https://community.icann.org/x/9iCfAg> https://community.icann.org/x/9iCfAg Thank you. Kind regards, Nathalie ------------------------------- Adobe Connect chat transcript for Tuesday 29 April 2014: Marika Konings:Welcome to the PPSAI WG meeting of 29 April 2014 Sarah Wyld - Aplus.net:Good morning. Mary Wong:Hello Sarah and everyone Graeme Bunton:Good morning all Nathalie Peregrine:Jennifer Standiford has joined the call Kathy K:Steve, I am still coming onto the phone... but what is the timeline for the subgroup on the technical subgroup? Nathalie Peregrine:tobias Sattler has joined the call Tobias Sattler:Sorry, for being late Mary Wong:@Kathy, in response to your email request on the list, we've included the Threshojld Question for Category C in the Notes pod (on the right side of your screen). Hope this helps! Bladel:Or maybe we decided to have the group, but were still working on its mission? Luc Seufer:So first we assemble the avengers and then we find them a mission? Mary Wong:@James, I don't believe the WG agreed to it definitively, though we got a few volunteers should one be formed. Nathalie Peregrine:Kiran Malancharuvil has joined the audio bridge Mary Wong:The wording on the preliminary conclusion in this part is based on the WG discussion and AC chat from last week. Bladel:I'll defer to Kathy on this point. Bladel:Her memory is better than mine. :) Michele Neylon:more IRTPs? Michele Neylon:NO NO Michele Neylon:NO NO Michele Neylon::) Luc Seufer:not sure you'll get an athos with that behavior :-p Luc Seufer:ethos rather Mary Wong:Link to AC chat from last week: https://community.icann.org/x/kzvRAg Mary Wong:Excerpt: steve metalitz:I am open to making this an accreditation requirement IF there is a practical way to do it. The purpose of the subgroup would be to answer whether it is practical. steve metalitz:"This" = enabling transfer without losing p/p protection. Kathy K:Agree with Steve! Paul McGrady:Agree with Steve and Kathy Amr Elsadr:Also agree with Steve. Val Sherman:+1 @Steve Kathy K:+1 James - ID the hurdles, suggest Kathy K:ways forward, IRTP out of bounds Nathalie Peregrine:Val Shearman has joined the call Bladel:(dont say charter dont say charter). Bladel::) Kathy K:Sure Bladel:Yes Kathy K:agreed Nathalie Peregrine:Phil Marano has joined the call Nathalie Peregrine:Volker Greimann has joined the call Bladel:Private Transfer? Michele Neylon:+1 to James Michele Neylon:audio gone for me Kathy K:It was the IPC that provided us with the legitimate purposes for proxy/privacy services for commercial entities Michele Neylon:thoguh that could be my wifi Libby Baney:+1 to Kiran Bladel:Most major banks also use these services. Michele Neylon:conflating p/p with fake pharma is like yelling "think of the children" Justin Macy:+1 Kiran Michele Neylon:and is a massive red herring Kiran Malancharuvil:and what's wrong with thinking of the children Michele? Kathy K:That's what I remember too - that the banks used proxy/privacy Michele Neylon:Kiran - seriously? Kiran Malancharuvil:Yes seriously. There are a LOT of people who die from counterfeit pharma sales online every year. Ignoring it is kind of despicable. Michele Neylon:It's got nothing to do with P/P Michele Neylon:+1 to Tim Kiran Malancharuvil:haha, okay Michele. Luc Seufer:Wow since when a domain name can host content? Luc Seufer:+1 Tim Michele Neylon:+1 to Tim again Michele Neylon:my mother doesn't know what whois is Michele Neylon:why the hell should she? Bladel:In fact, we conducted an experiment on this in the WHOIS review team. Most usesr go to the 'About Us" page, not much awareness of WHOIS. Graeme Bunton:no ones mother knows what WHOS is Kiran Malancharuvil:People in the consumer protection game use WHOIS, is your mother in consumer protection? Luc Seufer:We should make a t-shirt out of that one Kiran Malancharuvil:I'm a mother and I know what WHOIS is. Sarah Wyld - Aplus.net:My mother knows how to do a whois Michele Neylon:Luc - oh :) Kiran Malancharuvil:Don't be disrespectful of women by making these stupid comments about "mothers." Sarah Wyld - Aplus.net:+1 Kiran Kathy K:lost connection... please move forward with queue Nathalie Peregrine:Kathy, you're still showing as connected on the bdirge Nathalie Peregrine:would you like a dial ouy?> Luc Seufer:I can't speak for the rest of the world but in the EU, entities willing to do businesses have the obligation to display their contact details on their website, not in the whois Libby Baney:Isn't it easier to lie on the face of a website (e.g. in the About Us) than it is supposed to be in the WHOIS data? Kiran Malancharuvil:Yes Libby. Whois, with it's new verification requirements would be much safer Luc Seufer:which is based on policy Luc Seufer:the website req. is based on legal obligation. Hoster will have to suspend their services if the details are inacurrate. (speaking of the EU) Kiran Malancharuvil:So is that content regulation then Luc? Kathy K:still on hold Tim Ruiz:Agree with Steve about not making it a requirement to accept commercial customers as a p/p provider. Luc Seufer:@Kiran , yes sort of. Libby Baney:@kiran, yes - thanks. So transparent WHOIS data for commercial activities would then be another data point for consumers to check, possiblly in additon to the About Us info on the face of a website Kiran Malancharuvil:That seems more complicated than verifying Whois data Kiran Malancharuvil:All of the questions James is raising are worth discussion Mary Wong:Since the Privacy & Proxy Abuse Study was referenced, just a note that the researchers found a higher-than-average rate of P/P use for illegal activities, but that among legal users there was also a fairly high percentage of use among several such type of legal entities (viz. banks and adult websites). Graeme Bunton:+1 James Kathy K:back online Mary Wong:Note also that the researchers did not distinguish btwn commercial or non-commercial, entity or individual users - the legal uses were chosen to "mirror" the illegal categories of activities they were studying. Libby Baney:A number of issues/questions were just raised; I hope we get to address each in turn Tim Ruiz:What would we be trying to accomplish by denying "commercial" users or creating other types of categories? Given the difficulties it would create with verifying who is and isn't a particular category, enforcement, etc., doesn't it make more sense to discuss what we want from it and then see if there isn't a better way to get there, such as in reveal? Kiran Malancharuvil:I'm not sure that B2B providers are expempt from business licensing, which is public . Michele Neylon:FYI - the US is NOT the World Michele Neylon:#justsaying Graeme Bunton:good points Kathy Libby Baney:@Kathy - seems we could make the distinction between comm/non-comm activities, not "entities" -- for the reasons you just note re e.g. 501(c)(3) Kiran Malancharuvil:There are licensing requirements in the EU Tim Ruiz:@Michele +1 Michele Neylon:Kiran - not in all countries and not for all types of business Michele Neylon:please don't preach to me about my own jurisdiction :) Kiran Malancharuvil:I am well aware. I have two of my higher degrees from the EU. Kiran Malancharuvil:Don't assume that because I'm american I have a centric approach. Kathy K:Marketplace of ideas vs. marketplace of goods and services - many organizations, foundations and groups are dedicated to ideas, not goods and services Bladel:Lets do thist. Michele Neylon:rat holes are great Bladel:First accredited PP servcie will come online in 2020. Michele Neylon:But I don't get paid to do PDPs Michele Neylon:so I'll have left by then Kathy K:Why - good question, Tim Bladel:I vote for the rat hole. Status quo will be maintained until I retire. Bladel::) Michele Neylon:+1 James :) Luc Seufer:hum.. how long do we have? 5+ years? :-P Libby Baney:@Tim - good point. I'd say this issue is highly important for us to strike the right balance between transparency and privacy Volker Greimann:can we do a rabbit hole instead? they are bigger Tim Ruiz:You call the rat hole rhetoric, and make the rat hole even bigger with your comment. Kathy K:I think we should discuss the threshold question at the beginnin gof next week - with a larger group Tim Ruiz:Agree with Kathy Bladel:+1 Kathy. Tim Ruiz:@volker, rabbit hole it is. I like the association with Wonderland. ;-) Luc Seufer:2 hour pres. should be sufficient Kathy K:Prefer not to move ahead -- talk next meeting? Tim Ruiz:I would prefer to dicuss this next week again first. Tim Ruiz:@Kathy, Agree. Kiran Malancharuvil:THanks Darcy Southwell:Thanks Luc Seufer:Thanks Phil Marano:Thank you!