I think I have a fairly good understanding of how resellers fit into the domain name registration business but I will defer to the registrars in our midst to explain it because they deal with it directly in most of their businesses. The focus on 'collection' was mostly done to avoid 'for now' getting into display and access and thereby breaking our deliberation into smaller steps. Whether 'collection' is the best word or not is less important than to get everyone thinking about data elements themselves regardless of whether the data elements are publicly displayed or accessible to certain parties. Stephanie may be right that there may not be any reason to have any data elements in the RDS if they are not displayed or accessed and we will get to that point. Chuck From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Stephanie Perrin Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2017 2:57 PM To: gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] New Year Challenge Happy New Year all! You are probably going to hate me because I am going to slow us down again. The problem is that we frame the discussion and thinking so very differently, depending on the expertise that we bring to this debate, that understanding the minutiae is very important. For instance on a recent call I questioned whether an individual needed to look at WHOIS to see who their registrar is, and was promptly corrected in this matter. Naive person that I am, I had never plumbed the depths of the reseller business, and I am not finding much useful information on the ICANN site that will help me do this (please help and point me to how this happens, what kind of contracts pass on obligations, how this is interpreted under DP law, why I cannot find my registrar on any of the lists of ICANN accredited registrars, consumer protection obligations under US law, how this works in the privacy proxy business etc.). IN my responses to the questionnaire, I have pointed out that it is the registrars and registries or their agents that collect/generate the Thin data. The proposed RDS, which at the moment is still protean, is not an entity, cannot collect etc, but is instead a display mechanism or automated disclosure instrument. So framing this in terms of collection is in my view quite misleading, unless I am totally misunderstanding the poll (always possible). Anyway if anyone can help me understand how resellers work I would be most grateful. It would probably also save us a pile of time if I understood it better, if that can possibly incentivize some brave soul..... cheers Stephanie Perrin On 2017-01-03 10:31, Gomes, Chuck wrote: A few weeks ago one of our WG members said something to me that I think might be a good challenge for many of us as we begin 2017: "I think people (including me) need to snap back to attention. I think we lost focus because of the incredible amount of lost traffic on minutiae that was so hard for non-ICANN insiders to follow." If this applies to you, I hope you will respond. I can tell you that no one gets more frustrated with minutiae than me. I have just been at this for so long that I have learned minutiae for one person is important to someone else so I have realized that I have to have a lot of patience. Still, I often find myself wanting to push faster ahead and the leadership team has to pull me back. It has taken us about 11 months to get to where we are and it may seem like we have made very little progress but I am hopeful that we have laid some building blocks that will make our work ahead easier. We need to all keep in mind that the ICANN community has been grappling with Whois (RDS) issues for most of its 18-year existence with very minimal progress. If we are going to change that pattern, we will have to be patient and persistent. As we ended 2016 we reached the critical deliberation stage of Work Plan Phase 1. None of us should think that that will be easy or quick; it won't be. But I am confident that we will start to see more concrete results of our efforts. I encourage all of you to start off this year by completing the poll that was distributed last week. You have until Friday of this week to complete it. Here is the link to the poll: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/V3CWZBL . Happy New Year. Chuck _______________________________________________ gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg

Hi Steph: So you know, ICANN has always insisted that with both the RA & RAA, agency rules apply. That is, in respect of resellers, they are mere agents of registrars and are thus bound by the terms and conditions of the RAA. What is never sure is whether this posture also commits ICANN to insist that redress for violations must be exacted from the principal. -Carlton ============================== *Carlton A Samuels* *Mobile: 876-818-1799Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* ============================= On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 2:56 PM, Stephanie Perrin < stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca> wrote:

Happy New Year all! You are probably going to hate me because I am going to slow us down again. The problem is that we frame the discussion and thinking so very differently, depending on the expertise that we bring to this debate, that understanding the minutiae is very important. For instance on a recent call I questioned whether an individual needed to look at WHOIS to see who their registrar is, and was promptly corrected in this matter. Naive person that I am, I had never plumbed the depths of the reseller business, and I am not finding much useful information on the ICANN site that will help me do this (please help and point me to how this happens, what kind of contracts pass on obligations, how this is interpreted under DP law, why I cannot find my registrar on any of the lists of ICANN accredited registrars, consumer protection obligations under US law, how this works in the privacy proxy business etc.). IN my responses to the questionnaire, I have pointed out that it is the registrars and registries or their agents that collect/generate the Thin data. The proposed RDS, which at the moment is still protean, is not an entity, cannot collect etc, but is instead a display mechanism or automated disclosure instrument. So framing this in terms of collection is in my view quite misleading, unless I am totally misunderstanding the poll (always possible).

Anyway if anyone can help me understand how resellers work I would be most grateful. It would probably also save us a pile of time if I understood it better, if that can possibly incentivize some brave soul.....

cheers Stephanie Perrin

On 2017-01-03 10:31, Gomes, Chuck wrote:

A few weeks ago one of our WG members said something to me that I think might be a good challenge for many of us as we begin 2017: “I think people (including me) need to snap back to attention. I think we lost focus because of the incredible amount of lost traffic on minutiae that was so hard for non-ICANN insiders to follow.”

If this applies to you, I hope you will respond.

I can tell you that no one gets more frustrated with minutiae than me. I have just been at this for so long that I have learned minutiae for one person is important to someone else so I have realized that I have to have a lot of patience. Still, I often find myself wanting to push faster ahead and the leadership team has to pull me back.

It has taken us about 11 months to get to where we are and it may seem like we have made very little progress but I am hopeful that we have laid some building blocks that will make our work ahead easier. We need to all keep in mind that the ICANN community has been grappling with Whois (RDS) issues for most of its 18-year existence with very minimal progress. If we are going to change that pattern, we will have to be patient and persistent.

As we ended 2016 we reached the critical deliberation stage of Work Plan Phase 1. None of us should think that that will be easy or quick; it won’t be. But I am confident that we will start to see more concrete results of our efforts.

I encourage all of you to start off this year by completing the poll that was distributed last week. You have until Friday of this week to complete it. Here is the link to the poll: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/V3CWZBL .

Happy New Year.

Chuck

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On Tue, Jan 03, 2017 at 04:21:04PM -0500, Stephanie Perrin wrote:

Very odd that there is not more language in the contracts to that effect.

Why? There are basically two possibilities. One is that resellers are agents, and there is explicit acknowledgement of the additional agent's presence but that's it. The alternative is that someone attempts to regulate and otherwise control the way that agency works in this market. In that case, we will re-learn empircally the same thing that people have learned repeatedly already about reselling things on the Internet (whether that was concert tickets, or digital files, or embargoed products, or indeed domain names back in the early days of the registrar market): the Internet is really good at rendering ridiculous commercial and contractual restrictions on commerce between two willing parties. It might turn out that one can regulate in such a way that it's a _hassle_, so that only the committed participate in the grey market. But one cannot make the market go away by fiat, and the more one attempts to regulate that grey market the more likely it is to thrive. A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com

That helps Alan, thanks. I will check the RAAs and see what I can find in the way of consumer protection in these markets. I realize there are worse scenarios in the reseller market (eg. US mortgage market, Insurance) in terms of transparency and consumer rights, but that does not make it ok in my view. cheers Stephanie On 2017-01-03 17:51, Alan Greenberg wrote:

How resellers work is relatively straight forward. They are agents working on behalf of a registrar. The handle the transaction and often ongoing contact with the registrant. Some registrars have no resellers, others some resellers, and some registrars only work through resellers and have no direct registratns. Of course, you may find that a reseller is really a subsidiary of the registrar (or in some other business relationship with them other than purely a reseller).

Until relatively recently, ICANN took the position that since they had no contract with resellers, they had no control over what resellers did. In more recent RAAs, there are explicit clauses which require that if a registrar delegates anything to resellers, that they must ensure that the reseller fulfill any obligations that the registrar would have if they were dealing with the registrant directly. Past RAAs only covereed some of these requirements but my recollection is that the current RAA pretty much puts a registrant in the same situation regardless of whether they are dealing with the registrar directly or a reseller (I may be wrong about that, but that is my recollection).

Of course, it is up to the registrar to ensure that these obligations are followed, or ICANN compliance to identify places where they may not be doing so.

Is that any clearer?

Alan

At 03/01/2017 02:56 PM, Stephanie Perrin wrote:

...

Happy New Year all! You are probably going to hate me because I am going to slow us down again. The problem is that we frame the discussion and thinking so very differently, depending on the expertise that we bring to this debate, that understanding the minutiae is very important. For instance on a recent call I questioned whether an individual needed to look at WHOIS to see who their registrar is, and was promptly corrected in this matter. Naive person that I am, I had never plumbed the depths of the reseller business, and I am not finding much useful information on the ICANN site that will help me do this (please help and point me to how this happens, what kind of contracts pass on obligations, how this is interpreted under DP law, why I cannot find my registrar on any of the lists of ICANN accredited registrars, consumer protection obligations under US law, how this works in the privacy proxy business etc.). IN my responses to the questionnaire, I have pointed out that it is the registrars and registries or their agents that collect/generate the Thin data. The proposed RDS, which at the moment is still protean, is not an entity, cannot collect etc, but is instead a display mechanism or automated disclosure instrument. So framing this in terms of collection is in my view quite misleading, unless I am totally misunderstanding the poll (always possible).

Anyway if anyone can help me understand how resellers work I would be most grateful. It would probably also save us a pile of time if I understood it better, if that can possibly incentivize some brave soul.....

cheers Stephanie Perrin

On 2017-01-03 10:31, Gomes, Chuck wrote:

...

A few weeks ago one of our WG members said something to me that I think might be a good challenge for many of us as we begin 2017: “I think people (including me) need to snap back to attention. I think we lost focus because of the incredible amount of lost traffic on minutiae that was so hard for non-ICANN insiders to follow.”

If this applies to you, I hope you will respond.

I can tell you that no one gets more frustrated with minutiae than me. I have just been at this for so long that I have learned minutiae for one person is important to someone else so I have realized that I have to have a lot of patience. Still, I often find myself wanting to push faster ahead and the leadership team has to pull me back.

It has taken us about 11 months to get to where we are and it may seem like we have made very little progress but I am hopeful that we have laid some building blocks that will make our work ahead easier. We need to all keep in mind that the ICANN community has been grappling with Whois (RDS) issues for most of its 18-year existence with very minimal progress. If we are going to change that pattern, we will have to be patient and persistent.

As we ended 2016 we reached the critical deliberation stage of Work Plan Phase 1. None of us should think that that will be easy or quick; it won’t be. But I am confident that we will start to see more concrete results of our efforts.

I encourage all of you to start off this year by completing the poll that was distributed last week. You have until Friday of this week to complete it. Here is the link to the poll: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/V3CWZBL <https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/V3CWZBL> .

Happy New Year.

Chuck

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This is not always the case. Many resellers are more like agents of the registrant than agents of the registrar. Best, Volker Am 03.01.2017 um 23:51 schrieb Alan Greenberg:

How resellers work is relatively straight forward. They are agents working on behalf of a registrar. The handle the transaction and often ongoing contact with the registrant. Some registrars have no resellers, others some resellers, and some registrars only work through resellers and have no direct registratns. Of course, you may find that a reseller is really a subsidiary of the registrar (or in some other business relationship with them other than purely a reseller).

Until relatively recently, ICANN took the position that since they had no contract with resellers, they had no control over what resellers did. In more recent RAAs, there are explicit clauses which require that if a registrar delegates anything to resellers, that they must ensure that the reseller fulfill any obligations that the registrar would have if they were dealing with the registrant directly. Past RAAs only covereed some of these requirements but my recollection is that the current RAA pretty much puts a registrant in the same situation regardless of whether they are dealing with the registrar directly or a reseller (I may be wrong about that, but that is my recollection).

Of course, it is up to the registrar to ensure that these obligations are followed, or ICANN compliance to identify places where they may not be doing so.

Is that any clearer?

Alan

At 03/01/2017 02:56 PM, Stephanie Perrin wrote:

...

Happy New Year all! You are probably going to hate me because I am going to slow us down again. The problem is that we frame the discussion and thinking so very differently, depending on the expertise that we bring to this debate, that understanding the minutiae is very important. For instance on a recent call I questioned whether an individual needed to look at WHOIS to see who their registrar is, and was promptly corrected in this matter. Naive person that I am, I had never plumbed the depths of the reseller business, and I am not finding much useful information on the ICANN site that will help me do this (please help and point me to how this happens, what kind of contracts pass on obligations, how this is interpreted under DP law, why I cannot find my registrar on any of the lists of ICANN accredited registrars, consumer protection obligations under US law, how this works in the privacy proxy business etc.). IN my responses to the questionnaire, I have pointed out that it is the registrars and registries or their agents that collect/generate the Thin data. The proposed RDS, which at the moment is still protean, is not an entity, cannot collect etc, but is instead a display mechanism or automated disclosure instrument. So framing this in terms of collection is in my view quite misleading, unless I am totally misunderstanding the poll (always possible).

Anyway if anyone can help me understand how resellers work I would be most grateful. It would probably also save us a pile of time if I understood it better, if that can possibly incentivize some brave soul.....

cheers Stephanie Perrin

On 2017-01-03 10:31, Gomes, Chuck wrote:

...

A few weeks ago one of our WG members said something to me that I think might be a good challenge for many of us as we begin 2017: “I think people (including me) need to snap back to attention. I think we lost focus because of the incredible amount of lost traffic on minutiae that was so hard for non-ICANN insiders to follow.”

If this applies to you, I hope you will respond.

I can tell you that no one gets more frustrated with minutiae than me. I have just been at this for so long that I have learned minutiae for one person is important to someone else so I have realized that I have to have a lot of patience. Still, I often find myself wanting to push faster ahead and the leadership team has to pull me back.

It has taken us about 11 months to get to where we are and it may seem like we have made very little progress but I am hopeful that we have laid some building blocks that will make our work ahead easier. We need to all keep in mind that the ICANN community has been grappling with Whois (RDS) issues for most of its 18-year existence with very minimal progress. If we are going to change that pattern, we will have to be patient and persistent.

As we ended 2016 we reached the critical deliberation stage of Work Plan Phase 1. None of us should think that that will be easy or quick; it won’t be. But I am confident that we will start to see more concrete results of our efforts.

I encourage all of you to start off this year by completing the poll that was distributed last week. You have until Friday of this week to complete it. Here is the link to the poll: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/V3CWZBL <https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/V3CWZBL> .

Happy New Year.

Chuck

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-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.

Hi Greg, we have hundreds of resellers who do not self-identify as such. They open end customer accounts and register domains for others, as their agents. No reseller agreements are in place in such cases as we have no way of knowing. Consider for example web-developers registering domains for their clients with a registrar. Or lawyers registering domains for their clients. I am using the term agent loosely in the sense of: "an entity doing things at the request of another entity - whatever their contractual relationship may be". Am 04.01.2017 um 16:31 schrieb Greg Shatan:

Volker,

What types of cases are you thinking of? And how do reseller agreements in these cases reflect that difference?

In either case, are we talking about a true legal "principal-agent" relationship? (Defined as "A consensual relationship created by contract or by law where one party, the principal, grants authority for another party, the agent, to act on behalf of and under the control of the principal to deal with a third party. An agency relationship is fiduciary in nature [to the benefit of the principal], and the actions and words of an agent exchanged with a third party bind the principal."? Or are we using the term "agent" more loosely?

Thanks for any light you can shed on the topic.

Greg

On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 5:49 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> wrote:

This is not always the case. Many resellers are more like agents of the registrant than agents of the registrar.

Best,

Volker

Am 03.01.2017 um 23:51 schrieb Alan Greenberg:

...

How resellers work is relatively straight forward. They are agents working on behalf of a registrar. The handle the transaction and often ongoing contact with the registrant. Some registrars have no resellers, others some resellers, and some registrars only work through resellers and have no direct registratns. Of course, you may find that a reseller is really a subsidiary of the registrar (or in some other business relationship with them other than purely a reseller).

Until relatively recently, ICANN took the position that since they had no contract with resellers, they had no control over what resellers did. In more recent RAAs, there are explicit clauses which require that if a registrar delegates anything to resellers, that they must ensure that the reseller fulfill any obligations that the registrar would have if they were dealing with the registrant directly. Past RAAs only covereed some of these requirements but my recollection is that the current RAA pretty much puts a registrant in the same situation regardless of whether they are dealing with the registrar directly or a reseller (I may be wrong about that, but that is my recollection).

Of course, it is up to the registrar to ensure that these obligations are followed, or ICANN compliance to identify places where they may not be doing so.

Is that any clearer?

Alan

At 03/01/2017 02:56 PM, Stephanie Perrin wrote:

...

Happy New Year all! You are probably going to hate me because I am going to slow us down again. The problem is that we frame the discussion and thinking so very differently, depending on the expertise that we bring to this debate, that understanding the minutiae is very important. For instance on a recent call I questioned whether an individual needed to look at WHOIS to see who their registrar is, and was promptly corrected in this matter. Naive person that I am, I had never plumbed the depths of the reseller business, and I am not finding much useful information on the ICANN site that will help me do this (please help and point me to how this happens, what kind of contracts pass on obligations, how this is interpreted under DP law, why I cannot find my registrar on any of the lists of ICANN accredited registrars, consumer protection obligations under US law, how this works in the privacy proxy business etc.). IN my responses to the questionnaire, I have pointed out that it is the registrars and registries or their agents that collect/generate the Thin data. The proposed RDS, which at the moment is still protean, is not an entity, cannot collect etc, but is instead a display mechanism or automated disclosure instrument. So framing this in terms of collection is in my view quite misleading, unless I am totally misunderstanding the poll (always possible).

Anyway if anyone can help me understand how resellers work I would be most grateful. It would probably also save us a pile of time if I understood it better, if that can possibly incentivize some brave soul.....

cheers Stephanie Perrin

On 2017-01-03 10:31, Gomes, Chuck wrote:

...

A few weeks ago one of our WG members said something to me that I think might be a good challenge for many of us as we begin 2017: “I think people (including me) need to snap back to attention. I think we lost focus because of the incredible amount of lost traffic on minutiae that was so hard for non-ICANN insiders to follow.”

If this applies to you, I hope you will respond.

I can tell you that no one gets more frustrated with minutiae than me. I have just been at this for so long that I have learned minutiae for one person is important to someone else so I have realized that I have to have a lot of patience. Still, I often find myself wanting to push faster ahead and the leadership team has to pull me back.

It has taken us about 11 months to get to where we are and it may seem like we have made very little progress but I am hopeful that we have laid some building blocks that will make our work ahead easier. We need to all keep in mind that the ICANN community has been grappling with Whois (RDS) issues for most of its 18-year existence with very minimal progress. If we are going to change that pattern, we will have to be patient and persistent.

As we ended 2016 we reached the critical deliberation stage of Work Plan Phase 1. None of us should think that that will be easy or quick; it won’t be. But I am confident that we will start to see more concrete results of our efforts.

I encourage all of you to start off this year by completing the poll that was distributed last week. You have until Friday of this week to complete it. Here is the link to the poll: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/V3CWZBL <https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/V3CWZBL> .

Happy New Year.

Chuck

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-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung -

Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.:+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 <tel:+49%206894%209396901> Fax.:+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 <tel:+49%206894%209396851> Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>

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--------------------------------------------

Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Best regards,

Volker A. Greimann - legal department -

Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.:+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 <tel:+49%206894%209396901> Fax.:+49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 <tel:+49%206894%209396851> Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>

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Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>

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-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.

Volker, those people are not “resellers” in industry parlance. They are “account holders” as per the RAA. Well-defined, industry-standard terms exist for these things. Let’s use those terms whenever possible. Making up our own terms tends to make things more confusing than they need to be. The RAA (https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/approved-with-specs-2013-09-17-en ) defines: 1.1 "Account Holder" means the person or entity that is paying for the Registered Name or otherwise controls the management of the registered name, when that person or entity is not the Registered Name Holder. 1.24 A "Reseller" is a person or entity that participates in Registrar's distribution channel for domain name registrations (a) pursuant to an agreement, arrangement or understanding with Registrar or (b) with Registrar's actual knowledge, provides some or all Registrar Services, including collecting registration data about Registered Name Holders, submitting that data to Registrar, or facilitating the entry of the registration agreement between the Registrar and the Registered Name Holder. All best, --Greg From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Wednesday, January 4, 2017 10:51 AM To: Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc@gmail.com> Cc: RDS PDP WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] New Year Challenge Hi Greg, we have hundreds of resellers who do not self-identify as such. They open end customer accounts and register domains for others, as their agents. No reseller agreements are in place in such cases as we have no way of knowing. Consider for example web-developers registering domains for their clients with a registrar. Or lawyers registering domains for their clients. I am using the term agent loosely in the sense of: "an entity doing things at the request of another entity - whatever their contractual relationship may be". Am 04.01.2017 um 16:31 schrieb Greg Shatan: Volker, What types of cases are you thinking of? And how do reseller agreements in these cases reflect that difference? In either case, are we talking about a true legal "principal-agent" relationship? (Defined as "A consensual relationship created by contract or by law where one party, the principal, grants authority for another party, the agent, to act on behalf of and under the control of the principal to deal with a third party. An agency relationship is fiduciary in nature [to the benefit of the principal], and the actions and words of an agent exchanged with a third party bind the principal."? Or are we using the term "agent" more loosely? Thanks for any light you can shed on the topic. Greg On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 5:49 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> wrote: This is not always the case. Many resellers are more like agents of the registrant than agents of the registrar. Best, Volker Am 03.01.2017 um 23:51 schrieb Alan Greenberg: How resellers work is relatively straight forward. They are agents working on behalf of a registrar. The handle the transaction and often ongoing contact with the registrant. Some registrars have no resellers, others some resellers, and some registrars only work through resellers and have no direct registratns. Of course, you may find that a reseller is really a subsidiary of the registrar (or in some other business relationship with them other than purely a reseller). Until relatively recently, ICANN took the position that since they had no contract with resellers, they had no control over what resellers did. In more recent RAAs, there are explicit clauses which require that if a registrar delegates anything to resellers, that they must ensure that the reseller fulfill any obligations that the registrar would have if they were dealing with the registrant directly. Past RAAs only covereed some of these requirements but my recollection is that the current RAA pretty much puts a registrant in the same situation regardless of whether they are dealing with the registrar directly or a reseller (I may be wrong about that, but that is my recollection). Of course, it is up to the registrar to ensure that these obligations are followed, or ICANN compliance to identify places where they may not be doing so. Is that any clearer? Alan At 03/01/2017 02:56 PM, Stephanie Perrin wrote: Happy New Year all! You are probably going to hate me because I am going to slow us down again. The problem is that we frame the discussion and thinking so very differently, depending on the expertise that we bring to this debate, that understanding the minutiae is very important. For instance on a recent call I questioned whether an individual needed to look at WHOIS to see who their registrar is, and was promptly corrected in this matter. Naive person that I am, I had never plumbed the depths of the reseller business, and I am not finding much useful information on the ICANN site that will help me do this (please help and point me to how this happens, what kind of contracts pass on obligations, how this is interpreted under DP law, why I cannot find my registrar on any of the lists of ICANN accredited registrars, consumer protection obligations under US law, how this works in the privacy proxy business etc.). IN my responses to the questionnaire, I have pointed out that it is the registrars and registries or their agents that collect/generate the Thin data. The proposed RDS, which at the moment is still protean, is not an entity, cannot collect etc, but is instead a display mechanism or automated disclosure instrument. So framing this in terms of collection is in my view quite misleading, unless I am totally misunderstanding the poll (always possible). Anyway if anyone can help me understand how resellers work I would be most grateful. It would probably also save us a pile of time if I understood it better, if that can possibly incentivize some brave soul..... cheers Stephanie Perrin On 2017-01-03 10:31, Gomes, Chuck wrote: A few weeks ago one of our WG members said something to me that I think might be a good challenge for many of us as we begin 2017: “I think people (including me) need to snap back to attention. I think we lost focus because of the incredible amount of lost traffic on minutiae that was so hard for non-ICANN insiders to follow.” If this applies to you, I hope you will respond. I can tell you that no one gets more frustrated with minutiae than me. I have just been at this for so long that I have learned minutiae for one person is important to someone else so I have realized that I have to have a lot of patience. Still, I often find myself wanting to push faster ahead and the leadership team has to pull me back. It has taken us about 11 months to get to where we are and it may seem like we have made very little progress but I am hopeful that we have laid some building blocks that will make our work ahead easier. We need to all keep in mind that the ICANN community has been grappling with Whois (RDS) issues for most of its 18-year existence with very minimal progress. If we are going to change that pattern, we will have to be patient and persistent. As we ended 2016 we reached the critical deliberation stage of Work Plan Phase 1. None of us should think that that will be easy or quick; it won’t be. But I am confident that we will start to see more concrete results of our efforts. I encourage all of you to start off this year by completing the poll that was distributed last week. You have until Friday of this week to complete it. Here is the link to the poll: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/V3CWZBL . Happy New Year. Chuck _______________________________________________ gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Microsoft-Exchange-Diagnostics: 1;DM5PR03MB2714;9:nXzNtMhlVADHVMCUzhbtlse3mo88vTzyiZsiXovSBQcJvIeZJqqbYfygQEKXJI1Jb2TWAZLGNZT1b67ZkyXF0tdFqQAPj/R2GhXZnBdRBTZwDZX6iLsKIpCHVqWblgxYGdLcB/AHJ+A14AzNIVSR6Y9UEF11dqyDAyI36juG2uEGJ4n4k9l5pxq0PZGfEqWrA71z6nrU/XKn5IcwFAzgNBCDOfUMoC2LTSezPrKFOhU2vNcf/RSQpYC55UI3psiCJuIDVzUsvg8pd6zR7Orekj436ttCVBFTEN3BwFkukFqa31QipQQKH+5057VmlSwkrmwPz+b5flppc5oPjBRXuXIpZMtIXTOdBosvmDowtYMlQhsGd9XzunoOBxUxKrjF2/5+fPqKDXIUiZSf1jDtR1QCuVX2ReWT/Ik4Da7va4Vj16VCsm8Dfid/mIFbMpEl X-Microsoft-Antispam-Mailbox-Delivery: ex:0;auth:0;dest:I;ENG:(20160514016)(520000050)(520002050)(750028); _______________________________________________ gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg _______________________________________________ gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901<tel:+49%206894%209396901> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851<tel:+49%206894%209396851> Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901<tel:+49%206894%209396901> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851<tel:+49%206894%209396851> Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. _______________________________________________ gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.

Thanks, Greg A. I'll stop typing the response I was working on. You covered it more clearly and succinctly than I could. Greg S. On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 11:07 AM, Victoria Sheckler <vsheckler@riaa.com> wrote:

+1

*From:* gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg- bounces@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Greg Aaron *Sent:* Wednesday, January 4, 2017 11:04 AM *To:* Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net>; Greg Shatan < gregshatanipc@gmail.com>

*Cc:* RDS PDP WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] New Year Challenge

Volker, those people are not “resellers” in industry parlance. They are “account holders” as per the RAA.

Well-defined, industry-standard terms exist for these things. Let’s use those terms whenever possible. Making up our own terms tends to make things more confusing than they need to be.

The RAA (https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/approved-with- specs-2013-09-17-en ) defines:

1.1 "Account Holder" means the person or entity that is paying for the Registered Name or otherwise controls the management of the registered name, when that person or entity is not the Registered Name Holder.

1.24 A "Reseller" is a person or entity that participates in Registrar's distribution channel for domain name registrations (a) pursuant to an agreement, arrangement or understanding with Registrar or (b) with Registrar's actual knowledge, provides some or all Registrar Services, including collecting registration data about Registered Name Holders, submitting that data to Registrar, or facilitating the entry of the registration agreement between the Registrar and the Registered Name Holder.

All best,

--Greg

*From:* gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg- bounces@icann.org <gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org>] *On Behalf Of *Volker Greimann *Sent:* Wednesday, January 4, 2017 10:51 AM *To:* Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc@gmail.com> *Cc:* RDS PDP WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] New Year Challenge

Hi Greg,

we have hundreds of resellers who do not self-identify as such. They open end customer accounts and register domains for others, as their agents. No reseller agreements are in place in such cases as we have no way of knowing. Consider for example web-developers registering domains for their clients with a registrar. Or lawyers registering domains for their clients.

I am using the term agent loosely in the sense of: "an entity doing things at the request of another entity - whatever their contractual relationship may be".

Am 04.01.2017 um 16:31 schrieb Greg Shatan:

Volker,

What types of cases are you thinking of? And how do reseller agreements in these cases reflect that difference?

In either case, are we talking about a true legal "principal-agent" relationship? (Defined as "A consensual relationship created by contract or by law where one party, the principal, grants authority for another party, the agent, to act on behalf of and under the control of the principal to deal with a third party. An agency relationship is fiduciary in nature [to the benefit of the principal], and the actions and words of an agent exchanged with a third party bind the principal."? Or are we using the term "agent" more loosely?

Thanks for any light you can shed on the topic.

Greg

On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 5:49 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> wrote:

This is not always the case. Many resellers are more like agents of the registrant than agents of the registrar.

Best,

Volker

Am 03.01.2017 um 23:51 schrieb Alan Greenberg:

How resellers work is relatively straight forward. They are agents working on behalf of a registrar. The handle the transaction and often ongoing contact with the registrant. Some registrars have no resellers, others some resellers, and some registrars only work through resellers and have no direct registratns. Of course, you may find that a reseller is really a subsidiary of the registrar (or in some other business relationship with them other than purely a reseller).

Until relatively recently, ICANN took the position that since they had no contract with resellers, they had no control over what resellers did. In more recent RAAs, there are explicit clauses which require that if a registrar delegates anything to resellers, that they must ensure that the reseller fulfill any obligations that the registrar would have if they were dealing with the registrant directly. Past RAAs only covereed some of these requirements but my recollection is that the current RAA pretty much puts a registrant in the same situation regardless of whether they are dealing with the registrar directly or a reseller (I may be wrong about that, but that is my recollection).

Of course, it is up to the registrar to ensure that these obligations are followed, or ICANN compliance to identify places where they may not be doing so.

Is that any clearer?

Alan

At 03/01/2017 02:56 PM, Stephanie Perrin wrote:

Happy New Year all! You are probably going to hate me because I am going to slow us down again. The problem is that we frame the discussion and thinking so very differently, depending on the expertise that we bring to this debate, that understanding the minutiae is very important. For instance on a recent call I questioned whether an individual needed to look at WHOIS to see who their registrar is, and was promptly corrected in this matter. Naive person that I am, I had never plumbed the depths of the reseller business, and I am not finding much useful information on the ICANN site that will help me do this (please help and point me to how this happens, what kind of contracts pass on obligations, how this is interpreted under DP law, why I cannot find my registrar on any of the lists of ICANN accredited registrars, consumer protection obligations under US law, how this works in the privacy proxy business etc.). IN my responses to the questionnaire, I have pointed out that it is the registrars and registries or their agents that collect/generate the Thin data. The proposed RDS, which at the moment is still protean, is not an entity, cannot collect etc, but is instead a display mechanism or automated disclosure instrument. So framing this in terms of collection is in my view quite misleading, unless I am totally misunderstanding the poll (always possible).

Anyway if anyone can help me understand how resellers work I would be most grateful. It would probably also save us a pile of time if I understood it better, if that can possibly incentivize some brave soul.....

cheers Stephanie Perrin

On 2017-01-03 10:31, Gomes, Chuck wrote:

A few weeks ago one of our WG members said something to me that I think might be a good challenge for many of us as we begin 2017: “I think people (including me) need to snap back to attention. I think we lost focus because of the incredible amount of lost traffic on minutiae that was so hard for non-ICANN insiders to follow.”

If this applies to you, I hope you will respond.

I can tell you that no one gets more frustrated with minutiae than me. I have just been at this for so long that I have learned minutiae for one person is important to someone else so I have realized that I have to have a lot of patience. Still, I often find myself wanting to push faster ahead and the leadership team has to pull me back.

It has taken us about 11 months to get to where we are and it may seem like we have made very little progress but I am hopeful that we have laid some building blocks that will make our work ahead easier. We need to all keep in mind that the ICANN community has been grappling with Whois (RDS) issues for most of its 18-year existence with very minimal progress. If we are going to change that pattern, we will have to be patient and persistent.

As we ended 2016 we reached the critical deliberation stage of Work Plan Phase 1. None of us should think that that will be easy or quick; it won’t be. But I am confident that we will start to see more concrete results of our efforts.

I encourage all of you to start off this year by completing the poll that was distributed last week. You have until Friday of this week to complete it. Here is the link to the poll: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/V3CWZBL .

Happy New Year.

Chuck

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Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.

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- Rechtsabteilung -

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Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 <+49%206894%209396901>

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--------------------------------------------

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Best regards,

Volker A. Greimann

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Key-Systems GmbH

Im Oberen Werk 1

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Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 <+49%206894%209396901>

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Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Volker A. Greimann

- Rechtsabteilung -

Key-Systems GmbH

Im Oberen Werk 1

66386 St. Ingbert

Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 <+49%206894%209396901>

Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 <+49%206894%209396851>

Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net

Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net

www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com

Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:

www.facebook.com/KeySystems

www.twitter.com/key_systems

Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin

Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken

Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534

Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP

www.keydrive.lu

Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.

--------------------------------------------

Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Best regards,

Volker A. Greimann

- legal department -

Key-Systems GmbH

Im Oberen Werk 1

66386 St. Ingbert

Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 <+49%206894%209396901>

Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 <+49%206894%209396851>

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Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:

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Volker, The entities you describe do not sound like resellers within the meaning of the RAA: 1.24 A "Reseller" is a person or entity that participates in Registrar's distribution channel for domain name registrations (a) pursuant to an agreement, arrangement or understanding with Registrar or (b) with Registrar's actual knowledge, provides some or all Registrar Services, including collecting registration data about Registered Name Holders, submitting that data to Registrar, or facilitating the entry of the registration agreement between the Registrar and the Registered Name Holder. [image001] Steven J. Metalitz | Partner, through his professional corporation T: 202.355.7902 | met@msk.com<mailto:met@msk.com> Mitchell Silberberg & Knupp LLP | www.msk.com<http://www.msk.com/> 1818 N Street NW, 8th Floor, Washington, DC 20036 THE INFORMATION CONTAINED IN THIS E-MAIL MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE PERSONAL AND CONFIDENTIAL USE OF THE DESIGNATED RECIPIENTS. THIS MESSAGE MAY BE AN ATTORNEY-CLIENT COMMUNICATION, AND AS SUCH IS PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL. IF THE READER OF THIS MESSAGE IS NOT AN INTENDED RECIPIENT, YOU ARE HEREBY NOTIFIED THAT ANY REVIEW, USE, DISSEMINATION, FORWARDING OR COPYING OF THIS MESSAGE IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED. PLEASE NOTIFY US IMMEDIATELY BY REPLY E-MAIL OR TELEPHONE, AND DELETE THE ORIGINAL MESSAGE AND ALL ATTACHMENTS FROM YOUR SYSTEM. THANK YOU. From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2017 10:51 AM To: Greg Shatan Cc: RDS PDP WG Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] New Year Challenge Hi Greg, we have hundreds of resellers who do not self-identify as such. They open end customer accounts and register domains for others, as their agents. No reseller agreements are in place in such cases as we have no way of knowing. Consider for example web-developers registering domains for their clients with a registrar. Or lawyers registering domains for their clients. I am using the term agent loosely in the sense of: "an entity doing things at the request of another entity - whatever their contractual relationship may be". Am 04.01.2017 um 16:31 schrieb Greg Shatan: Volker, What types of cases are you thinking of? And how do reseller agreements in these cases reflect that difference? In either case, are we talking about a true legal "principal-agent" relationship? (Defined as "A consensual relationship created by contract or by law where one party, the principal, grants authority for another party, the agent, to act on behalf of and under the control of the principal to deal with a third party. An agency relationship is fiduciary in nature [to the benefit of the principal], and the actions and words of an agent exchanged with a third party bind the principal."? Or are we using the term "agent" more loosely? Thanks for any light you can shed on the topic. Greg On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 5:49 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> wrote: This is not always the case. Many resellers are more like agents of the registrant than agents of the registrar. Best, Volker Am 03.01.2017 um 23:51 schrieb Alan Greenberg: How resellers work is relatively straight forward. They are agents working on behalf of a registrar. The handle the transaction and often ongoing contact with the registrant. Some registrars have no resellers, others some resellers, and some registrars only work through resellers and have no direct registratns. Of course, you may find that a reseller is really a subsidiary of the registrar (or in some other business relationship with them other than purely a reseller). Until relatively recently, ICANN took the position that since they had no contract with resellers, they had no control over what resellers did. In more recent RAAs, there are explicit clauses which require that if a registrar delegates anything to resellers, that they must ensure that the reseller fulfill any obligations that the registrar would have if they were dealing with the registrant directly. Past RAAs only covereed some of these requirements but my recollection is that the current RAA pretty much puts a registrant in the same situation regardless of whether they are dealing with the registrar directly or a reseller (I may be wrong about that, but that is my recollection). Of course, it is up to the registrar to ensure that these obligations are followed, or ICANN compliance to identify places where they may not be doing so. Is that any clearer? Alan At 03/01/2017 02:56 PM, Stephanie Perrin wrote: Happy New Year all! You are probably going to hate me because I am going to slow us down again. The problem is that we frame the discussion and thinking so very differently, depending on the expertise that we bring to this debate, that understanding the minutiae is very important. For instance on a recent call I questioned whether an individual needed to look at WHOIS to see who their registrar is, and was promptly corrected in this matter. Naive person that I am, I had never plumbed the depths of the reseller business, and I am not finding much useful information on the ICANN site that will help me do this (please help and point me to how this happens, what kind of contracts pass on obligations, how this is interpreted under DP law, why I cannot find my registrar on any of the lists of ICANN accredited registrars, consumer protection obligations under US law, how this works in the privacy proxy business etc.). IN my responses to the questionnaire, I have pointed out that it is the registrars and registries or their agents that collect/generate the Thin data. The proposed RDS, which at the moment is still protean, is not an entity, cannot collect etc, but is instead a display mechanism or automated disclosure instrument. So framing this in terms of collection is in my view quite misleading, unless I am totally misunderstanding the poll (always possible). Anyway if anyone can help me understand how resellers work I would be most grateful. It would probably also save us a pile of time if I understood it better, if that can possibly incentivize some brave soul..... cheers Stephanie Perrin On 2017-01-03 10:31, Gomes, Chuck wrote: A few weeks ago one of our WG members said something to me that I think might be a good challenge for many of us as we begin 2017: “I think people (including me) need to snap back to attention. I think we lost focus because of the incredible amount of lost traffic on minutiae that was so hard for non-ICANN insiders to follow.” If this applies to you, I hope you will respond. I can tell you that no one gets more frustrated with minutiae than me. I have just been at this for so long that I have learned minutiae for one person is important to someone else so I have realized that I have to have a lot of patience. Still, I often find myself wanting to push faster ahead and the leadership team has to pull me back. It has taken us about 11 months to get to where we are and it may seem like we have made very little progress but I am hopeful that we have laid some building blocks that will make our work ahead easier. We need to all keep in mind that the ICANN community has been grappling with Whois (RDS) issues for most of its 18-year existence with very minimal progress. If we are going to change that pattern, we will have to be patient and persistent. As we ended 2016 we reached the critical deliberation stage of Work Plan Phase 1. None of us should think that that will be easy or quick; it won’t be. But I am confident that we will start to see more concrete results of our efforts. I encourage all of you to start off this year by completing the poll that was distributed last week. You have until Friday of this week to complete it. Here is the link to the poll: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/V3CWZBL<https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/V3CWZBL> . Happy New Year. Chuck _______________________________________________ gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org> <https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Microsoft-Exchange-Diagnostics: 1;DM5PR03MB2714;9:nXzNtMhlVADHVMCUzhbtlse3mo88vTzyiZsiXovSBQcJvIeZJqqbYfygQEKXJI1Jb2TWAZLGNZT1b67ZkyXF0tdFqQAPj/R2GhXZnBdRBTZwDZX6iLsKIpCHVqWblgxYGdLcB/AHJ+A14AzNIVSR6Y9UEF11dqyDAyI36juG2uEGJ4n4k9l5pxq0PZGfEqWrA71z6nrU/XKn5IcwFAzgNBCDOfUMoC2LTSezPrKFOhU2vNcf/RSQpYC55UI3psiCJuIDVzUsvg8pd6zR7Orekj436ttCVBFTEN3BwFkukFqa31QipQQKH+5057VmlSwkrmwPz+b5flppc5oPjBRXuXIpZMtIXTOdBosvmDowtYMlQhsGd9XzunoOBxUxKrjF2/5+fPqKDXIUiZSf1jDtR1QCuVX2ReWT/Ik4Da7va4Vj16VCsm8Dfid/mIFbMpEl X-Microsoft-Antispam-Mailbox-Delivery: ex:0;auth:0;dest:I;ENG:(20160514016)(520000050)(520002050)(750028); _______________________________________________ gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg> _______________________________________________ gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg> -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901<tel:+49%206894%209396901> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851<tel:+49%206894%209396851> Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901<tel:+49%206894%209396901> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851<tel:+49%206894%209396851> Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. _______________________________________________ gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg<https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg> -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.

Accepting that the label can be used more broadly in common parlance, for purposes of this Working Group, it’s clearer to stick to the legal definition, which might answer some of Stephanie’s original questions. So for example, resellers under the RAA take on essentially all the obligations of registrars, including obligations regarding “collecting registration data about the Registered Name Holders” (included within the definition of “Registrar Services”). Section 3.12 of the 2013 RAA sets this out rather comprehensively: 1. 3.12 Obligations Related to Provision of Registrar Services by Third Parties. Registrar is responsible for the provision of Registrar Services for all Registered Names that Registrar sponsors being performed in compliance with this Agreement, regardless of whether the Registrar Services are provided by Registrar or a third party, including a Reseller. Registrar must enter into written agreements with all of its Resellers that enable Registrar to comply with and perform all of its obligations under this Agreement. In addition, Registrar must ensure that: 3.12.1 Its Resellers do not display the ICANN or ICANN-Accredited Registrar logo, or otherwise represent themselves as Accredited by ICANN, unless they have written permission from ICANN to do so. 3.12.2 Any registration agreement used by reseller shall include all registration agreement provisions and notices required by the ICANN Registrar Accreditation Agreement and any ICANN Consensus Policies, and shall identify the sponsoring registrar or provide a means for identifying the sponsoring registrar, such as a link to the InterNIC Whois lookup service. 3.12.3 Its Resellers identify the sponsoring registrar upon inquiry from the customer. 3.12.4 Its Resellers comply with any ICANN-adopted Specification or Policy that establishes a program for accreditation of individuals or entities who provide proxy and privacy registration services (a "Proxy Accreditation Program"). Among other features, the Proxy Accreditation Program may require that: (i) proxy and privacy registration services may only be provided in respect of domain name registrations by individuals or entities Accredited by ICANN pursuant to such Proxy Accreditation Program; and (ii) Registrar shall prohibit Resellers from knowingly accepting registrations from any provider of proxy and privacy registration services that is not Accredited by ICANN pursuant the Proxy Accreditation Program. Until such time as the Proxy Accreditation Program is established, Registrar shall require Resellers to comply with the Specification on Privacy and Proxy Registrations attached hereto. 3.12.5 Its Resellers' customers are provided with a link to an ICANN webpage detailing registrant educational information, as detailed in subsection 3.16 below. 3.12.6 In the event Registrar learns that a Reseller is causing Registrar to be in breach of any of the provisions of this Agreement, Registrar shall take reasonable steps to enforce its agreement with such Reseller so as to cure and prevent further instances of non-compliance. 3.12.7 Its Resellers shall publish on their website(s) and/or provide a link to the Registrants' Benefits and Responsibilities Specification attached hereto and shall not take any action inconsistent with the corresponding provisions of this Agreement or applicable law. Registrar shall use commercially reasonable efforts to enforce compliance with the provisions of the agreement between Registrar and any Reseller that relate to the provisions of Registrar Services. Additionally, under the Registrar Information Specification, registrars must provide to ICANN a list of all its known resellers, although it is not required to make this public. l [image001] Steven J. Metalitz | Partner, through his professional corporation T: 202.355.7902 | met@msk.com<mailto:met@msk.com> Mitchell Silberberg & Knupp LLP | www.msk.com<http://www.msk.com/> 1818 N Street NW, 8th Floor, Washington, DC 20036 THE INFORMATION CONTAINED IN THIS E-MAIL MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE PERSONAL AND CONFIDENTIAL USE OF THE DESIGNATED RECIPIENTS. THIS MESSAGE MAY BE AN ATTORNEY-CLIENT COMMUNICATION, AND AS SUCH IS PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL. IF THE READER OF THIS MESSAGE IS NOT AN INTENDED RECIPIENT, YOU ARE HEREBY NOTIFIED THAT ANY REVIEW, USE, DISSEMINATION, FORWARDING OR COPYING OF THIS MESSAGE IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED. PLEASE NOTIFY US IMMEDIATELY BY REPLY E-MAIL OR TELEPHONE, AND DELETE THE ORIGINAL MESSAGE AND ALL ATTACHMENTS FROM YOUR SYSTEM. THANK YOU. From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2017 11:27 AM To: Metalitz, Steven; Greg Shatan Cc: RDS PDP WG Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] New Year Challenge Hi Steven, while not reselling in the meaning of the RAA (I know the definition, I worked with ICANN to write it), they are still resellers in the broader term of the word, and in the eyes of many not that deep into the legal definition in the RAA. Best, Volker Am 04.01.2017 um 17:10 schrieb Metalitz, Steven: Volker, The entities you describe do not sound like resellers within the meaning of the RAA: 1.24 A "Reseller" is a person or entity that participates in Registrar's distribution channel for domain name registrations (a) pursuant to an agreement, arrangement or understanding with Registrar or (b) with Registrar's actual knowledge, provides some or all Registrar Services, including collecting registration data about Registered Name Holders, submitting that data to Registrar, or facilitating the entry of the registration agreement between the Registrar and the Registered Name Holder. [image001] Steven J. Metalitz | Partner, through his professional corporation T: 202.355.7902 | met@msk.com<mailto:met@msk.com> Mitchell Silberberg & KnuppLLP | www.msk.com<http://www.msk.com/> 1818 N Street NW, 8th Floor, Washington, DC 20036 THE INFORMATION CONTAINED IN THIS E-MAIL MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE PERSONAL AND CONFIDENTIAL USE OF THE DESIGNATED RECIPIENTS. THIS MESSAGE MAY BE AN ATTORNEY-CLIENT COMMUNICATION, AND AS SUCH IS PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL. IF THE READER OF THIS MESSAGE IS NOT AN INTENDED RECIPIENT, YOU ARE HEREBY NOTIFIED THAT ANY REVIEW, USE, DISSEMINATION, FORWARDING OR COPYING OF THIS MESSAGE IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED. PLEASE NOTIFY US IMMEDIATELY BY REPLY E-MAIL OR TELEPHONE, AND DELETE THE ORIGINAL MESSAGE AND ALL ATTACHMENTS FROM YOUR SYSTEM. THANK YOU. From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2017 10:51 AM To: Greg Shatan Cc: RDS PDP WG Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] New Year Challenge Hi Greg, we have hundreds of resellers who do not self-identify as such. They open end customer accounts and register domains for others, as their agents. No reseller agreements are in place in such cases as we have no way of knowing. Consider for example web-developers registering domains for their clients with a registrar. Or lawyers registering domains for their clients. I am using the term agent loosely in the sense of: "an entity doing things at the request of another entity - whatever their contractual relationship may be". Am 04.01.2017 um 16:31 schrieb Greg Shatan: Volker, What types of cases are you thinking of? And how do reseller agreements in these cases reflect that difference? In either case, are we talking about a true legal "principal-agent" relationship? (Defined as "A consensual relationship created by contract or by law where one party, the principal, grants authority for another party, the agent, to act on behalf of and under the control of the principal to deal with a third party. An agency relationship is fiduciary in nature [to the benefit of the principal], and the actions and words of an agent exchanged with a third party bind the principal."? Or are we using the term "agent" more loosely? Thanks for any light you can shed on the topic. Greg On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 5:49 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> wrote: This is not always the case. Many resellers are more like agents of the registrant than agents of the registrar. Best, Volker Am 03.01.2017 um 23:51 schrieb Alan Greenberg: How resellers work is relatively straight forward. They are agents working on behalf of a registrar. The handle the transaction and often ongoing contact with the registrant. Some registrars have no resellers, others some resellers, and some registrars only work through resellers and have no direct registratns. Of course, you may find that a reseller is really a subsidiary of the registrar (or in some other business relationship with them other than purely a reseller). Until relatively recently, ICANN took the position that since they had no contract with resellers, they had no control over what resellers did. In more recent RAAs, there are explicit clauses which require that if a registrar delegates anything to resellers, that they must ensure that the reseller fulfill any obligations that the registrar would have if they were dealing with the registrant directly. Past RAAs only covereed some of these requirements but my recollection is that the current RAA pretty much puts a registrant in the same situation regardless of whether they are dealing with the registrar directly or a reseller (I may be wrong about that, but that is my recollection). Of course, it is up to the registrar to ensure that these obligations are followed, or ICANN compliance to identify places where they may not be doing so. Is that any clearer? Alan At 03/01/2017 02:56 PM, Stephanie Perrin wrote: Happy New Year all! You are probably going to hate me because I am going to slow us down again. The problem is that we frame the discussion and thinking so very differently, depending on the expertise that we bring to this debate, that understanding the minutiae is very important. For instance on a recent call I questioned whether an individual needed to look at WHOIS to see who their registrar is, and was promptly corrected in this matter. Naive person that I am, I had never plumbed the depths of the reseller business, and I am not finding much useful information on the ICANN site that will help me do this (please help and point me to how this happens, what kind of contracts pass on obligations, how this is interpreted under DP law, why I cannot find my registrar on any of the lists of ICANN accredited registrars, consumer protection obligations under US law, how this works in the privacy proxy business etc.). IN my responses to the questionnaire, I have pointed out that it is the registrars and registries or their agents that collect/generate the Thin data. The proposed RDS, which at the moment is still protean, is not an entity, cannot collect etc, but is instead a display mechanism or automated disclosure instrument. So framing this in terms of collection is in my view quite misleading, unless I am totally misunderstanding the poll (always possible). Anyway if anyone can help me understand how resellers work I would be most grateful. It would probably also save us a pile of time if I understood it better, if that can possibly incentivize some brave soul..... cheers Stephanie Perrin On 2017-01-03 10:31, Gomes, Chuck wrote: A few weeks ago one of our WG members said something to me that I think might be a good challenge for many of us as we begin 2017: “I think people (including me) need to snap back to attention. I think we lost focus because of the incredible amount of lost traffic on minutiae that was so hard for non-ICANN insiders to follow.” If this applies to you, I hope you will respond. I can tell you that no one gets more frustrated with minutiae than me. I have just been at this for so long that I have learned minutiae for one person is important to someone else so I have realized that I have to have a lot of patience. Still, I often find myself wanting to push faster ahead and the leadership team has to pull me back. It has taken us about 11 months to get to where we are and it may seem like we have made very little progress but I am hopeful that we have laid some building blocks that will make our work ahead easier. We need to all keep in mind that the ICANN community has been grappling with Whois (RDS) issues for most of its 18-year existence with very minimal progress. If we are going to change that pattern, we will have to be patient and persistent. As we ended 2016 we reached the critical deliberation stage of Work Plan Phase 1. None of us should think that that will be easy or quick; it won’t be. But I am confident that we will start to see more concrete results of our efforts. I encourage all of you to start off this year by completing the poll that was distributed last week. You have until Friday of this week to complete it. Here is the link to the poll: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/V3CWZBL<https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/V3CWZBL> . Happy New Year. 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On Wed, Jan 04, 2017 at 12:54:57PM -0500, Stephanie Perrin wrote:

is also becoming crystal clear that the "dumb" user may not be dealing with someone who takes his/her fiduciary responsibilities seriously, particularly with respect to the retention of the domain. If I let someone register my small business name for me, would I necessarily know that it was registered in a resellers name? IF the reseller gets an offer, even a modest one, to buy the name, how confident can I be that my registrar/reseller/hosting company will not let it go to the higher bidder?

Presumably, this is what the contracts you had with your vendor are for. It is certainly not within ICANN's mission to have it go around enforcing every contractual relationship anyone ever undertakes with respect to domain names, and I do not want to live in the world where that _does_ become part of ICANN's mission. But in any case, all of this appears to illustrate pretty convincingly why being able to look up the actual party who actually registered a domain is at least _prima facie_ pretty useful for network operations. Right? Best regards, A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com

Since we were talking about entities "who do not self-identify as" resellers, who aren't resellers within the meaning of the term in the RAA, and who almost certainly don't carry out most of the functions of resellers set forth in Section 3.12 of the RAA, it's confusing at best to call all of these intermediaries "resellers." I doubt that big resellers such as ISPs and hosting providers will turn into "gray market account holders." Domain name reselling is just an integrated part of their overall online offering. I don't expect that this type of reseller would register your domain in their own name (but I could be wrong, of course). I think this is much more common with your friendly neighborhood web developer, advertising/marketing agency, etc., who then registers the domain name with their registrar (often as if they were an end user). (I run across this quite often with smaller clients, and I try to fix it as quickly as possible.) Greg S. On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 1:22 PM, Andrew Sullivan <ajs@anvilwalrusden.com> wrote:

On Wed, Jan 04, 2017 at 12:54:57PM -0500, Stephanie Perrin wrote:

...

is also becoming crystal clear that the "dumb" user may not be dealing with someone who takes his/her fiduciary responsibilities seriously, particularly with respect to the retention of the domain. If I let someone register my small business name for me, would I necessarily know that it was registered in a resellers name? IF the reseller gets an offer, even a modest one, to buy the name, how confident can I be that my registrar/reseller/hosting company will not let it go to the higher bidder?

Presumably, this is what the contracts you had with your vendor are for. It is certainly not within ICANN's mission to have it go around enforcing every contractual relationship anyone ever undertakes with respect to domain names, and I do not want to live in the world where that _does_ become part of ICANN's mission.

But in any case, all of this appears to illustrate pretty convincingly why being able to look up the actual party who actually registered a domain is at least _prima facie_ pretty useful for network operations. Right?

Best regards,

A

-- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com _______________________________________________ gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg

Andrew, I agree 100% with the key point. Greg On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 2:25 PM, Andrew Sullivan <ajs@anvilwalrusden.com> wrote:

On Wed, Jan 04, 2017 at 01:44:50PM -0500, Greg Shatan wrote:

...

set forth in Section 3.12 of the RAA, it's confusing at best to call all of these intermediaries "resellers."

Sure. We can call them Sparky the Wonder Dogs, if we like; but the key point is that it is useful -- for network operations, for technical support people, and for lawyers who realise that their clients' domain names are registered improperly -- to be able to look up this minimal information about who registered a domain name, and to do so without formal credentials (because _ex hypothesi_ here the "real" domain name holder doesn't have a direct relationship with the registrar or, in some of these cases, isn't actually the registrant).

The question started off as whether there was a legit use case for this, and I think we've demonstrated through this discussion that there is.

A

-- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com _______________________________________________ gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg

Otieno, Am I correct that in the situation you describe you are literally the registrant with the registrar and there is no reseller relationship from an ICANN perspective? Any relationship you have with your client is strictly between you and the client. Chuck From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of O. Antony Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2017 11:27 AM To: Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc@gmail.com>; Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> Cc: RDS PDP WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] New Year Challenge This is the real situation as it is occurring in the domain market. I personally do register domain on behalf of my clients and in most cases, the whois records displays my data as the domain registrant. Most ccTLD registrars prefer this model since it boosts consumption of the ccTLDs. Otieno Antony, Secretary | Internet Society Kenya Chapter Fax: 086 265 5186 | Mobile: +254 20 4402979 | Skype: otieno.antony Profile: https<https://about.me/otienoantony>://about.me/<https://about.me/otienoantony>otienoantony<https://about.me/otienoantony> On 4 Jan 2017 18:51, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> wrote: Hi Greg, we have hundreds of resellers who do not self-identify as such. They open end customer accounts and register domains for others, as their agents. No reseller agreements are in place in such cases as we have no way of knowing. Consider for example web-developers registering domains for their clients with a registrar. Or lawyers registering domains for their clients. I am using the term agent loosely in the sense of: "an entity doing things at the request of another entity - whatever their contractual relationship may be". Am 04.01.2017 um 16:31 schrieb Greg Shatan: Volker, What types of cases are you thinking of? And how do reseller agreements in these cases reflect that difference? In either case, are we talking about a true legal "principal-agent" relationship? (Defined as "A consensual relationship created by contract or by law where one party, the principal, grants authority for another party, the agent, to act on behalf of and under the control of the principal to deal with a third party. An agency relationship is fiduciary in nature [to the benefit of the principal], and the actions and words of an agent exchanged with a third party bind the principal."? Or are we using the term "agent" more loosely? Thanks for any light you can shed on the topic. Greg On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 5:49 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>> wrote: This is not always the case. Many resellers are more like agents of the registrant than agents of the registrar. Best, Volker Am 03.01.2017 um 23:51 schrieb Alan Greenberg: How resellers work is relatively straight forward. They are agents working on behalf of a registrar. The handle the transaction and often ongoing contact with the registrant. Some registrars have no resellers, others some resellers, and some registrars only work through resellers and have no direct registratns. Of course, you may find that a reseller is really a subsidiary of the registrar (or in some other business relationship with them other than purely a reseller). Until relatively recently, ICANN took the position that since they had no contract with resellers, they had no control over what resellers did. In more recent RAAs, there are explicit clauses which require that if a registrar delegates anything to resellers, that they must ensure that the reseller fulfill any obligations that the registrar would have if they were dealing with the registrant directly. Past RAAs only covereed some of these requirements but my recollection is that the current RAA pretty much puts a registrant in the same situation regardless of whether they are dealing with the registrar directly or a reseller (I may be wrong about that, but that is my recollection). Of course, it is up to the registrar to ensure that these obligations are followed, or ICANN compliance to identify places where they may not be doing so. Is that any clearer? Alan At 03/01/2017 02:56 PM, Stephanie Perrin wrote: Happy New Year all! You are probably going to hate me because I am going to slow us down again. The problem is that we frame the discussion and thinking so very differently, depending on the expertise that we bring to this debate, that understanding the minutiae is very important. For instance on a recent call I questioned whether an individual needed to look at WHOIS to see who their registrar is, and was promptly corrected in this matter. Naive person that I am, I had never plumbed the depths of the reseller business, and I am not finding much useful information on the ICANN site that will help me do this (please help and point me to how this happens, what kind of contracts pass on obligations, how this is interpreted under DP law, why I cannot find my registrar on any of the lists of ICANN accredited registrars, consumer protection obligations under US law, how this works in the privacy proxy business etc.). IN my responses to the questionnaire, I have pointed out that it is the registrars and registries or their agents that collect/generate the Thin data. The proposed RDS, which at the moment is still protean, is not an entity, cannot collect etc, but is instead a display mechanism or automated disclosure instrument. So framing this in terms of collection is in my view quite misleading, unless I am totally misunderstanding the poll (always possible). Anyway if anyone can help me understand how resellers work I would be most grateful. It would probably also save us a pile of time if I understood it better, if that can possibly incentivize some brave soul..... cheers Stephanie Perrin On 2017-01-03 10:31, Gomes, Chuck wrote: A few weeks ago one of our WG members said something to me that I think might be a good challenge for many of us as we begin 2017: "I think people (including me) need to snap back to attention. I think we lost focus because of the incredible amount of lost traffic on minutiae that was so hard for non-ICANN insiders to follow." If this applies to you, I hope you will respond. I can tell you that no one gets more frustrated with minutiae than me. I have just been at this for so long that I have learned minutiae for one person is important to someone else so I have realized that I have to have a lot of patience. Still, I often find myself wanting to push faster ahead and the leadership team has to pull me back. It has taken us about 11 months to get to where we are and it may seem like we have made very little progress but I am hopeful that we have laid some building blocks that will make our work ahead easier. We need to all keep in mind that the ICANN community has been grappling with Whois (RDS) issues for most of its 18-year existence with very minimal progress. If we are going to change that pattern, we will have to be patient and persistent. As we ended 2016 we reached the critical deliberation stage of Work Plan Phase 1. None of us should think that that will be easy or quick; it won't be. But I am confident that we will start to see more concrete results of our efforts. I encourage all of you to start off this year by completing the poll that was distributed last week. You have until Friday of this week to complete it. Here is the link to the poll: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/V3CWZBL . Happy New Year. Chuck _______________________________________________ gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org> <https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Microsoft-Exchange-Diagnostics: 1;DM5PR03MB2714;9:nXzNtMhlVADHVMCUzhbtlse3mo88vTzyiZsiXovSBQcJvIeZJqqbYfygQEKXJI1Jb2TWAZLGNZT1b67ZkyXF0tdFqQAPj/R2GhXZnBdRBTZwDZX6iLsKIpCHVqWblgxYGdLcB/AHJ+A14AzNIVSR6Y9UEF11dqyDAyI36juG2uEGJ4n4k9l5pxq0PZGfEqWrA71z6nrU/XKn5IcwFAzgNBCDOfUMoC2LTSezPrKFOhU2vNcf/RSQpYC55UI3psiCJuIDVzUsvg8pd6zR7Orekj436ttCVBFTEN3BwFkukFqa31QipQQKH+5057VmlSwkrmwPz+b5flppc5oPjBRXuXIpZMtIXTOdBosvmDowtYMlQhsGd9XzunoOBxUxKrjF2/5+fPqKDXIUiZSf1jDtR1QCuVX2ReWT/Ik4Da7va4Vj16VCsm8Dfid/mIFbMpEl X-Microsoft-Antispam-Mailbox-Delivery: ex:0;auth:0;dest:I;ENG:(20160514016)(520000050)(520002050)(750028); _______________________________________________ gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg _______________________________________________ gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901<tel:+49%206894%209396901> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851<tel:+49%206894%209396851> Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. 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Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901<tel:+49%206894%209396901> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851<tel:+49%206894%209396851> Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. 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Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. 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