Dear All, Please find the attendance of the call attached to this email and the MP3 recording below for the Next-Gen RDS PDP Working group call held on Tuesday, 12 July 2016 at 16:00 UTC. Mp3: http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-nextgen-rds-12jul16-en.mp3<http://mailer.samanage.com/wf/click?upn=NrFWbrBstcrPWP369qgbqlXiSKeL20xnUXzI03ZqpsvgRhF8anYZT-2Fu85DJG3jGxxVskBbkcuarDuZdKKIqCz2SI5RKVwB-2FAeG-2FNvnN8dqw-3D_nEX-2FaOijqgcJlSz5SkmueJu3tRbmaDiuX89gT35tStEeSHP9whdoceObpMxYsFLQddiMZpQjIv8dk6BsBGSJXH7VWN4SGLCJgbGKCk6E-2FTErjF4OKNQt65Dk9NF54IJ9kQpmDNySj7bbNz9G4dXi5BgbCZotTx8KNfyeB0z00f8KsMfETeTNKd7vy2kKI7tttQUIwid4NAhxXgT3nZYwmtT3AVeDpcusRHI2LLiBY7S1MMbxsXLgV-2FzVvzHwv4H6JIHHjRjy-2FGpRrvjTr-2BxzrWgh3YQzJsjpOERZ7rDUIKNAOJJMAh7CpahohjC5PVyFcA92Lcli46YMciOYhS0GZ62YjGzD-2BPVTHGRr6F8CCFeYChjjC4me2sWPp4NBtbCb-2F3AO7QIrVbQLqUSaNDIrcRrXNKdkchzlyZabS6f3GR8ptf2L3z4gzM4Am1rmyV1FxJb4GWTCoqNqqTnYd7kiIDi-2B1FGk95OjsTItpYFInVyt32S-2BMqqXZvpavjVSGtH4> The recordings and transcriptions of the calls are posted on the GNSO Master Calendar page: http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar<http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar#nov> ** Please let me know if your name has been left off the list ** Mailing list archives:http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-rds-pdp-wg/ Wiki page: https://community.icann.org/x/ix2OAw Thank you. Kind regards, Terri Agnew ------------------------------- Adobe Connect chat transcript for Tuesday, 12 July 2016 Terri Agnew:Dear all, welcome to the RDS PDP WG call on Tuesday, 12 July 2016 at 16:00 UTC Terri Agnew:meeting agenda wiki page: https://community.icann.org/x/4wKbAw Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):Hello Terri, Volker Daniel K. Nanghaka:Hello Everyone Daniel K. Nanghaka:Welcome back from Helsinki Ayden Férdeline:Hello all Vlad Dinculescu:Hi All Andrew Sullivan:@Terri: note that, AFAICT, the "hover over" approach doesn't work on the Mac under Flash in Safari. Or at least, it doesn't here :) Nathalie Coupet:Hi Terri Agnew:@Andrew do you see the microphone on top tool bar? Andrew Sullivan:Isn't it great that we have the Internet so that we can work easily while we are on vacation? :) Andrew Sullivan:@Terri: yeah, the mic at the top works fine. It was just FYI Richard Padilla:Hi all Volker Greimann:Sorry I missed it: I must update my SOI: I am now also a board member at Nominet, a new gTLD registry and registry service provider Ayden Férdeline:I can't hear you David marksv [MSFT]:very soft Fabricio Vayra:is it just me, or does audio keep dropping? Terri Agnew:@David, you are difficult to hear, please let me know if a dial out is needed Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):very soft ... maybe typing in the chat window? Jim Galvin (Afilias):cant hear David David Cake:just wanted to sat David Cake:say James has been having travel crises Terri Agnew:@David, I will add James Gannon to the list of apologies Daniel K. Nanghaka:The problem statement was meant to be reviewed in a joint meeting David Cake:flights cancelled, trapped in airports, etc, might be on a plane currently Daniel K. Nanghaka:This was to come up with a final problem statement Ayden Férdeline:the draft problem statement is here - https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/gnso-rds-pbstatement-0 - but it is obviously a work in progress still Daniel K. Nanghaka:Yes, that is right Lisa Phifer:@Daniel, Ayden - do you expect to have a draft for the WG to review by next week's call? Daniel K. Nanghaka:Yes, sure we can work towards having a draft by next week Stephanie Perrin:My apologies for being late folks. Daniel K. Nanghaka:The progress is not bad just waiting for feedback from other members Ayden Férdeline:If someone has an example of a good problem statement, perhaps from another working group, I would find it useful to read. Daniel K. Nanghaka:I agree with you Ayden Ayden Férdeline:We all have different ideas around what a problem statement should look like. If there was a model we could turn to, that would be really useful. Farell FOLLY:Hello All, apologies for being late... Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):we might have burnout ... even after 5 days it happens Lisa Phifer:@Ayden, Daniel - PDP Issue Reports and the WG Charter usually serve that purpose for PDP WGs; I am not aware of a PDP WG that drafted a separate problem statement but will ask around Ayden Férdeline:Thanks @Lisa Stephanie Perrin:Are we allowed to add a day? Seems like the only possibility that makes sense. Need funding for the overnight though, if we are going to get a good turnout Ayden Férdeline:I too like the idea of having two WG sessions in Hyderabad. marksv [MSFT]:UASG usually meets half-day (or even all-day) on Sunday Alex Deacon:regarding the problem statement I plan to spend some cycles this week to contribute my thoughts. We should strive to be as succinct as possible. i.e. 1 paragraph max. Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):if we have 2 wG meetings ... is it possible to have 2or 3 days between? Nathalie Coupet:It will be almost virtually impossible to participate remotely. Too bad. Marika Konings:@Stephanie - if the meeting is taking place on day 1, hotel should already be covered for funded travellers Lisa Phifer:@Nathalie, remote participation via Adobe Connect and audio will be provided Stephanie Perrin:Thanks Marika. My concern, of course, is that many of us are also on Council so there is potential for conflicts, but not if day one is reserved for our purposes. Nathalie Coupet:Yes, but the time will make it impossible to participate. steve metalitz:IMHO a 7-day meeting is already too long and any add-ons should be resisted Daniel K. Nanghaka:I think it is a good idea to consider Conflict of Interest Marika Konings:@Greg - yes that is correct (it would be the Sat) Marika Konings:but there wouldn't be any GNSO sessions Alex Deacon:I am also not infavor of adding an additional day to an already very long meeting. Andrew Sullivan:FWIW, the IETF meeting is butted up right after the ICANN meeting, so anyone going to the IETF meeting (I might be the only one) is probably not going to be excited by adding another day to the travel Ayden Férdeline:I am inclined to agree with @Steve... given ICANN57 begins on a Thursday as it is and ends the following Wednesday, it is already a two week committment for me. Not sure if I can make it for that reason alone. Stephanie Perrin:Let the record show I agree with Greg (doesn't happen that often :-) Andrew Sullivan:(We appear to be an illustration of the principle that the agenda expands to fill the available meeting time :)) Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):having 2 meetings during the week might be not a good idea - no time to do homework between sessions :) Ayden Férdeline:If we can 'bank' the extra day for ICANN58, which is slightly shorter, that might work better for some. But I suppose it also depends on where we are with our work plan :) Marika Konings:it would be unlikely that there would be F2F WG meetings in parallel as we are aware of the significant overlap in membership between some of the PDP WGs Stuart Clark:Realise it is probably very hard to do, but wanted to raise it anyway :-) VAIBHAV AGGARWAL:Also that the First Day in Icann 57 there will be Government Representatives including the Ministers attending the function and there is a possibility of a pleanary Session / Talk VAIBHAV AGGARWAL:by the Govt Reps Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):is it going to be an official opening ceremony during the day 1? (with reps of ministries and government) VAIBHAV AGGARWAL:Yes Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):then we should avoid that particular timeslot + 15 minutes after that VAIBHAV AGGARWAL:I am in discussions right now but we may have the Prime Minister Open it for us Marika Konings:According to the ICANN schedule, this is currently foreseen for day 3 (opening ceremony) VAIBHAV AGGARWAL:if he has time Stephanie Perrin:I am still trying to make a comment on the phase 1 and 2 reports VAIBHAV AGGARWAL::-) Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):@VAIBHAV I think it is impotant to have ICANN and the persons who invite Gov. reps to think in the same terms (like day 1 = 3rd OCT e.t.c) Ankur Raheja:Thanks for the update Mr Aggarwal Ankur Raheja:Its 3rd November Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):even more :) Marika Konings:but undoubtedly further discussions and co-ordination will need to take place with regards to the schedule. The GNSO has started to work on its schedule, but that will definitely need to be reviewed in conjunction with the plans of others including any general sessions that are taking place. VAIBHAV AGGARWAL:@Maxim Sorry Pardon me for the lack of understanding of your comment here but can u please rephrase Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):Could we request to use Old style schedule? In Finland it was impossible to use the webpage of the schedule Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):@VAIBHAV usually ICANN meeting starts for some of us 2 days in advance (GNSO things e.t.c) and opening ceremony was on monday (3rd day). so it is better to use dates in conversations (at least mention date and day of the week) Terri Agnew:@Maxim, on the web page schedule you could change it to grid style if that helps Ayden Férdeline:I am largely in agreement with @Stephanie, but I do think it would be useful if we made an adjustment to steps 1 and 2 to separate each of the fundamental questions set out in the working group charter. If we consider each question individually, I believe it will be easier for others to feed their thoughts back to us. VAIBHAV AGGARWAL:@Maxim - Sure. But I am mentioning Day 1 already. NM. Lets wait for Marika till next week to come back with an update. VAIBHAV AGGARWAL:For all we know it is speculation Richard Padilla:Having some internet issues going to reboot and come back keep droping connection for some reason Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):@Terri - it did not work ... full grid with scalable contents was not available ... some coding issues VAIBHAV AGGARWAL:@Teri Thnx Ayden Férdeline:To expand upon my comments above - a more incremental approach, in steps 1 and 2, would allow us to more thoroughly and fairly consider each of the fundamental questions set out in the working group charter. And it would be much easier for others, who are not following the working group's activities as closely as we all are, to comment in small bites. Marika Konings:@Ayden - we have heard complaints in the past as well about asking too often for input as some find that more difficult to manage than having a more complete picture to comment on. I guess it is all about finding the right balance :-) Scott Hollenbeck (Verisign):RDAP can be extended using "normal" IETF processes. Could be time measured in months. Andrew Sullivan:Along with what Scott said, I'll note that it's not at all clear that any extensions are needed Chuck Gomes:I am back in Adobe but please proceed Andrew Sullivan:also, unlike the way whois parsing works, adding stuff that a client doesn't recognise to an RDAP response does not harm anyone Andrew Sullivan:(the protocol is designed specifically to tolerate that.) Nathalie Coupet:Thank you. So interesting Ayden Férdeline:Do we not have a responsibility to consider how the RDS could be misused too? What if, say, a sniper was to decide to target an online business who does not list their address on their webpage, and used the RDS to determine the address of their building? (Obviously this is an extreme example.) While this would not be an intended use of the RDS, but if we have a system which can be misused by malicious persons, aren't we negligent...? Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):desing of the system itself might be a subject of locla legislation ideas ... not just scenarios of use Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):*design marksv [MSFT]:+1 Alex Deacon:@ayden - a mis-use case I suppose. Andrew Sullivan:@Maxim: if there are legislators who start specifying how a system is implemented instead of what things it needs to achieve, then those locales will get the Internet they deserve marksv [MSFT]:We have a responsibility to prevent misuse. That's a "Negative use case" as Rod describes it. marksv [MSFT]:@Andrew lol Daniel K. Nanghaka:I think we need to review both Use Cases and MisUse Cases Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):all scenarios which were not designed - better to keep in prohibited area (until further formal developments) Daniel K. Nanghaka:Could the constraints also be termed as Misuse cases Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):@Andrew ... sometimes the location of the DB is an issue Ayden Férdeline:No, sorry, I disagree @Maxim. I do not want misuse cases to form part of the non-goals... Andrew Sullivan:@Maxim: I think the constraint is usually where particular data may be Stephanie Perrin:is it just me or is Rod breaking up a lot? Andrew Sullivan:not where "the database" is Andrew Sullivan:those are different questions, particularly in a distributed system Marika Konings:@Stephanie - it may be your line. Rod comes across loud and clear on this side. marksv [MSFT]:I hear Rod OK, sorry Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):@Andrew - I am not saying it is one issue ... it is two issues Stephanie Perrin:NO matter how much you pay, Internet signal is not the best in rural areas... Andrew Sullivan:I think I'm claiming that the first issue isn't an issue at all unless we select a centralized-database design that is the wrong answer to any problem on the Internet Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):@Andrew +1 marksv [MSFT]:At the end of the excercise, I believe we will have lists of (a) desired behaviors to enable (b) undesirable behavior to actively prevent (c) "nice to have" behavior that we can postpone or cut entirely from scope Alex Deacon:@andrew - isn't selecting a database design an implementation issue? Not sure we should be making those decisions in this PDP. Better to focus on the policy...and leave the implementation/design to other experts. Andrew Sullivan:@Alex: it would be if people didn't keep suggesting a Giant Centralized Database Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):@Alex I think the idea of the design comes before the implementation and might cause significant issues with GAC Andrew Sullivan:I continue to believe that too much of this effort is poisoned by the whois-the-protocol thinking. For instance, the consultation asks whether we can "fix up" whois. Stephanie Perrin: The policy must be influenced by technical realities, which is why this whole process is iterative. Lisa Phifer:@Maxim, phase 3 of this PDP's charter allows for this WG to offer implementation guidance. However, the WG can also define requirements on system model in phase 1, and related policies in phase 2. Alex Deacon:@maxim - yes, but both design and implementaion comes after policy development. Andrew Sullivan:The answer to that is, "No." Th IETF has said so repeatedly, and we should stop asking questions that have been answered by those competent in the technology and move on. Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):Scenario#1 is going to be used a lot for social engineering Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):Do we suggest behavioural patterns collection for purposes of refining the system in the future? Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):anonymized one Fabricio Vayra:@ Andrew - Very well stated! Fabricio Vayra:+1 Mark Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):+1 Mark Andrew Sullivan:@Mark: paper and fax machines -- well, mail and mimeograph machines -- is in fact how we got NICNAME/WHOIS :) VAIBHAV AGGARWAL:+2 Mark Alex Deacon:Its not our task to design the system also.... VAIBHAV AGGARWAL:Correct - So If we dont recomend then there is no System !!! Beth Allegretti:Hi all - I've been on audio but I'm finally able to get in the Adobe chat. VAIBHAV AGGARWAL:welcome Beth - Suggestion - Be On Audio for Audio but be in the Room for the rest :-) Lisa Phifer:@Stephanie, that counter example was deleted since that approach didn't prove useful Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):it will lead to matrix of compatibility between jurisdictions/roles/allowed use Stephanie Perrin:Oh I assumed that was still there since it is still up on the screeen. Greg Shatan:The wonders of marginal comments in track changes -- the overflow from the deletion became an "end note".... Greg Shatan:Thus sowing confusion. Greg Shatan:Or I should say "marginal deletions". marksv [MSFT]:I vote to support as proposed Fabricio Vayra:I support as well. Greg Shatan:I tend to use "inline deletions" but the marginal deletions do make the actual text easier to read (subject to what just happened here...). Marc Anderson:I need to drop off. Thank you everyone Farell FOLLY:+1 @Greg Fabricio Vayra:Lisa - happy to volunteer for drafting use cases Nathalie Coupet:I also volunteer Ayden Férdeline:I would like to be involved in identifying mis-use cases. Stephanie Perrin:Are there not existing use cases from the EWG? NOt endorsing, just avoiding new work Fabricio Vayra:+1 Stephanie. Happy to start with EWG examples Alex Deacon:suggest we start with EWG use cases and go from there. Fabricio Vayra:+1 Alex. If nothing else, good for examples for format Nathalie Coupet:+1 Susan Prosser:+1 Andrew Sullivan:Have to drop -- another meeting looming Andrew Sullivan:bye all Nathalie Coupet:bye Nathalie Coupet:Thank you, Chuck Fabricio Vayra:Thanks all! Sara Bockey:Thanks all Ankur Raheja:Thanks marksv [MSFT]:This was a valuable and useful meeting for me - thanks all! Stephanie Perrin:Have a great vacation CHuck! VAIBHAV AGGARWAL:Have a Good One Guys Susan Prosser:thanks all Ayden Férdeline:I thought per the work plan we were going to consider purpose, and then use cases? VAIBHAV AGGARWAL:Plan a Vacation in INdia around the Icann 57-Let me know Vlad Dinculescu:Thanks all Maxim Alzoba (FAITID):bye all VAIBHAV AGGARWAL::-) Tapani Tarvainen:Bye all