Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] definitions of relay, publication, reveal
That doesn't oblige the reveal and would only apply to proxy services not privacy services If the service assumes the liability they've no obligation to reveal, so I ask again Gema - where are you getting the obligation from? Which clause in the RAA? FYI - the only RAA version we should care about is the 2013 as this entire thing hinges on it and not any of the previous version -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting & Colocation, Domains http://www.blacknight.co/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://www.technology.ie Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Locall: 1850 929 929 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Fax. +353 (0) 1 4811 763 Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845 From: Marika Konings [mailto:marika.konings@icann.org] Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 2:15 PM To: Michele Neylon - Blacknight; Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria Cc: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org Subject: Re: definitions of relay, publication, reveal Michele, I found this language in the 2001 RAA: 3.7.7.3 Any Registered Name Holder that intends to license use of a domain name to a third party is nonetheless the Registered Name Holder of record and is responsible for providing its own full contact information and for providing and updating accurate technical and administrative contact information adequate to facilitate timely resolution of any problems that arise in connection with the Registered Name. A Registered Name Holder licensing use of a Registered Name according to this provision shall accept liability for harm caused by wrongful use of the Registered Name, unless it promptly discloses the identity of the licensee to a party providing the Registered Name Holder reasonable evidence of actionable harm. And in the 2009 RAA: 3.7.7.3 Any Registered Name Holder that intends to license use of a domain name to a third party is nonetheless the Registered Name Holder of record and is responsible for providing its own full contact information and for providing and updating accurate technical and administrative contact information adequate to facilitate timely resolution of any problems that arise in connection with the Registered Name. A Registered Name Holder licensing use of a Registered Name according to this provision shall accept liability for harm caused by wrongful use of the Registered Name, unless it promptly discloses the current contact information provided by the licensee and the identity of the licensee to a party providing the Registered Name Holder reasonable evidence of actionable harm. And the 2013 RAA: 3.7.7.3 Any Registered Name Holder that intends to license use of a domain name to a third party is nonetheless the Registered Name Holder of record and is responsible for providing its own full contact information and for providing and updating accurate technical and administrative contact information adequate to facilitate timely resolution of any problems that arise in connection with the Registered Name. A Registered Name Holder licensing use of a Registered Name according to this provision shall accept liability for harm caused by wrongful use of the Registered Name, unless it discloses the current contact information provided by the licensee and the identity of the licensee within seven (7) days to a party providing the Registered Name Holder reasonable evidence of actionable harm. Presumably that is the provision referenced? Marika From: Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com<mailto:michele@blacknight.com>> Date: Tuesday 11 February 2014 15:06 To: Marika Konings <marika.konings@icann.org<mailto:marika.konings@icann.org>>, "Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria" <GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es<mailto:GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es>> Cc: "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: RE: definitions of relay, publication, reveal So it's not in the RAA then is it? Regards Michele -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting & Colocation, Domains http://www.blacknight.co/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://www.technology.ie Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Locall: 1850 929 929 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Fax. +353 (0) 1 4811 763 Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845 From: Marika Konings [mailto:marika.konings@icann.org] Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 1:59 PM To: Michele Neylon - Blacknight; Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria Cc: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: definitions of relay, publication, reveal Michele, the reference comes from a document that was produced in February 2009, so presumably it is referring to an earlier version of the RAA. Best regards, Marika From: Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com<mailto:michele@blacknight.com>> Date: Tuesday 11 February 2014 14:56 To: "Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria" <GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es<mailto:GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es>>, Marika Konings <marika.konings@icann.org<mailto:marika.konings@icann.org>> Cc: "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: RE: definitions of relay, publication, reveal Gema Which clause in the RAA stipulates this? I'm looking at the 2013 RAA's proxy / privacy specification and I cannot see this. Regards Michele -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting & Colocation, Domains http://www.blacknight.co/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://www.technology.ie Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Locall: 1850 929 929 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Fax. +353 (0) 1 4811 763 Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845 From:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 12:35 PM To: Marika Konings Cc: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] definitions of relay, publication, reveal Yes, I´ve seen this, Marika, but it only defines "relay" and in a very confusing way, mixing it with "reveal". 5) Relay Information Requests See study # 20 for this term's use in context. Problems arise from time to time in connection with registered names. Allegations of actionable harm require copyright and trademark owners, law enforcement officials and others to be able to operate through a proxy or privacy service provider to contact the domain name user. Potential "harms" could include suspected fraud, intellectual property rights infringement, or the infringement of other civil or criminal laws. To support the relay of information requests, service providers must have reliable and timely means of communicating with their domain licensees. The ICANN Registrar Accreditation Agreement stipulates that the proxy registrant reveal the identity of the domain licensee upon reasonable evidence of actionable harm or risk liability for resulting harm. So, I insist definitions of "relay", "reveal" and "publication" are included in the "Grouping of Charter Questions" paper or else, referenced to a document that provides its meaning in the context of Proxy-Privacy Services. Thank you again and best regards, Gema De: Marika Konings [mailto:marika.konings@icann.org] Enviado el: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 13:16 Para: Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria Asunto: Re: definitions of relay, publication, reveal Dear Gema, I think that refers to the attached document which is also posted on the WG wiki (background documents - see https://community.icann.org/x/XSWfAg). Best regards, Marika From: "<Campillos Gonzalez>", Gema Maria <GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es<mailto:GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es>> Date: Tuesday 11 February 2014 12:50 To: Marika Konings <marika.konings@icann.org<mailto:marika.konings@icann.org>> Subject: definitions of relay, publication, reveal Dear Marika, Where exactly can I find the definitions for the terms in the heading? In footnote 7 of the "Grouping of Charter Questions" paper, there is a reference to the "Terms of Reference for GNSO Whois Studies (refer to WG Background Documents).", but I am not able to find that document. Could you please point me to the paper I have to look up? Thank you so much, Gema
Please note that the language that Gema provided is a quote from the attached document which was prepared by a GNSO DT in 2009. You may need to go back to that DT to determine how that conclusion was drawn based on the RAA provisions. Best regards, Marika From: Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com> Date: Tuesday 11 February 2014 15:19 To: Marika Konings <marika.konings@icann.org>, "Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria" <GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es> Cc: "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: RE: definitions of relay, publication, reveal That doesn¹t oblige the reveal and would only apply to proxy services not privacy services If the service assumes the liability theyve no obligation to reveal, so I ask again Gema where are you getting the obligation from? Which clause in the RAA? FYI the only RAA version we should care about is the 2013 as this entire thing hinges on it and not any of the previous version -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting & Colocation, Domains http://www.blacknight.co/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://www.technology.ie Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Locall: 1850 929 929 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Fax. +353 (0) 1 4811 763 Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845 From: Marika Konings [mailto:marika.konings@icann.org] Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 2:15 PM To: Michele Neylon - Blacknight; Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria Cc: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org Subject: Re: definitions of relay, publication, reveal Michele, I found this language in the 2001 RAA: 3.7.7.3 Any Registered Name Holder that intends to license use of a domain name to a third party is nonetheless the Registered Name Holder of record and is responsible for providing its own full contact information and for providing and updating accurate technical and administrative contact information adequate to facilitate timely resolution of any problems that arise in connection with the Registered Name. A Registered Name Holder licensing use of a Registered Name according to this provision shall accept liability for harm caused by wrongful use of the Registered Name, unless it promptly discloses the identity of the licensee to a party providing the Registered Name Holder reasonable evidence of actionable harm. And in the 2009 RAA: 3.7.7.3 Any Registered Name Holder that intends to license use of a domain name to a third party is nonetheless the Registered Name Holder of record and is responsible for providing its own full contact information and for providing and updating accurate technical and administrative contact information adequate to facilitate timely resolution of any problems that arise in connection with the Registered Name. A Registered Name Holder licensing use of a Registered Name according to this provision shall accept liability for harm caused by wrongful use of the Registered Name, unless it promptly discloses the current contact information provided by the licensee and the identity of the licensee to a party providing the Registered Name Holder reasonable evidence of actionable harm. And the 2013 RAA: 3.7.7.3 Any Registered Name Holder that intends to license use of a domain name to a third party is nonetheless the Registered Name Holder of record and is responsible for providing its own full contact information and for providing and updating accurate technical and administrative contact information adequate to facilitate timely resolution of any problems that arise in connection with the Registered Name. A Registered Name Holder licensing use of a Registered Name according to this provision shall accept liability for harm caused by wrongful use of the Registered Name, unless it discloses the current contact information provided by the licensee and the identity of the licensee within seven (7) days to a party providing the Registered Name Holder reasonable evidence of actionable harm. Presumably that is the provision referenced? Marika From: Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com> Date: Tuesday 11 February 2014 15:06 To: Marika Konings <marika.konings@icann.org>, "Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria" <GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es> Cc: "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: RE: definitions of relay, publication, reveal So it¹s not in the RAA then is it? Regards Michele -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting & Colocation, Domains http://www.blacknight.co/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://www.technology.ie Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Locall: 1850 929 929 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Fax. +353 (0) 1 4811 763 Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845 From: Marika Konings [mailto:marika.konings@icann.org] Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 1:59 PM To: Michele Neylon - Blacknight; Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria Cc: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org Subject: Re: definitions of relay, publication, reveal Michele, the reference comes from a document that was produced in February 2009, so presumably it is referring to an earlier version of the RAA. Best regards, Marika From: Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com> Date: Tuesday 11 February 2014 14:56 To: "Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria" <GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es>, Marika Konings <marika.konings@icann.org> Cc: "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: RE: definitions of relay, publication, reveal Gema Which clause in the RAA stipulates this? I¹m looking at the 2013 RAA¹s proxy / privacy specification and I cannot see this. Regards Michele -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting & Colocation, Domains http://www.blacknight.co/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://www.technology.ie Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Locall: 1850 929 929 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Fax. +353 (0) 1 4811 763 Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845 From:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 12:35 PM To: Marika Konings Cc: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] definitions of relay, publication, reveal Yes, I´ve seen this, Marika, but it only defines ³relay² and in a very confusing way, mixing it with ³reveal². 5) Relay Information Requests See study # 20 for this term¹s use in context. Problems arise from time to time in connection with registered names. Allegations of actionable harm require copyright and trademark owners, law enforcement officials and others to be able to operate through a proxy or privacy service provider to contact the domain name user. Potential ³harms² could include suspected fraud, intellectual property rights infringement, or the infringement of other civil or criminal laws. To support the relay of information requests, service providers must have reliable and timely means of communicating with their domain licensees. The ICANN Registrar Accreditation Agreement stipulates that the proxy registrant reveal the identity of the domain licensee upon reasonable evidence of actionable harm or risk liability for resulting harm. So, I insist definitions of ³relay², ³reveal² and ³publication² are included in the ³Grouping of Charter Questions² paper or else, referenced to a document that provides its meaning in the context of Proxy-Privacy Services. Thank you again and best regards, Gema De: Marika Konings [mailto:marika.konings@icann.org] Enviado el: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 13:16 Para: Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria Asunto: Re: definitions of relay, publication, reveal Dear Gema, I think that refers to the attached document which is also posted on the WG wiki (background documents see https://community.icann.org/x/XSWfAg). Best regards, Marika From: "<Campillos Gonzalez>", Gema Maria <GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es> Date: Tuesday 11 February 2014 12:50 To: Marika Konings <marika.konings@icann.org> Subject: definitions of relay, publication, reveal Dear Marika, Where exactly can I find the definitions for the terms in the heading? In footnote 7 of the ³Grouping of Charter Questions² paper, there is a reference to the ³Terms of Reference for GNSO Whois Studies (refer to WG Background Documents).², but I am not able to find that document. Could you please point me to the paper I have to look up? Thank you so much, Gema
I am not sure why Michele is so wound up about this, but the statement that Gema quoted (she did not create it) seems to be a reasonable paraphrase of a provision that has been in the RAA since its inception (with minor changes in the 2009 and 2013 versions). The problem I believe she was attempting to flag is that this statement has to do with "reveal" and does not have any reference to "relay." I think the definition of "relay" (taking out the sentence in question) is reasonably clear, but if Gema or others have suggestions for clarifying it, they should certainly bring them forward. Steve Metalitz From: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Marika Konings Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 9:25 AM To: Michele Neylon - Blacknight; Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria Cc: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] definitions of relay, publication, reveal Please note that the language that Gema provided is a quote from the attached document which was prepared by a GNSO DT in 2009. You may need to go back to that DT to determine how that conclusion was drawn based on the RAA provisions. Best regards, Marika From: Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com<mailto:michele@blacknight.com>> Date: Tuesday 11 February 2014 15:19 To: Marika Konings <marika.konings@icann.org<mailto:marika.konings@icann.org>>, "Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria" <GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es<mailto:GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es>> Cc: "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: RE: definitions of relay, publication, reveal That doesn't oblige the reveal and would only apply to proxy services not privacy services If the service assumes the liability they've no obligation to reveal, so I ask again Gema - where are you getting the obligation from? Which clause in the RAA? FYI - the only RAA version we should care about is the 2013 as this entire thing hinges on it and not any of the previous version -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting & Colocation, Domains http://www.blacknight.co/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://www.technology.ie Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Locall: 1850 929 929 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Fax. +353 (0) 1 4811 763 Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845 From: Marika Konings [mailto:marika.konings@icann.org] Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 2:15 PM To: Michele Neylon - Blacknight; Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria Cc: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: definitions of relay, publication, reveal Michele, I found this language in the 2001 RAA: 3.7.7.3 Any Registered Name Holder that intends to license use of a domain name to a third party is nonetheless the Registered Name Holder of record and is responsible for providing its own full contact information and for providing and updating accurate technical and administrative contact information adequate to facilitate timely resolution of any problems that arise in connection with the Registered Name. A Registered Name Holder licensing use of a Registered Name according to this provision shall accept liability for harm caused by wrongful use of the Registered Name, unless it promptly discloses the identity of the licensee to a party providing the Registered Name Holder reasonable evidence of actionable harm. And in the 2009 RAA: 3.7.7.3 Any Registered Name Holder that intends to license use of a domain name to a third party is nonetheless the Registered Name Holder of record and is responsible for providing its own full contact information and for providing and updating accurate technical and administrative contact information adequate to facilitate timely resolution of any problems that arise in connection with the Registered Name. A Registered Name Holder licensing use of a Registered Name according to this provision shall accept liability for harm caused by wrongful use of the Registered Name, unless it promptly discloses the current contact information provided by the licensee and the identity of the licensee to a party providing the Registered Name Holder reasonable evidence of actionable harm. And the 2013 RAA: 3.7.7.3 Any Registered Name Holder that intends to license use of a domain name to a third party is nonetheless the Registered Name Holder of record and is responsible for providing its own full contact information and for providing and updating accurate technical and administrative contact information adequate to facilitate timely resolution of any problems that arise in connection with the Registered Name. A Registered Name Holder licensing use of a Registered Name according to this provision shall accept liability for harm caused by wrongful use of the Registered Name, unless it discloses the current contact information provided by the licensee and the identity of the licensee within seven (7) days to a party providing the Registered Name Holder reasonable evidence of actionable harm. Presumably that is the provision referenced? Marika From: Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com<mailto:michele@blacknight.com>> Date: Tuesday 11 February 2014 15:06 To: Marika Konings <marika.konings@icann.org<mailto:marika.konings@icann.org>>, "Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria" <GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es<mailto:GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es>> Cc: "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: RE: definitions of relay, publication, reveal So it's not in the RAA then is it? Regards Michele -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting & Colocation, Domains http://www.blacknight.co/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://www.technology.ie Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Locall: 1850 929 929 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Fax. +353 (0) 1 4811 763 Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845 From: Marika Konings [mailto:marika.konings@icann.org] Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 1:59 PM To: Michele Neylon - Blacknight; Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria Cc: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: definitions of relay, publication, reveal Michele, the reference comes from a document that was produced in February 2009, so presumably it is referring to an earlier version of the RAA. Best regards, Marika From: Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com<mailto:michele@blacknight.com>> Date: Tuesday 11 February 2014 14:56 To: "Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria" <GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es<mailto:GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es>>, Marika Konings <marika.konings@icann.org<mailto:marika.konings@icann.org>> Cc: "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: RE: definitions of relay, publication, reveal Gema Which clause in the RAA stipulates this? I'm looking at the 2013 RAA's proxy / privacy specification and I cannot see this. Regards Michele -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting & Colocation, Domains http://www.blacknight.co/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://www.technology.ie Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Locall: 1850 929 929 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Fax. +353 (0) 1 4811 763 Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845 From:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 12:35 PM To: Marika Konings Cc: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] definitions of relay, publication, reveal Yes, I´ve seen this, Marika, but it only defines "relay" and in a very confusing way, mixing it with "reveal". 5) Relay Information Requests See study # 20 for this term's use in context. Problems arise from time to time in connection with registered names. Allegations of actionable harm require copyright and trademark owners, law enforcement officials and others to be able to operate through a proxy or privacy service provider to contact the domain name user. Potential "harms" could include suspected fraud, intellectual property rights infringement, or the infringement of other civil or criminal laws. To support the relay of information requests, service providers must have reliable and timely means of communicating with their domain licensees. The ICANN Registrar Accreditation Agreement stipulates that the proxy registrant reveal the identity of the domain licensee upon reasonable evidence of actionable harm or risk liability for resulting harm. So, I insist definitions of "relay", "reveal" and "publication" are included in the "Grouping of Charter Questions" paper or else, referenced to a document that provides its meaning in the context of Proxy-Privacy Services. Thank you again and best regards, Gema De: Marika Konings [mailto:marika.konings@icann.org] Enviado el: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 13:16 Para: Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria Asunto: Re: definitions of relay, publication, reveal Dear Gema, I think that refers to the attached document which is also posted on the WG wiki (background documents - see https://community.icann.org/x/XSWfAg). Best regards, Marika From: "<Campillos Gonzalez>", Gema Maria <GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es<mailto:GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es>> Date: Tuesday 11 February 2014 12:50 To: Marika Konings <marika.konings@icann.org<mailto:marika.konings@icann.org>> Subject: definitions of relay, publication, reveal Dear Marika, Where exactly can I find the definitions for the terms in the heading? In footnote 7 of the "Grouping of Charter Questions" paper, there is a reference to the "Terms of Reference for GNSO Whois Studies (refer to WG Background Documents).", but I am not able to find that document. Could you please point me to the paper I have to look up? Thank you so much, Gema
Hi All, Sorry not to be on the call, but I don't think that Gema's statement is a paraphrase of the RAA, particularly the idea of revealing the identity of the domain licensee upon reasonable evidence of actionable harm or risk liability for resulting harm. Terms of reference for a study are hardly RAA language (Note: I worked on many of the study's terms of reference -- but not on the RAA). Best, Kathy :
I am not sure why Michele is so wound up about this, but the statement that Gema quoted (she did not create it) seems to be a reasonable paraphrase of a provision that has been in the RAA since its inception (with minor changes in the 2009 and 2013 versions).
The problem I believe she was attempting to flag is that this statement has to do with "reveal" and does not have any reference to "relay."
I think the definition of "relay" (taking out the sentence in question) is reasonably clear, but if Gema or others have suggesttions for clarifying it, they should certainly bring them forward.
Steve Metalitz
*From:*gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Marika Konings *Sent:* Tuesday, February 11, 2014 9:25 AM *To:* Michele Neylon - Blacknight; Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria *Cc:* gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] definitions of relay, publication, reveal
Please note that the language that Gema provided is a quote from the attached document which was prepared by a GNSO DT in 2009. You may need to go back to that DT to determine how that conclusion was drawn based on the RAA provisions.
Best regards,
Marika
*From: *Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com <mailto:michele@blacknight.com>> *Date: *Tuesday 11 February 2014 15:19 *To: *Marika Konings <marika.konings@icann.org <mailto:marika.konings@icann.org>>, "Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria" <GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es <mailto:GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es>> *Cc: *"gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> *Subject: *RE: definitions of relay, publication, reveal
That doesn't oblige the reveal and would only apply to proxy services not privacy services
If the service assumes the liability they've no obligation to reveal, so I ask again Gema -- where are you getting the obligation from? Which clause in the RAA?
FYI -- the only RAA version we should care about is the 2013 as this entire thing hinges on it and not any of the previous version
--
Mr Michele Neylon
Blacknight Solutions
Hosting & Colocation, Domains
Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072
Locall: 1850 929 929
Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
Fax. +353 (0) 1 4811 763
Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon
-------------------------------
Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty
Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845
*From:*Marika Konings [mailto:marika.konings@icann.org] *Sent:* Tuesday, February 11, 2014 2:15 PM *To:* Michele Neylon - Blacknight; Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria *Cc:* gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: definitions of relay, publication, reveal
Michele, I found this language in the 2001 RAA:
3.7.7.3 Any Registered Name Holder that intends to license use of a domain name to a third party is nonetheless the Registered Name Holder of record and is responsible for providing its own full contact information and for providing and updating accurate technical and administrative contact information adequate to facilitate timely resolution of any problems that arise in connection with the Registered Name. A Registered Name Holder licensing use of a Registered Name according to this provision shall accept liability for harm caused by wrongful use of the Registered Name, unless it promptly discloses the identity of the licensee to a party providing the Registered Name Holder reasonable evidence of actionable harm.
And in the 2009 RAA:
3.7.7.3 Any Registered Name Holder that intends to license use of a domain name to a third party is nonetheless the Registered Name Holder of record and is responsible for providing its own full contact information and for providing and updating accurate technical and administrative contact information adequate to facilitate timely resolution of any problems that arise in connection with the Registered Name. A Registered Name Holder licensing use of a Registered Name according to this provision shall accept liability for harm caused by wrongful use of the Registered Name, unless it promptly discloses the current contact information provided by the licensee and the identity of the licensee to a party providing the Registered Name Holder reasonable evidence of actionable harm.
And the 2013 RAA:
3.7.7.3 Any Registered Name Holder that intends to license use of a domain name to a third party is nonetheless the Registered Name Holder of record and is responsible for providing its own full contact information and for providing and updating accurate technical and administrative contact information adequate to facilitate timely resolution of any problems that arise in connection with the Registered Name. A Registered Name Holder licensing use of a Registered Name according to this provision shall accept liability for harm caused by wrongful use of the Registered Name, unless it discloses the current contact information provided by the licensee and the identity of the licensee within seven (7) days to a party providing the Registered Name Holder reasonable evidence of actionable harm.
Presumably that is the provision referenced?
Marika
*From: *Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com <mailto:michele@blacknight.com>> *Date: *Tuesday 11 February 2014 15:06 *To: *Marika Konings <marika.konings@icann.org <mailto:marika.konings@icann.org>>, "Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria" <GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es <mailto:GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es>> *Cc: *"gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> *Subject: *RE: definitions of relay, publication, reveal
So it's not in the RAA then is it?
Regards
Michele
--
Mr Michele Neylon
Blacknight Solutions
Hosting & Colocation, Domains
Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072
Locall: 1850 929 929
Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
Fax. +353 (0) 1 4811 763
Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon
-------------------------------
Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty
Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845
*From:*Marika Konings [mailto:marika.konings@icann.org] *Sent:* Tuesday, February 11, 2014 1:59 PM *To:* Michele Neylon - Blacknight; Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria *Cc:* gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: definitions of relay, publication, reveal
Michele, the reference comes from a document that was produced in February 2009, so presumably it is referring to an earlier version of the RAA.
Best regards,
Marika
*From: *Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com <mailto:michele@blacknight.com>> *Date: *Tuesday 11 February 2014 14:56 *To: *"Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria" <GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es <mailto:GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es>>, Marika Konings <marika.konings@icann.org <mailto:marika.konings@icann.org>> *Cc: *"gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> *Subject: *RE: definitions of relay, publication, reveal
Gema
Which clause in the RAA stipulates this?
I'm looking at the 2013 RAA's proxy / privacy specification and I cannot see this.
Regards
Michele
--
Mr Michele Neylon
Blacknight Solutions
Hosting & Colocation, Domains
Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072
Locall: 1850 929 929
Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
Fax. +353 (0) 1 4811 763
Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon
-------------------------------
Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty
Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845
*From:*gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria *Sent:* Tuesday, February 11, 2014 12:35 PM *To:* Marika Konings *Cc:* gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] definitions of relay, publication, reveal
Yes, I´ve seen this, Marika, but it only defines "relay" and in a very confusing way, mixing it with "reveal".
5) Relay Information Requests
See study # 20 for this term's use in context.
Problems arise from time to time in connection with registered names. Allegations of
actionable harm require copyright and trademark owners, law enforcement officials and
others to be able to operate through a proxy or privacy service provider to contact the
domain name user. Potential "harms" could include suspected fraud, intellectual property
rights infringement, or the infringement of other civil or criminal laws. To support the
relay of information requests, service providers must have reliable and timely means of
communicating with their domain licensees.*The ICANN Registrar Accreditation*
*Agreement stipulates that the proxy registrant reveal the identity of the domain licensee*
*upon reasonable evidence of actionable harm or risk liability for resulting harm.*
So, I insist definitions of "relay", "reveal" and "publication" are included in the "Grouping of Charter Questions" paper or else, referenced to a document that provides its meaning in the context of Proxy-Privacy Services.
Thank you again and best regards,
Gema
*De:*Marika Konings [mailto:marika.konings@icann.org] *Enviado el:* martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 13:16 *Para:* Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria *Asunto:* Re: definitions of relay, publication, reveal
Dear Gema,
I think that refers to the attached document which is also posted on the WG wiki (background documents -- see https://community.icann.org/x/XSWfAg).
Best regards,
Marika
*From: *"<Campillos Gonzalez>", Gema Maria <GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es <mailto:GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es>> *Date: *Tuesday 11 February 2014 12:50 *To: *Marika Konings <marika.konings@icann.org <mailto:marika.konings@icann.org>> *Subject: *definitions of relay, publication, reveal
Dear Marika,
Where exactly can I find the definitions for the terms in the heading? In footnote 7 of the "Grouping of Charter Questions" paper, there is a reference to the "Terms of Reference for GNSO Whois Studies (refer to WG Background Documents).", but I am not able to find that document. Could you please point me to the paper I have to look up?
Thank you so much,
Gema
_______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
A question re. the last couple of minutes on today's call; I'd not noticed till then that Gema suggested deleting "if requestor is law enforcement versus private party" from Section V, question e. I do not support dropping this rather important topic from our work at this late stage in the work plan discussions. Is that what is proposed? Apologies if I have missed the point here. I don't want to derail the WG as we have more or less reached agreement on the work plan. I expect no substantive change to the WG's work plan is proposed, but I would like to be sure. All the best, Maria On 11 February 2014 15:07, Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com> wrote:
Hi All, Sorry not to be on the call, but I don't think that Gema's statement is a paraphrase of the RAA, particularly the idea of revealing the identity of the domain licensee upon reasonable evidence of actionable harm or risk liability for resulting harm. Terms of reference for a study are hardly RAA language (Note: I worked on many of the study's terms of reference -- but not on the RAA).
Best, Kathy
:
I am not sure why Michele is so wound up about this, but the statement that Gema quoted (she did not create it) seems to be a reasonable paraphrase of a provision that has been in the RAA since its inception (with minor changes in the 2009 and 2013 versions).
The problem I believe she was attempting to flag is that this statement has to do with "reveal" and does not have any reference to "relay."
I think the definition of "relay" (taking out the sentence in question) is reasonably clear, but if Gema or others have suggesttions for clarifying it, they should certainly bring them forward.
Steve Metalitz
*From:* gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [ mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org>] *On Behalf Of *Marika Konings *Sent:* Tuesday, February 11, 2014 9:25 AM *To:* Michele Neylon - Blacknight; Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria *Cc:* gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] definitions of relay, publication, reveal
Please note that the language that Gema provided is a quote from the attached document which was prepared by a GNSO DT in 2009. You may need to go back to that DT to determine how that conclusion was drawn based on the RAA provisions.
Best regards,
Marika
*From: *Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com> *Date: *Tuesday 11 February 2014 15:19 *To: *Marika Konings <marika.konings@icann.org>, "Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria" <GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es> *Cc: *"gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> *Subject: *RE: definitions of relay, publication, reveal
That doesn't oblige the reveal and would only apply to proxy services not privacy services
If the service assumes the liability they've no obligation to reveal, so I ask again Gema - where are you getting the obligation from? Which clause in the RAA?
FYI - the only RAA version we should care about is the 2013 as this entire thing hinges on it and not any of the previous version
--
Mr Michele Neylon
Blacknight Solutions
Hosting & Colocation, Domains
Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072
Locall: 1850 929 929
Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
Fax. +353 (0) 1 4811 763
Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon
-------------------------------
Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty
Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845
*From:* Marika Konings [mailto:marika.konings@icann.org<marika.konings@icann.org>]
*Sent:* Tuesday, February 11, 2014 2:15 PM *To:* Michele Neylon - Blacknight; Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria *Cc:* gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org *Subject:* Re: definitions of relay, publication, reveal
Michele, I found this language in the 2001 RAA:
3.7.7.3 Any Registered Name Holder that intends to license use of a domain name to a third party is nonetheless the Registered Name Holder of record and is responsible for providing its own full contact information and for providing and updating accurate technical and administrative contact information adequate to facilitate timely resolution of any problems that arise in connection with the Registered Name. A Registered Name Holder licensing use of a Registered Name according to this provision shall accept liability for harm caused by wrongful use of the Registered Name, unless it promptly discloses the identity of the licensee to a party providing the Registered Name Holder reasonable evidence of actionable harm.
And in the 2009 RAA:
3.7.7.3 Any Registered Name Holder that intends to license use of a domain name to a third party is nonetheless the Registered Name Holder of record and is responsible for providing its own full contact information and for providing and updating accurate technical and administrative contact information adequate to facilitate timely resolution of any problems that arise in connection with the Registered Name. A Registered Name Holder licensing use of a Registered Name according to this provision shall accept liability for harm caused by wrongful use of the Registered Name, unless it promptly discloses the current contact information provided by the licensee and the identity of the licensee to a party providing the Registered Name Holder reasonable evidence of actionable harm.
And the 2013 RAA:
3.7.7.3 Any Registered Name Holder that intends to license use of a domain name to a third party is nonetheless the Registered Name Holder of record and is responsible for providing its own full contact information and for providing and updating accurate technical and administrative contact information adequate to facilitate timely resolution of any problems that arise in connection with the Registered Name. A Registered Name Holder licensing use of a Registered Name according to this provision shall accept liability for harm caused by wrongful use of the Registered Name, unless it discloses the current contact information provided by the licensee and the identity of the licensee within seven (7) days to a party providing the Registered Name Holder reasonable evidence of actionable harm.
Presumably that is the provision referenced?
Marika
*From: *Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com> *Date: *Tuesday 11 February 2014 15:06 *To: *Marika Konings <marika.konings@icann.org>, "Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria" <GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es> *Cc: *"gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> *Subject: *RE: definitions of relay, publication, reveal
So it's not in the RAA then is it?
Regards
Michele
--
Mr Michele Neylon
Blacknight Solutions
Hosting & Colocation, Domains
Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072
Locall: 1850 929 929
Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
Fax. +353 (0) 1 4811 763
Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon
-------------------------------
Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty
Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845
*From:* Marika Konings [mailto:marika.konings@icann.org<marika.konings@icann.org>]
*Sent:* Tuesday, February 11, 2014 1:59 PM *To:* Michele Neylon - Blacknight; Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria *Cc:* gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org *Subject:* Re: definitions of relay, publication, reveal
Michele, the reference comes from a document that was produced in February 2009, so presumably it is referring to an earlier version of the RAA.
Best regards,
Marika
*From: *Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com> *Date: *Tuesday 11 February 2014 14:56 *To: *"Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria" <GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es>, Marika Konings <marika.konings@icann.org> *Cc: *"gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> *Subject: *RE: definitions of relay, publication, reveal
Gema
Which clause in the RAA stipulates this?
I'm looking at the 2013 RAA's proxy / privacy specification and I cannot see this.
Regards
Michele
--
Mr Michele Neylon
Blacknight Solutions
Hosting & Colocation, Domains
Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072
Locall: 1850 929 929
Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
Fax. +353 (0) 1 4811 763
Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon
-------------------------------
Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty
Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845
*From:*gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [ mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org>] *On Behalf Of *Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria *Sent:* Tuesday, February 11, 2014 12:35 PM *To:* Marika Konings *Cc:* gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] definitions of relay, publication, reveal
Yes, I´ve seen this, Marika, but it only defines "relay" and in a very confusing way, mixing it with "reveal".
5) Relay Information Requests
See study # 20 for this term's use in context.
Problems arise from time to time in connection with registered names. Allegations of
actionable harm require copyright and trademark owners, law enforcement officials and
others to be able to operate through a proxy or privacy service provider to contact the
domain name user. Potential "harms" could include suspected fraud, intellectual property
rights infringement, or the infringement of other civil or criminal laws. To support the
relay of information requests, service providers must have reliable and timely means of
communicating with their domain licensees.* The ICANN Registrar Accreditation*
*Agreement stipulates that the proxy registrant reveal the identity of the domain licensee*
*upon reasonable evidence of actionable harm or risk liability for resulting harm.*
So, I insist definitions of "relay", "reveal" and "publication" are included in the "Grouping of Charter Questions" paper or else, referenced to a document that provides its meaning in the context of Proxy-Privacy Services.
Thank you again and best regards,
Gema
*De:* Marika Konings [mailto:marika.konings@icann.org<marika.konings@icann.org>]
*Enviado el:* martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 13:16 *Para:* Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria *Asunto:* Re: definitions of relay, publication, reveal
Dear Gema,
I think that refers to the attached document which is also posted on the WG wiki (background documents - see https://community.icann.org/x/XSWfAg).
Best regards,
Marika
*From: *"<Campillos Gonzalez>", Gema Maria <GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es> *Date: *Tuesday 11 February 2014 12:50 *To: *Marika Konings <marika.konings@icann.org> *Subject: *definitions of relay, publication, reveal
Dear Marika,
Where exactly can I find the definitions for the terms in the heading? In footnote 7 of the "Grouping of Charter Questions" paper, there is a reference to the "Terms of Reference for GNSO Whois Studies (refer to WG Background Documents).", but I am not able to find that document. Could you please point me to the paper I have to look up?
Thank you so much,
Gema
_______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing listGnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.orghttps://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
_______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
What Gema deleted from item 2(e) is repetitive of item 2(c) in the same listing (section V, item 2). From: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Maria Farrell Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 11:06 AM To: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] definitions of relay, publication, reveal A question re. the last couple of minutes on today's call; I'd not noticed till then that Gema suggested deleting "if requestor is law enforcement versus private party" from Section V, question e. I do not support dropping this rather important topic from our work at this late stage in the work plan discussions. Is that what is proposed? Apologies if I have missed the point here. I don't want to derail the WG as we have more or less reached agreement on the work plan. I expect no substantive change to the WG's work plan is proposed, but I would like to be sure. All the best, Maria On 11 February 2014 15:07, Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>> wrote: Hi All, Sorry not to be on the call, but I don't think that Gema's statement is a paraphrase of the RAA, particularly the idea of revealing the identity of the domain licensee upon reasonable evidence of actionable harm or risk liability for resulting harm. Terms of reference for a study are hardly RAA language (Note: I worked on many of the study's terms of reference -- but not on the RAA). Best, Kathy : I am not sure why Michele is so wound up about this, but the statement that Gema quoted (she did not create it) seems to be a reasonable paraphrase of a provision that has been in the RAA since its inception (with minor changes in the 2009 and 2013 versions). The problem I believe she was attempting to flag is that this statement has to do with "reveal" and does not have any reference to "relay." I think the definition of "relay" (taking out the sentence in question) is reasonably clear, but if Gema or others have suggesttions for clarifying it, they should certainly bring them forward. Steve Metalitz From: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Marika Konings Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 9:25 AM To: Michele Neylon - Blacknight; Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria Cc: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] definitions of relay, publication, reveal Please note that the language that Gema provided is a quote from the attached document which was prepared by a GNSO DT in 2009. You may need to go back to that DT to determine how that conclusion was drawn based on the RAA provisions. Best regards, Marika From: Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com<mailto:michele@blacknight.com>> Date: Tuesday 11 February 2014 15:19 To: Marika Konings <marika.konings@icann.org<mailto:marika.konings@icann.org>>, "Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria" <GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es<mailto:GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es>> Cc: "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: RE: definitions of relay, publication, reveal That doesn't oblige the reveal and would only apply to proxy services not privacy services If the service assumes the liability they've no obligation to reveal, so I ask again Gema - where are you getting the obligation from? Which clause in the RAA? FYI - the only RAA version we should care about is the 2013 as this entire thing hinges on it and not any of the previous version -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting & Colocation, Domains http://www.blacknight.co/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://www.technology.ie Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072<tel:%2B353%20%280%29%2059%20%C2%A09183072> Locall: 1850 929 929 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090<tel:%2B353%20%280%2959%209183090> Fax. +353 (0) 1 4811 763<tel:%2B353%20%280%29%201%204811%20763> Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845 From: Marika Konings [mailto:marika.konings@icann.org] Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 2:15 PM To: Michele Neylon - Blacknight; Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria Cc: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: definitions of relay, publication, reveal Michele, I found this language in the 2001 RAA: 3.7.7.3 Any Registered Name Holder that intends to license use of a domain name to a third party is nonetheless the Registered Name Holder of record and is responsible for providing its own full contact information and for providing and updating accurate technical and administrative contact information adequate to facilitate timely resolution of any problems that arise in connection with the Registered Name. A Registered Name Holder licensing use of a Registered Name according to this provision shall accept liability for harm caused by wrongful use of the Registered Name, unless it promptly discloses the identity of the licensee to a party providing the Registered Name Holder reasonable evidence of actionable harm. And in the 2009 RAA: 3.7.7.3 Any Registered Name Holder that intends to license use of a domain name to a third party is nonetheless the Registered Name Holder of record and is responsible for providing its own full contact information and for providing and updating accurate technical and administrative contact information adequate to facilitate timely resolution of any problems that arise in connection with the Registered Name. A Registered Name Holder licensing use of a Registered Name according to this provision shall accept liability for harm caused by wrongful use of the Registered Name, unless it promptly discloses the current contact information provided by the licensee and the identity of the licensee to a party providing the Registered Name Holder reasonable evidence of actionable harm. And the 2013 RAA: 3.7.7.3 Any Registered Name Holder that intends to license use of a domain name to a third party is nonetheless the Registered Name Holder of record and is responsible for providing its own full contact information and for providing and updating accurate technical and administrative contact information adequate to facilitate timely resolution of any problems that arise in connection with the Registered Name. A Registered Name Holder licensing use of a Registered Name according to this provision shall accept liability for harm caused by wrongful use of the Registered Name, unless it discloses the current contact information provided by the licensee and the identity of the licensee within seven (7) days to a party providing the Registered Name Holder reasonable evidence of actionable harm. Presumably that is the provision referenced? Marika From: Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com<mailto:michele@blacknight.com>> Date: Tuesday 11 February 2014 15:06 To: Marika Konings <marika.konings@icann.org<mailto:marika.konings@icann.org>>, "Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria" <GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es<mailto:GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es>> Cc: "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: RE: definitions of relay, publication, reveal So it's not in the RAA then is it? Regards Michele -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting & Colocation, Domains http://www.blacknight.co/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://www.technology.ie Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072<tel:%2B353%20%280%29%2059%C2%A0%209183072> Locall: 1850 929 929 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090<tel:%2B353%20%280%2959%209183090> Fax. +353 (0) 1 4811 763<tel:%2B353%20%280%29%201%204811%20763> Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845 From: Marika Konings [mailto:marika.konings@icann.org] Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 1:59 PM To: Michele Neylon - Blacknight; Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria Cc: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: definitions of relay, publication, reveal Michele, the reference comes from a document that was produced in February 2009, so presumably it is referring to an earlier version of the RAA. Best regards, Marika From: Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com<mailto:michele@blacknight.com>> Date: Tuesday 11 February 2014 14:56 To: "Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria" <GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es<mailto:GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es>>, Marika Konings <marika.konings@icann.org<mailto:marika.konings@icann.org>> Cc: "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: RE: definitions of relay, publication, reveal Gema Which clause in the RAA stipulates this? I'm looking at the 2013 RAA's proxy / privacy specification and I cannot see this. Regards Michele -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting & Colocation, Domains http://www.blacknight.co/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://www.technology.ie Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072<tel:%2B353%20%280%29%2059%C2%A0%209183072> Locall: 1850 929 929 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090<tel:%2B353%20%280%2959%209183090> Fax. +353 (0) 1 4811 763<tel:%2B353%20%280%29%201%204811%20763> Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845 From:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 12:35 PM To: Marika Konings Cc: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] definitions of relay, publication, reveal Yes, I´ve seen this, Marika, but it only defines "relay" and in a very confusing way, mixing it with "reveal". 5) Relay Information Requests See study # 20 for this term's use in context. Problems arise from time to time in connection with registered names. Allegations of actionable harm require copyright and trademark owners, law enforcement officials and others to be able to operate through a proxy or privacy service provider to contact the domain name user. Potential "harms" could include suspected fraud, intellectual property rights infringement, or the infringement of other civil or criminal laws. To support the relay of information requests, service providers must have reliable and timely means of communicating with their domain licensees. The ICANN Registrar Accreditation Agreement stipulates that the proxy registrant reveal the identity of the domain licensee upon reasonable evidence of actionable harm or risk liability for resulting harm. So, I insist definitions of "relay", "reveal" and "publication" are included in the "Grouping of Charter Questions" paper or else, referenced to a document that provides its meaning in the context of Proxy-Privacy Services. Thank you again and best regards, Gema De: Marika Konings [mailto:marika.konings@icann.org] Enviado el: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 13:16 Para: Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria Asunto: Re: definitions of relay, publication, reveal Dear Gema, I think that refers to the attached document which is also posted on the WG wiki (background documents - see https://community.icann.org/x/XSWfAg). Best regards, Marika From: "<Campillos Gonzalez>", Gema Maria <GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es<mailto:GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es>> Date: Tuesday 11 February 2014 12:50 To: Marika Konings <marika.konings@icann.org<mailto:marika.konings@icann.org>> Subject: definitions of relay, publication, reveal Dear Marika, Where exactly can I find the definitions for the terms in the heading? In footnote 7 of the "Grouping of Charter Questions" paper, there is a reference to the "Terms of Reference for GNSO Whois Studies (refer to WG Background Documents).", but I am not able to find that document. Could you please point me to the paper I have to look up? Thank you so much, Gema _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
Ah, I see. Thanks so much, Steve. I did wonder if I was missing something. All the best, Maria On 11 February 2014 16:42, Metalitz, Steven <met@msk.com> wrote:
What Gema deleted from item 2(e) is repetitive of item 2(c) in the same listing (section V, item 2).
*From:* gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [mailto: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Maria Farrell *Sent:* Tuesday, February 11, 2014 11:06 AM *To:* gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] definitions of relay, publication, reveal
A question re. the last couple of minutes on today's call; I'd not noticed till then that Gema suggested deleting "if requestor is law enforcement versus private party" from Section V, question e.
I do not support dropping this rather important topic from our work at this late stage in the work plan discussions. Is that what is proposed?
Apologies if I have missed the point here. I don't want to derail the WG as we have more or less reached agreement on the work plan. I expect no substantive change to the WG's work plan is proposed, but I would like to be sure.
All the best, Maria
On 11 February 2014 15:07, Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com> wrote:
Hi All, Sorry not to be on the call, but I don't think that Gema's statement is a paraphrase of the RAA, particularly the idea of revealing the identity of the domain licensee upon reasonable evidence of actionable harm or risk liability for resulting harm. Terms of reference for a study are hardly RAA language (Note: I worked on many of the study's terms of reference -- but not on the RAA).
Best, Kathy
:
I am not sure why Michele is so wound up about this, but the statement that Gema quoted (she did not create it) seems to be a reasonable paraphrase of a provision that has been in the RAA since its inception (with minor changes in the 2009 and 2013 versions).
The problem I believe she was attempting to flag is that this statement has to do with "reveal" and does not have any reference to "relay."
I think the definition of "relay" (taking out the sentence in question) is reasonably clear, but if Gema or others have suggesttions for clarifying it, they should certainly bring them forward.
Steve Metalitz
*From:* gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [ mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org>] *On Behalf Of *Marika Konings *Sent:* Tuesday, February 11, 2014 9:25 AM *To:* Michele Neylon - Blacknight; Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria *Cc:* gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] definitions of relay, publication, reveal
Please note that the language that Gema provided is a quote from the attached document which was prepared by a GNSO DT in 2009. You may need to go back to that DT to determine how that conclusion was drawn based on the RAA provisions.
Best regards,
Marika
*From: *Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com> *Date: *Tuesday 11 February 2014 15:19 *To: *Marika Konings <marika.konings@icann.org>, "Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria" <GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es> *Cc: *"gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> *Subject: *RE: definitions of relay, publication, reveal
That doesn't oblige the reveal and would only apply to proxy services not privacy services
If the service assumes the liability they've no obligation to reveal, so I ask again Gema - where are you getting the obligation from? Which clause in the RAA?
FYI - the only RAA version we should care about is the 2013 as this entire thing hinges on it and not any of the previous version
--
Mr Michele Neylon
Blacknight Solutions
Hosting & Colocation, Domains
Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072
Locall: 1850 929 929
Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
Fax. +353 (0) 1 4811 763
Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon
-------------------------------
Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty
Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845
*From:* Marika Konings [mailto:marika.konings@icann.org<marika.konings@icann.org>]
*Sent:* Tuesday, February 11, 2014 2:15 PM *To:* Michele Neylon - Blacknight; Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria *Cc:* gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org *Subject:* Re: definitions of relay, publication, reveal
Michele, I found this language in the 2001 RAA:
3.7.7.3 Any Registered Name Holder that intends to license use of a domain name to a third party is nonetheless the Registered Name Holder of record and is responsible for providing its own full contact information and for providing and updating accurate technical and administrative contact information adequate to facilitate timely resolution of any problems that arise in connection with the Registered Name. A Registered Name Holder licensing use of a Registered Name according to this provision shall accept liability for harm caused by wrongful use of the Registered Name, unless it promptly discloses the identity of the licensee to a party providing the Registered Name Holder reasonable evidence of actionable harm.
And in the 2009 RAA:
3.7.7.3 Any Registered Name Holder that intends to license use of a domain name to a third party is nonetheless the Registered Name Holder of record and is responsible for providing its own full contact information and for providing and updating accurate technical and administrative contact information adequate to facilitate timely resolution of any problems that arise in connection with the Registered Name. A Registered Name Holder licensing use of a Registered Name according to this provision shall accept liability for harm caused by wrongful use of the Registered Name, unless it promptly discloses the current contact information provided by the licensee and the identity of the licensee to a party providing the Registered Name Holder reasonable evidence of actionable harm.
And the 2013 RAA:
3.7.7.3 Any Registered Name Holder that intends to license use of a domain name to a third party is nonetheless the Registered Name Holder of record and is responsible for providing its own full contact information and for providing and updating accurate technical and administrative contact information adequate to facilitate timely resolution of any problems that arise in connection with the Registered Name. A Registered Name Holder licensing use of a Registered Name according to this provision shall accept liability for harm caused by wrongful use of the Registered Name, unless it discloses the current contact information provided by the licensee and the identity of the licensee within seven (7) days to a party providing the Registered Name Holder reasonable evidence of actionable harm.
Presumably that is the provision referenced?
Marika
*From: *Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com> *Date: *Tuesday 11 February 2014 15:06 *To: *Marika Konings <marika.konings@icann.org>, "Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria" <GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es> *Cc: *"gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> *Subject: *RE: definitions of relay, publication, reveal
So it's not in the RAA then is it?
Regards
Michele
--
Mr Michele Neylon
Blacknight Solutions
Hosting & Colocation, Domains
Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072
Locall: 1850 929 929
Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
Fax. +353 (0) 1 4811 763
Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon
-------------------------------
Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty
Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845
*From:* Marika Konings [mailto:marika.konings@icann.org<marika.konings@icann.org>]
*Sent:* Tuesday, February 11, 2014 1:59 PM *To:* Michele Neylon - Blacknight; Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria *Cc:* gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org *Subject:* Re: definitions of relay, publication, reveal
Michele, the reference comes from a document that was produced in February 2009, so presumably it is referring to an earlier version of the RAA.
Best regards,
Marika
*From: *Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com> *Date: *Tuesday 11 February 2014 14:56 *To: *"Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria" <GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es>, Marika Konings <marika.konings@icann.org> *Cc: *"gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> *Subject: *RE: definitions of relay, publication, reveal
Gema
Which clause in the RAA stipulates this?
I'm looking at the 2013 RAA's proxy / privacy specification and I cannot see this.
Regards
Michele
--
Mr Michele Neylon
Blacknight Solutions
Hosting & Colocation, Domains
Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072
Locall: 1850 929 929
Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
Fax. +353 (0) 1 4811 763
Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon
-------------------------------
Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty
Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845
*From:*gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [ mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org>] *On Behalf Of *Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria *Sent:* Tuesday, February 11, 2014 12:35 PM *To:* Marika Konings *Cc:* gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] definitions of relay, publication, reveal
Yes, I´ve seen this, Marika, but it only defines "relay" and in a very confusing way, mixing it with "reveal".
5) Relay Information Requests
See study # 20 for this term's use in context.
Problems arise from time to time in connection with registered names. Allegations of
actionable harm require copyright and trademark owners, law enforcement officials and
others to be able to operate through a proxy or privacy service provider to contact the
domain name user. Potential "harms" could include suspected fraud, intellectual property
rights infringement, or the infringement of other civil or criminal laws. To support the
relay of information requests, service providers must have reliable and timely means of
communicating with their domain licensees.* The ICANN Registrar Accreditation*
*Agreement stipulates that the proxy registrant reveal the identity of the domain licensee*
*upon reasonable evidence of actionable harm or risk liability for resulting harm.*
So, I insist definitions of "relay", "reveal" and "publication" are included in the "Grouping of Charter Questions" paper or else, referenced to a document that provides its meaning in the context of Proxy-Privacy Services.
Thank you again and best regards,
Gema
*De:* Marika Konings [mailto:marika.konings@icann.org<marika.konings@icann.org>]
*Enviado el:* martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 13:16 *Para:* Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria *Asunto:* Re: definitions of relay, publication, reveal
Dear Gema,
I think that refers to the attached document which is also posted on the WG wiki (background documents - see https://community.icann.org/x/XSWfAg).
Best regards,
Marika
*From: *"<Campillos Gonzalez>", Gema Maria <GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es> *Date: *Tuesday 11 February 2014 12:50 *To: *Marika Konings <marika.konings@icann.org> *Subject: *definitions of relay, publication, reveal
Dear Marika,
Where exactly can I find the definitions for the terms in the heading? In footnote 7 of the "Grouping of Charter Questions" paper, there is a reference to the "Terms of Reference for GNSO Whois Studies (refer to WG Background Documents).", but I am not able to find that document. Could you please point me to the paper I have to look up?
Thank you so much,
Gema
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Hi Maria, I propose to delete it because it rephrases a question that is already asked two questions above. I copy V.2 in its entirety: 2. Should ICANN-accredited privacy/proxy service providers be required to forward to the customer all allegations of illegal activities they receive relating to specific domain names of the customer? a) If so, should this apply to all formats, or just email communications? b) Plus publication of email address of the complainant? c) Any difference if enquiry is from law enforcement, private attorney or other parties? d) Should the P&P Service refrain from forwarding the allegations to the customer if the enquire asks not to do it and reasons its request? e) Any difference if requestor is law enforcement vs. private party; if requestor is from different jurisdiction than P/P provider; or if laws are different in P/P provider and registrant's respective jurisdictions? f) If allegations are received from supposed victim, how to protect her safety/privacy? Require redacted (i.e. identifying information is removed) requests or have this as an option? g) Should P/P service have discretion to forward rather than be mandated (outside a court order or law enforcement request)? However, if there is a nuance in meaning I can´t see at first glance, disregard my suggestion. Best regards, Gema De: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] En nombre de Maria Farrell Enviado el: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 17:06 Para: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org Asunto: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] definitions of relay, publication, reveal A question re. the last couple of minutes on today's call; I'd not noticed till then that Gema suggested deleting "if requestor is law enforcement versus private party" from Section V, question e. I do not support dropping this rather important topic from our work at this late stage in the work plan discussions. Is that what is proposed? Apologies if I have missed the point here. I don't want to derail the WG as we have more or less reached agreement on the work plan. I expect no substantive change to the WG's work plan is proposed, but I would like to be sure. All the best, Maria On 11 February 2014 15:07, Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>> wrote: Hi All, Sorry not to be on the call, but I don't think that Gema's statement is a paraphrase of the RAA, particularly the idea of revealing the identity of the domain licensee upon reasonable evidence of actionable harm or risk liability for resulting harm. Terms of reference for a study are hardly RAA language (Note: I worked on many of the study's terms of reference -- but not on the RAA). Best, Kathy : I am not sure why Michele is so wound up about this, but the statement that Gema quoted (she did not create it) seems to be a reasonable paraphrase of a provision that has been in the RAA since its inception (with minor changes in the 2009 and 2013 versions). The problem I believe she was attempting to flag is that this statement has to do with "reveal" and does not have any reference to "relay." I think the definition of "relay" (taking out the sentence in question) is reasonably clear, but if Gema or others have suggesttions for clarifying it, they should certainly bring them forward. Steve Metalitz From: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Marika Konings Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 9:25 AM To: Michele Neylon - Blacknight; Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria Cc: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] definitions of relay, publication, reveal Please note that the language that Gema provided is a quote from the attached document which was prepared by a GNSO DT in 2009. You may need to go back to that DT to determine how that conclusion was drawn based on the RAA provisions. Best regards, Marika From: Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com<mailto:michele@blacknight.com>> Date: Tuesday 11 February 2014 15:19 To: Marika Konings <marika.konings@icann.org<mailto:marika.konings@icann.org>>, "Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria" <GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es<mailto:GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es>> Cc: "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: RE: definitions of relay, publication, reveal That doesn't oblige the reveal and would only apply to proxy services not privacy services If the service assumes the liability they've no obligation to reveal, so I ask again Gema - where are you getting the obligation from? Which clause in the RAA? FYI - the only RAA version we should care about is the 2013 as this entire thing hinges on it and not any of the previous version -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting & Colocation, Domains http://www.blacknight.co/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://www.technology.ie Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Locall: 1850 929 929 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Fax. +353 (0) 1 4811 763 Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845 From: Marika Konings [mailto:marika.konings@icann.org] Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 2:15 PM To: Michele Neylon - Blacknight; Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria Cc: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: definitions of relay, publication, reveal Michele, I found this language in the 2001 RAA: 3.7.7.3 Any Registered Name Holder that intends to license use of a domain name to a third party is nonetheless the Registered Name Holder of record and is responsible for providing its own full contact information and for providing and updating accurate technical and administrative contact information adequate to facilitate timely resolution of any problems that arise in connection with the Registered Name. A Registered Name Holder licensing use of a Registered Name according to this provision shall accept liability for harm caused by wrongful use of the Registered Name, unless it promptly discloses the identity of the licensee to a party providing the Registered Name Holder reasonable evidence of actionable harm. And in the 2009 RAA: 3.7.7.3 Any Registered Name Holder that intends to license use of a domain name to a third party is nonetheless the Registered Name Holder of record and is responsible for providing its own full contact information and for providing and updating accurate technical and administrative contact information adequate to facilitate timely resolution of any problems that arise in connection with the Registered Name. A Registered Name Holder licensing use of a Registered Name according to this provision shall accept liability for harm caused by wrongful use of the Registered Name, unless it promptly discloses the current contact information provided by the licensee and the identity of the licensee to a party providing the Registered Name Holder reasonable evidence of actionable harm. And the 2013 RAA: 3.7.7.3 Any Registered Name Holder that intends to license use of a domain name to a third party is nonetheless the Registered Name Holder of record and is responsible for providing its own full contact information and for providing and updating accurate technical and administrative contact information adequate to facilitate timely resolution of any problems that arise in connection with the Registered Name. A Registered Name Holder licensing use of a Registered Name according to this provision shall accept liability for harm caused by wrongful use of the Registered Name, unless it discloses the current contact information provided by the licensee and the identity of the licensee within seven (7) days to a party providing the Registered Name Holder reasonable evidence of actionable harm. Presumably that is the provision referenced? Marika From: Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com<mailto:michele@blacknight.com>> Date: Tuesday 11 February 2014 15:06 To: Marika Konings <marika.konings@icann.org<mailto:marika.konings@icann.org>>, "Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria" <GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es<mailto:GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es>> Cc: "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: RE: definitions of relay, publication, reveal So it's not in the RAA then is it? Regards Michele -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting & Colocation, Domains http://www.blacknight.co/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://www.technology.ie Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Locall: 1850 929 929 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Fax. +353 (0) 1 4811 763 Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845 From: Marika Konings [mailto:marika.konings@icann.org] Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 1:59 PM To: Michele Neylon - Blacknight; Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria Cc: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: definitions of relay, publication, reveal Michele, the reference comes from a document that was produced in February 2009, so presumably it is referring to an earlier version of the RAA. Best regards, Marika From: Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com<mailto:michele@blacknight.com>> Date: Tuesday 11 February 2014 14:56 To: "Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria" <GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es<mailto:GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es>>, Marika Konings <marika.konings@icann.org<mailto:marika.konings@icann.org>> Cc: "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: RE: definitions of relay, publication, reveal Gema Which clause in the RAA stipulates this? I'm looking at the 2013 RAA's proxy / privacy specification and I cannot see this. Regards Michele -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting & Colocation, Domains http://www.blacknight.co/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://www.technology.ie Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Locall: 1850 929 929 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Fax. +353 (0) 1 4811 763 Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845 From:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 12:35 PM To: Marika Konings Cc: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] definitions of relay, publication, reveal Yes, I´ve seen this, Marika, but it only defines "relay" and in a very confusing way, mixing it with "reveal". 5) Relay Information Requests See study # 20 for this term's use in context. Problems arise from time to time in connection with registered names. Allegations of actionable harm require copyright and trademark owners, law enforcement officials and others to be able to operate through a proxy or privacy service provider to contact the domain name user. Potential "harms" could include suspected fraud, intellectual property rights infringement, or the infringement of other civil or criminal laws. To support the relay of information requests, service providers must have reliable and timely means of communicating with their domain licensees. The ICANN Registrar Accreditation Agreement stipulates that the proxy registrant reveal the identity of the domain licensee upon reasonable evidence of actionable harm or risk liability for resulting harm. So, I insist definitions of "relay", "reveal" and "publication" are included in the "Grouping of Charter Questions" paper or else, referenced to a document that provides its meaning in the context of Proxy-Privacy Services. Thank you again and best regards, Gema De: Marika Konings [mailto:marika.konings@icann.org] Enviado el: martes, 11 de febrero de 2014 13:16 Para: Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria Asunto: Re: definitions of relay, publication, reveal Dear Gema, I think that refers to the attached document which is also posted on the WG wiki (background documents - see https://community.icann.org/x/XSWfAg). Best regards, Marika From: "<Campillos Gonzalez>", Gema Maria <GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es<mailto:GCAMPILLOS@minetur.es>> Date: Tuesday 11 February 2014 12:50 To: Marika Konings <marika.konings@icann.org<mailto:marika.konings@icann.org>> Subject: definitions of relay, publication, reveal Dear Marika, Where exactly can I find the definitions for the terms in the heading? In footnote 7 of the "Grouping of Charter Questions" paper, there is a reference to the "Terms of Reference for GNSO Whois Studies (refer to WG Background Documents).", but I am not able to find that document. Could you please point me to the paper I have to look up? Thank you so much, Gema _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
participants (6)
-
Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria -
Kathy Kleiman -
Maria Farrell -
Marika Konings -
Metalitz, Steven -
Michele Neylon - Blacknight